The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Ryan Coogler Talks 'Sinners,' Michael B. Jordan, Denzel, Chadwick Boseman, Nipsey Hussle +More

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

The Breakfast Club Sits Down With Ryan Coogler To Discuss 'Sinners,' Michael B. Jordan, Denzel, Chadwick Boseman, Nipsey Hussle. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Early in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning everybody, it's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne the guy, we are the Breakfast Club. Jess is out today, Lauren LaRosa filling in, and we got a special guest in the building He's back ladies and gentlemen Ryan Coogler. Welcome back, brother Man, it's nice to be here. How you feeling? I'm feeling good, bro. Good. We just um

Mary our movie last night. Um You know, so happy to happy to be at this stage of putting it out No, I'm happy to be here talking to y'all about to be at this stage of putting it out. And happy to be here talking to y'all about it. Sit is. Man, one thing about Ryan, no matter what Ryan is doing, no matter how long he in Hollywood, that Oakland do not get up out of it.

West Coast. You can hear, every time you talking about it, I feel like you about to ask me, what set I'm from? What set you got? Yo, we tripping, bro. We don't even... He's trying to take you off of Cooper. He's getting into himself now.

No, no, we ain't, we ain't, We ain't even gonna ask somebody that in Oakland, bro. That's the LA thing, asking somebody that, bro. They say. But how do you stay so grounded, though? You can hear the Oakland in you. You're doing movies that got $90 million budgets, but it don't change it. It's just my accent. This is how I talk, bro.

I can't change it. Yeah, it's like how Emmieity sound like he from New York. You know what I'm saying? It's just, I think what it is, it's not a lot of us from like that era. Like me and Marshawn about the same age. Okay. He another one?

Oakland, never leaving him? Dame, Dame literally quite younger than us, but he like of that era, but Dane a little bit younger. You know, it's a certain like every era of Oakland talks a little different. You know what I'm saying? Like my mom,

she talks very proper, but it also has a little bit of assault in it, a little more assault in it than us. And my grandmother, she's from, you know, born in Port Arthur, Texas. They moved to Oakland until she was 12. So she sounds completely like a Texan, you know what I'm saying?

And then it's like a class thing too, you feel me? Like, my little brothers, you know, we moved to Richmond. Like they don't remember, they don't really remember Oakland, you know what I'm saying? And we went to Catholic school, you feel me? So like, that action is slightly different from mine too, you know what I'm saying? Like my action, I know exactly where it's from,

the area it's from. It got locked in when I was like seven or eight years old. And it's funny, cause my mom's was, it's actually funny cause my mom remember when my accent started to change. Cause I started hanging out. She was like, hey man, you talking like them, you know what I'm saying, you talking like them outside,

you know what I'm saying, it's gonna get stuck like that. She was just like, hey. And it got stuck like that. So my whole life I never had to explain it, you know what I'm saying. But yeah bro, it's just a hard talk. I can't I can't talk about different I love you know me what it and go ahead. I was gonna say he mentioned sinners yesterday The preview was yesterday depending I should say so explain to people what sinners is about

I'm sure they seen the commercial they seen the trailers, but what is sinners about? Yeah, man. Um It's like the plot or? Yeah, the plot. Yeah, the plot. It's about two twin brothers who come home to their hometown in Clarksville, Mississippi after about seven years in Chicago. And they kinda, they're basically gangsters,

you know what I mean? And very notorious. And they come home and pick up their little cousin who's this blues prodigy, and they got plans of opening up a juke joint, which is like a black nightclub at that time. And so it's a 24 hour movie. They gather up all their friends from their past

who start this business, and then a vampire ends up showing up, and things go a little left. How difficult was it directing one actor for two different roles? Because Michael B. Jordan played the twin brother. I mean, it was, man, it was, yeah, I guess I wouldn't wanna talk about it like in terms of degree of difficulty, right?

But it was definitely complicated, you know what I'm saying? Like, but I got a great team, bro, I got great producers, fantastic visual effects department, you know? And we just came up with a plan on how to do it. I actually talked to a few filmmakers who had done things like it. You know, I was in conversation with Chris Nolan, who's a mentor of mine, and he did a similar thing.

He actually did a couple movies that had like kinda 20 elements. He did a movie called The Prestige, spoiler alert, it's a 20 element and that. And then he also did a movie called Tenet that came out right at the start of the pandemic with John David Washington. And because you got characters going back and forth in time,

like you got scenes with John David Washington fighting himself. So I talked to him a little bit. I was talking to him about just the format that we shot the film in, and we talked a little bit of Twin In Air 2, but it was another filmmaker I know named Sean Durkin who came up to Sundance route.

And he had just done a television series called Dead Ringers. It was a remake of a David Cronenberg film, And he had just done a television series called Dead Ringers. It was a remake of a David Cronenberg film, but it started Rachel Weisz as a twin gynecologist. You know what I'm saying? That identical twin gynecologist played by one actor. And I got on the phone with him for about,

we probably talked for about an hour on how they made that work. And he ran it down to me, kind of blow ball blow at things I should be thinking about. And I'll be forever grateful to Sean. I actually need to reach out to him. But yeah, it's very technical, but it's actually the hardest on Mike,

you know what I'm saying, to be honest with you. Because I'm near with the camera and trying to work it out. And some days it's more complicated. Then I don't know if y'all had a chance to see the film yet. That's a part of it. Part of it. Did you see it? Part of it. Part of it, okay.

Yeah, so for Michael, you know, you know, he had to embody two completely different people who were identical twins, which is a very like unique specific type of person, right? And on days where the twins were interacting, he would have to start the day as one character, go get changed and come back and then shoot another pass as the other character.

