The Breakfast Club - Jasmine Guy & Kadeem Hardison On A Different World's Impact, Character Chemistry, Black Love + More

Episode Date: September 21, 2022

Jasmine Guy & Kadeem Hardison On A Different World's Impact, Character Chemistry, Black Love + MoreSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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you gotta do better than that there you go come on now come on come on now come on now come on now come on now turn it up jasmine guy i gotta start like this. This is a fun fact. The reason I went to Hampton University was because of me watching A Different World. How many times did y'all hear that?

At least half a dozen a week. Did you graduate? I sure did. You can go. That's not many years. Five years. That's all right. That's okay, of years you took. Five years. Five years. That's all right.

That's okay, baby. I'm proud of you. Consistence overcomes resistance. My first celebrity picture I ever took with was with Kadeem Hardison. Wow. I'm going to post it tomorrow. We were in the airport. And you had the flip-up glasses and everything.

What? Yep. In the airport? My mom took a picture in the airport. How old were you? You sure it was me? I'm 100%, 1,000%. How old were you?

I was young. We was coming back from Florida. You were in the airport. He must have just gotten a job because they wasn't wearing the flip-flops in person. Oh, you didn't wear them in real life? Yeah, not in real life. Matter of fact, they wore the flip. They were just round.

Okay, yeah, that makes more sense. That makes sense. I'm going to post your picture tomorrow. Do that. I was like, I remember. You sure that wasn't Jaffee Jeff, man? No. My mom was like, you were so scared to walk over to her.

My mom was going to send me the picture. I'm going to post it tomorrow. That's awesome. Thank you, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Glad to be here. I know this might be an odd question, but do y'all know what y'all mean to just people? To us?

Black people. It's becoming more and more apparent as we get older as yeah yeah like at first no in 1996 when we were done and probably the next 10 years not as much but then after 20 years and you think that's dead you go somewhere and you see somebody and their eyes jump out of their head and they almost like the king of zamunda they go oh my god that's right and they're like wow it's you i wanted to be an engineer because of you i went to hampton i went to i wanted to go to hillman i was trying to find out where the school was. So it's becoming clearer and clearer as we get older. But no, at the time. It's very moving to me now.

But at the time, both of us were, you know, we were from New York. We're used to hustling. We had just done school days. We were kind of like, okay, now what? Now what? Now what? we were kind of like okay now what now what and I don't know that we knew how the show was resonating with our people because we were not

I wasn't around my people I was in LA and I went from Melrose to the Valley and back to Melrose and the only people I hung out with were them. Wow. I didn't know the impact.

I wasn't hearing it. I wasn't seeing it. And coming from theater, you know. You know when you hit, when you land, you know when you are having a communication. And what has been amazing to me is that, you know, we were always trying to make things better, make things more believable, have more depth or content.

So we weren't really looking at what was landing. I wasn't. You know, because when we talked, you know, actor to actor, Kadeem and I really worked hard on that relationship. Because if you look at the first season and the second season, I was like, I don't know why Whitley would like Dwayne. Based on what I was older, I was an upperclassman to him. He was, you know, they had him playing the goofy guy, and now she's dreaming about him?

I would have been dreaming about some seniors. Or a teacher or two that I would like to cast. Well, how much input did you both have in some of the topics and themes that were on A Different World? Because you guys did cover a lot of real- life things that you didn't see anywhere else. They pretty much, Debbie came and she had a plan. But do you remember that she made us write what we saw ourselves in five years or something like that? We had homework.

Yeah, we had homework. Debbie would come and give you homework. And we had to all go home and just write up a page or two of what we saw ourselves for our characters, what we should do, da-da-da. So that was as much input. The first season, we were there. I was there to be the snotty bitch, and he was there to be the goofy dude.

We were very clear you know the the what debbie did was she made our characters deeper and more realistic she snatched all the weaves out of my hair even though i have one she was like she came into the pit. She's like, oh, darling, where's the hot sauce? Yeah. She made it because she went to Howard. Yeah. And what is the difference of going to a black college or, you know, a big university? Right.

Because you are loved, you are nurtured, you are part of a neighborhood. They don't want you to fail. They're not going to let you fail. And that came through in the way she worked with us. And she gave us a voice. We couldn't give notes that first year. We were just worried about, are they going to call us back? They were firing people.

Left and right. Also, the show shifted, though, because it wasn't the show centered around Lisa Bonet, the first season, but then she didn't come back for the second season. So I'm sure that made all of y'all have to be the stars now, basically. Yeah, well, I thought that the show just wasn't going to come back because she is and was the star of that show, you know?

And our characters, at least mine, was based on her. Revolved around her universe. Who am I going to contrast? How was Whitley going to be funny by herself? She was the Mary Tyler Moore. You know what I mean? And I didn't understand that structural change in putting us together when we really didn't have even that much to do. But we knew each other. And I said, you know, first of all, I'm like his big sister.

So it felt a little incestuous. Although he did say he had a crush on you back then when he first met you. You don't have to answer that. You don't have to. You know, I was young. I was grown. My men were like 30 years old. You know what I'm saying? She wasn't checking for me. I just didn't see that as a possibility.

But the thing was we were friends and we did have good communication. We could talk. I have better communication with him than most of my relationships. There's no pressure. And we've been finding out all these secrets. He tell you the good. That's right. He tell you what love.

That's right. I was going to ask, was it difficult to stay on TV? Because at the time there was nothing like this on television. Nothing about HBCUs, nothing about colleges. Was it difficult to stay on television? I thought the first season was difficult. I really took the job expecting maybe we'd get six or eight episodes. And go back to New York.

