The Breakfast Club - Jemele Hill Speaks On Her Memoir, Forgiveness, Career Risks, Breaking Generational Curses + More

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Jemele Hill Speaks On Her Memoir, Forgiveness, Career Risks, Breaking Generational Curses + MoreSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As a kid, I really do remember having these dreams

and visions, but you just don't know what is going to come for you. Alicia shares her wisdom on growth, gratitude, and the power of love. I forgive myself. It's okay. Have grace with yourself. You're trying your best, and you're going to figure out the rhythm of this thing. Alicia Keys, like you've never heard her before. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Had enough of this country? Ever dreamt about starting your own? I planted the flag. This is mine. I own this. It's surprisingly easy. 55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete. Or

maybe not. No country willingly gives up their territory. Oh my God. What is that? Bullets. Listen to Escape from Zakistan. We need help! That's Escape from Z-A-Q-istan on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, my undeadly darlings. It's Teresa, your resident ghost host. And do I have a treat for you.

Haunting is crawling out from the shadows, and it's going to be devilishly good. We've got chills, thrills, and stories that'll make you wish the lights stayed on. So join me, won't you? Let's dive into the eerie unknown together. Sleep tight, if you can. Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was

assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I was like ain't everybody at this point I was like that man losing bags quick for no damn reason for no reason

just self-inflicted self-inflicted okay thank you it's really been the year self-sabotage I'm serious like for real

I think he's the leader in the clubhouse though you what for self-sabotage. I'm serious. Like, for real. I think he's the leader in the clubhouse, though. He what? For self-sabotage. Yeah, he is. Yeah. Oh, yeah. If you look it up

in the dictionary, it's like his face. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Here we go, y'all. Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Angela Yee,

Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Yes. It's Shemelle Hill. She's got a new book out, her uphill, her memoir. That's right.

Great picture, by the way. Thank you. How many of these did you have to pick through before you landed on this one? You know what? And this is going to sound far more salacious than I actually mean it, but that was from a Playboy shoot I did. What? Yeah, so.

How did you do Playboy? Yeah, because Playboy, read it for the articles. It's very good writing. Read it for the articles. It's very good writing. It's very good writing in Playboy. Let me see what pictures on the back. They did a feature on me at some point. I think it was earlier this year. And so the photo shoot, the photographer, I think, believe his name is Eric Carter. He's based out of L. LA. He took some phenomenal photos. Because during COVID, we couldn't really work out how to get new photos

taken. So I was like, I love these from the Playboy shoot. Did you play a joke on the husband and be like, hey, I'm doing a shoot with Playboy? Oh, I totally did. I was just like, I'm going to be in Playboy. He was like, what? I think they don't do nude pictures anymore. No, I don't think so. I think it's like a more of a content oriented. They've always had good articles in Playboy. I'm anymore. No, I don't think so. I think it's more of a content-oriented.

They've always had good articles in Playboy. I'm serious. Listen, Alex Haley wrote for Playboy. I don't think anybody ever went to Playboy for the articles. You telling on yourself right now, but that's okay. I love the title of the book, too, Uphill. I mean, it's a play on your last name, of course, but I mean... It actually isn't. It's not? It it's not and it was not my title idea this was not the

original title that I wanted that came in third no the original title I wanted was broken curses because I talked a lot about my family history family trauma and all of that and my mother and i'm sure you know you guys have heard this before from elders or from your parents or uncles or whatever but the fact that there are generational curses and my mother used to talk about you know breaking those in our family and so that's why i wanted to name it broken curses but my publisher they they thought it was a little too negative that it wasn't uplifting enough. And my book editor, Shannon, shout out to you, Shannon. She came up with that title of you.

And I said to you, the chosen one. Because honestly, you talk about your mom and the things that she's been through and your whole family. And it's a lot. And so how does she feel about, you know, these stories being told? So I talked to my mother. We had numerous conversations about what was going to be in this book. And she knew what I was doing and the journey that I was on in writing it and knew that I wanted to write it transparently. But honestly, Angela, that was probably the most difficult part because I was in the unfortunate position of asking my mother about the worst moments of her life. And I tried to save those conversations for last, if you will, so that we could talk about maybe happier things and fun memories just to kind of not come from a traumatic perspective.