We had to cast a twin double, which is an actor who basically is the same build, shape, height, complexion as Mike to act across from him so he can know where to look. But some of these not talking to himself. Okay, so when I was watching it, because even the first time you see them on camera and they're standing next to each other,

and I'm like, okay, I know this is technology, but I'm like, as an actor, I know you kind of feed off of, it's very physical. So I was like, I wonder how Michael B. but I'm like, as an actor, I know you kind of feed off of like, it's very like physical. So I was like, I wonder how Michael B. Jordan, like what is he using to, cause their interaction is. Yeah. Now Lauren want the stunt double number. She was like, just like Michael, he built like.

She can't get the original, so she get the stunt double. Shout out the part she built. When they killed a snake in the back of the truck, even that, I'm like, I mean, that was something so small, but I'm like, you gotta know where your people are to know. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, how do they do that? I mean, look, a lot of work, man. You feel me? We did a lot of work, but the most, but real talk, the highest degree of difficulty was on Mike. Acting is an insanely difficult thing to do. You know what I'm saying? to be able to embody another human being.

You know, and in this case, he had to embody two of them that had an interdependent relationship on each other. Right? So we had to make sure that Percy could act, but also Mike had to know what he was gonna do because Percy is not Mike. You know what I'm saying? So you had to kind of like, you know,

we had to kind of walk through, all right, well, what would he do when he smoke all right, well what would he do when he smoke? All right, what would he do when he stack? We had to decide who should go first, you know what I mean? Because knowing that whoever goes second is going to have to really feed off where the first one was. They can't walk through the body of the other one even though they're not there. We got to map that out.

You know, it was very technical, bro. You know what I mean? But I was so impressed with what Mike was able to do, man. I think these two performances are his two best performances he's ever done. And I've been there for some of the great ones, I would say. I wasn't there for Jess Marshy, I wasn't there for John, for Jordan. You know, Creed 2 and Creed 3, I was a, Creed 12 was an executive producer, Creed 3 I produced.

But as far as like what I'm directing, right there standing next to the camera watching him, you know man, like straight up, like, you know, y'all haven't seen the movie, but it's two brothers, and these dudes is gangsters straight up, you know what I'm saying? Like old school gangsters, like the gangsters that, the gangsters gangsters straight up. You know what I'm saying? Like an old school gangster.

Like the gangsters that, the gangsters, we came up on her, you know, came up on her, you know what I mean? And World War I veterans and, you know, and one brother is far more gangster than the other one. You know what I mean? Well, you actually, it's funny because it was complicated because he's actually kind of cool.

Like constantly more cunning than anything. You got that funny story about Nelly, bro. You know what I'm saying? What you said, what you said. Nelly calmly told you, like I got a contingency for it. Everybody be like, yo, who's the person that came to the show that made you feel like they would really fuck you up?

I'm like, Nelly. And they're like, Nelly. Everybody be like, Nelly. It's because he had such a calm demeanor about him. So where I'm from Nelly. Yeah, they like Nelly. I'd be like Nelly It's because he had such a calm demeanor about so that so so where I'm from bro You know you had the guys I was you had the guys that was rah rah and in hi-hat They didn't last long You know I mean I got killed early with the jail early the dudes that the dudes that last the longest Is the dudes that I'll sit right there. Yep, and you don't even know they just decided they're gonna have you whacked. You know what I'm saying?

That's what was gangsta's. The real scary ones even in New York were the ones that didn't say much, real quiet, real calm. Those are the ones you had to be scared of. Yeah, so that's Smoke in the movie. And I'll never forget, bro, like day zero when we were shooting, he came to set out as Smoke and Ruth Carter, who's a legendary costumer, of course, she came up to me and I could tell she was a little bit flustered.

She was like, I got this jewelry, I got different, kind of of getting that costume together and she was saying like, and you got to look at it and tell me what you want him to have. I put both things on him. And she kind of was like, I could tell she kind of had a, so Mike walked up and I've been knowing Mike a long time, bro. You know what I mean? We homies, you feel me? And it's some of all his energy that's making my blood run bro. You know what I mean? We homies, you feel me? And in some of all his energy, he's making my blood run cold. You know what I mean?

And so I asked him the question that she want. It was something about a bracelet, if he wanted a bracelet or something or not. And I said, hey bro, do you want the bracelet on this arm for Smoke or this arm? And he said, I'm indifferent. But he said it in this deep Southern accent. You know what I'm saying? And I looked at him and I was like, oh shit. He's a character. He ain't a character.

He completely ain't like, he's completely somebody else, you know what I'm saying? And he had like a thousand yard stair, you feel me? And I was like, oh man, we gotta get to work. I put him right in the car and started shooting. I don't even know if I took the bracelet off or not. You know what I mean? Yeah.

How do you, well two questions. Was that always the original plan for Michael to play both those guys? Absolutely. Okay, so I guess you can't get in his mind, but how do you as a director prepare him to do two different roles? That's a great question, bro.

So, I mean, it's so deep to it, bro, but like, I don't know what neighborhood y'all from. Are you from Queens? Queens, yeah. Yeah, and then you're from South Carolina. Yes, sir. Yeah, so like I don't know what neighborhoods y'all from. You from Queens? Queens, yeah. Yeah, South Carolina? Yes sir. Yeah, so was there any like hood twins when y'all grew up? It's always a set of hood twins.

Okay. That's why I do this. What? Yeah, no. No, okay. Where you from? I'm from Delaware. I'm from Wilmington, Delaware.