Go back to New York. Wow. Become a movie star. And what was this? it was shot in LA yeah yeah they shot in LA yeah yeah I made me feel like y'all shot it in Virginia on campus like I've never in a million years with a thought now all the exteriors were in in Atlanta and a Spellman and Morehouse yeah but yeah we were just in a studio in LA and we weren't near the Cosby show, which was filming in Selva Cup.

Yeah. So that was a disconnection, too, because Californians, they never heard of HBCUs. Now, I grew up across the street from Morehouse. I'm from Atlanta. So it was as right as rain to me. I didn't realize that black people, nobody knew about black colleges. Not in New York. Not on that side of the country.

I didn't know. New York either. Nope. Yep. I never heard of it. And neither one of us have gone to college. Right. I was going to ask if either of y'all actually attended HBCU in real life. I barely got out of high gone to college. Right. I was going to ask, did either of y'all actually attend an HBCU in real life?

I barely got out of high school. Wow. I had to do summer school and all of that. Well, it went down. Summer school. Yeah, I had to go to summer school on 14th Street. Not 14th, 17th Street. There was a little school that when you was messing up in your high school,

they send you out in the summer. But you came out okay. I did. Why did the show end though? I remember it had so much impact. Oh, I remember that. In 93, y'all went on hiatus, and it just never came back. I was like, what?

That's what happened, man. I think once we had Jesse on, we were doing a lot of controversial stuff. And I think, you know. The Riot Show. Yeah, there was some stuff that maybe the network wasn't as thrilled about. Gotcha. It was a lot of battles back and forth with Debbie and trying to, you know, make it current and relevant.

And it was like, yeah, let's just have the romance and the chase and the that kind of stuff. Every deep show that we did, she fought for. It was a battle. Wow. It was a battle with the network. Them white boys did not care about date rape, apartheid, riot, HIV. Okay. They were like, just put Whitley and Dwayne and be funny.

Wow. That did hazing too. Hazing. Yes. So y'all didn't even see it coming then? I saw it coming. Let's put Whitley and Dwayne and be funny. Wow. That did Hazen too. Hazen. Yes. So y'all didn't even see it coming then? I saw it coming. We saw it coming because, you know, you treating us like monkeys and we not monkeys.

Hey. We not doing your word. We doing our word. And the power that we had, they diminished. I felt diminished because they always said, but you come between Cosby and Cheers I said but people can change the channel Yeah, they don't have to watch this show. Yeah. Yeah I just felt like we were always on our own I never felt a part of that Hollywood system. Like I will watch Roseanne bar getting

Yes, please, Miss Goss. I was like, is this cable? It can be whatever you want it to be. It's so stupid. You know, I would see people that were like the way we were, an ensemble company with actors, and we would never get nothing. You know, they'll have Roseanne Barr singing the anthem

at a Padre game, and we got five singers in our cast. Wow, wow. And we number two. Wow. That's crazy. So I always felt the exclusion. I always felt it, and I never felt a part of that whole, you get Emmys and

awards and never invited to the show wow never like come on and present a joint or just be in the crowd and let us shoot the cast you can't put too much clout into that shit anyway

you can't put too much in the praise so you can't put too much in the criticism I'm cloutin' to that shit anyway. I agree with you. Because I felt like we were all in an event every time the show came on. So you can't put too much in the criticism. You got to know who you are and where you belong. And that was my family. That was my company. But, you know, they used to ask me to do stuff for NBC, like parades and shit, and say happy birthday to Cheers.

I said, why am I saying happy birthday to them? They don't even have no black people on their show. I'm getting paid for what? Stage 29. Were y'all ever scared that y'all were gonna be stuck in character like that everybody always looked at you as as Dwayne or you know always looked at you as you know Whitley you know were. Were you ever scared of that? Getting typecast. That typecast, yeah. 100%. I knew that as soon as it was over, well, I thought that I should have did four years and graduated and maybe a fifth year to transition into new cast members, new freshmen, and then they should have did four, five

in transit. So in my eyes, the show should have never ended. It should still be on now, not reruns. Oh yeah, because it could be, yeah, like how it could be, like Grown-Ups could have been a different world. It could just always go on because there'll always be kids in college and there'll always be something to talk about.

Right, like Whitley graduates, but you're still there, and then people are coming in underneath you, and then you graduate, and then the people you introduce. It just seemed like a perfect vehicle to create young, to showcase black talent. What Envy said about typecasting is true, but also, man, that late 80s, early 90s fame was so big that we know y'all real names.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't just know y'all characters. I know that's Jasmine Guy and Kadeem Hardison. I think that means something, too. What about Marissa Tomei, right, as the one white character on the show? Was that something that you feel like they said, we got to put a white person, you know, on the show?

Well, we came on after that, and I never understood it not being addressed. And I actually wrote an episode this is how naive I was I thought I could be on a show and just write an episode I was like well I can write this shit and I brought it to Susan and it was addressing the fact that um well she goes to a dance and she asked this boy to, you know, dance with her. And he was like, you know, I ain't dancing with no white girl. You trying to, you know, and she it blew her away.

She comes back and she says, I never thought about it. She said, well, why did you why did you come to Hellman? Because they have the best journalism department in Virginia. And they told me they're not addressing the white person at the black school issue. Wow. Why? I don't know why because it was

so obvious. But it's the weirdest thing to this day. When I went to Hampton and it was white kids walking around campus, it was just weird. I wanted to be like, why? But they were on a road team. They got scholarships so they went it was just

always weird it would be interesting to see what that experience for them was like though like you said to your point way more interesting

especially when we carrying eggs carrying eggs around like they're babies I'm like yeah are we getting ready to drink yeah we listen we are

celebrating y'all you see we got the balloons in the back that say hillman i'm sorry i'm embarrassed by the champagne they got but we're not on no damn budget you sure about that i like this hillman oh look at that oh yes i really went to heaven i really went to heaven that's why that says hampton i really went to heaven we got but really went to Hampton. That's why that says Hampton up there. I really went to Hampton, graduated. And we got Hillman up there for y'all. You know, flowers for you. Oh, my goodness. There you go.

