The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Rodney Jerkins & Jon Keith On Songwriters Hall of Fame, Michael Jackson, Music Industry Shift +More

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

Today on The Breakfast Club, Rodney Jerkins & Jon Keith On Songwriters Hall of Fame, Michael Jackson, Music Industry Shift. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got some special guests in the building. That's right. We got the OG, the icon, the legend, Rodney Jerkins celebrating 30 years of Dark Child. He's inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame. That's big. Congratulations.

And he also brought his new artist, John Keith. How you feeling, first and foremost? I'm good, bro. I'm good. You good? John Keith, no pressure, but Rodney has sold over 500 million records worldwide. He's worked with Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, Beyoncé, Brandy, Justin Bieber,

Cilla Sam Smith, just to name a few. So no pressure. no pressure, okay? Easy work, easy work. So how you feeling first and foremost? We gotta get to, you know, I like to bring, when we have icons and legends like you, I like to start from the beginning. Now you, from Atlantic City?

Yes, sir. From Atlantic City. And how did you get into music? What made you say, I wanna be a producer? And then being from Atlantic City, anybody from Atlantic City will tell you, it's very difficult to get out there. How did you get out there where people

started hearing your beats and you started selling some stuff? My mom was a housekeeper. So she would go and she would take other people's houses and she would hear these little kids playing piano or being taught. She was like, I need this guy to teach my son. So I'm five years old, I didn't wanna play the piano.

Be honest, but my dad had a house rule. You gotta play piano to live under this roof. All our siblings play, we all play. I took the lessons and probably when I was about 10, 11, I discovered, like I wanted to be a producer. I heard Michael Jackson's album. And then I started, you know, back in the day, you read the credits.

Teddy Rowley was someone that I really admired. I saw Teddy Rowley on a lot of credits. And I'm like, no know back in the day you read the credits. Yeah, of course. Teddy Raleigh was someone that I really admired. I saw Teddy Raleigh on a lot of credits and I'm like, oh I want to do this. I need to do this. So back in the day there was a magazine called Black Beat. Yeah, absolutely. And I saw an interview and it had like all the top producers, Pete Rock, you know everybody. And it was like we use the MPC to make the beats.

MPC 60 back then, right? MPC 60. And I was like, we use the MPC to make the beats. MPC 60 back then, right? MPC 60. And I was like, I need this, I need this. Can't afford that. My dad borrowed $1,200 off his life insurance. Got the MPC for me. And we gone. Random question.

How was it growing up in Atlantic City? Cause I love Atlantic City because my daughter does a lot of cheerleading competitions. And for some reason, when I go out there, I justleading competitions, and for some reason when I go out there, I just get a good peace of mind. I gotta go out there and write and all types of stuff. How was it growing up there as a child? It was hard because there was no outlet.

There was no studios there, there was no outlet for music, so I had to get on New Jersey Transit, taking that two and a half hour bus ride pretty much every other day just to try to get put on. Wow, to the up? But yeah, but let me tell you, I got discovered. I got discovered by Teddy Riley at the Impact Convention. Where was that at?

Lang City. Wow, break that down. So he heard a demo that I produced. He wasn't really into the guy singing the demo, but he was like, yo, this producer is dope. So the manager told me, I told my dad, I'm like, dad, Teddy Raleigh heard it, we need to go see him. He's like, where's he at? I said, well, the credits say he's in Virginia Beach.

So we gotta go to Virginia Beach. My dad was like, that's like a six hour drive. Like, whatever, let's go. Yeah, yeah. So we hop in the car, we hop in the van, the church van, cause my dad's a pastor, hop in the church van, we go to Virginia Beach, stand in Teddy Raleigh's, we was in his parking lot probably for like half the day.

Now for people that don't know, Teddy Raleigh's from Harlem. He built this huge studio in Virginia Beach and it was beautiful. Everybody worked there from Pharrell to Bobby Brown to Michael Jackson. Yep, so we go there in the parking lot, we just waiting for him to show up and then finally he shows up like six, seven hours later

and pull up on him. I'm like, I'm the kid that produced I'm like literally 14 years old. I'm like, you just heard my beat He was like that was you and I was like, yeah, he was like, come on come in the studio From then, you know rest is history And so now and I'm getting inducted at Teddy Raleigh's the one inducted Where did the famous Dark Child come from? Where did you get that? I just, you know, it was really,

the name itself came from the style that I felt that I was creating. I loved dark minor chords. I was youthful, you know, I'm a young kid. So I kind of took those words and played with it. But then I just started singing. I didn't know that I was really one of the first ones, probably maybe the first one doing a producer tag. I didn't know that I was really one of the first ones, probably maybe the first one doing a producer tag.

I didn't know it at the time, because I was just trying to brand myself, in a way, because I wasn't the type that wanted to be like him and be on the microphone rapping all the time, even though I could spit a little bit, but I didn't want to do that. So I was like, how they gonna know who did the record? So I was like, Doc Child, I will say it.

And then what happened was the artists started to say it. So like Tony Braxton sang it, and then Whitney said it, and then Michael said it, and then her said it. They just started saying it. So I was like, I ain't gotta say it no more, let them say it. I love that. Was that like a producer beat camp, really?

Cause it was y'all, it was you, Pharrell, well, Neptune's, it was a bunch of y'all. So how was working in that Beat Camp? Because you had producers, you're learning from an icon, but y'all all became your own in your own separate ways. Yeah, I think that's what was special about being in VA is like, Teddy's studio, you wanted to get into his room and see what he was doing, right? And when I came, Pharrell and them was already there.

So they was, I was the one that had to really kind of wait for my turn, because they was already down there. And they was kind of like, Teddy was cool, because he wasn't like signing nobody. So it was more so just like, yo, you here, let me hear what you got. So I've been there and I'm just waiting for my shot.

And then eventually he'd be like, all right, come in little bro. And then you press play and it's just like, all right, cool, we gonna get to work. And that's how it kinda happened. How many hits did you make back then that you didn't get to credit for? I got credit for my hits.

Oh, I love that. I always think that, so it's funny you say that though, right? I always look at like how people do their business and whatever's wrong with their business, it's not gonna be wrong with my business. So there's a lot of mistakes that I would see in the industry and I'd be like,

y'all allowed that to happen, that can't happen to me. You know, and I've learned to play in a position of fair with my artists, I've learned to be, I wanna be one of those dudes where when you know like, oh, you did a deal with him, you got a good deal. You know, and a lot of producers now that's blown up came from my camp like who D-Mile mm-hmm Tommy Brown like these are like the people who did D-Mile just did I think every Bruno Mars record that you can think of you know

they need producer tax. Silk Sonic. They need producer tags. I don't know any of the new- Cause we don't read the credits anymore like that. You know what I mean? Cause you stream. They don't even understand what it means. They don't even understand what it means. Like, then I think we were in a different day, right back in the day, it was a producer driven industry.

It wasn't file sharing. So I wasn't sending you a file. Like I'm in the studio with Michael. I'm in the studio with him. I'm doing their vocals with him. I'm I'm coaching them now It's just like you'll send the files and we won't cut that tonight and send it back to you and now you break that down In personal engagement like is none of that is not at all. Not at all. I think I think that's where the game is lost I think there's a lot of producers and artists that don't even know each other. Yeah, and it's just send the beat over

And there's a difference too. Remember like when credits was a thing? That's right. Well, credits was a thing, but it was also a thing where you might only saw three to four names on a song. The only time you saw multiple names is when someone was someone sampled. Now you see 10, 15 names on a record.

You're like, hey, like who wrote what? Like nobody can, there's no real identity of a songwriter anymore, or of a producer anymore, because there's so many names, so we don't know who did what. Isn't a lot of that have to do with samples sometimes though? That's what I'm saying, this is back in the day it did. Now, no. Wow.

Now it's just because you've been file sharing. So it's like, if I'm working on a track, and I started and I'm like, oh this is dope, let me send track, and I started and I'm like, oh, this is dope, let me send it to him. And then he's like, yo, this is dope, but I think I could do a better 808. The minute that he has his 808, he's now a co-producer. And then he sends it over to him and he like,

yeah, this is fire, but yo, what if we add this pad? Soon as he had that pad, now he's a producer. Now you got three producers versus the one. When I started out, every song that I did, I produced. So you're talking about 50% of the publishing is mine right out the gate. That's how it starts with every record, 50%. Now when I look at splits now,

I be seeing the producer like 7%, 5%, 10%. I'm like, Yo, what happened? So I'm blessed to know the time that I came up with. Yeah, yeah. Now I gotta ask, now you just glazed over Michael Jackson. Talk about how you started working with Michael Jackson. How was that called and how was he in the studio? Cause you were actually in the studio with him.