Delaware, okay. Was it some? It was, yeah, actually God rest her soul. They just, because they still was getting into it, they just passed away this past summer. Yeah, together. Yeah, you knew somebody? Yeah, we had, I think, one set of twins, but a lot of brothers, but one set of twins.

Yeah, so you got brothers, right? You know what I'm saying? But then you got twins, like, so, like, we're all from a lot of hoods, you got twins. And that would be referred to as the twins. And then when you see them, you can't tell them apart, so a lot of people just call them twins. You know what I'm saying?

Like, I mean, but I used to think it was just like a West Coast thing, but then I seen this film called The Craze, and it was white twins. It was Cockney doing that thing. And I realized it was a whole thing, but in black culture, specifically West African culture, it's like a spiritual thing.

They're like twin deities out of the Yoruba religion, you know what I'm saying? And the Yoruba people overindexing fraternal twins. So as African Americans, we're more likely to have twins than other people, right? Oh, great. But with identical twins, they scientifically don't even understand how it happens. It's still a mystery of how that fertilized egg splits and why it does, right? And my mom's older sisters are identical twins, my Auntie Merlin and my Auntie Curlin. They in their 70s now and they live right next door to each other.

One of them is my godmother, you know what I'm saying? And the other one, I'm still super tightwit, but they are completely identical, you know what I'm saying? With my whole life growing up, I could tell which one was which just by looking at how they hold their face, you know what I'm saying? And what their energy is like when they walk into a room, right?

So it's something I've always been cognizant of, something I've always thought about, you know? And I always wanted to explore it. And with this movie, I wanted to hire some twin consultants for Mike to talk to. I got two homies named Noah and Logan Miller. They white dudes, but they from the Bay Area, from not far from where Poc went to high school, right?

And they real, like saw to the earth dudes, street dudes, and they became filmmakers, you know what I'm saying? Like I hustled the hard way, didn't go to film school and none of that. And I hit them up and they was down, they was like, yeah, we talked to him about it. And bro was mind blowing, man. They would write up these kind of journals, you know what I mean, for him to kind of look at and study.

And they would kind of explain the mindset of an identical twin. And what I learned that was also fascinating was that when identical twins, siblings pass, like they don't live long after. You know what I'm saying? Like it's one of those things where it's such a symbiotic relationship.

You know what I'm saying? That you start from in utero with this person. You know what I'm saying? That you start from in utero with this person. You know what I mean? And you go through the world being othered. You know what I'm saying? I was also talking about how people would oftentimes play a game trying to tell them apart. And how dehumanizing that is for them.

You know what I'm saying? It's something that they eventually get used to. But they work with Mike, it really helped me work with who these characters are. I got to know my friends better, bro. I know I've been going for a while, but one funny thing I realized with them, I've been knowing them for over a decade.

You talking about Noah and Logan? Noah and Logan, yeah, I've been knowing them for over a decade, and I had him come over to my house in the bay just to kind of work through some stuff before they sat down on mic and I'll never forget this. They came and sat down on my couch and they sit side by side. They're completely identical, right? You'll notice this about identical twins who rolling around.

A lot of times they'll be touching each other. I'm looking and I say, hey man, I notice y'all like touching each other, y'all close enough to each other to touch. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, when y'all sit side by side like that, is that for me or is that for y'all? And they say, it's for you.

Right, and I'm like, so y'all don't need to be next to each other? They're like, nah. They was like, but it freaks people out when we not. You know, and you know, cause, cause, cause, you know, so it's like a thing like how you, how, you know, in old school, when you shake hands, you show both hands. That's how they, that's how they approach the world.

And they say, as soon as we have a problem with somebody, like if we feel like, if we feel under threat, or something like your physical, the first thing they do is split up. So that you can't, so that you have to turn your head to see the other one. So then I was like, hey, have y'all ever had a like have you ever had a one-on-one and they said only with each other So it's so frightful a whole life. I've been jumping people I have a question about the movie just here you say that and I don't know if maybe I might be digging too deep

But tell me this is a thing the first time we see Michael B. Jordan in the role, they're side by side. And then the first time we see one of the twins, I think it's Smoke, have an issue where the men in the back of the truck, he by himself. Is that from that? Like that, okay. You be really doing this thing.

Like, just hearing the back, like the inspiration. Yeah, it's like that conversation, because I have friends that are twins too, and I never thought about that. Well, yeah, like so that's the other thing we learned about these symbiotic relationships. It's like, when you get them by themselves, the individual differences come out and become more.

Prevalent. become more prevalent. And the thing with Smoke and Stack is the whole dynamic, I don't want to ruin the movie, man. Comes out April 18th. Yeah, but the dynamic between them is one, is inherently more violent and more practical. The other one is a kinder person. The situation, she's talking about smokes by himself and catches somebody trying to steal from him.

And Stacks not there to be like, hey, let him ride. But Stack also needs smoke because he's too lax, you know what I mean, and too calm. So you see the issues that arise with that when they split up for about 20, 25 minutes in a movie. What made you wanna do this movie? Was it the complexity of what you're talking about or what caught you with this movie?

There's some family ties, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, man, I can talk about all of it here. It's the best place to talk about, man. Thank y'all for inviting me. Because y'all get all of this. So look, I had an uncle named Uncle James Edmondson. And he was born and raised in Mississippi,

but then fled to Oakland when he was like in his 20s. but then fled to Auckland when he was like in his 20s. You know, so that's where I was born. And we probably like the second wave of the great migration, right? You know, and he was basically like the oldest member of my family, oldest male member of my family for a long time. And when my parents couldn't afford to buy a house

in Auckland, we ended up moving to Richmond, which is, you know, essentially like Newark I was a real member of my family for a long time. And my parents couldn't afford to buy a house in Oakland. We ended up moving to Richmond, which is essentially like Newark would be here in New York, right? If Oakland was Brooklyn. And shortly after we moved, my Uncle James, his family moved. They was like down the block from me. So I would go spend time with him.