And so it was tough. I mean, my mother told me some stories i did not even know you know the story that i tell in the book about her too much away okay but you know i guess it's an example of a story but that's where i tell in the book uh about how one of her low points during her addiction was being you know caught in this drug house and having to hide out from drug dealers in that house on the floor on a rat infested floor I didn't even know that story until she told me because I happened when I was in college I was so scared with that part yeah underneath

those dirty clothes rats running around yep and I was saying oh god and I thought they was gonna steal her car while she was inside I well her car as I tell did eventually get stolen you know and it was nothing she could do about it. But it was where she was at the time that was stolen and what she was doing. How did you feel having those conversations with your mom? Because I had to be emotional. I was reading some of that stuff that she went through and I was like in tears. It was it was difficult. And but I think for her it was cathartic because these are traumatic incidents that, you know, during the time after she was sexually abused. And as I tell in the book, she was the victim of a violent rape.

You know, people weren't going to therapy then like that wasn't suggested. And as you know, Charlamagne, from your work in mental health in our community, that was something we didn't do. So imagine going through all of that with no therapy. And that's why, as I discuss in the book, she was going through very severe PTSD and did not know it because that wasn't a term then that we those were difficult conversations. But I think at the end of them, it was really healing for both of us. You know, to be honest, like I certainly knew about the trauma she experienced, but her going into detail, it gives me a better and more enriched perspective about who she is. Yeah, I feel like it allowed I feel like it allowed you to give her more grace. Yeah. And listen, people have been asking me about what I want people to take away from this book. It's a few things. But one of the most important things is that I want people to know you should talk to your people while they're here. Right?

Like your mothers, your aunties, your father, whoever in your family. Find out about them because usually, like, especially your relatives and especially your parents, they lived a whole life. That's right. Before you even got here. That's right. And writing this book, it really made me miss my grandmother who died in 2010 because I realized I didn't ask her nearly as much about her life as I should have. You know, even I know it's hard sometimes for parents and grandparents to share, you know, traumatic moments or their failures or disappointments. But it helps you see them as full people. And maybe that does allow you to give them more grace with some of the decisions they made and even in some respects to how they've treated you.

I was going to ask, did you understand more after talking to your mom and writing this book? Because, you know, even for for myself I didn't really understand until I had kids and then when I had kids and I'm living my own life I'm like that's why my dad did that that's why my mom acted that way but you know at during the time I don't want to say I hated them but you hated what they were doing right but now it's like damn I understand so did you understand more and were able to I you know what I understood more is why even in present day she lives with so much regret we had an interesting conversation recently about that because I forgave my mother for this a long time ago I've let this go because I think as a kid you know it was it was different

because her trauma was something I had to navigate around. So it felt like my childhood was being stolen from me. And so, you know, you carry some resentment for that. And so I let that go. I forgave her, encouraged her as she was turning her life around. You know, my mother, I mean, she's got her master's now, you know, she got her bachelor, master's, you know, she outeducated me, which I'm very, very proud that she did that. And she went back to school in her 50s. OK. And so, you know, this has really been a remarkable turnaround for her. But, yeah, I mean, you know, once I let all of that stuff, you know, go, I think I was good with it. think she still struggles to forgive herself because she feels like she missed so much and but the thing is and it's something I wrote in the book is that my mother was there for everything like even though you know she had a severe addiction I I didn't have one of those stories where my mom was missing for days like or didn't feed me or the lights was cut off and she was very

protective of you correct no matter what no matter what No matter what. So that wasn't my story necessarily because I know some people who are the child of addicts, they do have that story. But she was there, but she wasn't always present. You know what I mean? And so I think because she was trying to

figure out how to come out of all the darkness she was in, I had to figure out ways to navigate around her abuse, her drug abuse. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I don't know what mood you're going to be in. I don't know what person I'm getting today. I don't know when I come home,

what dynamic I'm going to find. And so that for me was where the resentment was coming from is feeling like, man, I got to do all this. You know, I'm trying to be a kid and it's all this seriousness You know, I'm I'm trying to be a kid. And it's all this seriousness and darkness kind of around us. And so I think once I really talked to her about it, and we've talked throughout the years, but it definitely helped me to understand a lot of the decisions she made. Watching what she went through, did it like scare you away from drugs and alcohol?