The greatest artist I've ever worked with, hands down. And you know, Mike was so special and different that he pushed you to limits, like you can't even imagine. I remember him telling me, you gotta get exhausted in the music. I'm like, what? Like I ain't no, I'm 21 years old. So you're talking about a 21 year old kid

working with Michael Jackson pretty much. How did they call? How was that, how did he reach out? Oh, it called, yo, this is real crazy. It called from a dream. What. It called from a dream. What? It happened from a dream. Oh, I was in my mom. Why did you say that before?

I was in my mom and dad's house on the couch. Took a nap. And I had a dream, literally had this dream that I was pulling up to the studio with glass windows. And I saw Michael Jackson in a red shirt, that that red shirt with the black pants in the window. I woke up from the dream, told my mother and father the dream I just had, the phone rings like 10 minutes later.

Lady by the name of Carol Bear Seger calls. You probably don't even know what that is. She wrote That's What Friends Are For. It's the older lady, whatever she said. I had Say My Name Out at the time by Destiny's Child. She goes, Rodney, I love this song you have out. I wanna know if you would love to come to my house and work this week.

And I was like, I didn't even know she was. She was like, I'm working with Michael Jackson. I was like, where? She's like, Bel Air. I was like, I'm in Jersey, but I'm out. I'm in Jersey, but I'm going for real. I got on the plane and I stayed in a hotel until she called me.

She called me on Thursday, four days later, and was like, can you come to the house today? I'm like, yeah, I came. I kid you not, man. I'm pulling up the driveway. I look to the left. I see Michael Jackson in the window with the red shirt. Damn.

Staring out the window. Just like the dream, bro. And I was like, nobody can't tell me God ain't real. Have you ever told him that? Did you tell him that? 100%. I literally told him, I'm like, you know, he believes in stuff like that all the time. Yeah, what did he say? He's like, yeah, that's how it was supposed to happen. Is that how you say it? That's how it was supposed to happen.

Wow. Mark's voice is actually deeper than that. I bet it is. I've been hearing that. That's how it was supposed to, you know, he a little deeper than that, right? But it was true. Like, like, like, I just feel like God just went like, he showed me exactly how I was going to be so I can have the story to be able to tell him one day how it's supposed to be. I want to say Envy is it's glossed over not glazed over. Even though Michael Jackson deserves all the glazing because he's the greatest of all time it's glossed over. Jesus Christ. It's crazy. Now talk about MJ working with MJ. How was that? Amazing. He worked me hard bro. He's different. He'd be like, he would call 3, 4 o'clock in

the morning and be like, can I hear what you're working on over the phone? And I'd be like, I'm actually not working right now. I'm actually trying to take a nap because I've been up for 30 hours. No, well can you go to the studio right now and play? He's like that. So I get up and drive to the studio and play him, and Mike was so crazy with it that this was crazy. I was playing some on the phone, he'd be like, can you turn the hi-hats down three dBs? And then make sure he goes,

and make sure they're panned to the left. And I'd be like, really? He goes, yes. And I would be bugging, the only thing I could think of, right? Which is just like, really? He goes, yes. And I would be bugging, and the only thing I could think of, right, which is just crazy, right? Michael Jackson was taught by Barry Gordy. Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones.

Teddy Rowland. So that school, I'm a part of that school now. Right? And I'm getting what he learned from Barry Gordy and Quincy Jones. So I'm taking it all in, I'm a part of that school now. Right? And I'm getting what he learned from Barry Gordy and Quincy Jones. So I'm taking it all in, I'm learning. But dude was, he was incredible, bro. Like, and a great person.

Like, you know, we used to bet DVDs, we played pool together. And bet DVDs. Bet DVDs. I used to bet him, he beat me, because I scratch. And we go shopping right here in Virgin Music Store in Times Square. He would walk in there with you?

He put the disguise on. We went there. And I had to buy the DVDs. A lot of people don't know this. I took Michael to Rucker Park. In disguise. To watch basketball? No one knows this.

Y'all know it now. But when we did Rock My World, Michael kept saying, we need to go to a club and test it out. And I was like, I got one better. I said, I'm gonna take this spot called Record Park. And I didn't let him get out the car, but I just wanted him to feel the energy.

So I went to Record Park and I played the record and they was going crazy. They didn't know that Mike, the window was cracked was going crazy. They didn't know that Mike, the window was cracked the whole time. They didn't know Mike was in the car. Wow. That's crazy. And I'm gonna tell y'all how cool we got. This how cool we got.

I'm in Manhattan one time. I could sense that. Every time I'm with Mike, he's in disguise. When he goes out, like it's always that. One day I was like, yo, hey Mike, I'm coming to pick you up. He was like, wow. I was like, just be ready, I'm coming to pick you up. I had a blue Peacock Bentley convertible.

I dropped the top, I pull up to his apartment, and I say, yo Mike, come out. He's like, let me get Skip. Skip was his security guard. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Come out. You're trying to kill Michael. Listen, I'm trying to kill him.

I'm trying to let him see what I knew he wanted to see. Right? And I knew no one would do that for him but me. He gets in my car, I put the windows up, but the top is off. And I remember this day, because that was the day that Hot 97 was playing the Janet Jackson, Black Street record

that just came out. And it came on and I'm playing Hot 97, I'm rolling through Manhattan with Michael. And he's going crazy. He's just loving the fact. When we got back to the apartment, he looked at me and said, he's like, thank you.

And I'm just like, yo, this is what it's about. I wasn't trying to get him killed. I was just trying to let him see reality because he ain't seen it in so long. You feel what I'm saying? And that spills over into our production. That spills over to Rock My World. It spills over to what we trying to create

because you have to still have a sense of what's going on or you can't really create from a real place. You know what I wanna ask you as a producer, like you talk about Michael Jackson, you worked with him, you worked with Whitney, you worked with Brandy, Beyonce, what's something they all had in common in the studio that separated them from everybody else? Tenacity, patience.

You're talking about artists that focus on making albums, which is another art form that we've lost a little bit. Right, it wasn't about just the single. It was about how to make a great album. I feel like a lot of them sometimes got caught up in trying to compete with themselves, especially Michael. Like he was overly trying to compete with himself. You'll never beat Thriller.

How could you? Yeah. You know what I mean? But he believed he would, right? He believed he could, he believed he would, which is crazy to think about, right? If Michael was alive or was doing what he was doing in the streaming world, I believe he could have beat it.

Really? Yeah, I believe he could have beat it. But you know what's interesting with an album like Thriller or any artist, what are you trying to beat? Are you trying to beat yourselves or are you just trying to be better musically? I would think you just would want to be better musically. I don't think so.

I think someone like Michael got obsessed with knowing the numbers that he did was so high that he wasn't competing against anyone else anymore. Musically it wasn't a race with Prince anymore, it wasn't all that. He's like, I already beat you, now I'm trying to beat me, right? And how I know this to be factual

was because he didn't say that. He would say, I think there's a day where I could do a billion sales. He literally would say that. So that lets me know that he's racing for a number. And he had to because in his mind he was like, how do you stay hungry? How do you stay hungry?

When you're the greatest, how do you get up for the fight? A lot of great fighters lose fights because they just can't get up for the fight anymore. Because they've done that, that's why you gotta give props to someone like a Floyd Mayweather. You gotta be like, yo, this dude stay hungry, like no matter what. Some people get the 40 and no 42 and no and they ready just like, I'm done with it. Not putting in that time no more. He saw, he had, he was super competitive.

He was super competitive with me, meaning like he would challenge me and tell me like, yo, that producer over there, he's coming for you. He would tell me. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Catherine Townsend.

I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country, begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. I have calling about the murder of my husband. It's a cold case. I've never found her and it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line,

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that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We asked parents who adopted teens four or five. Listen to Hell and Gone Murderline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that

I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptUSkids.org to learn more. Brought to you by AdoptUSKids, the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. Welcome to the You Versus You podcast.

I'm Lex Borrero, and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, theero, and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff. The struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, flowing childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shaped their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes, with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams.

Here's a sneak peek. I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be like harder. But sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden. Is it wrong to want more? We migrated, our family migrated here. I'm like second generation.

Who's not going to have a trauma coming from a foreign country and you come to the United States and you don't even speak English? Listen to You vs. You as part of Michael Tudel Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.

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you out of your mind. That's how we talk. But he liked that. And the coldest thing I saw Mike do was a friend of mine, he ran EMI publishing, Big John. Big John Platt, who? Who's the Big John? Big John Platt is the CEO of Sony Music Publishing now. But at the time he was running EMI, he wanted to meet Mike.

