The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Sarah Jakes Roberts Talks 'Power Moves,' Early Motherhood, Removing Wig During Preach, Church + More

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

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Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, Charlamagne Tha God. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Come on now. We have Sarah Jake Roberts.

Welcome. Thank you. How you feeling? I feel good. I'm a little tired, but I'm glad to be here. Okay. Good. You're always dressed to the nines.

I'm trying to feel a little something. You got a stylist? I do. Okay, okay. Jason Bowling. Yeah, we've been working together for almost 10 years okay i thought you was just praying and putting it together yourself but the new book power moves ignite your confidence and become a force where did the

inspiration for the book come from it really started about five years ago whenever i'd finished speaking people would always tell me like that was was so powerful. You're so powerful. But I didn't really feel powerful. Like I'd be in the fight of my life up there. And I started just asking God, like, what does it mean to truly be powerful? And I feel like God just revealed to me that it has so much to do with obedience and authenticity. But not only that, that power is a flow. And so what makes me powerful when I'm preaching is different than what makes me powerful as a mother.

So I started digging into the fluidity of power and this notion that power moves and embracing that from season to season really started resonating with me. I saw you preaching yesterday and you said something to the extent of being in control is not power. Control is not power. Yeah. What does that mean? Okay, so whenever we lose our sense of safety, I think our initial response is to try and control as much as we can after that instead of really surrendering to whatever the moment is trying to teach us and discovering the power, the wisdom, the lessons,

and that we control it. And as a result of that, we end up closing ourselves out, not just from whatever God's trying to teach us in the moment, but sometimes dynamic relationships that can be helpful to us. And so balancing this idea of vulnerability and openness so that power can flow through us, I think should be the goal of anyone who really wants to effect change in the world. I do have a question. This is going to sound stupid, but I just want people to understand where you came from and and how you got into faith I know you were here last time so for people that's no she's never been in studio yes she has no it was on I was doing a pandemic so for people that don't know that they automatically assume

that your dad was in it was is into religion that's what got you into it but you had a different start with you so let's talk about that a little bit first so how did you start and how did you get to where you at now and and the fact that you had your first child at 14 and let's let's talk about that a little bit first. How did you start and how did you get to where you're at now? And the fact that you had your first child at 14. And let's break that all down. And he's in the studio. And he's in the studio. Like a grown man.

That's right. He's a grown man. What a full beard. He's not though. Don't give him that much gas. He don't need that. That's a child over there. Yeah, so my dad has been in ministry my whole life.

And growing up when I was growing up in church, like we were at church every single day of the week. And you either found a spot, you were in the choir, you were dancing, you were doing something, or you were like me and you were sitting in a corner somewhere. And I can remember my siblings telling me like, you won't go to hell. Like you can't shout on beat, you can't clap, like you won gonna go to hell. And I was like, you might be right. Because what I'm listening to on the radio, like what's resonating with me, it doesn't align with what's being preached.

And so I never really felt like I had a sense of belonging within faith. And then when my father's ministry kind of took off, I didn't know where I fit within the dynamic of our family at all. And so I tried to find myself, a 13 year old trying to find herself is going to be open to anything. And so I tried to find myself. A 13-year-old trying to find herself is going to be open to anything. And so I got pregnant at 13. I had my son at 14, which just further confirmed to me, like, you're not one of the good girls.

And so I spent probably 10 years of my life just being like, all right, faith isn't for me. God's not for me. I'm going to figure out what's happening outside. And I got to this space after this traumatic experience in my first marriage where I almost got arrested and I was defending the right to keep my kids. And I was like, I have tried literally everything. I might as well just try faith. And I wasn't trying to build a platform. I was trying to build myself. And I started

blogging about all of my experiences and it turns out that there were like other women who felt maybe forgotten by church felt like because they didn't feel that way like especially because your dad was in ministry did you feel like his church forgot about you especially that being your dad and it's hard like knowing what I know now it's hard to say because I felt so much shame from having a teen pregnancy that I'm sure that there were people who were like still loving on me. But I couldn't cut through the idea of like during purity culture, the height of purity culture, you didn't got pregnant like this. It just doesn't align. And I don't know, because even my father is surprised that my life has turned in this direction. So I'm not sure if anyone thought that I was going to be the girl talking about Jesus.