I wanted to get out the house. I could walk to his house. And all he would do when he was off from work is he would listen to, he would either watch the San Francisco Giants game on TV, or he would listen to it on the radio if it wasn't televised, he would drink all Taylor whiskey and play blues records on vinyl.

You know what I'm saying? And I came to associate that music with him. I didn't think about the music. You know, for me, it was, you know what I'm saying? It was rapping R&B, right? about the music, for me it was rapping R&B, right? But in 2015, he ended up passing away, and he got sick while I was making Creed.

So I was like, I was in Philly for most of the time while he was sick, then I had to go to LA, you know what I'm saying, and do post-production, and I got the call that he died while I was like, I don't know, like picture locking or something. And I felt like shit, bro. Can I cuss on this? Yeah, of course.

Yeah, I felt like shit, bro. I remember being in the hallway with my wife who produced this movie, Sinners, and just feeling like, bro, what the fuck am I doing, man? I'm not at home with my, you know what I'm saying? I'm like in a hallway in the middle of LA, in some dirty production facility, you know what I'm saying? And I'm at home for the funeral,

but I never reckoned with that feeling of not being there with somebody who was so important to me. And so I would find myself, when I was thinking about him, playing like all blues records, you feel me? And when I would listen to him, was thinking about him playing all blues records. You feel me? And when I would listen to him, it was like if I closed my eyes, it was like he was there with me. You know what I'm saying? The power of music to be able to do that, right?

And so you got that. There was another element to it. So I've been making films based on other things, basically my whole career, right? Like my first feature film was Fruitville. And I was based on a real thing that happened, you know what I'm saying, where I'm from, right? And it's only so many ways you tell that story.

And I was trying to tell it the way that had the most integrity for where I'm from and for his family and for who that young man was who was murdered by that police officer. And then I was forced to make a movie in the Rocky Universe, right? You know what I'm saying? A movie about Apollo creating his son and like I hired for the Black Panther right? You know what I'm saying? A movie about Apollo creating the sun

and like I hired for the Black Panther movies, you know what I'm saying? So these are all stuff based on other things. So I'm on Panther 2 and it's taken a long time. We had a lot of experience, a lot of tragedy, a lot of misfortune. It's a lot of shit that wasn't just us, by the way. It was during the global pandemic, you know what I'm saying?

And, you know, tragically lost our actor. So I had to, yeah, rest in peace. So I had to refigure that out, you know what I'm saying? And keep it together with everybody who was involved. Still wanted to make something. And our lead actress, lovely Letitia Wright, was injured on set, had to shut down for that.

Omicron shut us down in Atlanta. Ended up being like a four year movie, bro. Wow. And I remember we was going through maybe the worst of it, man. And what would get me through, you know, while I was out there, was listening to some of my favorite artists, bro.

And I was listening to a lot of Nip, Rest In Peace, and I was listening to a lot of Dolph. Rest In Peace, Lord, mercy, God. When I was listening to Dolph, bro, it wasn't Rest In Peace yet, bro. Wasn't Rest In Peace yet. And I'll never forget, bro, I think it was November 17th, 2021. I'm in Byron, Georgia, bro.

And I see my first cotton field, driver seen in my life. Wow. We riding and I saw it. I told the driver, hey man, pull over. You know what I'm saying? Bounced out, I had never seen one before. You know what I mean?

Was the driver white? Nah, he was not. I'm just making sure. He probably was like, yes, finally. I'm trying to get them back here. Nah, he was not, bro. on the show. He probably was like, yes, finally. I'm trying to get them back here. But he was like, nah, he'll not, bro. What was our driver's name, baby? Craig.

Oh, Craig. Yeah. Yeah, he was always, shouts out to Craig, man. Black man from, Craig from New York. Yeah, Craig from New York. OK. Black man from New York. But shit, we was working out in Atlanta, right? Like, it's where everybody was making their movies, you know what I mean?

But I'm in a burning, bop down show, bro. And I literally went into the field just to see it, bro. I was having like a crazy ash, you know what I'm saying? Mom, it was like... What that felt like? Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. What that felt like? Um... Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith! And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, d***less version of me.

And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing. A lot of bad language. It's for adults only.

Or listen to it with your kid. Could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out. It's a work in progress. Listen to Beardless, listen to me on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Keeping on a rockin I couldn't describe it. I couldn't describe it broke cuz like I felt guilty. Um, I Felt like you know, I've been on this show brought talking about going to Africa, you know what I'm saying? And I wanted to get tapped in with my ancestors. But then it was my ancestors, 400 years we moved. This is my ancestors, 100 years we moved. Hadn't been there, hadn't seen it. So it was like an overwhelming sense of guilt more than anything, right? And I took something, you know?