So, I took Mike to EMI to meet him. I went to go make sure everything was okay. Inside, I came back out, Mike was gone. And there was a van parked in the spot. I'm like, yo, what happened, where'd he go? The guy got out the van and said, Mike wanted some fried chicken. So he went up the block to Kentucky Fried Chicken.

That's how he was, that's how he was. And what was crazy was, y'all were here to story about Jay-Z doing the Summer Jam, bringing Michael out? Of course. Which story? I never heard that. That's because of me. Yeah, we've heard stories, but which story? No, no, he brought Michael out the Summer Jam bringing Michael out? Of course. Which, what story? I never heard that. That's because of me. Yeah, we've heard stories, but which story?

No, no, he brought Michael out at Summer Jam. That doesn't happen without me introducing him to Michael. Break it down, yeah. Jay-Z, again, Jay-Z wants to meet Michael Jackson. So my man Big Chuck, Big John, all them call me like, yo, can you introduce Jay to Mike? I'm like, yeah, I got even know Jay yet. I'm like, yeah, I got even know Jay yet. I'm like, yeah, I got him.

Bring him to the studio. That was actually, that was the first time I seen Jay kind of in a, just a very chill, like, yo, this Michael Jackson. So yeah, like this Michael Jackson. I introduced him to Michael. He had a great conversation, we talking. Next thing you know, a couple months later,

he calls Michael to do Summer Jam. Like he does it. Is that Michael on the Girls Girls Girls remix? There's a version with him. That's what they, yeah, that's what, on one of the remixes. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to ask.

Hold on, hold on, finish this story. You can finish this story. No, no, it was just like, I think like I was, it was funny cause I was just there trying to introduce, I think, even 50 Cent, it was just, I was introducing him to people that wanted to meet him and that he wanted to meet.

Mike was a die hard 50's fan at the time. Like no other rapper mattered to Michael. And 50. 50 and Biggie. I was gonna ask you, wow. Biggie was gone. Biggie was gone. I remember Michael used to do crazy challenges with me. I remember I was working on this song called Unbreakable. And as I'm finishing it, Michael goes,

we need Biggie on it. As if he was alive. That's the way he spoke. And I was like, what you mean? He was like, I want Biggie on this. So I'm like, how am I gonna get it right? You know what I mean? And then I realized I had like a acapella

for something that he did with Shaq back in the day. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna use this and see if I can time it and get it right. And I got it in there. And he was like, okay, good, we good now. I got Biggie. But they worked together in real life too though. Oh, I always see that picture.

I don't know if it's real or not. I don't know, maybe he did, I don't know. I know he Biggie and 50 was the two people he constantly talked about. Can you imagine Michael Jackson wiling the what up gangsta? Damn, yes. Low key, yeah.

From what Ronnie said, yes, I can imagine that. I'm interested in, I was gonna ask you about this, but I wanna ask you about it. Now I'm interested in I was gonna ask you about this but I want to ask you about now I'm interested in your visions, right? You just told us the vision you had about Michael and I heard division you had about Jay-Z Yeah, has Michael or Whitney visited you in any of you? He used to sing at my dad's church in Pleasantville, New Jersey a little church with 50 50 people in it Call me up one day. I think Charlotte man a in a dream, but I'm like this story again. One of your visions, yeah.

Has said again, say it. Have they visited you in a vision? Like a dream. Oh, you're saying since? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, Michael for sure. Michael for sure.

Anything you wanna share? Not as much Whitney, but like, but Michael for sure, just lie. To just be like, I'm back in the lab with Michael, creating. And the crazy thing is, is when I've had that dream, which has happened a few times, it was something musically incredible. And when I got up, I couldn't remember what I was creating.

But in the dream, it was like, whoa. It didn't sound like anything from here. Now you was talking about Whitney coming to your dad's church. Yeah, so me and Whitney bonded when I worked with her. Spiritually we bonded. And one day she just called me out the blue and she was just like, we had just finished working together. Album had came out.

She was like, hey, what you doing, dark child, early Sunday morning? I was like, it's like eight o'clock in the morning. What you mean? What am I doing? She goes, I want to go to church Sunday morning? I was like, it's like eight o'clock in the morning. What you mean, what am I doing? She goes, I wanna go to church today. And I was like, okay. And she's like, no, I wanna go to your church. And I was like, my church is like two and a half hours from Mendham, New Jersey.

She was like, I'm on my way. And she pulled up to church. Like she pulled up and she sang. She whispered in my ear, she was like, tell your daddy I wanna sing. Who year was this? This is like 1998 your daddy. I want to sing. What year was this? This is like 1998 or 9 Wow and

Crazy she sang killed it but here three months before she passed away. She called me up. I Ain't talked to her in like probably five years. She called me. So I need to see you. I said, what's up? She goes we need to pray together She's like where you at? I said, I'm in my you. I said, what's up? She goes, we need to pray together. She's like, where you at? I said, I'm at my studio in Hollywood. She goes, I'm on my way. She came all the way down from Newport Beach, wherever she was living at at the time.

Literally came in a studio and next thing you know, it turned into like a church service in the studio, just three months before she passed away. So we've always had that, like, some of that type of connection. Now you also talked about the competition between Prince and Michael, right? Mm-hmm.

Was it the competition where you couldn't work for Prince because Mike had his people, Prince had his people? How serious was that competition? No, I think no. Because we hear stories all the time. Mike definitely stopped me from working with a lot of people at that time. Like who?

Just a lot of artists. A lot of artists was calling me to work at that time and Mike was just like, I'll pay you not to work with them. Yeah, he was like, I need you. And it wasn't a thing of, I'll pay you not to work with them because they're not good or anything like that,

was more so I need you here. Focused and locked in on what we're doing. You know, we always hear conspiracy theories, like, you know, they'd be like, oh, Bill Cosby was trying to buy NBC. Michael's the only person I believe they really, really tried the railroad like that because of what he did with the publishing

in the music industry. He talked about it all the time. He talked about it all the time. One thing I will say is that in the studio, he would always talk about how he lived in a certain fear. And I used to always try to reel him in a direction like, yo, you only supposed to fear God. Man can't, shouldn't have you feeling like that.

No man should have you living in that space. But he lived in that space a lot because he felt like he had something that was so valuable, which he did. He had something so valuable that people wanted. He owned like half of Sony ATVs published, right? Yeah, I think what people have confused, I'm glad you said it that way,

because I think people have confused the narrative. People for so long have said, Michael owned the Beatles catalog. I heard that. No, Michael owned Sony ATV. That's right. Wow. Which is Babyface, Mariah, the Beatles. Yeah, I see.

Probably some of my catalog was in there. You feel me? It's like half the music industry? Yes, like I mean, you got three giants, right? At the time you had three giants. Sony was pretty much the biggest out of three at that time. And they did a deal with him that, you know, forever he felt that they wanted back.

You know what I'm saying? You think they threw all those cases at Michael because they wanted it back? I think it could have had something to do with it. I'm not gonna say exactly that, but it could have had something to do with it. But I believe none of it, because I was around Mike all the time

and I knew the kind of person he was. So I'm like, they really trying to kill his character. Yeah, I don't believe it. And he would say, like, he'd be like, they just can't stand that I'm the greatest. He would literally say that. He would literally say that. He just can't stand that I'm the greatest.

How was his mind framed during that time? Did he feel like the culture, especially black people supported him and loved him, or did he feel like the world was turning against him? Now, I would say we started to surround him with that. Like if you look, there was a period where I think he didn't feel that. And I felt like he was like, I need this, right?

So there were certain people that he started to reach out to to put their arms around him and he started to feel that. That's why he would do a summer jam with Jay-Z. It was really like, he knew like, I need people to have my back in this, and then certain people did wrap their arms around him. And as things progressed, the one thing I can tell you about Michael

that I started to learn was his family was strong. Like his family, like when they got together and wore all that white, they were wearing those white, going into court each day, you saw that unity in a different type of light. You're like, oh, yo, these Jacksons, they're not playing around with this, they unified. And I think that helped him even though he was like

probably going through a mentally weak and all of that. And it's tough when you know you pretty much own something that everybody owns. Yeah. Damn. Man, so after all that, John Keith, what you got going on over there? Yes, that's a crazy, that's a crazy situation.

That's a crazy situation. I ain't even ready to get to you yet. I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I'm not ready. We gonna get to you.

But you know, you gotta sit here and listen. We ain't never interviewed you. I prefer that. I don't wanna go after Michael, that's crazy. I got you. Now you also helped shape the sound of early Destiny's Child. Yeah.

Did you see Beyonce becoming the Beyonce we now know? Yeah, 100%. From the first session, Say My Name was our first session. And then we worked together again. And when I got to Deja Vu with her and Jay, that's when I really knew. I saw the difference, right? Because in the group format, she still was in the group.