But I tried it for myself and I started started sharing it with these other misfits. And it turns out there were a lot of us back-road churchgoers who were there because we had to be but didn't fit in. And I was able to give them a voice and a language through trying to find my own voice and language, and it's resonated with them. What level of ratchet were you on, a scale of like one you on a scale of like well at the end of the day the day's gotta end i don't know i don't i don't even know how to answer that question but i mean i i was not

i was not outside like i was not trying to be the good girl at all like I embraced this idea of like you can just do your own thing and try anything so I mean I did quite a few things it's interesting to hear you say uh the bishop was surprised to see how things turned out because I'm sure him and you know the first lady was praying over you and asking God to turn you around it would make sense right yeah but I mean I have always been very strong-willed I've always been my own person and so I think that they were praying but just like we pray and we like I don't know if you answer this prayer we'll see how it happens I don't think that they were for sure knowing that things were absolutely going to

turn around even if they did turn around I don't think anyone anticipates like oh she's going to be in ministry because that's not necessarily a turnaround like maybe she'll figure out who God is but this fact that she's also going to be in ministry and helping others that was a wild card nobody saw coming I do have a question and this is something that we talk about a lot of pay me and my wife been arguing about this well not arguing but having a conversation about this I feel sometimes when especially when people play with the church right and I'll tell you why I say play with the church they come off like uh very church holier than thou right so when they speak a lot of people actually believe it and listen because they feel like they study they go through it they read the

bible etc etc etc but also you realize that person is not a good person so where do you cross the lines of somebody uh i would say taking on an assignment doing something positive I think you spoke about it earlier somebody giving a message opposed to who they are as a person like can somebody give a message and be an effed up person yeah I mean a broken clock is right twice a day you know what I mean you don't even have to be a Christian to say something that could be profound and deep but that doesn't change the fact that you have an opportunity to be more fully integrated in your character but I think that the messages that resonate the most are from people who are literally walking it out, living it out.

And so it does discredit the message sometimes when you're telling me something that you don't live by. But I think about it like this. So I'm a parent. And now that my children are moving into adulthood, I recognize that many of the things that we have told them growing up, they're also realizing that I am figuring it out with them as well. And I don't know that it's a lot different in ministry. Like this is where the goal is. I think we all know where the goal is, but I'm still working it out too. I think where people get in trouble is that they're not actually doing the work. Like I'm telling you that this is the goal and I'm doing the exact opposite of it, which is why I've tried to be really intentional about being authentic.

Like I'm going through depression. I'm going through an anxiety. This is what I'm learning in the midst of that because it doesn't serve me for me to come off as your God when we all need the same one. So I try to really make sure that I'm not on a pedestal. I try to kick the pedestal down. Like you see a preacher,

a preacher will be preaching, right? And then he's cheating on his wife. Or a preacher will be preaching and then he's hitting his wife. You know what I mean? So it's kind of, it's like a blurred line. That's not a blurred line though. That's, I mean, that's not like, that's wrong. That's wickedness.

You know what I mean? But how do you preach? You went to the extreme just now. Yeah. But like cheating on his wife or hitting his wife, you see that a lot of time. You'll see a preacher say, I'm sorry I cheated on my wife. You see that in the church sometimes. None of my preachers, but wife you see that a lot of time you'll see a preacher say i'm sorry i cheated on my wife you you see that in the church sometimes none of my preachers but you do see that so when you see that it's kind of difficult to uphold a preacher and you'd be like is this whole ish

bullshit are we just playing this game or or do you really feel that way and really made a mistake you understand what i'm saying well i mean i i can't judge someone's heart and i can't judge their experiences so i'm a little hesitant to really make a judgment on situations I'm not saying anybody in particular if anybody's listening there's nobody yeah well you know people I don't I don't know anyone either who's going through this but I think people infer a lot but I will say this like preachers are human so if you are who you are and you can cheat on your wife and a preacher can cheat on his wife like he he's a man too. She's a woman too. And so you guys are still going to have the same areas of temptation that you need to

overcome. I think your response to that, like, what is my response? How do I grow from here? How do I create boundaries? Do I need to sit down? Do I need to heal? I think how you handle your humanity in the face of this divine call is what's most important. I am careful that pastors

don't have a license to do whatever they want to because of the power they hold. I think that you can be human, but all of us need to be trying and stretching, growing to be more like Jesus, or we are up here playing. I'm not asking you to be perfect. I'm asking you to really be on this walk for real. Who's this white pastor you talking about? Black pastors don't cheat. And does he listen to the breakfast club? That's right. I want to, because you are a mother of six.