And I believe that day I was when I heard he was murdered. Duff. You know, and I was, I had never met this dude. I had never met Nick, you know what I'm saying? But I felt like I had never met this dude. I had never met Nip, you know what I'm saying? But I felt like I knew him, you know what I'm saying? Like from the music and I remember being like, man, fuck this. Like, cause you gotta keep in mind,

I was in the Bay bro, going to football practice with my homies when we heard Pac die. And we was CPAC, you know what I'm saying? Like it shut the bay, bro, going to football practice with my homies, we heard Pac-Dot. And we were CPAC, you know what I'm saying? Like it shut our whole football practice down. The mamas was crying, the coaches was crying. And I'm like, bro, as a fan of this music, bro, bro, it's been a lifetime of this shit, bro. Like being in Philly on Creed and hearing

that the Jack of the Rest in Peace got killed, you know what I'm saying? Or that Kick the Jacker rest in peace got killed, you know what I'm saying? Or that Kick the Sneak got shot in the back, he paralyzed. I'm like, my homies out there that came up and was rapping, y'all never heard of, you feel me? And I'm like, bro, I can't listen to this music right now, bro, I gotta take a break. And I remember venting to my producer who was from Central California, he's from college,

black man but from a different culture there. And I say, man, I say, bro, what kind of music is here, bro? Where the artist talks about how to navigate where they from, how to escape all the demons they dealing with, man. They succeed, get to their 30s, and still fall victim to this shit, bro. What music exists like this? I was saying that, like, he looked at me,

he's a smart dude, Nae Moore, he looked at me, bro, and like, in a real empathetic way, he considered it, and he was like, he was like, man, my favorite music like that, I said, what music is that? He said, man, grunge music. I said, huh? He said, yeah, man, he said, we just lost Chris Cornell, said, man, grunge music. I said, huh? He said, yeah, man. He said, we just lost Chris Cornell, bro.

He was in his 50s. Yeah, they overdosed a lot. Yeah, he was like, all that music is about struggling with that demons depression and trying to kick dope. You know what I mean? They end up, you know, they get all the money in the world, stand up dying in hotel rooms. You know?

I said, damn. You know, and what's crazy is, in the bay, our biggest radio station is 106.1 came here, and the only rock song I ever played on that station, bro, coming up was Nirvana, was Smell Like Teen Spirit. So I was like, man, let me dig in into this grunge music, bro, I'm gonna take a break from, you know what I'm saying, from rapping, I'm gonna listen to some grunge.

And I started listening to it, bro, and I was like, man, this shit sound like what my uncle used to play. Like, I was listening to it, bro. And I was like, man, this shit sound like what my uncle used to play. Like I was listening to her. I was listening to her. The jazz he used to play? No, no, the blues. Like it's literally, like I'm listening to it. I'm listening to the guitar riffs

and like what they talking about and like the passion they singing with. And I'm like, that's odd. Man, I dug into the research, man. And that's exactly what it is. You know what I'm like, that's odd. Man, I dug into the research, man. And that's exactly what it is. You know what I'm saying? It's just blues music sung by white people. You know what I'm saying?

And that was when I was like, and this is like within the same 24 hours. You know what I'm saying? That's when I was like, man, it's sharecropping blues, That's when I was like, man, sharecropping, blues, the evolution of it, the racist origins of genre as a concept, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm like, I think it's a movie in this, you know? And I'm just a big horror movie fan, bro.

I like horror in all its facets. And nobody really knew that about me, you know what I'm saying? Just because of the movies that I made. So I put that with it too, and this is how we got centered, if that makes sense. That's dope. I wanna say rest in peace to Nip,

because it was the 60th anniversary of his passing like last week. I also wanna say rest in peace to Dolph. There's something going on with Dolph energetically. I don't know what it is, because I've been listening to Young Dolph a lot in the past 48 hours, and I've been saying, damn, on with Dolph energetically. I don't know what it is, because I've been listening to Young Dolph a lot in the past 48 hours. And I've been saying, damn I miss Dolph.

And I've been telling my wife and my cousin, who's my trainer, I'm like, y'all want some new Dolph music. And I don't know why I've been saying that the last 48 hours. I can show you my playlist. And how much Dolph I've been listening to the last 48 hours. Nah, he got me through.

Yeah, rest in peace with Dolph. Look bro, like Nip, I just talked to Black Sam the other day, but Nip, RIP, bro. Me and my wife was going through a tough time, bro, when we released Panther 1. And like the whole, it was really an odd experience because from the outside end, we was on top of the world, right? And we was in a certain extent. But personally, It was really an odd experience, because from the outside in, we was on top of the world, right? And we was, to a certain extent. But personally, we was going through some shit.

And I'll never forget, bro, shit was so heavy that, you know, we normally fly to Bay to LA, like an hour flight, you feel me? But I was like, man, let's rent a car and let's drive up to Highway 1. Because our whole lives we've been hearing about how beautiful Highway 1 is.

So let's rent a car, let's drive up Highway 1. See this coast everybody been talking about our whole lives, you feel me? And she was like, all right bet. So we put all our, finished the movie, put all our, we went to Ava DuVernay's, Wrinkling Time Screening, because that's our sister, you feel me? Knocked that off, and then we was like,

let's get back to the crib. So we up the coast, bro. Man, Victor, you like, ooh, all right, ooh, all right. Turn off, man, spin it back, right? And I always associate him with the feeling of healing that album brought us in that time, you know what I'm saying? And my association with him was, one of my best friends was down from,

he did it roughly 10 years, but he went in when I was in film school, came out the year Black Panther came out. And I stayed tapped in with him, money on his books, and they were transferring him all over the country. Every time he transferred him, he was like, bro, I need all my Nip albums, bro. I need them all, so I had to rebuy him,

marathon, I had to find him. And I got to find it on the prison system. You know what I'm saying? And Nip got him through his incarceration. You feel me? So yeah, bro, when you listening to somebody, you feel like you know them, bro. You know, it's just a different type of,

y'all do radio, right? People probably listening to y'all every morning think y'all they best friends. It's that type of get down, man. And I showed the movie to another filmmaker, Mahoney Calamatic, who's from LA. Did the house party film and did the White Man Can't Jump sequel and amazing music video director just did the Scrabble Up video. Right? Shawtym Sinners, first thing he said to me, man, he said seeing them two dudes, it felt

like Nip and Sam. You know what I'm saying? And I wasn't even thinking about the fact that these two, you know what I'm saying? These two brothers like, hey bro, we gonna get it. You know what I'm saying, these two brothers, like, hey bro, we gonna get it, you know what I'm saying? Like when he said that to me, bro, that shit hit me on a different level, because I was like, okay, yeah.