So she might've been like somewhat, you know, if you really look at Destiny Child as a group, they never really showed her as the leader. You know how you're in certain groups and you know like that's the leader? No, they was kind of trying to position them somewhat like a boys demand where they all could do their thing.

But we saw the leadership qualities when we worked with her, right? But when I got the deja vu bro, I remember playing her to demo the deja vu for first time When the song went off, she was already telling me her visual for the visuals So she was like this is how I see it that i'm gonna put j on it like she was telling me She remind me of so much of Michael was scary Like at that time I was like, yo, she just came, she just came into her own like mic. Like she's now, you know, I could just see the elevation

of that, you know what I mean? Like really quickly. I wanted to ask, you know, out of all, besides Whitney and Michael Jackson, who was one of your best artists to work with? Like the timing, the fact that they're there all the time, they gonna grind it out, they're amazing vocalist who was that next person of course besides Beyonce probably probably Brandi I would think

why you say that? That's my girl. Take us into a session with Brandi. It was just like well Brandi it was it was it was the regiment that she had that was interested right it was special when I was doing Never Say Never, but Full Moon especially, like, she was playing tennis with Serena Williams before the session every day, right? Which was interesting. That was great, you got so many stories, go ahead.

Yeah, she was practicing with Serena every day and she would come in the studio, shout out to my man, Paris Davis, because he was the A&R, like a real A&R cat, right? And he had her, he was the one that said, you need to be playing tennis. So he had her playing tennis early in the morning, come in the studio, and

John can tell you as an artist nowadays, artists can do a song in one day, they done it in and out, few hours, it's done. We was doing songs, it was taking us three, four days. We really working on backgrounds just on one day. I remember times when people, a lot of artists would actually be like, yo, Rodney, please let me go tired.

I'm like, we ain't done, like it's not right yet. Until we get this thing right, we not done. Brandy was one of those artists that would go the full length and not complain about it Mike would even sometimes complain like Ryan I'm getting horse like his vocal coach would call me Seth ribs I can't be like you're working you're working them too hard running you work them too hard I'm like you're working on music working on song bro. Like what we do. How does that affect you now with these new artists, right? Because They're not staying in the studio that long our to two. So how do you still have that same conversation

with a new artist and say, nah, I need you to come back. I need you to stay longer. It's not happening. And then, like you said, you'll be like, you used to be like, look, we're not done. So and your artists stay there because they know the work and dedication is gonna make for great music.

You tell one of these new artists that- They don't even know what eight to 10 hour, 12 hour. It was times, me personally, I stay in the studio, people know I wouldn't leave. I'd be there two, three days straight. People after three, four hours, they kinda like, yo, it's time to go. The music is worse.

I'm like, yo, that's not even a nine to five though. You think about it, if you was working, you're not even giving your full nine to five right now So I don't know when that that that that shift happened exactly. I think like maybe hip-hop caused it you know what I mean, or maybe when we hear stories of like When little wayne says you're i'm working on his album from the hotel It may have created a narrative like yo, I don't need to go in the studio in the booth anymore I could just do like he did a record right out of his car that's fire, like they, you know, maybe that's what happened.

Like something had to shift. Technology. Technology. So what does it take to build a superstar in today's game when the attention span is so short and most of these guys and girls already think they're a brand? I try to encourage, you know, I try to encourage artists to

do what I was taught and that's study. Like study everybody before you like know the errors of music and go deep into it understanding what it takes to be great right it's not just like I got a song that's that's dope and it's popping I'm gonna do this TikTok video like that's gonna come it's popping, I'm gonna do this TikTok video, da da da da. Like that's gonna come, it's gonna go. But if you really study and understand, there's a reason why a Michael was a Michael because he looked at Jackie Wilson and James Brown, and he was like, okay,

I'm gonna add that to my repertoire, right? And I'm gonna learn how to do what they do and take it to the next level. Nowadays, I think artists are looking at each other around and saying, yo, I got something hotter than that, or I need to get a feature. Instead of really going back and being like, yo, I wanna know why this person sold 60 million,

like why would Thriller sell 60 million albums? There's a reason. It was great. The quality, it was 100 now, right? 40, you know, that's crazy when you think about it. Like when we was talking about it, it was at 60. And that was like 15 years ago. Now it's at a hundred. But the reason why is because you had these geniuses, right?

Not just Quincy and Mike, Bruce Wheeling on the mixing, the best musicians in the world, like they cared. It wasn't about, let me just give my homie to play guitar on this part right here. Nah, I need David Williams to play, I need the best. Like, he gotta be close to Prince to play on this song. And that's what we missing. So who are you studying, Mr. Keith?

Man, you know what I'm saying, now, you know what I'm saying, after linking up with Rodney, it's kind of like where I really started my study journey. You know what I'm saying? So like, I just texted him the other day, I was like, hey man, what are the best Michael Jackson documentaries? You know what I'm saying, he was like the one I'm in,

but you know what I'm saying? Yeah, of course. You know what I'm saying, I've been looking at The Beatles, I've been looking at Michael Jackson recently. A lot of because of what he talks about with his competitive spirit and his drive to just be great. You know? And so yeah, I mean that's kind of where I've been recently. Yeah. Where you from? I'm from San's kind of where I've been recently.

Yeah. Where you from? I'm from San Diego. San Diego. Yeah, California. Are labels still investing in artist development the way they used to? Or is that like the responsibility of people like you now, Rodney, as a producer or like the manager? Labels don't do that.

All right. Like, I don't even know the last time I really had a real A&R conversation with a label. Like a real, like, you know, back in the day, the A&Rs get involved and really help shape what it's gonna look like. Nowadays, it's just like digital research. Well, yeah, they chase the numbers now. Yeah, like the numbers, it's the numbers.

And by the way, we can't blame the A&Rs. So let's put this out there. No, you can't. Because everything starts with the top down. You're going from the top. So it's whatever the mandate of the top is telling you. The mandate is we don't need 17 creative A&Rs anymore. I remember when I worked at Def Jam under Jay in LA,

there was 17 A&Rs in a room, right? Creatives. The top says now, the top says we don't need 17 in a room. We need 10 digital researchers. But then you look at a label like TDE who was basically an A&R. That's independent. What is the digital research?

That's the difference. It's searching numbers. That's the difference, that's independent, right? The independent labels all day long. We gonna do that for him, for our artists, right? But those major labels, that's why they do deals with the TD. Right, because they're doing the A&O.

They're like, yo, you guys do that, we don't care, you guys do that, we just, cause all the thing we really care about is those numbers. Market share is the key to these major labels. But then you look at what Timbaland did, do you agree with Timbaland did, said he's signing his first AI artist,

which is a fake artist, he's basically making a beat. Do you agree with that? Because that takes away from the creative process. That takes away from what he's doing. Because he can make him. You don't think Timbaland has to be creative to do that? Yeah, absolutely. 100% he has to be creative to do that, right?

I think we get into the point where the music industry is becoming funny. Right? Remember Kanye did a song he was talking about like poop poop and all whatever? What he was basically saying was like I could say anything and y'all fools are gonna buy it. Because y'all this is where we're at right? Top 20 record by the way too. Crazy. There you go. I didn't play it one time. That's where we at, though. But I think what Timbaland's doing with the AI thing

is like, he's figured out a tool is a tool, right? He's figured out, I think people are scared. They're scared to death of AI, like it's gonna replace human. Oh, it's not? Because you still have to control it. You still have to be the one to do the prompts. It's still an art form.

I can't just, it's not just waking up like, I'm new Charlamagne, I'm AI. It's not that. It's not that. You have to literally, you have to be almost a, you have to be an incredible prompter to be able to make it do some incredible things. Somebody would say, if you put all that effort into AI,

why not put it into an artist? Artists sometimes talk back. Damn. Damn. Listen, listen. But that's been the backlash. I saw an artist say exactly what you just said. They said they don't want us talking back anymore.

Listen, listen. Somebody, listen, I talked to Timbaland in depth about this. I can't wait to see what he does with this, right? But Timbaland's a genius. He's a genius, so I can't wait to see what he does. But I think a lot of times, like, I think he's at a place in his life where he's just like, yo, I need to be just doing

what I feel I wanna do differently. I don't know if I wanna, I don't know if I got the energy to be dealing with some of the stuff that I've been dealing with. You know, and the labels and all that. I just, you know, I'm gonna just do this and I'm gonna tell this thing exactly what I need to do and whatever it does, it does. If it wins, it wins. If it don't, it don't. You know, I don't think he's caring like that. Well, it's hard. It's hard to make a hit regardless, right? And it's gonna be

even harder when people know it's coming from a I because the consumer is already gonna put a field, a force field up to reject it. They're not gonna even wanna consume it properly because it's AI. They're not even gonna give it an honest ear. So I feel like he shouldn't have said nothing. I feel like he should've just put it out. I'm 100% in agreement.