Oh, I mean, you you know like I've never ever tried hard drugs in my life I don't know anybody who's done any of that I mean that I know of I don't I'm not on that scene I'm not about that I mean I smoked a little weed like here and there um may have taken an edible or two like like that's about it um and I do like tequila but knowing the history of addiction in my family has definitely made me more cognizant of some things. Did your mom forgive her mother? Did she have that opportunity to have those conversations? So they didn't they didn't get to the best place. There was always unconditional love. My mother loved my grandmother fiercely.

But when my grandmother made the decision not to believe her about the abuse my mother suffered at the hands of her brother it was a fracture in their relationship that never healed and unfortunately even when my grandmother died like my mother was her caretaker you know like she regardless of whatever state their relationship was in in the moment, my mother was never going to abandon and stop loving my grandmother. And my grandmother definitely loved her. But she herself was somebody who, you know, we used to have conversations about this. Like she used to tell me like she didn't really want kids and she felt she was a very smart woman, you know, and she was really she really wanted a career like the kind of career I had. Not necessarily a journalist, but she wanted a career. She wanted to travel the world, all these things.

And she was born in 1925. And so education for black women was not a thing in terms of people thinking that they should be educated or that there was value in that. As you know, during those times, I mean, everything that a woman wanted to get financially or any upward mobility came through marriage. And so she was married three times and, you know, she she had her three kids. But she was just in many ways trapped in a life she didn't feel like she chose. And I think because of that, she wasn't the best parent to my mother and to, you know, my uncle that she she could have been. She struggled a lot. They got evicted a lot. My grandmother was a functional alcoholic like they they had some they had some trauma, some real issues. And so she was a great grandmother to me. And my mother would still call her a great mother, despite all the all the troubles that they went through.

But I just think that my mother never got the grandparent I got. I was asking, is there anything that you decided not to put in the book that you was like, you know, let's leave this out or I'm going to take this out. Other family members are not going to like this. I know y'all like to hear the inside. I know people keep it real on here and the tea. There was one thing I cannot tell y'all what it was. Me and my mother got into a enormous argument about this. And the, the thing is, is that it was the only thing in the book she was, cause I, she got an early copy, like an advanced reader copy where you could still edit and change things. she was hot about it and um we had it out and but the funny thing was after

our argument she told you know some of her friends about it and they told her she was tripping and I had a time to think about it reflect on it I talked to my husband about it. And, you know, the thing when you write a memoir, you're writing about people who really exist. And so you have to be careful, truthful, but careful. You know what I'm saying? So that's why when I talk about the abortion I had, I did not use the person's real name

because I don't know if they've told that story. I don't know if his people know or what state that's in. And I didn't want to take away that opportunity from him to tell his story his own way. So with my mother, I had to think about the fact that what is this relationship going to look like after this book? And while I didn't anticipate my mother would stop talking to me or that, but it could be a wedge issue. And this is in print. You know what I'm saying?

It's forever, right? So I had to really think about, do I really want to do this? I can't imagine what it could be because there is so much. I'll tell y'all off here. I'll tell y'all off. Even, look, your journal. You discussed that. Yeah, oh, Jesus.

Man, and for parents, let me ask the guys in the room because y'all have kids. Would you read your daughter's journal if you saw it laying around? I would tell my wife to read it. You would? Really? Because you don't want to read it? Yeah. I don't want to read it, but I do think I probably would read it. Only because I just feel like there's certain things that we should know as parents.

You know what I mean? I would definitely read it. You would definitely read it? And the only reason I say yes is because I've gone through the phone. Oh. You know what I mean? But that's not the same, though. Yes, it is.