Thank you, Charlamagne. Kadeem, my brother, flowers for you. Oh, that's so awesome. You gotta give people their flowers, right? Yeah, while they stop. So why not give them to them literally? Absolutely. Thank you.

My flowers. That is so nice. I'm very embarrassed by the champagne. I'm sorry. I can't believe they would do that. Well, let me try it. I'll let you know. All right. Thank you. That is so nice I'm very embarrassed By the champagne I'm sorry I can't believe

They would do that Well let me try it I'll let you know So Jasmine Back to you though When you said You wrote that episode You also directed

Some episodes right Did you direct episodes too Kadeem Yeah yeah yeah I directed Fall out my chair The Tupac episode Wow

I directed I directed another one, too. I can't remember which one. It was violent. Cats in the Cradle? No, that was... I can't remember his name. Thank you, sir.

It's okay. It's been a while. Yeah. So did they come to you? Or were you... Did you guys... It's trash, right? I think it's because I brushed my teeth.

It's trash. It's trash, right, Ms. God? No, I'm going to drink it, though. We have some good stuff in the back. Why would y'all do that? Give her some tequila. Ace of Spades, all that. because i brushed my teeth it's trash it's trash right now i'm gonna drink it though oh why would y'all do that give her some tequila it doesn't need to be cold made sure people have me nervous about being on this show. I was like, is he like Howard Stern?

Like, what is the problem? Yeah, you was the boogeyman. Because I have seen you. Really? I thought you was the boogeyman. I've seen you interviewed. Mm-hmm. But I haven't seen you,

I hadn't seen the show. So I go on YouTube and I'm watching it and I'm friends with Amanda Seals. Oh, that's family. Yes, you know. And I was like, okay, what's the problem? Like, what can we talk about that's going to be so horrible?

Nothing. Nothing. That's all. Oh, so, Kadeem, you were talking about directing and Debbie Allen. So, directing, when it came to directing and writing, Debbie made us put it in our contracts that we got to direct an episode or two. Wow. Or write.

Wow. Her season. After the second or third. Wow. Or write her season. After the second or third season. That was her third season. How did she know that? Like, how did she know that's something that y'all would want to do? She would say, the more you do, the less they can tell you you can't do. Wow. That was the word she said to me.

Because I was like, I don't want to do it. I just want to go do my acting and go home. And she said to me, we'll never have this opportunity again. So you will do whatever you can while we're in this position of power and choice. I wrote, I don't know, three or four episodes. He's directed. Glenn Turman directed. She was an advocate for use this opportunity so the next

time we're not behoven. You know? And it was great crossing that barrier from actor to the writer's room and hearing how they really talk about us. I was like, oh my

God, are you kidding me? Did you have to check people? Did you have to check people in the writer's room? Oh, I didn't say anything in the writer's room. I just listened because it was 12 of them, but I hadn't seen that process because that all happened before we get our notes, you know? And, well, it was my script that I had written,

so I had to be in the writer's room. And that was the first time I saw them imitate us. Wow. I didn't get to see that. Yeah. And say, oh, no, you know, don't give her that. That's a waste. I was like oh yeah but it

was good you know and it was good that I was in there because um everybody every artist has to understand what the other artists do hmm you have to have respect for what he does what she does you, just because you're in front of the camera doesn't mean that's it. Yeah. You know? And I knew that I didn't create this character. I didn't write these words. I don't know how to speak French.

You know, whatever was going on. I didn't dress myself. I didn't do my hair and makeup. So I was always aware of the illusion that's created by a team of people. But I also come from theater. You know that. You know that when you're on stage, you're not the only one making all that happen. Right.

How much of Whitley Gilbert was really you? I didn't have... I know what wasn't me because of the way I was raised. I know politically I had a lot of issues with what I had to say, but I knew that there was somebody on this show that was going to say the right thing. When you're the only black person in a white cast, you have to say all the right things. But when I was Whitley and I have him and Charlie and Craig and Daryl, you know, I was like,

well, somebody, because this, what I'm about to say, when I to um Charnell Kimberly Reese it was our apartheid show and she was gonna give up her scholarship because they were divesting I said but I only know you Yeah, yeah. You know? It was like, and then my first scene with Lisa Bonet in the room, she's like, are you saying you parked in the handicap? I said, why should I be punished because I can walk? I was like, oh, this bitch. As long as it's funny. But, no, the balance was that in the show, you know, I'd have it out with him. I'd have it out with somebody that would challenge that thought.

So I had the freedom to really go there with her. Which usually with acting I'm always like oh I'm not gonna you know but on with Whitley I said we're gonna we're just gonna let her go. Y'all had money for wardrobe too I was gonna say that cuz your wardrobes is always fly. Yeah. So they gave you invested some money in your wardrobe. Second season. Watch what I wore in the first season. It didn't appear she was well-off. No, the wardrobe went to Lisa

Bonag. As it should. But I think the wardrobe spoke to those characters too because Ceci did a great job knowing who these people were. So it's one person doing all seven of us you know from the bright colors to the um you know the i don't i don't know do you wear uh suits when you go to

class i always felt like willie was overdressed business you had to business attire if you're in the business department you have to wear a jacket oh okay and what about those the infamous glasses the infamous glasses came from our first year executive producer and beats passed away um yeah she went to two two nights before we shot my first episode she went to a bowie concert and i think his bassist or his drummer had him on and she came to me two days before and she was like hey i saw these they look kind of cool would you want to wear them and at the time i thought this shit is so corny give me some glasses and a hat and a hood any way that i can hide myself and not be so recognized I'll take it anything

so so yeah I donned them quick I was like yeah yeah yeah sure bang got any hats got any I was in charge of the sneakers you know I mean I made sure that the foot I chose the footwear but I let the wardrobe people do wardrobe until it got down to the feet and then i was like nah i'll bring up some stuff and the ages was really bright i just remember shoulder pads and bright colors those glasses i remember those glasses are awesome everybody i think i had a pair yeah and now they're known as Dwayne Wayne glasses. Even when you see Javi Jeffer tomorrow, those are Dwayne Wayne glasses.