Sometimes the Bible says don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Sometimes you just gotta go. Yeah. Let people hear it, then they be like, oh that was dope, then after the fact you're like, oh shit, I ain't gonna have that with AI. Do you think timeless music can still break through

in this world that rewards the microwave success and the algorithm ones? Yeah, yeah. Okay. I think when people really, when you really put your heart into something, there's still a thing, I still believe that there's people that relate

and there's relatable content, relatable subjects, relatable things that we go through on a daily basis and when you put your heart into it, I think there's people waiting for that. I just think that we've been part of the problem of not giving it anymore, right? Us producers, the labels, you need the independent labels to now stand up to be able to give that.

So if a young producer came to you right now and he was like, how do I create my own brand? How do I create my own Beyonce in this era? Is there a blueprint for that? Didn't Jay-Z say like, if you make another hole, there ain't no blueprint, right? You just gotta work hard and put the effort, if that's something that you really wanna try to do,

I just think again, it goes back to you gotta study the craft, right? And go hard and see what you can come up with. And be patient, because I think the thing is, everybody wants the quick thing right now. Tomorrow, we we gotta beat this tomorrow. Nah like some stuff takes two three four years you gotta be patient you know. What's now we got remember back in the day you used to be able to buy like albums and everything like that now everything is new like with technology we got streaming now how

does that affect songwriting and like splits for song producers and everything? Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. On the songwriting side there's for songwriters and producers and everything. Terrible, terrible. On the songwriting side, there's two components, right? You have the master side, which is great. Then you have the publishing side. On the streaming side, it's terrible. Listen, I'm an advocate against what's going on.

There's no reason why if I got a record and it does a billion streams and I have the publishing on it, I should be able to buy a house from that. Wouldn't you think so? A billion streams? I couldn't even probably pay too much of an apartment. It's crazy.

Rent. Off a billion streams. Off a billion streams with publishing. That's facts. It's so lops publishing. That's facts. It's so lopsided. That's why I still believe in radio. I tell him in the heartbeat, he got a song at number 24 mainstream right now.

I'm like, yo, bro, don't just run away from that. You're gonna reap those benefits real soon. We're gonna see those roads. Radio checks way bigger. Yeah, you're gonna be like, I didn't realize, I I've seen people like literally, myself make a living off of radio. I'm like, man, it's like the streaming world,

it's like night and day. But somewhere along the line, people don't, I don't know where the disconnect is, but radio royalties pay way more than screaming ever could. I don't understand why you're not telling your artists make records for radio. I say it because I believe that it's still a road to discovery.

So no matter what, like, yo, you make a hot record. Yeah, of course, this generation is going to Spotify and Apple Music and seeing the streams and getting excited, right? And it's great. But at the same time, you got miles to feed. Yeah. You got, you know?

And so don't just, oh, I ain't doing this for radio no more, come on. Well that's why you feel like songwriters like a Money Long and a Neo, they keep songs for theyself, you know what I mean? Cause they not making no money writing, you know, for these new artists. So that's probably why. Yeah, definitely. Did you feel disrespected when you heard

Jess Hilaris' rendition of The Boy Is Mine? No. The Job Is Mine. No, Jess and Lauren. Thank you. Jess and Lauren, when they did the rendition of The Boy Is Mine. No, I ain't. Jess and Lauren. When they did the rendition of The Job Is Mine. Thank you. I thought it was Hilaris, but I thought it was Hilaris. We need a little more auditors. Auditor was set wrong.

Next time I'll call the producer. I'll get you straight. I'll get you straight next time. All right, thank you. What was the one record that you were surprised took off the way that it was? It might've been that one. The Boy Is Mine. Yeah, because we were going through this battle

when I was doing the Never See Never Project. You understand, I was a kid, bro. So there was some people that- Over the past six years of making my True crime podcast hell and gone I've learned one thing no town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders I was calling about the murder of my husband. It's a cold case

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There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey.

We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptUSkids.org to learn more. Brought to you by AdoptUS Kids,

the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. Welcome to the You Versus You podcast. I'm Lex Berero, and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff. The struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are.

We go deep, throwing childhood trauma, family, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, flowing childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shaped their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes, with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek. I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be like harder. But sometimes that mentality

stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own gardens. Is it wrong to want more? We migrated. Our family migrated here. I'm like second generation. Listen to You vs. You as part of Michael Tudda Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck. This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else.

Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and bestselling author and meat eater founder Steven Ronella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here. And I'll say, it seems like the ice age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the

region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Didn't believe that I should do the whole album, executive produced the whole album. And I'm in there and I'm like, and I'm, I'm young, but I'm super confident. Like y'all are tripping like this is fire. And he was telling me this is crazy. They were telling me at the end of the project, they were like, so yeah, we gotta go fly down Atlanta to work with JD to get a single.

We gotta go, then we're gonna do Wyclef to get a single. And I was like, in the studio, you kind of feel disrespected, especially when you've done like nine songs. You trying to tell me we just did nine songs and you telling me I don't got the first single? And this is my body of work that I'm putting my in here. I don't got the first single? And this is my body of work that I'm putting my in it. I don't got the first single? I swear on everything I love, I packed my bags up

and went home from LA. I went back to Jersey and I said, y'all figure it out. Damn. And then they called back and was like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. I was like, y'all a trip, we got singles left and right. Just put them things out. What had you, what had you recorded already?

What was some of the ones you recorded already? Top of the World with Mace. Yes. Oh wow. The Boy's Mind, which was early, early on in the project. I mean, we had Angel in the Sky. We had did, I had did pretty much everything. How did The Boy's Mind, was that your idea?

And how did that come about? How did you get them both together? The Boy's Mind's funny. I was just, again, at my dad's house and I was like playing this harp sound. And I was just, again, at my dad's house and I was playing this harp sound and I was like, again, it goes back to studying, right? Nobody use a harp sound in urban music. When they used it, they used it one way.

Chuckie Thompson and different producers like Dave Hall back in the day and the Untouchables, they used a harp sound, it's called gliss, like it would come down like a gliss. I heard it and I liked the sound of it. I was like, what if I made it like rhythmic? And I broke it up, like broke it into rhythm. So I just started doing it and my dad came down

with a little tape recorder. He's always had a little tape recorder. He'd be like, that's incredible. You gotta lay that. And then I laid it down. And Paris Davis, Brandy's A&R, he heard, and we did it on, we recorded it on Brandy, and he was like, yo, what if we put Monique on this?

And you know, at that time, Monique and Brandy, they all kinda didn't like each other. It was definitely a feud between the two. And I was like, oh, that's never gonna happen. Knowing Brandy and knowing that's never gonna happen, he's like, nah, I think it could happen. If I get you on the phone with Dallas Austin, and I was like, all right, and then next thing you know,

it started to shake. And even when it came out, here's the thing, I wasn't surprised that it was gonna do well, I didn't know it was gonna stay number one for that long. It's like 13, 14 weeks number one. Like we did 16 million albums sold on that project. So like those type of things for my first, my second albums, I did Genie Tom,

but my second album that I produced, executive producer to do those numbers was kind of crazy. You know what's crazy? Back then, right? Like nowadays people manufacture the drama then try to do the music. With that record, it was the song, the music, and then people started speculating about the drama

after the fact. Like is there really a boy that they arguing over? We know that they got beef with each other. So that's, and plus the video. I mean the fact, you think about them doing a tour, right? They about to do a tour together? Talking about, like, why did they do a tour together 15 years ago, right?

You know what I mean? But you know, it's time for everything, I get it. But like, dang, like, man, imagine them doing the tour together 15 years. That would have been crazy. It would have been like baddies, but for baddies. But this gonna be crazy though. They didn't get along.

What made you and Brandi chemistry work so well? I think my musicality, so what I did with Brandi, I would make Brandi match whatever I played. I don't know if that makes sense, right? If I played a sound, I wanted her to become the sound that I played. So I would tell her, I would be like,

you're the strings now. Like, I'ma play the strings, but I need you to be the string. And she did it incredibly well. Like, no, I feel like when she cut her vocals, like she, the warmth that come out of her voice is just different. Her tone, bar none, is probably the best tone

we've probably ever heard in the longest time. I always say like for me it's Jasmine, Sullivan, and Brandy, like those tones, those warm tones. And yeah, and it's just like, you know, I feel like you know within the first hour of a session whether it's gonna go right or it's gonna go left. And when we got in, you just knew, like we did five songs in the first hour of a session, whether it's gonna go right or it's gonna go left. And when we got in, you just knew. We did five songs in the first five days.