Honestly, the phone is like your deepest, innermost thoughts. They could not be true things. It could be just you venting. It could be you just venting. It's like eavesdropping on a therapy session. But it could be something where something's bothering you that you don't talk about. That's right. And you're thinking about committing suicide or hurting yourself or hurting somebody.

So if I can stop that, and maybe you hate me, but hopefully you love me because I was able to stop that. Now, if it's something else, I mind my business and act like I didn't read it. But if it's something where you could have hurt yourself, hurt somebody else, hurt a classmate. Well, how do you look at it, Jamil? Obviously, I disagree. And I got my ass whooped because of it. And that was the thing, is that because of all the tumultuousness in our life that I needed some place to vent.

You know, I couldn't vent to my grandmother because my grandmother did. And that causes friction between her and my mother. I was too embarrassed to vent to my friends and let them in on the issues. Not like I could pick a teacher because that's a double ass whooping coming. Right. You didn't have therapy back then. Didn't have therapy. So my journal was literally

that and so there is i think that might be that might be that's the top three frightening moment of my life when you come home and your mother is sitting there with your journal open reading it reading it what you think of me this exactly i mean that woman i was like i was like you tried to kill me when she read the advanced copy of the book, did it bring you back to that moment? Oh, it was triggering writing it. I was just like, okay, because that's the worst ass whoopin' she ever gave me in my life. There's nothing that comes close. That was abuse.

That was abuse. It was. And then years later, she was like, you know, you didn't deserve them whoopins. Well, can you go back in time and whoop me? Can you do this but you know it was but she it was it was that was one of our actually most fun conversations because there were details of that that I did not remember and I was like that don't really sound like me because she told me that um well one she was sitting there with my journal and then she was like let's talk about this in the basement I was

like oh shit I'm never coming back like this in coming back and she said that's when i told her that i wanted to go live with my father i was like what would possess me to say that that's what you're about to get right and that's why she bagged up all my shit put it in there and took me right to his job and was like she's all yours now and i was like this was a grave mistake on my part yeah but you know I was able to keep a journal later as an adult and I actually had an ex who read my journal too and whoo better hiding spots that's what you need people need to not be nosy I guess it's your child. I understand what they said as far as like- But your man? Oh, hell no.

No, not your man. Definitely not. You know what, man? What your book sparked a conversation that I had recently. Somebody told me, man, and I was thinking about survival and like for women. And I saw like with your mom's stories of just who she was with was sometimes just for survival. Like who can financially provide and take care of things. Somebody said to me the other day, man, I wish I had money and could handle my business.

I could date who I want to date. And I thought about that because, you know, but there's people who end up in situations where it's like, this is a good provider. I have a family. I have children. And therefore, this is a smart decision for me to be with this person. And that's something your mom actually had to do also. Yeah. family I have children and therefore this is a smart decision for me to be with this person and that's something your mom actually had to do also yeah I mean and she's very practical and so to her those were the qualifications she was looking for in the being with somebody um especially at a

certain stage in life like uh her first marriage my first stepfather, as I love to say to my mother, I just mess with her like stepfather number one. But no, she she did that one for love. Right. That was like purely for love. And but I think after that and certainly with some of the circumstances in our life, there was a practicality that she thought, you know, it didn't make sense to her to be with a man who could not provide for you financially. I mean, she's very old school in that way. And, you know, even as my profile expanded and, you know, she would give me dating advice. Like, I understand that, you know, your salary is published, whether true or not. And so she was one of her biggest concerns is that some man would want to be with me just because, you know, of my money. And, you know, I told her, like, we have a totally different kind of viewpoint of those things.