No matter who wears them, even to this day, those are Dwayne Wayne glasses. Dwayne Wade wearing them. Oh, really? Yeah, Dwayne Wade. Yeah, I've seen him too. Okay. Now, what are your thoughts on shows that represent black culture on TV today? I enjoy particularly Atlanta mm-hmm it's probably you know my favorite show because it's it's just so weird and it's so different it's so out there that it was it's one of the regrets now

is that I didn't get the chance to do an episode of Atlanta like mmm I called my agent as soon as I heard Don was doing a show on FX and was like hey bro give me in like I'll pull cables whatever they need over there I'll run camera whatever I just want to be a part is because I think it's gonna be special and and damn it the ending and I didn't get on it. So that's my favorite one. I enjoyed Black-ish in their run. And I've done a few episodes of Grown-ish.

And I like what they're doing although it's not HBCU. It's not the same. But it's still focusing on some black kids in college. You know, promoting education which I think is

you know can't be done enough. That whole formula, that whole blueprint was Cosby in a different world. Black is grown, it's guaranteed. I like shy and I like insecure and I

am so excited when I watch these shows because we would always have ideas, but it was not the time. I pitched a lot of ideas. I had a production company. Just to be able to see our voice and the textures of our culture and that the producers are black and that they are women,

that makes me feel good absolutely salute Alina wave to she you know she loves yeah loves y'all her company is called Hillman Hillman productions yeah yeah I was gonna mention a Tupac episode I know both of you guys were close with Tupac a cool with Tupac so how did those relationships happen for For me, I was just directing them that week. Jasmine. Oh, see, there you go. That's the better one.

Oh, yeah. That's 50s. Okay, cool. All right. I'm great. Thank you. I'll throw that other shit out, Miss God. Don't worry about it.

I don't know. Cold duck. I don't know what the fuck that is. That cold duck? Come on, Whitney. That Merlot. I'm not really a champagne person. We upgrade a little bit.

Oh, God. Yeah, I just got to direct them. I was fortunate. You know, Jada said he wanted to do this show, and he was excited. And I know I'm friends with many emcees, rappers, and I know how they can fuck off some time. So I was real nervous. Like, this is my first week directing.

I was like, is he going to show? Because I've messed around trying to do a video with Dirty, and he never showed. Yeah, yeah. Was that Got Your Money? Yes. I remember that because. Yes.

And then actually, because I was working with them at the time, he actually came and did a video that he was on for GZA, and they wouldn't let it come out. The label went in clear dirty because he didn't show up to his own video. Yes! Damn. I was down there waiting six, seven hours. They asked me, I was like, of course, I love, yeah.

That's why when you see that video, they don't really show his face. It's just like yeah big wig and yeah so um so yeah so i was just nervous as my first directing gig just like okay i just hope he's and once he came he was i always thought it's not not a hot take but i always thought he was probably going to be a better actor than Than rapper? Than rapper, yeah. I didn't, you know, music is subjective, like blah, blah, blah. You like it or you don't, or it fits where you are in that time of your life. I just, he scared me as an actor. I was like, this dude can reach places that I can't even imagine.

His eyes. You know how they always talk about actors, you can see what they can do by looking in their eyes? Like, Pac had them eyes. Look at him go. Jasmine, aren't you working on a documentary? Yes, they're doing a movie about his mother, and I wrote the book Evolution of a Revolutionary

about a fainty. It's just interesting. If you stay here long enough, you'll see how interesting life is because when I wrote that book, like, you know 20 years ago whatever um it was really to empower a feigning because i felt like you know how would somebody do good in your family and then they bring the whole family with them and I just saw this boy at 21 like with all these people like what are

you doing how come you ain't working why ain't you in school I was just so middle class okay when I met the Shakur Cox family and I would I would just talk to them one-on-one and just try to find out where they were because i didn't i mean if i had gotten a different world and my whole family was depending on me to you know what i mean i never knew that pressure and when i talked to a fainting first of all i always wanted to tell the story of a female panther because i feel like all the movies that i've seen have been biased i mean because they don't tell the truth about the um i know you were in one you know yeah but how macho and how um you know sexist yeah the misogyny was rampant that That was the era, too, though. Like, that whole era was misogynistic.

I'm just saying it hasn't been told. That's true. You know, and I thought, well, can we tell Asada Shakur's story? Can we, you know, do an Angela Davis? Can we do Kathleen Cleaver? And when I met Tupac, I didn't want to say to say oh i can't wait to meet your mama you know so i didn't um but i and i didn't really realize her story because it was all the newspaper it there wasn't any linear story about her anyway I started talking to her about telling her story

and doing speaking engagements on her own, right? She's highly intelligent, and I don't know. That's how it started. I ended up writing the book because she didn't want to talk to nobody else. I mean, after we had done all those interviews and stuff, she was like, then, and then, um,

there was a lot going on with Tupac. And when I met him, um, I met him four months before he was shot. Then he healed. Then he went to jail. Then he came out. Then he got shot again.

