The Breakfast Club - INTERVIEW: Shaka Senghor Reveals Life's "Hidden Prisons", Finding Freedom, Forgiveness + More

Episode Date: September 10, 2025

Today on The Breakfast Club, Shaka Senghor Reveals Life's "Hidden Prisons", Finding Freedom, Forgiveness. Listen For More!YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It's DJ NVJ. Nv. J. Salamei Naga, we are the Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed. Shaka's Angkor. Welcome back, brother. How you feeling? Man, I'm blessed. I'm blessed. Thank you all so much for having me back. Thank you much. You could just put out an amazing new body of work, man, a new book, How to Be Free, a proven guide to escaping life's hidden prisons, man.

What is a hidden prison? It's the things that you don't see that standing away of you living the best life for yourself, right? So when I thought about this big idea and created this kind of blueprint to help people live the life that they're fully capable of and fully deserving of, I recognize that we all had these hidden prisons, you know, self-doubt, negative, self-taught. You know, that's one of the big things that kind of stand in the way. But it's also things like anger, grief, shame, things from our childhood that really doesn't allow us to show up fully and authentically in our full potential.

You know, I wanted to, I know you got the book out, but there's a lot that's been going on. And I figured you would be the right person to ask some questions about it. So everything going on in Atlanta, it seems like people, I wouldn't say, glorify the street. Right, right. things that happen in the street and I feel like sometimes people don't know how to get out of it right you see what happened in Atlanta everybody's a snitch this person's a rat

when do you get to an age or when do you tell those young as it says hey it's not worth it we see what's happening but it seems like they don't learn their lesson so what do you tell one of those little young brothers out there that's a that's a prison that's not hitting but they in it I think one of the things with our culture specifically like hip hop culture

is we've kind of intermingled the idea that these guys are really street guys, and really they're artists, their kids who are trying to figure out how to make money using the talent, but also using the stories from a background that society has sold us on as being like the way to show up in the world, right? Like, the only way we can make it.

And what I tell the young people is that it's made way more money in legitimate enterprise. And like, I was pretty decent with street sales, but I can tell you, I make way more money in legitimate enterprise and the accessibility to it now it's something we see.

I mean, like, you can take a phone and build a whole career, right? And so I think we have to separate like what's really the streets from like what's music culture and these kids pretending to be street guys because it's kind of ridiculous if you think about it.

If you're making all this money and music, then why are you going backwards? Because it's not many guys that's really financially successful coming for the streets. Like, and I mean, you talk to any of the guys that actually are, you know, recognized from being in that environment

they'll tell you most guys don't make real money in the streets. Most guys are basically minimum wage, you know, workers. So if you're making all this legitimate money and music, why would you kind of try to intermingle that with this identity that's not real? Man, that's a great point. And what do you say to people who act like the streets is an industry? And what I mean by that is you'll have folks that will say things to you, like, well, who determines what's legal and illegal?

Who determines what's right and what's wrong? Because they'll say there's people out here that make money selling alcohol. There's people that I saw here that's making money selling marijuana now. I'm like, that's not the same. Like, the screeches is not a real industry. Yeah, no, I mean, it's a kind of dispersed industry, right? It's like anything goes. But when you look at how, you know, for example, the marijuana industry, right,

how that's evolved to become legitimate enterprise, right? Like, that's where we should be focusing. How do we change laws and policies to work to our advantage? Instead of being, you know, victimized by these policies and then somebody else reaps all the benefits. And so, you know, I'm always telling, you know, the young people that I mentor is really think about how do you get ownership and whatever it is you're interested in.

Like that's, I've been in Silicon Valley for three years, which actually was one of the inspirations for writing this book because I work with people that's like ultra wealthy and yet I see them have kind of like some of the same prisons that, you know, I see people in the neighborhood. I've seen people who was actually in real prison have that same kind of mental blocks that doesn't allow them to show up authentically

even though it looks like they got all the traps and the success they're still not happy and fulfilled so that's to me I'm it's more like how are you getting equity but also how are you creating like the mental equity to really live the life that you want to live? I got one more question with that. Is there a cold when it comes to the street

in your opinion but we had a conversation about cold is there a code is there a code that you're supposed to follow or is it just it's a legal activity you know I mean or is there something that you guys lines that should be followed. I mean, I grew up in the era of, like, crack cocaine, so I can't speak to, if there's codes. Now, I haven't been in the streets in, like, 37 years.