Okay, maybe my cinematic language is getting to where it need to be, because I'm putting things in that I'm feeling that I'm maybe not even thinking about, you know what I'm saying? And that's crazy, because when they talk about sinners, they talk about how you're genre blending, right? They call it horror, drama, and everything else.

But you gotta put hip hop in there too. Oh, it's all over there. When you see the movie. It felt like even in the way that the smoke and his brother, what's his brother's name? Smoke and his brother. Stack. Stack, smoke and stack. Even the way that they maneuver,

and the way that they move. It's small stuff in there, and I'm hearing you say that it wasn't purposefully, I guess, but even the way he they maneuver and the way that they move. It's small stuff in there, and I'm hearing you say that it wasn't purposefully, I guess, but even the way he pulls out his gun and stuff like that, it's so much to it. And when I was watching the parts that I did see of it, I was just sitting here thinking like, wow, I wonder how many times you sit and watch it

and you catch something different every single time. Because it's layered and I think some of it is not on purpose. Does that happen to you still? Yeah. Yeah, I oftentimes catch things with this movie especially because it was so personal, you know what I'm saying? And I become a more experienced filmmaker, you know what I mean?

And I'll be like, oh, I was doing that. I didn't realize it. And the other thing that happens, man, when you work on... Because our art form is a tricky one, right? For instance, the young, great legend Rod Wave watched the movie and then went and knocked out a song for us in a day, inspired by the film. And since it's a song, I'm like, yo, this shit's done. You know what I'm saying?

Like, you know, like, there's nothing else we can do, do for this, we can't touch it. Took him, took him a night, you know? Bro, we working the years, right? And what's crazy is, you know, you're not even the same person in four months, you know what I'm saying? I've written a screenplay and then got to the last day

of shooting and I'm looking at the script like, what the fuck was I, who wrote this? I often say that, like man, what was I thinking? And I'm trying to get back into my own head from time past. And you know, we're editing the film and mixing the sound and sometimes I'll be like, oh, that's what I meant. You know what I'm saying?

Oh, like that's what this is, you feel me? But yeah, I still see things, man. And this wasn't based on anything like direct. So you pull from yourself, you know what I'm saying? So I see a lot of myself in it. I had to Google that when I was watching it. Like, is this based on a true story? Because it felt so, but the opening scene too,

the center of the opening scene is the black church. Yeah. And it was such a powerful scene. And then you backtrack into like a completely different version of that character. Can you talk about the choice to, I don't want to give it away, but like I thought that that was like really powerful the way that you did it.

Talk about that easy work. Yeah so when I was doing I did a lot of research on a movie the two like the big work research workhorses for me were two books. Leroy Jones is blues people Leroy Jones would later change his name to Amiri Baraka but when you find that when when you're looking for that text, it'll be, because when you publish it, it was Leroy Jones, it'll generally be published in the right. That's a black man, black intellectual talking about the blues culture. And then there's another book called Deep Blues by a musicologist named Robert Palmer, a white dude, you know what I'm saying,

talking about blues music. Both incredible books, man, but in researching all those books and learning about the great Delta blues musicians, you know, and it started with a guy named Charlie Patton, essentially. And it started on the Dockery Farms plantation in Mississippi, is where they kind of,

where they feel like the first true Delta blues song as it's known was played, right? But in his lineage, there comes Tommy Johnson, who was the first dude to run around and say he sold his soul to the devil to learn how to play. You know, it was Robert Johnson, who is the more known dude to kind of say he sold his soul to the devil to learn how to play. You know, it was Robert Johnson, who is the more known dude to kind of say he sold his soul to the devil to play.

I remember those stories. Yeah, yeah, and in between there's a dude named Son House, who essentially outlived all those guys. And what you learn is almost every single last one of these dudes not only came out of the church, but their daddies was preachers. It was like almost constant. And what I realized is, I'm like, oh, the African orator, you know what I'm saying?

That's a long line from the griot, you know what I'm saying, to raw wave today, you know what I'm saying? And like that, it's all versions of the same thing. The preacher at the pulpit, you know what I'm saying? And you know, the musicality of the black preacher, most known with Martin Luther King Jr., right? You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, the, ah, ah, ah, ah, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, the, ah, ah, ah, you know what I'm saying?

Like the animation, you feel me? Like that's all from the continent, but it was deeply refined in the, you know what I'm saying? In the American South, you know what I mean? And, you know, the best blues musicians basically came out of the church, and the blues was known as the devil's music. You know what I'm saying?

It was a huge dichotomy, like a lot of anxiety and judgment out of that, and a lot of guilt. You know what I'm saying? Those would be huge substance abusers. Son House would basically go like, five years drinking and playing blues music, five years sober and preaching.

Five years drinking and playing blues music, 10 years sober and preaching. Five years drinking and playing blues music, 10 years sober and now you got his own church. You know what I'm saying? It was that kind of cycle. So that's why we started it like that. They say you gotta go at 9.50, but I got three questions I gotta ask you. Is it 9.50 yet, P?

Like two minutes. Different energy brings different things out of people. What did Chadwick Boseman bring out of you that Michael B. Jordan does? different things out of people. What did Chadwick Boseman bring out of you that Michael B. Jordan does? Man, so that's a fucking fantastic question, bro. It's a fantastic question.