Yeah. And you're busy, extremely busy with your podcast and then writing a book and then traveling. How do you balance that? Like motherhood? I know you said your children

are growing into adulthood, but how do you balance that? Well, yeah. And I feel for you because you got a lot going on. I think it's the message of this book. I think it's really allowing myself to like flow in a different definition of power based off of each of those roles. Because as much as I want to bring the same intensity to everything I do, if I do that, I may end up damaging my children because I'm talking to them like a business partner. And so really defining for myself, what does it mean to be powerful in these specific roles? And how much capacity do I have to show up in that space? Asking for help, you know, changing and modifying my life to really fit my priorities has done a

lot. And then also just making sure my kids know like I'm tired so my daughter is eight she was devastated when I left yesterday she was like please don't leave me literally she's like can you please come home and I'm like I just need this one week to get this book in as many hands as possible and then mommy will be home but I'm packing to her like you know you do this well I'm doing this so she understands that sometimes absence does not mean that I don't care. Yeah. And it's a balancing walk, especially I think if you have mom guilt like I do sometimes. Yeah.

But I also want her to see a woman walking in her purpose and being excited about it and changing lives. So I share testimonies with her too. I'm like, let's sit down and read these comments from this week and thank you for being a part of this. So she feels a part of it as well. Okay. Because my son is 12 now but I miss like a lot of him like a lot of him being going from grade to grade you know because my mom between my mom and his dad that's who has him I was touring a lot before I actually got to do this and I just feel so guilty a lot sometimes like oh and now I

have this new baby. And I'm like, I'm bringing him up to Jersey with me. And he wants to grow up in the house with the baby instead of me being in Jersey with the new baby. And then him still being with my mother. And I don't want to repeat that. I don't want to do that again. I feel guilty. So I had my son at 14.

And I think one of the things that makes me feel most guilty is that I know that I was growing up while he was growing up. And so the way that I'm able to be present, even for my younger kids, I know that he didn't have that. So I think, one, I don't know if you have to deal with this, but I had to really forgive myself for what I didn't know when I was raising him. You know, I just I didn't know I did the best that I could and to trust that I was raising him. You know, I just, I didn't know. I did the best that I could. And to trust that I still have opportunity. If you think about adult children who are wounded from relationships that didn't go well with their parents, there's still a little kid inside of them that wants their parents to show up, that wants to experience healing in that space.

And so it reminds me too that I'm never out of time. So I'm constantly still reparenting him even at 21 years old. Gotcha. You know, in the clamp down chapter, you start by saying, if you're one of those people who know better and instantly do better, I'm probably going to be the friend who you roll your eyes at constantly. Why are you that friend? Because things need to marinate for me.

Like, I don't just activate things. Like, you could tell me, like, you need to be vegan. And I'm going to let that marinate for a year or two before that actually activates, because I don't do things just because someone says that I should do them. It has to be real. I have to have a conviction about it. But I will marinate it so I can figure out like how does this revelation actually fit within the context of my life? So in the back of the books, each book has like something to marinate on, something to activate and something to pray on, because I know everyone moves into change differently. I love the marinating before activating, but I feel like that's probably how the majority of us move. Is there ever a time we shouldn't marinate before activating?

Like the spirit says, do it. We just go. I mean, to each his own. I think if you feel I'm not into telling folks what they should do. You know what I mean? Like, I think if you feel... I'm not into telling folks what they should do. You know what I mean? Like, I think if you feel like there's a now on it, you should do that. You should move in it now. And a lot of times when we move in it now, we learn the marination lessons afterwards, you know?

But, yeah. What about the spirit, though? The spirit says move. The spirit always tells you to be patient and marinate? I mean, I'm in relationship. I've seen you snatch your wig off on stage. You didn't marinate on that occasion. I didn't have a choice.

She didn't snatch it off. It was coming off. She got tired of it. I didn't have a choice. I didn't have a choice. That, oh, Lord. I know. Yeah, no.

No, I was in the Spirit in that I had a mission to accomplish, and I didn't want anything to distract me. And my husband wasn't there. My parents weren't there. So it wasn't like I was going to be able to toss the microphone. I was the, you know, senior leadership person that was present in that room. And so I had to take it off. I didn't love it.