You know what I mean? And so I just put it on the back burner, but a Faney story is incredible. And she wanted to talk more about her life than the Panther movement. Because that's like from 19 to 21. She wanted to talk about crack. She wanted to talk about her recovery. She wanted to talk about, you know, raising her two kids and, you know, I don't know. I wanted to ask y'all, man, you know,

I often feel spoiled because I'm 44, so, you know, like in the mid-80s, we saw black sitcoms like The Jeffersons and Different Strokes, but then, you know, The Cosbys came and 227s and Different Worlds, but I feel like all of that just came to an abrupt end towards the end of the 90s. Number one, do you think that was the renaissance for black TV?

And do you think there was something bigger at play to stop all of those positive images of black people on TV? It only seems that. Like if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, I don't have any evidence to support it except for the optics

learn so yeah um i do think it was okay come on go miss guy come on with it our last season number two number one sometimes cause be in different world for five, seven years Okay Why would you put Why would you change our time slot And why would you put us Against Martin Wow I definitely took that Personally

You ain't got but two black shows On the networks and you put us At the same time against each other And what have we done? What have we done to deserve this kind of disservice? You know, we're not

competing with Martin. We come on at 8.30, they come on at 8. Why did you move us? That was a detriment. Was that because Cosby's show ended? And didn't they put y'all up at 8 because Cosby was the lead in? Yep. Okay.

So that could have been it. White change our time slot. Just put another 8 o'clock show in. It probably wasn't strong enough. We weren't strong enough to hold another time slot. And not against Martin. I feel like we have the same audience. And so what do white people do?

Divide. That's right. That's right. That's right. You got two hit shows. Let's put them on at the same time. They don't do that to their own shows. So, yes, I do feel like it was

deliberate I feel like it was racist I know who was running NBC at the time and I don't feel we were respected I feel like they always said y'all came between Cosby and Cheers

and that's why you're number two. They said that to my face. They said it to mine. You can't have no more money. I did Dennis. Dennis Miller? Yes. So what was Cheers?

Was Cheers three? I don't know. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay, okay. All right. They were three. Got you, got you. So they thought it was because of the network that these shows were having all the success.

Because of the time slot. The time slot. Because between one and three, we be two got you not that because we between one and three yeah which is fine right i really don't care yeah you know but that you make that a point that i come on a nighttime talk show with joan rivers or denn or Dennis Miller and that's the first thing at your mouth well how does it feel to be between Cosby and Cheers and and sometimes I didn't I didn't know how to answer it and Dennis Miller even said to me that was a that was a horrible lead yes believe. Yes. What? Because you fucking insulted me and you acting like I'm the shit.

Which one am I? What am I doing? Because if the show wasn't good, people would have turned off right after the Cosby show and not watch that or Cheers. Did they pay y'all like y'all wanted to? Did y'all get paid or did y'all have to fight for that? We had to fight.

I went and did White Man Can't Jump. Can I have another champagne? Here we go. Give us some of the good stuff. I went and did White Man Can't Jump. And met Woody Harrelson.

And he was doing Cheers. And they had a way bigger ensemble. And he kind of let me in on what he was making. I was like, and y'all number three. What? Damn. I know.

That's when it hurts. What? It's when we talk to other people. Yeah, word up. What? We went out into the field and found out that Cheers, they was getting. I was like, how? He had an assistant. He had all kinds of shit going on. I was like, how? He had an assistant.

He had all kind of shit going on. I was like, where you get all these things? And they treated you like you just came off the bike in New York. But I'm confused about that because you had Bill Cosby who already had so much success. Why wouldn't he give that game to the spinoff show? The cast of the spinoff show?

He purposely had us shoot in California away from him. I don't think he wanted to have to shoulder it. Run to the show. Yeah. He was running this. This was it.

Boom. Y'all go over here and work that out. And then when it wasn't working to the way I think we all wanted, called with Debbie and said, Miss Thang, get in there with your broom

and clean that shit up Hmm. It seemed like she was a blessing though. Absolutely, you know, no no she was the best thing that could have happened to us That show was dead. Yeah That became on that show and and Susan fails I mean we had brilliant women running that show, turning that around, fighting against the network, fighting for, you know, she said, we're the

dark-skinned people at this school. We're the brown people. You can't... I don't know. I just thought that first season, I already had called my parents. I was like, well, I've made $30,000, and I paid off Greg, and I'm paying off my Amex, and I'm going back to my apartment

because I thought that shit was booty. What's the most that you guys got paid during that time? When y'all were number one and number two, what was the most that they paid y'all? Can we say it, Jazz? It was 30 years ago. I thought I saw you say that somewhere. I think you was with Ryan Cameron.

I saw you say it somewhere, Miss Guy. You know Ryan? Yeah, radio legend. Of course. I like you radio people. I saw you say that somewhere, how much y'all made. It was like $6,000 a week. For the first season, I made $6,000 a week.

Yeah, $6,000. But I didn't, I mean, that was, I was like, what? That was a bump. I was making like $250 at the Village Gate. What? Word. I was a bike messenger. I didn't have any gauge.

You know, when I did Broadway as an ensemble member, I made $800 a week. That was a lot of money. When I did Fame, the TV show, I was making $750 a week and when I worked when they dance with Ailey's I made $75 a week but we only had contracts for seven episodes you didn't know how long it was gonna last oh no and they were firing people. And you had to sign for six years before you finished your audition. Yeah.

I know, but I went into the producers, and I tried to get my two-week notice. That's right. She tried to get two-week notice. I said, I'm very grateful for this opportunity. And because that first season, I'm telling you, it was whack. And I didn't like the way they were treating Lisa Bonet.