The first five songs on Never Say Never, we did in the first five days. Wow. Anybody you ever work with in the studio, you've been in there for a while, and it didn't go right, and you was like, ah. That happens. Ooh.

You're looking for something. I just wanted to know you know. It happens. All right. It does. It happens all the time. Like you know, you know, like you go, like I'll finish the session, but I'd be like, man, I wish it could have went better. Like I know like out the gate, like it was just cool. It was all right.

It wasn't, you know, it could have went better. And sometimes I'll be like, I would like to do a re-up on that. You know, because a re-up on that. Cause a lot of it is psychology. Like when you're working with people, you gotta kind of understand like, and also timing. Like imagine you working with somebody,

but that ain't the best day to work with them. Yeah. You got them that day. And back in the day was really tough for us, right? Because sometimes like when I did Say My Name, for example, Say My Name with Desi Child, I only had them for a day. Wow.

So it was like one of those things where you got, you know, you got Desi Child for a day or you got Kirk Franklin for a day. Like, I'm like, all right, I gotta go and I gotta show up and show out in one day, right? And you don't know what you're gonna get. Yeah. Was there ever an artist you worked with

who completely surprised you in the booth? Like somebody whose talent just hit different when they got on the mic? I think SZA is underestimated. I think sometimes artists will vocalize based on what's hot on what's going on. When there's so much more there, they just not giving it,

because they don't have to. I think there's a lot more there Yeah, like a lot of a lot of times I'll be when I work for says a lot of time I actually would get some brandy out of it Like some of the some of the stuff she done like some brandy might have would have done but then like her runs Yeah, there's a certain little things just little nuances down like oh that's something. But I don't know that she fully even yet knows that she can even go somewhere else. I think she's just one of those people that the more she does the work personally,

like to improve her mental and emotional wellbeing, it's gonna translate to the music. And the question is, like, well, at least for me, this is what I believe. I just believe that don't happen unless you find God. I believe there's no, there ain't, I believe there's only, it's real simple. Unless, and I'm not saying she don't know God

or had an experience with God, so don't get that part twisted. But I believe in order for us to mentally be at our best state is when we know God. Right, because the Bible says that he's not the author of confusion. So, and you gotta have a sober mind, right? Your mind gotta be on point and that only comes

from a real understanding, a real relationship. I think people have twisted the narrative too much of religious. No, that's religion. Well, I ain't got nothing to do with nothing. It's relationship. Like what's your relationship like? I have a great relationship with my four kids, right?

I got two boys, two girls. I have a great relationship. I'm their father. I have a father, a heavenly father, I have a great relationship with. It ain't religious. It's just like, I know how to talk to him and I hear him speak to me.

As simple as that. So I feel like when you have that relationship, it creates clear path for the things that you create and the things that you wanna do. At one time, I feel like, maybe it's just me, do you feel like you were oversaturated at one point? 100%. Like it was just so much, you were doing remixes.

I burnt myself out. You were jumping to hip hop, R&B. I burnt myself out. And then it just stopped, it just felt like it stopped. Yeah. What happened during that time? The stop was when I stopped. So what happened during that time?

I can tell you when it happened. It was after Michael too, like I needed a break before Michael. I was just talking about this. It was a moment where the phone is ringing and everybody's calling you and you've made it but you're trying to please everybody. The industry is knocking at the door. We got this. We're going to do this remix.

Can you beat it up? And you're just like, me, I'm so creative. I could do nine, 10 tracks in a day. It's easy for me. So it became like, oh, I could, yeah, put me in the studio song, so I got that, I got that. So 365 days out the year, I'm in a lab, right? My catalog is thick.

Like people don't even understand. Like we talk about songs that come out, but nobody understands the songs that no one's ever heard. The unreleased gems, right? Like underground versus the crazy ones. Yes, people don't understand like all of that, right? And then it comes to a point where it's like, like what he just said, like,

mentally you start feeling like you have nothing left. And that's when you have to figure out, okay, what am I gonna do? And there's this knock. And it's not me knocking, it's God knocking. Like you're giving too much of your attention to everybody else. You put too much into this industry and not into me. And God

showed me, God showed me at an early age that man will always let you down. But he never leaves us, he never forsakes, he's always knocking. Even when we go astray, even when I always try to put things in the analogy of my kids, even when I tell my kids don't go over there but they still do it, right? It doesn't mean I'm not chasing them. I'm still going to get them. That's how he is with us. Like, yeah, I see you over there, you doing that,

but I got something bigger for you. You burnt yourself out because you didn't want to listen to me. I could show you how to do things with balance. Knock on the door, come and get me. And then I have to submit to it. And then when I submit to it, I see my life change in a whole different way.

And now, now my creativity is on a different level. It's beyond music. Music is just a little small, that was just a little small piece of everything. But it showed me something way greater through my family. Did the deaths of Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston, did that bring you closer to God as well? Yeah, I was really,

technically I was kind of really more hurt when Biggie passed. I remember being in LA when that happened and I was like, I gotta go home, man. Like this is just too much. Like this industry, I think creates that sometimes. The pressure of the industry, like, yo, us people, the biggest problem that we have in this music industry is one of the toughest sins, it's called vanity.

I remember one time, right, I'm a big guy. I remember one time I was like, getting myself together, right, and I'm working hard, that thing's like 2016, I'm running the mountains, I'm doing everything, I'm dropping, and I remember I'm on FaceTime, I hit Mike Tyson one time, he was one of my best friends. And I said, yeah, like he see me, he like, but don't get it twisted, brother.

So he said, don't get it twisted, brother. I said, what? He's like, vanity will kill you. He told me that and that thing hit me so hard. Cause I was like, yo, that's what our industry's built on. Everybody that does what they do, all these pictures on the wall, they smiling a lot of these pictures,

but when they go home, they crying. They going home, they lonely. They going home, they looking at the wall and like, listen, they stressed out because they had to put the thing on. The mask. They had to put it on. You know, and that's why we, at least I tell people,

listen, let's stop playing around with this now Like we've been here long enough and I say that to y'all y'all been here long enough Y'all know what it is to get up early in the morning come to work do what you got to do that I did it all right can't tell me that it's it ain't no pressure in it. That is just easy I'm just gonna wake up and do my thing. No, so I tell people like yo, what's your relationship like with God? Not no religious stuff? What's your relationship like because if you're not tapped in tapped in you're not living your best You can a lot put the smile on it baby living my best life

No, you're not if you're not really tapped in if you don't know what's to come to tomorrow Proverbs says this it says don't boast about what you got today because you don't know what's to come tomorrow. That's the vanity part. Yo, I'm killing it right now. How many times we heard that and then the next day you're like, where'd they go? Where's the song? What happened? Puffing our chests out. God don't want that. He wants us actually to be humble. Right? Y'all got the pride month thing happen, right? Well, really, if you wanna get technical,

the Bible said pride comes before the fall. So if we puff out with pride too much, we bound to fall. And how many times you seen somebody puff their chest out and then what happens? Y'all seen it right now, real time. Literally. Real time. So I think there's rules, there's rules that God wanted to establish

as a father to his children. That's what I believe, just the same way you would to your children. And those rules, we sometimes looking like, I ain't doing that, that's too many. You got too many laws. Why is it so many rules? Because he know how he was gonna act.

Have you ever thought, like you know I wanna change my name to the light child maybe? No. No, I wrestle with that. Not light child. Not light child. Not light child.

It's not dark. Not light child, but you know what? Cause I never call myself dark child based on dark. Like that wasn't the intentions, right? It was, some people thought it was because I was dark skin. Me, I knew it where it came from, came from the chords that I used to play as a kid, these minor chords.

But it's funny, sometimes I sit and I wrestle with them, like yo, like is that, do people, will they see that in the wrong light, in the wrong way? You know, and I do, I wrestle with that sometimes. Can you work with an artist if you don't see God in him? Right now it's different for me. There was a time where like I would be straddling that fence over and over again because I didn't look at it for what it was and I think over the last two years, there's been a new birth that happened.

Like, I get it now. I get it now when Jesus told Nicodemus, he said, you gotta be born again. I get it now. Like, and even Nicodemus was like, what? Born again? What you mean by that? What you mean? Like, I thought the womb born, how does that happen?

No, like born again in your spirit. Like you have what, born again, what you mean by that? What you mean, like, I thought the womb born, like, how does that happen? No, like, born again in your spirit. Like, you have to be born again, and so there's a lot of times, people would call me all the time, yo, I want you, I just got, I could show you, I just got a call to get in the studio with an artist, and I was like, nah, I can't do that. I can't do the, why?