I'm 53 years old, man. Successful business, man. I'm an entrepreneur, married. I got a kid. I got investments. But I do, you know, I mean, I still do a lot of work with people in prison and in the neighborhoods. And, you know, I kind of know that, you know, the codes are really your personal values, right?

everybody can say that they're real into them handcuffs going to you in that interrogation room and you're really facing a life sentence and that's what that's what we don't talk about is how many different ways you can end up serving life without actually even really doing anything meaningful just by associations right you know when you're talking about those rico charges a lot of these guys not making real money they just around and then you get swooped up and the way the feds players they're going to load up everything they can charge you with and then most likely you'll plead out with which is like 95% of people do.

But yeah, I don't, I stay out the streets. I'm out here just being a grown, married man. You know, we try to tell these youngers that to stay out the streets. Absolutely. Like, you mean, it ain't worth it. And any little bit of money you were going to make or any little bit of cloutre you were going to make ain't worth the 10 life sentences,

two life sentences or one life sentence. You know what I mean? It ain't worth it missing your family, your wife, your kids. It ain't worth it, man. You know, the 19 years in prison that I served, I watched life go back. You know, I came home. my younger siblings were adults.

My nephews and nieces didn't even know me. You know, they had to get to know me. And so you can't replace those years. You know, there's nothing you can do to get that time back. And this is what I can tell you for sure about prison life is the toughest break under those circumstances. Everybody, when they, when they hit that pillow at night, they're wishing that they would have made different life choices, you know what I mean?

So I wouldn't wish that on anybody. And I try to discourage, guys, I think one of the things I will say that I'm proud of that I'm starting to see in our culture is more interest being you know placed on actually legitimate financial investments you know I think about what the young brother's doing earn your leisure you know I think about wallow and some of the brothers I've been able to to interact with and I'm like yo that's that's a move right there because it's still cool at the end of the day if it's really about making money investments is a way to make a make a lot of money you know and that's the freedom that I even talk about in the book is like financial freedom you know

how are you taking advantage of these opportunities that's really right in front of you. And my, you know, my philosophy is simple. I came from 19 years in prison, seven years in solitary confinement to become a really, really successful, not only as an author, but also as an investor. So my philosophy is like, if I can do it coming from those circumstances, what excuse you got? You know what I mean? So I tell my mentees, you got to take every excuse off the table because I've done all the hard work for you. And that's, you know, that's what I've done in this book.

because, like, here's a framework and a blueprint for you to literally live the freest life possible. One of the biggest hidden prisoners I see is people, you know, being defined by their past mistakes or not knowing how to let go of their past mistakes. So how do you keep from being defined by your past mistakes when the system and sometimes even your own people want to keep you stuck there?

Man, I stay out the comment section. It's brutal out there, man. No, but really it's a lot of self-affirming care, right? It's like negative self-talk is one of the biggest self-imposed prisons I've found where even successful people are doubting themselves or you know dealing with imposter syndrome like why do I, why am I in this room? Do I really belong in this room? And so for me, you know, the way that I've kind of mapped my life out is really through writing it down like journalists, one of the greatest hacks in life is like when you see it, you can be super clear on, hey, here's who I actually am, not who they say I am. I get judged all the time. Like, why are you able to do some of these things? you went to prison for a homicide. You know, it's one of the most regrettable acts in my life, and it's something I could never undo, which is why I'm so conscious about talking to the young guys

about the decisions that they make. And I've also lived 15 years of freedom where I've been able to create, you know, a lot of value for communities that I'm in. I've invested in community in the real way. And so I've done way more good than I've done bad. But the reality is people are going to bring that up. You know, they're going to judge you for that.

And so that's why that self-talk is so important and journaling and really writing it down and getting super clear about who you are really is what makes the world a difference. Let me ask you, what's free to you, right? And the reason I ask that is some people look at free as financial freedom, right? One of my biggest things for myself

was making sure my kids were free. And when I mean free, I mean, this life is short. Try to set them up where they can do what they want to do just to be happy, right? if my daughter wanted to do hair for the rest of her life, whatever made her happy. It ain't about the mansions, the cars, and all that, that we think that some people idolize, some people don't.

But what's free to you? Because I always felt just living a free life and being happy is free to me. Yeah, it's really having complete agency and autonomy over my time and how I spend it and who I spend it with. And being able to wake up and every day and say that I'm intentional about the way I live my life, that I'm unburting by anything

that does not coincide with my core values. Right. And so, you know, I'm an artist, so I want to wake up and be able to create, you know. I want to be able to spend time with people that I actually value and care about in a meaningful way. And, like, being able to create space for myself and create a lifestyle that really allows me to have that agency, that's like the ultimate freedom, right? But then, you know, I drill down into, like, what is financial freedom? You know, that's really recognizing that my money actually works for me instead of me working for money. What does freedom look like with love, right? It's being able to show up authentically with my family, being vulnerable, being open,