And they said, well, have they said, had so-and-so said anything to you? I said, you disrespect her in front of the audience, in front of me? You disrespecting me too? How did they used to disrespect her? Just do it.

Just say it. The way they would talk. Pointing all up in her face. And you know, I'm like, that's a sweet girl, because you're not getting up on me like that. And you know, we've dealt with bitches. I mean, we from New York, as far as choreographers and directors and whatnot.

But I was like, you know, I didn't interfere on set, but I was like, oh no. Oh no. You not treating her like that. She had to hire a security.

Really? So that's why she quit, probably. Nah, because wanted her to be on. Because she Yeah. So that's why she quit, probably. No, because wanted her to be on. Because she was pregnant. He didn't want to show black girl pregnant in college. What do you think about that? I thought it would have been a great tool and something that could inspire because it was all inspiring. So why not? Because that's a real thing.

You can still go get your education. Absolutely. I've heard so many rumors that I don't know what comes from. I've heard that he wanted to incorporate it on the show, on our show. I've also heard that Jesse wanted to have a single mom because he's from a single mom that went through school and then i've also heard that um that was a network that didn't want to incorporate her wholesome right whatever right but first of all it would have given her something to play absolutely

because i felt like they were always looking for denise huxtable you're not using the meat that she comes from you don't know what you're looking at because you haven't seen a little black girl like this before and to give her a baby there you go something to do and it would have helped the Jaleesa character Absolutely right Yep And then your ass Would have been She wouldn't have been Messing with you You gotta go back to

When you quit You have to go on Really You gotta go back So you gotta go back To when you quit So you quit Yeah she gave her

Two week notice They didn't tell me They didn't tell me That I couldn't quit You couldn't quit And I Wow She signed a seven year contract

I didn't know But you know. Did they just smile and say, come back tomorrow? No. See you in the morning. Yeah, right. Okay, thank you for this little lovely note. I had grievances.

So as I was quitting, I was also expressing my grievances. And they listened to those. Good story, bro. They asked me if I had any insight to such and such. I said, no, no, not really. Like, I just want to go back to New York and get another job. Right. It's one side story, you know what I'm talking about?

Y'all got to tell us how y'all got more money, too, though. How'd y'all end up getting more money After the conversation with Woody Howson Yeah it was It was hold out time for me We held out As a team or y'all did it separately No we should have done it together But we did it separately

Sometimes I was the last one And it was like the reading And all this drama and I'm like why do I have to do this it's very degrading mm-hmm very degrading and then you know other actors that aren't going with that bullshit I'm like yeah I remember I remember sitting at home playing sick. Like, I'm sorry, Debbie. I can't. I'm not going to make it.

You was faking COVID all those years ago? I'm not going to be able to come in today. The monkey flew before the monkey came in. Yeah. I was like, that's it. And I think Jasmine is sick, too. And she said, darling, Jasmine is here. Yep.

And I was like, damn it. Yeah. We should have coordinated. What? And had to get in my car and drive to work late. Like, yeah, I'm better now. But y'all eventually got the money, though. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I mean, got some. We got the money. I mean. I got woody was making when i talked to him we ended up there kadeem was your mom in the business at this point she was my manager she was okay so all this time she was managing you yeah yeah yeah okay i taught her she says not me the power of no you know she was like i think you should go back in I was like no not for that not for this okay yeah yeah I was yeah she'll say that right there I learned about the power of no and you knew your worth and wouldn't go

in and take less than this and i was kind of like we got a contract i don't know how we're gonna get out like jasmine tried to quit she wrote a two-week notice you have to get fired i guess yeah right that's the only way you could no they can fire you right that's what i'm saying you would have to get fired yeah so yeah it's like someone breaking up with you. Right. You have to make them break up with you. Yeah, you gotta be bad guys so that they go, get out.

But y'all, I'm gonna have a call back and they give me a paper, like a contract like this, right? I'm just signing it. I look at how much I'm gonna make that $6,000, right? I was like, woo, you know? And I haven't gotten the job yet. Right. Right. This is the other thing haven't gotten the job yet. Right. Right.

This is the other thing. This is the audition, yeah. It's my callback. Yes. So they put me in one room and this other girl in another room. And they said, one of you are going home and one of you are going to the reading. Yes, a table read. You remember who the other girl was? I was going to say, who was the other girl?

I am not calling that girl's name out. Of course I remember her. She's still around? I don't know. Oh, okay. Of course I remember her. She still around? I don't know. Oh, okay. Did she do anything big in the movie world? TV world? I don't know.

Okay. I want to ask y'all about. I'm blind. I'm blind. I'm legally blind. I'm legally blind. I want to ask y'all about Black Love, right? Cause Dwayne and Whitley set the tone for Black Love

for what seems like a whole generation. Oh, I thought you meant the show. No. Have you seen the show, Black Love? Envy was on it. Oh, Envy was on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Me and my wife was on it.

You were? Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna watch. I didn't see it. Yeah, the wife was on it, yeah. I love that show. See, same joint. 20s. Oh, I wish I i love that show same joint yeah oh i wish i had

seen that show before i got married but see i would i want to ask about that though like did playing those roles of duane and whitley teach y'all anything about your own relationships outside of the show wow good question charlamagne there was some crossover because i was having a better sometimes i was having a better relationship that was scripted than in my real life and other times i didn't know how to negotiate real life like it was one thing to be able to play something that someone tells you to do and you know and he's easy to love and easy to work with but um I kind of I don't know I feel like I was a bit of a mess in my real relationship when I also I often talk to him mm-hmm because I didn't understand the language. I didn't understand ultimatums and men's speak.