It's just, it's not, it's not why I'm mad. Now, what I can do, and what I will continue to do is speak what I believe is true. So I had an artist one time, I had someone call me recently about an artist coming to my studio, and I said, when they leave, I mean, if I do a record with them,

it might not be the record they expect to do. They're like, what? I was like, yeah, I guess real over here. And I said, they said, well, how real is that? I said, well, every two weeks we do a thing called Worship Alive at my studio, where we have kind of church in the studio. And you experienced it.

And they're like, you do that? I'm like, yeah, I guess really real. Like, I want to see people changed. And you can't see people change unless you change. And I'm a work in progress. I'm a work in progress. Like we all are, right? We all are work in progress and we sin daily.

So, you know, so, but I do, I believe that there's, I believe that there's hope for people. I believe I want to see people's relationships form with their father, with their Creator. So are you a, I guess, a faith artist? Because I know the Aliens Alive is a faith label. Yeah, so I'm a Christian artist. I was raised in a church, you know what I'm saying?

My Father is, he's a pastor now, but that's kinda new, but he's always been in some kind of leadership in the church. But even, for me, I got no hobbies. I do music and I'm a, like I'm a Bible nerd. That's it. I don't do sports. I don't do video games.

Like that's it. You know what I'm saying? So yeah, proudly, proudly a Christian artist. What did you see in John that said, I want to work with him? I think he wanted to kill himself. I'm probably a Christian artist. What did you see in John that said, I wanna work with him? I think he wanted to kill himself. And when you get to a vulnerable state in your music, sometimes it goes over people's heads. When I heard some of the things that he was saying,

I was like, whoa, he's special. This dude right here is special, special. He just needs the right team with him. And he keeps getting better. Over the past six years of making my True Crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Catherine Townsend.

I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. I have never found her and it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case,

bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for.

If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family.

They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptUSkids.org to learn more. Brought to you by AdoptUS Kids, the US Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. Welcome to the You vs. You podcast.

I'm Lex Berero, and every week we sit down with some of the biggest names in entertainment to talk about the real stuff, the struggles, the doubts, and the breakthroughs that made them who they are. We go deep, throwing childhood trauma, family, overcoming loss, and the moments that shaped their journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off our heroes with the hope that their humanity journey. These honest conversations are meant to take the cape off

our heroes with the hope that their humanity inspires you to become a better you and therefore set you free to live the life of your dreams. Here's a sneak peek. I'm trained to go compete. I'm trained to be like harder, but sometimes that mentality stops you from stopping and smelling the flowers in your own garden.

Is it wrong to want more? We migrated, our family migrated here. I'm like second generation. Who's not going to have a trauma coming from a foreign country and coming to the United States and not speaking English? Listen to You vs. You as part of Michael Tudor podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The American West with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network, hosted by me, writer and historian Dan Flores, and brought to you by Velvet Buck.

This podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode, I'll be diving into some of the lesser-known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best-selling author and meat-eater founder Stephen Rannella. I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll say when cave people were here. And I'll say it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th, where we'll delve into stories of the West and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today. Listen to The American West with Dan Flores on the iHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. He's not just a rapper or a singer. Like he does all his music, produces everything. Oh, no, like he's a beast. But I knew, I heard his heart in his music. And I heard something that could penetrate the youth differently. Cause I believe people go through things

and they just don't talk about it. And here's my question, right? I got a question, right? Why is it so quick, like when we think about radio, why is it so quick that we are so quick to play music from people who play their experiences or what they go through, what their lifestyle is? But when someone on the faith side,

it's hard to play that. Why is that? What's the factor of it, right? So, because people used to say, oh yeah, well that's cheesy. That's what they, oh that's corny, right? And I was like, well then I'm gonna be the difference maker in that.

And I'm gonna find some artist that ain't corny. That y'all can bob your heads to, still listen to, still groove to, da da da da da, but they got a message with it, right? So then when I came across, I was like, he's one of them ones. He's telling you his story, telling you what he's going through.

He's telling you that what he was literally about to do in his life and where the change came. It didn't come from just sitting down and getting some help from talking to somebody. It came from him, what he used to say, a Bible nerd digging deep into his word, right? And so, and if that becomes the ultimate change, how can that help someone else?

I mean, but honestly, that's what we kind of grew up on. Like when you think about like the artists we grew up on, like they were doing that. Like it may have been in a street form or whatever you want to call it, but if you actually listening to the music, there's a lot of socially redeeming value in the music. But why don't they play it?

Why don't they play the ones? So is it because they edify Christ? Is that the reason why? Are we so lost? Are we so lost that when someone's, their reality is what, his reality may be what he feels Jesus did for him, right?

And redeeming his life. If that's his reality and he's speaking on it, why can't we play that? Well, I think that if DJs and program directors, if they actually had their hearts open and not their pockets and not dealing with industry politics, they probably would accept more of that because there's plenty of it.

Like you have the Rapsody's, you have the Kendrick's last album, Mr. Morale and the Big Step, that was an incredible, incredible testimony. But then we got a song too, you got Little Baby and Kirk Franklin, you got Glorilla and Kirk Franklin. And it was good seeing it at the BET Awards where the gospel category had rappers doing gospel. But to his point, Radio is slaying it.

Stop, man, nah, it's not the right thing. Stop, no, no, no, no, but know what I mean by stop? It's point, radio isn't playing it. Stop, man, nah. It's not, it's not, no. Yeah, yeah. Stop, no. To his point, radio is not playing it. No, no, no, no, but know what I mean by stop? It's like, I don't like that. I'm gonna tell you why I don't like that. What part of it? Because you can't go and do 90% of something

and then say, okay, I'm gonna do 10% of this and then I'm gonna go win the awards with the 10% that I do when you got dudes doing it every single day and it's that lifestyle. I don't disagree with that, but to your point where all works in progress and what if that's God's way of saying,

look, you doing all of this, but you don't get no rewards for it. But you did this record and you got rewarded for it. What if that makes that person a little more in that direction? Nah, God ain't concerned about no rewards. You think he, you really think God is concerned about it. You think he's concerned about a songwriter's hall of fame for me? You really think that? Be honest.

Or a trophy or something. Why do you think that? Because I think that you, it's your testimony, right? You've told us how you've opened up to God and you know, you've given your life to God and you're continuing to be rewarded for it. And I think that will make people be like, damn, I want to do what he's doing. It's not just about beats. It's about the work he's done on himself spiritually. I'm glad you think that.

I don't think that. And I'll tell you why. This is what I believe. When you play a basketball game, right? A team that's playing basketball, there's no reason to play on a team. Let's say in any NBA team, there's no really reason to play

unless the goal is to get to the finals. We've put too much on our finals being here on earth. If our finals was really predicated, which it really is, on eternal, we would play the game differently. I personally don't think that God is really concerned about the reward. I think he's concerned about the ultimate reward in heaven

that he wants to give his children. In the book of James, it talks about enduring, right? We're all in this race, right? Trying to make it, trying to live our lives and do whatever, but this is not the ultimate ending. Like some people just think it ends and it's over. No, there's an eternal, he promises it. So you show me where in his word,

where he states that he states things that didn't happen. What do you mean? You show me in the Bible where things that were talked about, right, that didn't happen. It happened. Like if they said it was going to be a storm, it's factually happened. If they said, I'm going to, it's factually happened. There were people that don't, that literally, if you told me, if you talked about certain things right now and I witnessed it and I can go back and write about it like yes all I mean is that that's what happened like people like John was sitting over but that's like your dreams like God showed you Michael Jackson right went to go work with Michael Jackson and you were

rewarded for that see you got the reward wrong no you got a reward of a relationship with Michael my reward okay, okay, my reward was when Michael called me to pray for him. In 2003, I'm in a studio with Chris Tucker and my father, we at the studio, Michael was going through that trial. And he said, where are you, I said, he said, can I come, I just need prayer.

That's the reward. All the accolades, it just comes and all that, that's what the world sees. But now that I'm older and look back, I'm like, yo, the ultimate reward, and I'm blessed to have all these stories, right? But the ultimate reward was the time that we prayed together. The ultimate reward is when I go to his funeral and Sandra Crouch and Seth Riggs, his vocal coach says,

yeah, yeah, Michael received Christ two weeks ago. He had us prayed and he did the sinners prayer. That's the reward. That's what I'm trying to get everybody to understand. That's the reward. But how do we know that God didn't connect you and Michael for that reason? He might have.

That's what I'm saying. And even now, God has expanded your territory so much that you are Rodney Darkchild Jerkins. Your testimony hits different, my brother. When you're on the microphone telling people that they need to find God and these are the reasons why, their ears are open a little bit more. Facts.