you know, not playing this kind of put this mask on as a dad or as a husband. And being able to show up in that way, man, it's the most incredible sense of freedom. And then, you know, the socially, you know, one of the things that this would be the first place that I share this on because it was shared recently, Oprah talked about me putting in for my pardon. And she asked me what would that mean if I got my pardon? And I said it would mean that I'm, you know, now I'm back included in the tribe. because there are barriers when you have a felony on your life. You know, and it's been, you know, I caught this felony in 1991,

and it still impacts my life, my wife's life, my son's life. And unfortunately, we just learned that they didn't give me that pardon. Oh, dear. And so I had to reimagine, like, what this freedom looked like to be unburdened by a system. And really what it looks like to me is like... It was a presidential pardon. Well, they wouldn't have been president-governor

because my case was state, Governor Whitmer in Michigan, and they started down after 15 years. And I'm talking about... Hey, come on, Brett. Come on, Big Gritz. What I was seen in 15 years is, like, unparalleled for somebody

who was formerly incarcerated. But it was one of those moments, right, where I had to go back to my own book, my own framework of like, okay, how do you navigate that disappointment? You know, without it spiraling, right? Because it's infuriating when you think about I've done all this work in the world.

and I'm still told that it's not enough, you know what I mean? How does that make you feel? Because you, you know, not that it's, you know, that you deserve it or you earn it, but you did so much for your city, right? You've changed. You've talked about your change. You accepted what happened. Like, you've been a man that said, you know, this is what it was,

but you've made it your life to make sure that you changed and you give back and that for them to turn you down. Yeah. What does that do to you? Yeah, I mean, it was a moment, man. You know, I remember my wife and I, were you know she had brought the mail in and she handed me the mail and you know we both kind of like excited like all right well what's going to happen right and I opened up and it was just like

the way they shot me down it wasn't even no clarity as to why right it was just like you've been denied reapplying two years and in my mind I'm like okay what what do I what do I accomplish in two years that I haven't accomplished in 15 right right and so it's that thing of like that that reminder that comes back over and over you're not worthy to be a fully and included. And so what I did is I actually really went to the playbook that I've outlined in how to be free. And I went back in our journal, I was like, how do I really feel about this? What does this really mean for my life? And what is my plan moving forward? Because initially, I was like, man, I'm not applying back in two years. Like, why would I, why would I do that?

I've accomplished so much. I mean, I've been Grammy-nominated album with Nas, Emmy winning film with Aid Rene, New York Times bestseller, fellow at MIT, fellow at Virginia Tech, Kellogg. Like, you name it. Your community work. Community work, you know what I'm saying? And so I'm like, what more do they want from me? And it was like through that process of writing it down,

it was like, you know, at the end of the day, I'm going to show up in the spirit of gratitude for all of them. Have you talked to the governor? Have y'all spoke at all? I've never spoke to the governor because you go, it goes through a whole parole board, pardon board. I spoke to the lieutenant governor. know the lieutenant governor um isn't he running he's running for governor he's probably running for

governor so yeah uh gilkris yeah um and so you know it's it's one of those things where you just kind of go back to like what is my role in this right and for me it's coming back to a spirit of gratitude my life is blessed i'm blessed even the things that challenge me betters me and so that's how i chose to approach it you know we pay attention to stuff like that governor Shapiro, suit the governor of Josh Shapiro, he parted in Wallo, you know, in Pennsylvania. So, you know, Governor Gritchie Wittman, I'd hope you know, culture pays attention to stuff like that.

That's real. You know? One of the other hidden prisons, man, that I want to ask you about hidden prisons, can freedom be obtained if you are physically free, but you're still battling things within yourself? That's why I love that you did this guide

to being a hidden prison, because I wonder that when you're out physically. Yeah. But can it truly be attained if you still battling things within yourself? Well, here's one of the things that I shared in a book that I think blew people mind is that I realized I was incarcerated before I was having a prison cell. Like, mentally, I bought into a narrative that my life can only have two outcomes dead or in prison before 21. And I ended up living that narrative. But I was also free before they ever let me out because I took the time to really start to do the hard work, right, of asking that question.

How did I end up here? Right. Like, how did I end up serving out my most promising years in a cell? Like, I wanted to be a doctor and an artist, and I ended up getting caught up in the streetcoach when I was 14 years old and dealt with all the things that came with that. And so when I was actually in physical prison, I started to kind of write my way out, journaling, I got free before they ever let me out. And so the reason I wrote this book is working in Silicon Valley and working in the

community, I started to see a consistent trend of people really who were like stuck. You know, sometimes it was grief. time they couldn't get over the loss of a job, the loss of a loved one, sometimes it was shame. You know, Silicon Valley is a very aggressive environment, right? It's like, it's hard. You've got to be a real hustler to survive in that environment. And I would see people just get broken from being shame when they didn't execute on a project. And so I started to see these consistent patterns, anger, the inability to forgive, which is something that I think really is a hidden prison for a lot of people where you get stuck