Cause I just had to, bro, doing this press tour, you know, cause out of all of my actors, bro, out of all of my actors, Chad's death actually hit Mike the Harge, you know? And I never had to talk about that. But we were doing press together now, and look man, Chad was older than us, bro. Like, he was quite a bit older than us.

Even though he looked like he was the same age, he was not, you know, so I was a fully baked man from the south, you know what I'm saying? Like he was an old school, he was an old school man's man. And compared to that dude, when we worked together, bro, me and Mike was kids. What Chad taught me, bro, he changed my life, bro. But he was the kind of teacher who you never knew you was getting a lesson when he taught. You know what I'm saying? It was all by example.

You know what I'm saying? And what he gave me and Michael was patience. He moved at an old school pace and he took his time, he was always early. You know what I'm saying? He was that type of dude, bro. You know what I'm saying? And I think that, I don't think Mike would be it.

Look man, I told him Mike, and Mike will tell you this, I told him, man, I said, hey bro, what would Chad do? You know what I'm saying? In this role, if he had this role, what would he do? You know, because Chad never broke accent. You know what I'm saying? He was talking in an African accent, bro.

You put me up for dinner at nine o'clock. I remember the Disney executives came to see us on Panther like week two, and he pulled up, and it was, it was, it was the child's accent. Hey, man, what's going on? They was freaked out. And I said, don't be freaked out, he working, man. That's how he, he don't turn it off till we rock.

You know what I'm saying? And no shame or embarrassment in that, but that's how he was moving, you know what I'm saying? And for Mike to see that, to see that up close, to have to do scenes across from that, and for me to be able to say that to him, you know what I'm saying? Like he's transitioning to become an ancestor,

and say, hey bro, what would the big homie do? You know what I'm saying? Like, boom, locked in. You know what I'm saying? And look, bro, like, the difference is, man, look, man won't ever be another child, bro. You feel me? Like, so that's the difference.

It's like asking somebody, hey bro, what was it like to suit up across from Mike Jordan? You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, it made you a better Hooper, I bet. You know what I'm saying? And that's what it was, you know what I mean? And we got no more, we know what we gotta go. Yeah, do you, hey, I don't know where I wanna go.

Do you- You gotta come back, Ry. There's so much we gotta discuss. I can't do this without you, Ry. There's so much to know. You don't get to tell. As long as you donall have me, bro. I just want something to sell.

I want to tell people, go see the movie in theaters, bro. Sinners. I guess I'll stay on Chad a little bit, because I recently saw a video where Denzel was speaking about his first time seeing Black Panther. He said it made him feel like he could pass the torch because of you, because of Mike. It was so much deeper than Denzel at every sight, deeper than Danzela ever said because he's humble. Look man, Chairo was at Howard University, bro, and he was maybe the fucking most brilliant actor

that ever come through there, bro. And Felicia Rashad knew it. He was there to be a filmmaker. And Felicia Rashad wanted to send him to England, where they really do it. It would be the equivalent of a Hooper in, it's Victor Wimbenyama, right? You in Paris, bro.

We finna send you to go Hooper LeBron. We finna send you to the States. You know what I'm saying? It'd go really 82 game season against where basketball is life, you know what I'm saying? In the UK, acting is life. You know what I'm saying? That's where it's at, right?

Felicia was like, I wanna get you to Oxford. I wanna get you on stage in London. Shout out from Anderson, South Carolina, right? Felicia like, man, don't worry, I'm gonna find somebody to take care of you. Calls to Denzel, Denzel says, I wanna take care of it for the kid, but all I want them to know is me,

and I don't wanna know nothing about it. Wow. Wow. Right? Felicia said, hey, we got a donor for you. Sends him off to Oxford. He goes and shuts the shit down. Comes back, Chadwick bodes me. Right? You know what I'm saying?

Later on in his career, Felicia puts him to the side and said, hey, man, I was Denzel that paid for that. Wow. Wow. Chadwick seized Denzel and passion for years and years and years and years and years. It's the patience I'm talking about. Knew it wasn't time to tell him yet, right? We premiered in LA,

premiered in New York. Denzel said, I can pull up. He was doing brawl, I think he was doing the Iceman Cometh or something.zel said, I can pull up. He was doing Broadway, I think he was doing the Iceman coming up or something. He said, I can pull up. I said, I bet. I tell my actress, I said, hey Denzel coming tonight. She had to immediately pull me to the side

and say, I gotta talk to him before they go in and watch. And I said, what's going on? He whispered in my ear, bro, I gotta thank you for something. You know what I'm saying? So Denzel pull up, man. He don't like to be, he's not a Hollywood person, crazy enough. He wanted to come in through the back door.

He don't want to do the carpet. You know, he dresses very down. And so I grabbed him, I said, man, somebody want to talk to you? Put him to the side, my wife was there. It was me, Zenzzi, and Denzel and Chad in a room in a DJ theater in New York, right here in Manhattan. And Denzel pull up, I was me, Zenzzi, and Denzel and Chad in a room in a DJ theater in New York, right here in Manhattan. And Denzel pulled up, I was like,

hey man, what's going on? You know, and Chad whispering in his fucking ear and shit, but that was me, and thanked him. Bruh. That's why Denzel was crying, you know what I'm saying? When he watched the movie, like, it was because of that. And for me, I don't think it's gonna drop.