And I don't know. And, you know, I got famous during the relationship, too. Right. And I felt like he was good with me as a dancer in the ensemble, but not so good with me. Being a star. Real star. And then I again was like, well, you weren't listening to me. You didn't know who I was.

You don't know if somebody gets famous or not, but certainly you knew that I was talented. Certainly there's a possibility. And you can't handle that? What am I supposed to do with that? First of all, I have a daddy. And I have friends, male friends. You're not the only, you're not, you know, the only male figure in my life.

And if you're not happy, you should leave. Feels like insecurities. Absolutely. And then I'm playing Whitley, who's younger than me. I mean, her age is in her 20ss and I'm in my 30s you know and okay for example I'll just say this when we got married when Dwayne and Whitley got married I was breaking up with my boyfriend of five years And the irony of that was like, people were coming up to me talking about, how do you feel?

Are you nervous? I said, I'm not any more nervous than I have been for the last six fucking years on this show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not nervous today. Because you're getting married. I said, you do understand that I'm not nervous today because you're getting married you do understand he's acting that i'm not really getting married that this ain't the dress right yeah the producer oh my god are you nervous you're like no let's go already and you never tried to really highlight

her when when she lost a man and y'all were so close and. And you never tried to really holla at her when she lost a man and y'all were so close and so tight? You never crossed the line? I was in love with Creed. That's right. Yeah. And they were best friends. Yeah, that was like, come on now.

He's a nice guy. How did it impact you off the air? Like having that... Yeah, it was strange. It was, you having that that yeah it was uh it was strange it was you know like it was too much fun to pretend to be in love with jazz yeah it was just it was too much of a joy um the relationships off screen it was creree pretty much most of the time we worked and then then we broke up and and and as um as she was breaking up with me on giving me the ring back and was getting ready to run off and mess with uh Joe Morton's character Cree and I had kind of broke up damn

what if they'd have written to the script that now you and Cree's characters had kind of broke up. Damn. What if they'd have written to the script that now you and Cree's characters gotta be together after y'all break up? She was with Gary Dorda. Yeah. She was with Shazza.

Shazza. Yeah. I was like, God damn, they gave you a fine motherfucking opinion. Oh my God.

Shazza, I was like one of the first work brothers on TV. Yes, Shazza. Yeah. So, Chazza! Yeah. So the only difficulty in the whole thing for me was, you know, having to go to work and having your ex kind of be there. I think people think that we bleed in and out of reality and our truth,

you know, because I never thought about none of that. Right. I never thought about, no, I'm Jasmine. No, I'm White Lake. No, I'm not. I mean, I don't even think about that. Okay, who I need to be right now?

Boom. And my real life is more important to me than any of these bitches I play. Okay? So when people feed into this fantasy, like, oh, he's with Cree, so I'm not gonna touch it. That don't happen when we off camera, we off camera. When we on camera, let me tell you,

everybody on that show was good. Yeah, real good. That's the key too. That's right show was good. Yeah, real good. That's the key, too. That's right. Real good. Yeah. Darryl Bell, Lou Myers, Glenn Turman, Perry LaBelle, Sharnell, you know what I mean?

We were not passing the ball to other amateurs. That's right. Y'all was the 90s bulls. Word. That's right. Word up. We worked together,. We talked. And I don't think actors, you know, sometimes they so uptight that they don't want to talk

and they don't want to get notes from other people or whatever. But, okay, let me tell you one thing that Kadeem told me. I was in makeup and I was in the middle of doing this scene with Joe Morton first of all he was pissed because I had a rule with him that we don't kiss until it's time to film time to take I need to kiss him all week maybe you have to practice no kiss right and so some morning comes on and he kisses me for real in rehearsal, but I was taken aback, you know, because he said, I know, I know you ain't just listening. Joe Morton's sticking his tongue down you.

I said, I didn't know what to say. Like, he's a, you know, he's a guest, right? And then we're filming it. It's like a Thursday. You pop in. I'm in makeup and I say, something's wrong with this scene. I don't know. It wasn't...

He said, y'all need to go to the laboratory and get some chemistry. Wow. I looked at him like damn petty hardison right there yeah yeah he was like yeah you let the kiss good luck with you he was like yeah work on it you ain't got no chemistry that's what's wrong i said said, oh, I thought it was going to give me a no.

Like, if you say it like this, if you sit on his lap, you know, no, he was like, y'all need to go to the laboratory

and get some chemistry. Did y'all have instant chemistry or did y'all have to like spend time together offset to build that up? I think, I think the chemistry

between actor, actor was instant, but to really make the love love story true it was work because i was ultra respectful of dominic her relationship and creed my relationship right so i wasn't really trying to you know go for it yeah she came one day after rehearsal kind of like she could have with joe but didn't and said this scene isn't working honey when i come in the room you have to act like you like me and i was being ultra respectful trying to keep everything out in front and i didn't understand and she said okay hold on you beat me and I'm going to beat you.

So then I played Whitley for that little scene. And she played Dwayne. And she came in the room with a whole different energy. I was like, okay, so go for it. She was like, if you're going to be my man, if I'm going to be your girl, then it's got to be that way. That's the only way it's going to work. And I was like, you ain't got to tell that way that's the only way it's going to work and i was like you ain't

gonna tell me twice and that was it and then from there i think the relationship just got more real more authentic and and connected to people on a whole nother way i was able to touch her anyway get in her face anyway get mad at her and point at her any way. And I loved it. Yeah, right. I know y'all gotta go, but I gotta ask this. Speaking of that, when you crashed the wedding, you looked very

sincere. That's why people feel like what we was watching was real. You know what I mean? What did you do to motivate yourself to get into that space to do that? I didn't agree with the whole, like we had done so many real things on the show, so many things that were,

that were, that felt real. That, that from the AIDS and the apartheid and all of that, for me to crash this wedding like this felt like a complete leap. Didn't make any sense.