in this thing of like, I'm going to hold on to like not forgiving this person. Meanwhile, that person out somewhere frolicking and you get upset every time you think of it and you just can't move on with your life. And then there's also like these well-intended prisons, right? Helicopter parenting. You see that parent

who's just like, I'm going to do all the things for my child, I'm going to hover over them and then your child doesn't build up resilience. They don't build up any agency. They don't build up any capabilities, right? And even in love life, right? It's like we broke up, but we're going to remain friends. And then you wonder why you can never find a husband or a wife because you're trapped in these old narratives. And so

there's a lot of people that's out here that stuck in an old story. Talk about the forgiveness freedom, right? Yeah. That was a tough one for me for a long time, right? Because I held things, right? Yeah. And I was talking to somebody recently and I didn't hold them for forgiveness or non-forgiveness. I held them for revenge, right? Because I felt like I needed that, that lick back. I needed that eye for eye, that two for two. So that's one of the most difficult for people. So break that down as far as the forgiveness freedom. That's a great one. So, so interesting enough, a couple of years ago, I got a letter from the guy who shot me when I was 17 years old. This exchange, our beef, it was, you know, 30 seconds, right? Pulled up on a block, we had words

exchanged. He shot me. I never saw this guy's face. Shot me three times. I get this letter and he's like, yo, I'm the guy who shot you. I apologize. At the time, he's still in prison right now. I got mad respect in there. You know what I'm saying? Like, I can literally call and shoot somebody, somebody on their books, take care of a dude. I felt that old anger come up. For a hot second. For a hot second. And I literally said, well, what do you preach? You preach that people are worthy of second chances. Like, you got to be a man of your word. You got to honor that, right? And so I had to sit with that. And I realized that the anger was rooted and I never saw this. guy's face. So I looked him up on the computer, saw his face, and I made peace with that.

And I started writing him a letter, and then I was like, you know what, I don't owe him that. I can forget his brother and moved on. But instead, I actually wrote a letter to my mother because we were in a space of healing, and I was getting to a space to realize, and I thought I had forgiven her, but I was holding on to something. And so that letter allowed me to release that and get to a space where, man, my mother and our relationship, has evolved to the point where I feel like the parent, you know what I'm saying, and trying to protect the little girl that got hurt,

that turned her into a hurt woman and a hurt mother. And that was the beauty of forgiveness. It's like, I forget this guy. I had to let it go. I could have been back in that old energy. And I'm like, man, that doesn't, that don't feel good in my spirit. You know what I mean?

Because I've said to people, like, you aren't your worst moment. And like, that guy, whatever moment he was in when he shot me, I was in a similar moment when I shot somebody else. But would you feel different if he didn't apologize? If he didn't come out and say, I'm sorry, would you feel differently and not say, you know what? I needed that apology.

You know what I mean? Would it make you feel different? Would you still forgive the same way if he didn't apologize and you found out who it was? Yeah, I would because I have the wisdom not to understand that oftentimes people are operating out of a spirit of hope that has nothing to do with me. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, like a lot of times we're holding on to things with people that we aren't even really thinking about how did they arrive at that, right? Like, you know, I talk about in the book, my brother was murdered in July of 2021.

And I remember sitting in my family's living room and I'm, you know, I'm coming home. I'm like, let me come home and help. My brother, let me be a support for my dad, my mom. And then I had this moment where I was watching my stepmom and she's heartbroken. her baby void has been murdered and I felt guilty you know what I mean so I was caught between this world of trying to grieve for my brother I feel guilty because I've made somebody else's family feel like that you know what I mean and so I was sitting there like we're stuck with this this this I'm hunter host of hunting for answers on the black effect podcast network

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hi my name is enya yumanzor and i'm drew phillips and we run a podcast called emergency intercom If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free IHeartRadio app.

Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Hey, sis. What if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance, bro? Tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown Ambition. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards. If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recreate the same problem a year from now.

When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt

and it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in the sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hola, it's HoneyGerman. And my podcast, Grasias Come Again, is back. This season we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned in like over 25 years.

Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a start. We talk all about. what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisement, a lot of laughs, and those amazing

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Energy. And so when I look at somebody who's done something that's harmful, like I can't, like, just judge them solely based on that without looking within. And when I look within, I realize that the decision I made as a 19-year-old kid came from a space of hurt, PTSD, all the things. So whether he would apologize or not, I have to realize that that he was probably similar. You know, he probably came through gun trauma and gun violence. And, there was something inside him that was broken you know what I mean they had nothing to do with me that's how me and my mother was able to hear my mother she started to open up to me man about the things that happened in her life and it all made sense you understood you know I mean I understood that she was you know sexually assaulted as a kid

she was abused as a teenager you know what I mean and so like once I recognize that I have to see that in anybody that I have conflict with that something inside of them is dictating the behavior in the same way did it happen with me you know what i mean so that's how i get to that deep forgiveness and that's one of the things about the book that you as you begin to read through it not only are you getting these powerful stories but you're really getting like here's a how to unlock that door and let yourself out because when you don't forgive the other person isn't

suffering like you're you're trapped in that cage right and so i wanted to make sure that people had the keys to let themselves out are you ever shocked by the amount of people that want to keep you in in in in that box that that that that box of oh yeah he murdered somebody when he was 19 years old because I saw the comments on Joe Rogan but then on the flip side yeah you you're your redeeming quality was that moment it was the fact you went to prison I was that right because with you yes that you have you know with these inmates you tell that story and they automatically you can you can see them like oh I can relate to what that brother went through like they look at you as a beacon of hope you know

somebody who paid their debt to society and made it. Are you ever shocked how people want to keep you in that box? I'm never really shocked because I know that oftentimes people are operating out of their own hurt. You know what I mean? And like they're, we live in a snap judgment society. Like people can look at you and make a decision in a split second without actually really getting to know you. You know, that's one of the things I was super happy when we went into Rikers Island is the work that you're doing in the world. I think it's some of the most incredible and meaningful work ever.

You know, this mental health piece is so important to our culture. And prison is where it's really needed at, you know what I mean? And for you to be able to bear witness to that in that testimony, you see that people aren't in there like, yo, let me get out and while out, they're really looking for help. That's right. And they're really hurt. And so, you know, that balances out for me. You know what I mean? To go in there, man, and pour into people.

And, like, those are my people. That's my tribe. You know what I'm saying? But they're going there and they're pouring to them and have them pouring to me. like that balances out all the negativity, you know what I mean? And what I always think about, you know, I'm thinking about the people in the comments,

you know, sometimes I'm kind of petty in my thoughts, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, here this person is trying to troll me, and I might have just flew in on a PJ, I'm good. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm great, man, my wife might have just went out and had an amazing dinner. My son might have accomplished something brilliant. Like, life

is good. And, like, that's where I think sometimes we get lost at, especially with, like, you know, all the digital content is we forget we're living a real life we're really present in the moment and again that's another practice that I have is mindfulness is like it doesn't mean that you don't hear the things I just bring myself back to my real moments where am I really at in life you know what I mean am I stuck in in in 1991 because that's what they want to be or am I actually present you know

am I out here pruning my plants you know I'm saying I'm out here you know doing whatever it is at home that brings me joy you know I'm sitting out in the garage just reading the and enjoying life, why these people are miserable, you know what I mean? So I don't, I don't give too much. But you do understand people's mindset sometimes, right? I remember the first time when I heard this story, and I remember the first time you came on the breakfast club reading the comments. And the first thing people would say was, well, why him? He just did this. Why is he on Oprah? Why is he on a breakfast club? This is not fair. Because people are so used to people

doing things and not changing. They see the negative, like you said, they see the negative side of things but they don't see the other side of it right and sometimes I feel like and this is why sometimes I have a problem with sometimes people at a church that do foul stuff or they talk about the stuff that they shouldn't do and then you see them doing the thing like we're not all human like we all don't make mistakes right but it's always I always say is apology is fine but it's the change behavior that shows everything absolutely and we've seen your journey from that change behavior so I'm sure you understand why people's first knowledge or first mind frame is this that and you have to yeah no absolutely you know and I think about I

how we arrive at our conclusions, right, is we see the end product. So they see me here. You know, they don't see the work that it took for me to get here. They see me on Oprah. And I don't realize I came home.

I was literally hustling books out of the trunk of my car. Like a lot of people be like they got it out of the mud. Me and my brother, we always talk about, we got it from beneath the mud. You know, I used to set up tables

in gentlemen's clubs. You know what I'm saying? It'd be like, yo, by these books, right? And I've got rejected so many times. I mean, I've tried to get employment the felony came up like you name a rejection ops got it right and so they don't see that part of the journey but also understand right people feel like you know you you've done something bad in life you don't deserve any good to happen to you you know but it's i hate when they try to define you for

that yeah absolutely and it's hypocritical you know i'm not going to name name but we've got rappers who've done that and rap about it yeah haven't shown any change at all and they still get welcomed everywhere yeah And I think that's one of the things in our culture, like we pick and choose what we celebrate. And what I always just try to tell people is like, understand, as long as you wake up breathing, you're on a journey. You know what I mean? And where you start doesn't mean this is where you have to end. That's the amazing thing that, you know, people will really get out of the book is that, look, I started, you know, in the worst of environments with the worst of circumstances.