I didn't enjoy it, but I stood up to it. And I think it was really interesting because I was going through something at that time where I was wondering, could I be in Dallas, a part of senior leadership, like with my past, with the way that I preach, with the way that I'm a little different than, I guess, traditional pastors. And I really did feel like God was trying to tell me, like, just be authentic, just trust yourself in that season of my life. And so that Sunday, when I'm sitting there with a wig cap on on and then other women start taking their wigs off on the altar, I was like, you know what? I think this may be God trying to tell me you're going to have to show up as your full self in order to get this done. And I know a lot of people made fun of it, but there were so many people who were like

seeing you stand there, being courageous, stepping into that moment helped me so much to just embrace who I am. And so I really feel like God took something that would have been very embarrassing and at least allowed there to be a buffer from the people who were moved by that moment. Well, at least for me, I was like, that's why we rock with her. A lot of people said that. Because you're just always willing to be your true self at all times. Well, I mean, like, y'all know this isn't my hair and like no it's not ideal but it's not more important than what i'm here for so like i'm going to take it off and we're going to move on down the road when i got back behind the platform that i was like oh lord

i have desecrated the potter's there are bundles on the altar i have desecrated this place but yeah it just turns out it wasn't that way. I love chapter 16 to know your harm. Oh, yeah. What is knowing your harm? Well, I talk about the oath that doctors take where they say, you know, that they'll do no harm, but they're also recognizing that they're practicing. And when we move in power, part of the reason why so many of us don't move in power is that we're afraid that we won't do it perfectly or that we'll make mistakes. But if we can embrace the reality that I'm going to be powerful and humble, I'm going to be wrong. I'm going to have to apologize. I'm going to mess up. I may say things too sharply. Then that doesn't make me any less powerful. As a matter of fact, it makes me more powerful

because I recognize that my position of power could disrupt my relationship sometimes. But I value these relationships enough to learn how to be powerful in a way that honors the spaces that I'm in next time. What's your thought on the way that church is now, right? As a kid, you had to go to church every Sunday. You had to be in the building. You had to sit there. And if there was a baptism, you was going to be there all day. Now a lot of people turn it on Sunday morning, and it's a lot easier.

So what are your thoughts on people not actually attending the institution of church? First of all, you're not about to tie trip in me. No, you don't. No, you don't. Let's be very clear. Let me see. I mean, I think that the world is changing. And as the world changes, I think people are finding things that are more convenient for them. And I do think that you are able to have intimate encounters with God from this comfort of your own home. And I think it's powerful that that's the way that things are being spread. I think it's like watching a football game at home. You can get hype.

You can be excited for your team. But there is something about being in the room with other people that makes you just take things over the edge. I was surprised that in a world where people aren't coming to church, that we have 40,000 women at the Woman Evolve Conference, because I'm like, I don't know that this is a thing that people are going to really be into when they like virtual experiences, but there is something that happens in healthy community and connection that allows your faith to really be strengthened. I've had people come into rooms and they didn't really want to be there.

Somebody drug them in there. They were going through a depression. They don't even know why they were there. But just being in this space, sitting next to someone who was able to care for them and just being surrounded by worship lifted their spirits when they couldn't lift their own hands. And I don't think that there's any substitute for that. But you also keep it tight, though. One hour, that's mwah.

Let's go. Let me tell you something. I don't. Yeah, it's finished. He said it. Everything he said has been said to me, and so now we can go home and have brunch. Yeah, I do think we have to honor people's time

because people do have options, and so being really intentional about making sure people feel like I can go get out and have the rest of my day is part of what we should really lean into is is the is the church whack that's the question that's the question that was the question that's what ty got smoked for because he said that he thinks the church has become whack i think it's a system now oh god it's a system everything is a system and systems work with or without god so i think the institution of church is whack i think how church is ran is whack i think the religious system and structure is whack i don't subscribe to it even though i grew up in it i

benefited from it but i learned that god is not the church I heard in context what he said made a lot more sense but I heard the sound bite was trash um I think that everyone has a different experience of church and I think that there are some people who have probably had an experience that has disheartened them in that way but I love the church I mean as much as I went through my own church hurt and trauma uh the church was also really beautiful to me in times where I didn't have anywhere to go. And I could sit in that presence and experience God. And sometimes to really experience God in church, you have to look past the people. And maybe that's whack. Maybe it's not because maybe it keeps our focus on what should

really matter. I love what you said, too, about know your harm. You said deflecting from the way that you harm someone and highlighting the way that they harm instead is a sign of immaturity that keeps you from truly being powerful. What's found on that? Well, a lot of times we will not embrace what we did to someone because of what they've done to us. And it keeps us from owning our stuff and growing.

And so being able to say, even though my teacher may not be perfect, like my teacher may have failed in chemistry, but they get an A plus in this history class. That means that I need to at least be able to receive from them this opportunity to grow. And I feel like in relationships, that's hard, especially if you marry, because when you're married,, your person brings up something and you're like, oh, but last week you did X, Y, and Z. But what did you do today? You know, and how can you own that? And I think when we own our stuff, we give other people permission to do it as well. Sometimes we want to be the person who receives the apology, but not the one who gives it. But we have to lead in humility and vulnerability.