I think I got it. You got it? I think so. Look, I grabbed one too, I thought that I'm laughing. You two ain't gonna fall. So, so, so, so, so, so, so. That's the, look man, do you know how many actors, bro? As soon as they would've got on,

they would've went on the show and said, yeah man, Denzel paid for me to go to Oxford. Do you know how many articles they would've got out of that? Yeah. 42 press run, I'm Jackie Robinson. Oh yeah, man, by the way, Denzel paid for me to, nah, I told him to his, I told him to his. That's real.

That's why it's almost impossible for you to even think about recasting a TikTok. Yeah, no. No, it's not, it's not, it's not. I mean, it's... Well, with the multiverse, it makes it a little... I mean, we talk about that next time. Next time. Yeah. Well, can I ask one more question about Sinners?

And it's really about Mike, because the relationship you and Mike have, I think does not get enough credit, I really don't. Like y'all are unity and group operation personified. Do y'all have a symbiotic relationship? Or was it immediate or did it develop over time? It developed bro, like I liken it to a quarterback and a wide out. I play receiver in college football.

It's like that, it gets to the point where we got a shorthand and we hold each other accountable. We also push each other. We're not trying to do the same thing we did before. You know, we not gonna show up and go through the motions. We trying to show up and get bigger and better each time. But the thing about B-Brother, keep it up, man. The thing I love most about Mike is his kindness, bro.

Like he's the number one on the call sheet, big old giant fucking movie star. He's incredibly kind to everybody on set. Fokker knows the AD's name, knows the PA's name. Don't come on the set, hey don't look me in the eye. Never raises his voice at anybody. And he works his ass off. So it sets a tone for everybody that

you're gonna be respectful. You're gonna be respectful to the PA up top, to the producer, you're gonna respect respectful. You're gonna be respectful to the PA up top, to the producer, you're gonna respect women. You know what I'm saying? Like we're gonna be kind. You know what I mean? We're not gonna, you know, because on a film set can get gnarly.

You know what I mean? If you don't set the right tone, right? So for me, I'm gonna always, he always gonna have a job if I'm making something. You know what I'm saying? Are you a good person? Even when you see him in his element, he'll take pictures with kids,

he'll stop to take pictures to speak to older people, especially when he in Jersey, it's 10 times worse. We gonna be all in Newark tonight for a screening. Yeah, yeah, he's like really like that. He just don't like Charlamagne, but besides that. What happened? That's not true. Charlamagne always messing with him

about the type of women he like. Man, that me and Mike good, cut it out. He don't like Charlamagne. I don't know about that. It's crazy how he has that. All this nice fullness of emotion, and here you come so dark. That's me and Mike. That's you and me. No, he's a good, I've seen him in his element, All this nice fullness of emotion and here you come so dark.

That's Envy. That's you. No, it's just. He's a good guy. I've seen him in his element. We ain't good. I just messed with him a couple times about the white women he was dating. I'll stay away from that.

Oh, that's crazy. Don't let Dr. Umar down. That's all. Nothing crazy. He said nothing crazy. Well, no, he's a good, he's a good individual. One last thing. I promise you one last thing.

This is it. You said that three times ago. Okay. How do you accept an apology from Denzel Washington? Because he said he apologized to you. He's a goody-doody-doo. One last thing. I promise you one last thing. This is it. You said that three times ago, but okay. How do you accept an apology from Denzel Washington? Because he said he apologized to you. That's the OG. Do you even accept?

Nah, he either get mad at him. No, man. Nah, man. I'm blessed to have him in my life, bro. Like straight up, man. And I'm blessed to have him in my life, bro. Like straight up, man. And I'm blessed through having him, I get Pauletta. Who he was a bigger blessing. You know what I'm saying?

Who I just seen last night. Yeah, man, he ain't no apology, bro. Him saying that we gonna work together, apologize for that. It's crazy. That's what I'm saying. When he called you, you just- He was just like, more than anything,

he was like, hey bro, did I say too much? Like it wasn't, I said too much, man. I didn't mean to make it hard. I'm like, nah, you good, you good. Then y'all are just happy to hear from me, man. You FaceTime me in a whole hype, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, I'm blessed, bro, to be able to, you know, to have these mentors, bro.

Like, I feel like God looks after me, bro, to be able to have these mentors. I feel like God looks after me, bro, when I lose, when I gain one. I started off talking about just losing my uncle, right? I'm the oldest of three brothers. I've been looking for big brothers my whole life. And when I gain, people who can give me any type of mentorship or advice, and it's the most incredible blessing. So apologies, man.

And I think one of the eight things, he just wanted to make sure that he ain't speak out of school with how intense all of the comic book stuff can get. You know what I'm saying? We need you, Ryan. I mean, you know, with the way they trying to erase our history out here, we need brothers like you that represent black culture. I need y'all, Ryan. I mean, you know, with the way they trying to erase our history out here, we need brothers like you that represent,

you know, black culture. I need y'all, bro. I need y'all. Y'all work ethic in the relationship. Y'all done built up with the audience, you know what I'm saying, the trust. So I can tell them to go see Sinners. That's right.

April 18th, go see them in IMAX. Cause that's how we shot it on film, on big giant IMAX cameras and super wide ultra panavision, 70 millimeter for the first time. You know, you're gonna see people all shades and colors on the screen, on a movie or roller coaster ride, emotional players like a rock concert,

you know what I'm saying? And because of the work that y'all do, you feel me? We able to come and tell people about what we got going on, man. So we need each other, you feel me? Absolutely. We'll definitely go check it out. April 18th, Sinners, ladies and gentlemen. Ryan Coogler, thank you for joining us.

Thank y'all, bro. And don't be a stranger. You in town, come on up here. Let it up. All right. It's The Breakfast Club. Good morning. Wake that ass up. Early in the morning.

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