And mentally, I began to break free from that and start to think about what is, what is the, what is the, life possibilities like I was telling you know the brothers and sisters in prison yesterday I wrote down when I was in solitary confinement I didn't even know if I was getting out of prison I was like but if I ever get out here's all the things that I want to manifest in my life and I still had those journals right now in my garage and I wrote down everything that I wanted to accomplish you know what I mean and so I did that because life really is a journey and as long as you wake up breathing you got opportunity and it's really up to you to seize that opportunity and so that's what I've done.

I've seized the opportunity and I just keep growing and keep building and keep evolving and keep being just curious about life. You know, one of the things that kept coming up yesterday even at Rikers was the topic of grief. Yeah.

And man, grief is one of those hidden prisons that it's almost like, you know, you get in trouble back in the day you end up doing a weekend. You know what I'm saying? You had a good week, you were at work but you were getting locked up for the weekend? Yeah.

You knew some of those guys that had to go in on the weekend. And that's what it feels like with grief. So how do you get out of that hidden prison of grief? Yeah, you know, that's when I actually start with grief because I think it's the toughest prison for anybody to get out because can't nobody gets coming to you to be like, Charlemagne, stop grieving.

Like that would be mean or cruel, right? And all grief isn't the same, right? Like, you know, when I think about my brother's death, I think about that differently from my grandmother who just got older and she passed and she transitioned, sad, miss granny, missed the things. My brother, that was traumatic. you know what I mean so that's more understandable yeah it's more understandable right and so

those different type of grief you can go back to work after two weeks after you know grandma passed somebody in your family is is murder or tragically lost that's more difficult right what I what I arrived at for myself is gratitude you know how do I how am I thankful for the time that I spent with my brother how am I thankful for my brother's name I always want to shout him out his name is how do I honor what he meant to our family you know my siblings and i and and and that's what allows me to heal but here's the thing like in the book even the way that we designed a book there's a door in this part what's about digging deeper and the reason i created the open doors because sometimes you go in and out of these things if you

live life long enough you're going to grieve more than once right and it's not always death sometimes it's an employment loss it's a love loss it's losing a friend friendships the end and to me it's always about gratitude you know what am i thankful for in this experience and it doesn't take away like the longing to for those moments or missing my brother it just allows me to reframe that his life wasn't the moment it ended it was all of the things that came before that and i got a chance to appreciate that and spend time with him and you know and and and love one this was my only little brother you know this is my baby brother um and and all the time we got a chance to to share, you know, I wanted to be able to honor that, you know, through a spirit of gratitude.

And so, yeah, you talk about that in the book. So it's like, whenever that grief comes up, just be grateful for the time you did spend. Yeah, absolutely. Grieving that they're not here anymore. Yeah, yeah, like, what part of that, you know, I go back to, like, my brother, like, I have a younger sister named Bootsie, and her and mother, she's the baby girl, he was the baby boy, and they have a special relationship, right? They talk smack to each other all the time.

So on those tough, tough days, I think about the way that. them too used to joke you know what i mean and that brings me my spirit a sense of peace you know and that's and that's you know in the book i also talk about we had this beautiful puppy that you know a negligent trainer left the gate open and got ran over you know and it was like it was heartbreaking you know and i also talk about my younger son say cool being diagnosed with type one diabetes and seeing his young life changed so there's that type of grief right and like now we have to manage and navigate life through that lens, which is, you know, it's wild as a parent, you know,

because you think about your kid accomplished something the first thing you do. Let's go grab ice cream. You know, so we had to start thinking differently about all these moments, but again, just leaning into gratitude that he's the type of kid that's like, I'm going to fight this thing,

and I'm going to stand up, you know, to my own body. And like that, watching him, that gives me a sense of like, man, I'm thankful that we've imbode in his spirit so that he can, you know, he can rise to the occasion. You know, in part three of the book, you talk about embracing freedom and you break it down in the separate chapters. I'm just going to name all the chapters,

but I want you to tell me which one of those is the most important for finding and embracing freedom. So you have hope and composure. Yeah. You have love. You have joy. You have success. You have facing down fear, becoming unstoppable, finding true freedom.