Their ears are open because of the work that you did with everybody else. That's why you always say, we always talk about putting the medicine in the candy. But let me do ask you about- I love debates about God, by the way. You say what? I love debates about God.

Well anytime, I'll give you my number, we can hang and- Absolutely. Did you sell your catalog? If you loved it, that means you're being caught, but go ahead. Did you sell your catalog? Yeah, several times.

Jesus Christ, Envy. Several times. Now recently- Listen, nobody's worried about God. It's not about God. Several times. Did you sell your catalog? No, the reason I I ask is recently they said that you sold your catalog. You talk about owning your stuff so much.

Several times. Several times. Why? Several times. Because I know things that they don't teach y'all. I know things that most people don't know. I know that there's a 35-year copyright law, which after 35 years, what's mine comes back to me. I know that in any business, you're a businessman,

in any business, you build an asset, right? And when you build an asset, when you get a multiple that you're satisfied with, you make that move and you take that and you invest in other things. Right? So, where they've been getting people at for years is telling people wait until they're old and decrepit until they sell their catalog. That's the wrong narrative.

Right? They've done that to every... I know a friend of mine has sold his catalog several times. And how he, every time you get a three year MPS, which means good numbers, three years of good numbers, there's people that wanna buy that, right? So let me ask you a question. If it takes me 80 years, let's say I'm making a million dollars a year and I'm 20 years old, I'm making a million dollars a year and I'm 20 years old, I'm making a million dollars a year

and you give me $80 million at 20 years old, I would have been 100 years old to get that 80 million. Give me the 80 now. I know what to do with that. I know what to invest in. Give me the 80 now. I know what to do with that. I know what to invest in. Give me that now. So I tell people what the real is and what they should know. And one thing that people don't really talk about

is copyright law. A lot of people don't really understand that there is a US copyright law. And every 35 years you have to do the work and put the things in motion, but you get your copyrights back. Now all my artists that are signed to my label, they own their masters.

You feel what I'm saying? And I want him to do the same. I want to be able to tell him when it's time, yo, it's time for you to let that go. Well, why? Because you got a family and you got things that you wanna do and trust me, I've done this over and over again.

And what people don't realize is that a lot of times the press releases confuse people, right? Because they'll say, oh, so-and-so sold, Timberland sold his catalog, so-and-so just to be a sort. People ain't selling their whole catalogs, bro. Like people not selling with everything. Sometimes you sell increments, little things here and there, right, and you play the numbers game,

you see what those multiples gonna look like, and if you do the timing of everything, you say, that, okay, well I'm gonna be 90, 100 years old. I might be gone. I could do that, put that into my children now. That's how I think. Did you give your 10% to the church? Come on, man.

Well, Rodney gotta go. He has rehearsals. I don't even, that's a whole debate, by the way. Now I'm with you. I don't feel like I need no money. That's a whole thing. Can we leave on a prayer? You got any last questions? Can we leave on a prayer?

If we're not even going to pray, it's going to be let him pray. Hold on. John Key come over here. I ain't even get warmed up. Oh, by the way, by the way, no, but listen, real quick though. My man John Key, June 27, got his project coming out and I'm super excited about his project. We're going to get a song on too this morning. I've been listening to a lot of faith-based artists.

You know Miles Minik? Yeah, they got a whole album together. What? I asked my guy DJ Head, he put me on to Miles a while ago. And the funny thing, he didn't even tell me that Miles was a faith-based artist. He just said, yo, listen to this.

Yeah, Head is a big advocate of just putting it in front. Cause people got a, there's a stigma about Christian artists. You know what I'm saying? That they're a certain way, that they gotta sound a certain way. And so like when you hear people that sound like Miles or sound like me or sound like Andy Tribe or No Big Deal, whatever.

You know what I'm saying? Like they're like, oh wait, hold up, this is Christian? And it's like, it's hard bro. You know what I'm saying? Every single time I hear from them I'm like, dad, I didn't know it was like that. Cause the thing is, it's like, you's hard, bro. Every single day, we're like, dad, I didn't know it was like that. Because the thing is, it's like, you know what I'm saying? Those of us who do it well are not on a mission

to make a genre of Christian music. We're just making music, and we're Christians. So we're not going to rap or sing about stuff that's not our life. You know what I'm saying? But that's also why, like, what he said, like, in my music, I'm always, I'm gonna tell you, like, yeah, I was struggling with, you know,

the thoughts to take my life since I was 11 years old. I'm gonna talk about that. And it's not gonna be the happy rainbows and sunshine, yo, you know what I'm saying, when you get life with Jesus, everything is just good. And it's like, nah, like, let's talk about real life, because people live real life, and, you know, they don't understand what life with Jesus is like.

You know what I'm saying? So it's like, we fall in love, you know what I'm saying, we get angry, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's all kinds of stuff that goes on, and it's like, you know what I'm saying, if you making music that is Christian music, and it's only goes on. It's like, you know what I'm saying, if you making music that is Christian music and it's only worship, then it's like, well, if I'm, you know what I'm saying,

if I wanna listen to love songs, then I gotta go listen to the wildness that's out there right now. You know what I'm saying, debauchery or whatever, because ain't no love songs that like, can still be about, you know what I'm saying, a person loving another person, but from a point of view of someone who understands that these things are echoes of God.

And so, yeah, that's me. But yeah, me and Miles just did something. And then, yeah. Well, congratulations. Appreciate it. You got your own festival, Holy Smoke? Yeah, we got a festival, Holy Smoke, that's August 14th through 16th, it's in Nashville, Tennessee.

Me and my brothers, an indie tribe, No Big Deal, Moga the Iceberg, Troy Deshawn, Mike LV. It's an open invitation. Yeah. On me. You have to experience it, cause then it will make you understand what it's all about. For real.

If y'all wanna come, I got y'all. That's the Christian weed. I will pay for y'all to come. You said what? Christian weed. You sound like that. It's like a peace game weed. Holy smoke.

You know how many people come to us? We did a year where like, you know, cause it's fully operated, it's fully artist owned and operated, right? So it's us who do it. And I'm in charge of the creative direction for it. And this year, or not this year, a couple years ago, we did like a whole like green like kind of thing. You know what I'm in charge of the creative direction for it. And this year, or not this year, a couple years ago, we did like a whole like green, like kind of thing. You know what I'm saying?

Like that was like the colors for it. So I was like, wait, I thought y'all was Christian. This is a weed fest? I was like, what is a weed fest? Why does it, what does that even mean? I don't know. No, it's not. No.

Well, you know what I'm saying? A lot of people have suggested that to us. We're gonna go ahead and not do it. You know. Okay. You better keep just waiting. I know, you better what I'm saying? A lot of people have suggested that to us. We're gonna go ahead and not do it. You know. You better keep just waiting. You better keep just waiting. I respect you, John. You're right.

Well, let's play a record, man. What you want to hear? For me? Yeah. Oh, man. I don't know what you... That's out? Whatever y'all want to hear.

What you want to hear? You want to hear? Play the record that's on the charts. Play the record that's on the charts. All right, okay. That's the radio side. We can do club. It's a song with him and Miles Minik. Yeah. From the record that's on the charts. Play the record that's on the charts. All right, okay. That's the radio side. We can do club. It's the song with him and Miles Minnick

from the West Indies project called Club. Yeah. We'll get into it now, but now we gotta close out with a prayer, brother. Man, hey, what's up, God? No, I'm playing. Father, we thank you for this time, just being able to sit down and talk about things

that concern you, because it all concerns you, Father. So we just thank you for that. We thank you for that. We thank you for open hearts. Just ask that you would plant any seeds that you wanted to plant during this conversation. And that, yeah, you would just be present with us for the rest of the day.

In the name of Jesus, amen. Amen. Rodney Jerkins, the legend, man. Congratulations again, songwriter Hall of Fame. John Keith, Rodney Jerkins. It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up! Early in the morning.

The Breakfast Club. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care.

Visit adoptUSkids.org to learn more. Brought to you by AdoptUSKids, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. I think everything I might have dropped in 95 has been labeled the golden years of hip hop. It's Black Music Month and We Need to Talk is tapping in. I'm Naila Simone breaking down lyrics, amplifying voices, and digging into the culture that shaped the soundtrack of our lives.

Like that's what's really important and that's what stands out is that our music changes people's lives for the better. Let's talk about the music that moves us. To hear this and more on how music and culture collide, listen to We Need to Talk from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and batter than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices Podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy.

Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. Listen to the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday. On the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you go to find your podcast. Over the years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Catherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband. The murderer is still out there.

Each week, I investigate a new case. If there's a case we should hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.