So, and I read it two weeks before. It was a two-part episode. So I knew for two weeks that I was going to have to get to that place where I had to break up this wedding. And it was really hard. And one thing I gave myself was, as I'm coming down the aisle, there's a dude on my left. I told him, I said, when you grab me,

make sure you get a good grip on my left arm because I'm going to struggle and try to get away. Wow. And as soon as I felt him go to grab me, I gave him a swim move and got out of it. And that propelled me forward. So it just kind of, and then he had to re-grab me. I made him look silly, but he had to re-grab me

and then pull me out. And I lost the lyrics. Like, I was so, I was so nervous. In character? No, no, no. I was so nervous about if I don't get it right the first time, it's going to degrade. It's going to get worse, and it's going to get worse

because I'm really having a hard time committing to all of these words. Wow'm really i don't believe it kadeem doesn't believe it wow wayne has to believe it so i have to kind of put myself there and that had never been a problem before i could always just put myself there and go for it and now all of a sudden I didn't buy it so once I you know was getting dragged out and lost the lyric I panicked and and I and I knew that her cue was will you I'm supposed to run down all the vows and say will you which is what the preacher has mm-hmm and then she said I do but I got lost in the lyric and uh and just yelled out baby please just because I was drowning I was like fuck that was an ad-lib yeah yeah wow I'm just like we're gonna have to do this again and again and again and it's gonna get worse every time and it

will never be like that that was the first and only take in front of that audience that audience lost it. Were you aware that he was drowning in the time? No, I was standing there because the audience was screaming too. You know, and I was like, hold it, hold it. I said, baby, please. And then the second, please, was like jazz. Yeah, I knew that was jazz.

Because please, baby, baby please from school day yeah so I was like oh okay I got you help me and we are not doing this shit again okay nothing was like that first day yeah nothing yeah yeah are you guys gonna be watching hold on you said you said debbie came over debbie came over the uh loudspeaker because the director is up in the booth and so we can't see her directly we can only hear her when she gives notes or she'll give them to the stage manager and he'll come and whisper something to us but she came over after everybody and they calmed down she said got it moving on wow yeah i just thank you what a relief wow you don't want to do that again because of the the emotional build that was in there but both of us thought that shit was corny you know i well he complained i didn't even know you had all that that you said to them before. Yeah, I told them. Because I complained.

I said, please don't do the graduate. Are we doing the graduate up in here? I don't know. I told them. I said, what I would do. First of all, I felt it was disrespectful, you know. And I've spoken at Spelman, and those girls were like, you know, that wasn't a compliment. Right. For him to come up there at the last minute,

the night before, and you at your mama's house. And if it had been me in my real life and you came up in my mama's house, you know, and then the next day you object, no. It's too late. Well, they ask the question at the wedding. They do say if anybody disagrees with this wedding, stand up and keep your mind.

And coming to her mama's house was my idea. I told the writers, they were like, well, how can we make it better for you? How can you make it better for you? And I said, here's what I would do. Yeah. I would go the night before and say, hey, if you really feel this,

like we could jump this fence and get out of here and they'll never see us and i ain't gotta do all of this wildness you know tomorrow so that was me saying to the writers give me you know this is what i would rather do and they was like you can do that but you still gotta go and do this wow yeah and that's why that part one is more real to me than the wedding. Yeah, you opened the door. I know. I was like, what are you doing? He was like, I ain't never seen you cry.

Yeah. Because I was like, really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Well, I got to go, guys. Okay. With 35 years and TV One Uncensored.

35 years in a different world, man. That's right. Congratulations. TV One Uncensored on Saturday. in a different world, man. That's right. Congratulations. TV One Uncensored on Saturday. On Saturday the 24th. Yes. Marathon. We'll be there yapping away in between joints,

however they cut it up. We went and did a little sit down with them and just talked. Oh, and I'm on Amazon. There you go. Harlem. Harlem. Oh, I love that show.

Yeah, I play Grace Byers' mom. Okay. And I'm a Jamaican bitch, so it's funny. You had to learn the pathos? Yeah, I played a Jamaican many times. Okay, okay, okay. I've been a dance house girl, too. Okay, hey.

I can't make my booty do one at a time. I can't do ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I can't make my booty do one at a time. I can't do ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I can't do that yet. The Whitney Wine. The Whitney Wine. The Whitney Wine. The Whitney Wine.

And then I have a movie called The Lady Makers. It's on Amazon, too. The Lady Makers. Well, Kadeem and Jabney, we love y'all, and we we value y'all and we appreciate y'all. We ain't talking no hip-hop, yo. I know. Next time. Please let me come back.

Please. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you got the MF Doom joint on? I got the tribe on. Yeah, I was like, we got the same watches. We got hip-hop. I have no idea what those things mean.

Trapcore Quest. Oh, you know MF Doom? MF Doom. Oh, okay. All right, thank you. MF Doom is probably my favorite MC. Well, it's the Breakfast Club. Thank you all for joining us. Hey, we love y'all.

We value y'all. We appreciate y'all. We celebrate y'all always, man. That's right. Thank you for every contribution to the culture that y'all have ever made. And it was a pleasure to meet both of you this morning. Pleasure to meet you, too. This was so much fun.

Envy. Yes, it's the Breakfast Club. And Kevin told me when he was going back. Right? It was so much fun. Yes, it's the breakfast club. I didn't even tell me because I was going back and forth. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Had enough of this country? Ever dreamt about starting your own? I planted the flag. This is mine. I own this. It's surprisingly easy. 55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete. Or maybe not. No country willingly gives up their territory.

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