Which one of those is most important? All of them, sir and man, you got to read all of them. You know what I mean? But I would say the thing that I find the most interesting, thing was joy, especially like as a man, you know, we don't often give ourselves permission to fully give in to the idea that we can't experience joy and happiness and that it doesn't make you soft or weak or lame or whatever, that it's actually dope and amazing, you know. And so I think joy really kind of undergirds like what it means to love, you know,

to, you know, one of the things that is great to me is like, my, My son and my wife, they have similar energy. They're, like, excitable and, like, you know, they get turned up, like, you know, for anything. And I always watch that, and it's just like, man, that's an amazing orientation around life, you know. And even though I don't have that type of energy, like my mindset is more like, how do I show up in joy with them? And then how do I show up in joy in my own life? And it was a difficult thing. I didn't even realize, like, my reaction to things that are joyful was initially.

resistance you know I got invited on a incredible trip go to Italy yacht for like 13 days and my instinct was like figuring out ways why I shouldn't go on this trip and that's when I realized it was attached to something deeper this this inability to really just give myself permission to let go and once I identified that I was like oh I'm not standing my own way anymore I'm showing up you name the you name the shing ding I'm going to it you know what I'm saying and I'm gonna enjoy it I'm be president and like that to me is like the ultimate freedom yeah i was glad you used that term of joy that i've been saying in this area that we're in right now black people have to create

safe spaces for us to just simply experience joy absolutely absolutely yeah because that's the thing like so much of like where we at culturally we're in survival mode you know and once you step out of survival and get into thriving you realize that that joy is like one of the the greatest components of what it means to live a life where you're thriving at. When you're in that survival mode, it's hard to appreciate anything. You know what I mean? It's like we celebrate, but are we fully present in that celebration, you know, and that's what I really wanted to offer.

It's like, here's how you like not only experience joy, but be a joy hunter. You know, so I have this part in the book where I talk about how do you seek it out? How do you go and find it? How do you go and experience and be curious about life in such a way where you're like, oh, that actually was joyful, you know? So when I'm out different cities, different times, I'm like, what would bring me joy in terms of experience? Like one of my favorite things is I like to collect first edition paperback books

written by block authors. So when I go into a city, I'm like, where's the used bookstore at? And I'm telling you, like, I'll be hyped up. Like, I'm about to go get the latest mixtape, you know what I'm saying? Because that brings me joy, that sense of fulfillment of like seeing these pages that somebody has written. I mean, I'm a writer. So that's like my joy hunting.

I'm like out on a mission, you know? It's wild because as you're saying that, I'm watching your wife smile in the background. So like she felt, she feels the, she knows the joy you feel from that and it resonates with her. Yeah, because I've drug her on some missions. Hey, let's go to this bookstore and I'll be turned up, but she be with it, you know what I mean?

Do you feel like trauma is the root of all hidden prisons? I think trauma is one of the core anchoring pieces of the hidden prisons. You know, a lot of how we see our lives has been shaped by our childhood. And there's, like, big trauma and small trauma, right? But I think it's really shaped by just negative experiences because some don't quite rise to the level of trauma. But they do rise to the level of, like, making you think about something in a way that's unpleasant.

And I think that's where a lot of the negative self-talk comes from. It's like, you know, you're in an environment, somebody's like, oh, you can't accomplish that. And now you've adopted it. That's not necessarily trauma is just negative input, but now it has you questioning whether you can accomplish a thing or not, right? And so I think there's like the kind of big trauma, and then there's like this kind of small negative inputs.

How do we use your new book, How to Be Free, to shift from telling young people, especially young brothers, to do better, to actually creating healing spaces that deal with that trauma? That's a great question. I think we saw a lot of that yesterday when we was there. Riker. So one of the things that I've done with this book is I started the largest book club in prisons. So we gave the book away to 1,300 prisons to about a million people who are incarcerated. Because I want to make sure that they had access to this information and this framework so that they can live the most free life possible, even though their circumstances doesn't look free. And I think what we do is we start study groups. You know, we start to really have these deep conversations. And like, it was mind-blowing to see how the people who are incarcerated. leaned into this book specifically.

They had questions, they had thoughts, they had all these things because we did create a real framework within the book for them to kind of, you know, guide the conversation. And it was amazing, you know what I'm saying, to really see how they played out. And I would love to do that out here where we started to connect the dots,

you know, especially in our culture where it's like, you know, it's wild sometimes when I think about rapping all the things that they're rapping about. I'm like, I really live that life. But I may not be the person, that they see as being accessible because I'm not over indexing on my past. I'm like, listen, I'm living a whole different life and I want to bring you to this part of it, not that old life, you know what I mean?

But I think this is a book opportunity that, you know, I would love to see more brothers and sisters in the culture, like starting study groups and think tanks around this framework because it really is one of those problems. And we don't have nothing like it in our culture, right? Like, you know, when I was set out to write this particular book, I really was like, I thought about the books that helped me in my life while I was incarcerated as a man think of the secret man, search for meaning all these books, and I didn't see any book that was authored by somebody who really had lived an experience that I had lived.