You said that's how you and Toray were initially, right? Where? Like you weren't listening. Oh, no, yeah, no. Throwing everything, throwing his stuff at him all the time? Well, I don't know if I was throwing his stuff at him as much as I was maybe reciting it in my own head, but I think I will say that when I was single,

after I went through my divorce, I finally got my life together with me and my two kids. You really could not tell me that I was not Miss Independent out here so I really went into our relationship with a certain level of pride where I was like at the end of the day I got my stuff together I finally love who I am and embracing it and so when I was in relationship with him and he would just ask me the simplest of questions we wouldn't even fight and it would just be like why why'd you do that I didn't like that because I'm not used to having nobody question my decision. And it was a simple, harmless question. And so I think that I went into a defensive one because I

wanted to protect my healing. And when you're in a marriage and you go into it trying to protect yourself and make sure that you don't get done the way that you were done in the past, I don't know that it's fair for creating intimacy. And so I had to do a lot of work of receiving his perspective and finding it valuable so that I could become better, and I have become better as a result of it. What does power look like in a relationship? Those dynamics are always changing.

I think especially now that we see, you know, hyper masculinity has been beginning to be interrogated. We're seeing women move into positions where sometimes they're the breadwinners and men are at home being more comfortable taking care of the family. I think power in a relationship is recognizing the strengths of what your person carries and how that strength builds you in your area of weakness without feeling like they have to be strong or stronger in the same area that you're strong. I think it's like this symbiotic relationship, this flow where you're able to build a life together because both of you bring something different to the table and to honor that, to really honor it is important.

You said something else in the book. You said when you are unable to connect the dots between who you sense you could become and who you presently are, it doesn't just cause internal frustration. It renders you powerless. And one of the examples you use is you don't defend yourself when misunderstood. Yeah. And to me, not feeling the need to explain yourself is power. Well, I think not explaining yourself and not defending yourself. And I think it's different because you have a platform and so you can't defend yourself 24 seven. But when we're in

intimate relationships with someone and they have an expectation of who we are or this idea of who we are and we don't change that, we allow them to believe that we do end up powerless because I'm not even bringing the full version of who I am into this friendship, into this parent-child dynamic. And you end up robbing yourself of the ability to really show up in your power and allow them to believe something about you that's not true. And so it is powerful to be like, you got me messed up. Like, that's not what I believe. That's not what I think. And if we're going to walk this thing out, I want you to know who I am for real so that you can know what to expect from me okay guys so you talk about intimate relations

yeah I'm like I'm not defending nothing uh I yeah it's hard it's hard for me we know she has to go I know she has tv or something but I know she has to go so damn yeah well all you're doing is is telling them the book they're not gonna buy if you ask all the questions about the book making her basically recite the book you should pray to hurt your bob looks like hers that's what you should do That's why he like when she pulled her wig off because it reminded him of himself. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I got you. I see. I do like your bum though. Exactly. I would love it in the dressing room.

You just keep on answering questions over at him so you forcing me to see. It's got a little swing on it. Hey. Can you leave us with a prayer? What message are you hoping people get from the book? Oh, the message that I am hoping people get from the book is that power is a flow and that power that you have experienced in your past is still present in your future. It just must it just might be taking on a different form. So to be open to how power is being redefined in your present.

Well, now, can you leave us on a prayer? Thank you, God, for this opportunity, for this platform. Thank you for using these voices at this stage in their life. And I'd usually pray for the listeners, but God, I'm going to pray for them, that you would stir up the gift of God that's on the inside of them, that you would highlight the areas of their life where you want them to experience more of your power and to show them the power that you've placed inside of them I thank you God for

giving them wisdom strategy not just for their careers but for their family their emotional health and wellness and God I pray that you would continue to show them your light that they may lean into it in Jesus name that's right make sure you go get Sarah Jake Roberts new new book, Power Moves, Ignite Your Confidence and Become a Force, and subscribe to her podcast, The Woman Evolved Podcast on the Black Effect iHeartRadio Podcast Network. That's right.

We appreciate you for coming, Ms. Roberts. Thank you. And you need to come more often for people who think church is whack because you're the person that I feel like is going to bridge the gap between church and this new generation. Yeah. I really feel that way.

I hope so. Thank you. That's a tremendous honor, a lot of responsibility. But I'm committed to, you know, holding down my square. That's right. All right. Sarah Jakes Roberts, it's The Breakfast Club. Good morning.

Wake that ass up in the morning. The Breakfast Club.