And so I was like, oh, it's up to me to create that, and that's how we ended up with this book. And shout out to my brother, Ben Horowitz, who actually encouraged me to write a lesson book, which was really powerful and impactful. Is it desire to be accepted a hidden prison? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's one of the biggest hidden prisons is that we're, and it's really who are you trying to be accepted by? And what do you think that they have that you don't have inside yourself? And I think when you begin to strengthen your sense

of who you are as a human being, then you would draw to you what you need, but you won't go out seeking acceptance from any and everybody. The book is out right now. And thank you for inviting me to write because yesterday, man. Shaka was climbing me because I took the security to the right. He said, Envy, he took a security personnel in an environment. I didn't think about it. 8,000, yo. It was wild.

I don't practice bad habits. Was that weird? I was laughing the whole way as I was thinking about what is going to happen when it's security walk in. And it's like, literally, hundreds of officers that are armed. And I'm like, Shalom, man, what are you doing? I ain't even think about it. You good in any hood, any prison hood when you're rolling with me. I understand that.

I didn't think I don't practice bad habits. You know what I'm saying? You need to move, you move a certain way. That's right. Yeah, that's right. But that was stupid. Right, and then we didn't make no sense. So, you know, he used to be a cop.

So I was like, yo, you ever wanted to be a CEO of Rikers? He was like, hell. Jesus Christ. He's also doing your Welfth Expo. Yeah. No, not this year. I'm on a book tour this year. I'm going to miss it, man.

I've done it a couple of years. That's what I'm so used to say it. Man, it's one of the best, best experience. So I really encourage everybody to go check it out. And we're going to do one on Rikers Island. We're going to definitely do one on Rikers Island. Yeah, we're going to make that happen. But, you know, I'm glad you did bring that up, though,

because even though Shaka's not doing it this year, the years he's done it, it was such an important, it was so important to have you there as well as Wallow, because to your point, every year that we did it, there was always people there who had either just got out of prison or got people who are in prison right now, and we don't understand how that impacts their mental, especially brothers that just came home.

Yeah, yeah. It's still institutionalized. Yeah. And there were people like literally saying, you know, y'all need to add this component to the mental welfare export because those are the people that are dealing with it, you know, the most. Absolutely.

And I'll definitely be there next year. I'm so sad to be missing this one, but I'm super excited to be out on tour with the book and celebrating, man, it's book number three, man. So this is, it's actually surreal, you know, and you know you've written books, you know how hard it is to get a book. the book book out in the world so we're super proud a few weeks ago man i saw y'all hole in

hands you had your hair braided on nice and meat back with you know you know the wild thing about about the relationship with opras we're generally friends man and like when i when i first wrote my book i don't know if i told you the story but i wrote my first book in solitary and i was like yo anybody want to read this book and a guy was like man this ain't over don't nobody want to read that shit and i was like damn i was like that was cold but then i wrote it down as a goal open and read three of my books and invited me to her home multiple times and said that you were her greatest interview ever

imagine open Winfrey saying that about you just my greatest interview ever yeah wow yeah and then we became real friends man so that's that's my girl and I shout her out all the time and she always reaches out she I'm sure she'll be like congrats on pub day shock you know so she's genuinely she's who she says she is love it like she cooked though what did you

oh she didn't cook we didn't eat we didn't eat okay okay okay no you No tequila at that time. We was working. It was ground. You know what I'm saying? She likes Cassadragonis. No, she actually sent me a couple of few bottles, though.

She up my game on the tequila some years ago. She asked me what my favorite was. I told her. She was like, eh. Let me send you something. And she sent me three bottles with my name on that. I bet she was Cassadragonis. Absolutely.

And I drunk all three of them. Jesus, all right. Not at the same time. I figured that. Well, pick up the book, How to Be Free. A Shaka. A proven guy. the escaping life's hidden prison.

Don't forget that part. Everybody got a hidden prison. That's right. For every hidden prison, there's a door. And this book is the key. It's the breakfast club. Good morning. Hold up.

Every day I wake up. Wake your ass up. The breakfast club. Do you all finish or y'all done? Short on time, but big on true crime. On a recent episode of the podcast hunting for answers, I highlighted the story of 19-year-old Lechay Dungey. But she never knocked on that door.

She never met. made it inside, and that text message would be the last time anyone would ever hear from her. Listen to hunting for answers from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Yumanzoor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the first.

podcast for you. But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Emergency Intercom and listen now. Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez and in the new season of the Overcomfit podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen.

Listen to the new season of the Overcomber podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Marcus Grant. And I'm Michael Florio, and together we host the NFL Fantasy Football Podcast. Ready to dominate your fantasy league this season? Then you need the NFL fantasy football podcast, your ultimate source for player news, draft tips, and winning strategies. Whether you're a rookie manager or a fantasy vet, we've got the insight to help you crush your opponents. Listen to the NFL Fantasy Football podcast on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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