I was like, you know, when I get married, I want to I want to do it for love. Right. That's not to say that financial considerations are not a part of this. You know, you do have to have some common sense with it. But that can't be the provision can't be the basis necessarily of our marriage, if that makes sense, because it's more than just financial things that you need from a person. You know, there's emotional security that you need from that person as well. Trust, nurturing, commitment, like all those other things that really don't have anything you know to do with money that's what I'm always like I always laugh because people um this is obviously before I got married they're always surprised they were always surprised that I wasn't you know dating like some athlete or somebody else I was like that has never been that's never been my style that's the point is that you are financially able to be in love because for some women they're like I got to be practical yeah no and get to a space financially where you're like I can do what I no and get to a space financially where you're like

I can do what I want I what is funny though because I wish you know for my mother that like she was a little less practical and was more you know that's not to say that she was incapable of of the loving aspect of a relationship but it is to say that I think um you know because of so much was robbed from her you know from a physical, I do think it was much harder for her to really trust any man. And so to her, the provision part, like, OK, this is a tangible that I can see that I can rely on. That's why I think that had such a high importance for her. How important? I don't think we talk about this enough, how important is picking the right partner, the right mate? How important is that to breaking generational curses? Oh, I think it's a huge part of it. I mean, listen, between my mother, my grandmother, and my great aunt, who also

is no longer living, they were married eight times. Wow. Okay, eight times. And, you know, there were certainly some successful marriages in my family. I did not see a lot of them growing up because even the people that were together, you know, it was like, OK, come on. You know, like it was it was definitely some turbulence that was there. And for a long time, I did not want to get married. And that was because seeing how those relationships created some brokenness in them. And I was like, I don't want any part of that. If that's what that's supposed to look like, I'm good. And that's why I'm so thankful that I got married when I did.

Like when I was into my 40s already. Because by that time, having some lived experience, being at a point where I didn't need to get married, certainly. The only way I was going to get married if I truly wanted to be with that person. And so when I met my husband in 2014, you know, I wasn't looking at all. We met at homecoming at Michigan State. You know, I know that, of course, now we're in HBCU homecoming season right now. And it's like, look, at PWI, the black people do our thing, too. All right? I'm not saying it's as lit as Hampton. I'm not saying that, Envy.

All right? I get it. It is a little different. All right? But we do all right. And so I was there in Michigan State as the Grand Marshal of the Homecoming Parade. And I was at the Black Alumni Tailgate. Okay.

MSU Black Alumni Tailgate. Okay. MSU Black Alumni, MSUBA, shout out. I was there and I was actually talking to a former student of mine because when I worked in Detroit at the Free Press, I co-taught a sports writing class at Michigan State. And he was one of the students that was in my class. And so I'm talking to him and I see this like fine dude like kind of roll up I was like okay I was like I don't know what's happening there but I'm liking the energy and we were just like flirting and going back and forth but we never exchanged numbers

because you know the the student I was talking to knew my husband they were good friends and later on that night at the black alumni party that they have during homecoming weekend, DJ by MC Light. I saw I saw him at the party and I was like, what are the eyes that you see the fine guy that you've never seen before? And I've been coming to homecoming for a couple of years that you see him again. Must be a black party. Probably high. Well, no, I have been going to homecoming for the last couple of years, going to all the black events. I'd never seen. Right. And once we got to talking, I mean, like he at my my home church growing up is right in his neighborhood. All my people lived in the side of Detroit that he lived on. And it was a miracle. We have never run into each other. And even though he went to Michigan State, he's five years younger than me.

So we weren't there at the same time. But we had a lot of, like, connections. So he came over to talk to me. He got my number. And he called me the next day, which a lot of dudes don't do anymore. You know what I'm saying? Like calling you right away. Not a text, but a phone call.

A phone call. That was the other thing that was impressive. impressive I actually answered it right I was like hello you know and so um so yeah the and the rest was kind of history as they say and uh we had our first date a couple weeks later just so happened I was going to um Orange County in California for a work conference for for ESPN and then he his company happens to be headquartered in Orange County in California for a work conference for ESPN and then his company happens to be headquartered in Orange County and he was going to be there for business. He was going to be there regardless.

God did. I got a meeting out there. It just so happens. It just so what? You going there too? No, we were just talking on the phone and he was like, wait a minute, I'm going to be there too. And so he came over to my hotel and um we hung out had some drinks and uh you know he uh stayed overnight nothing

happened let me just say this because i see where y'all mind is going nothing happened and i thought like when he y'all didn't even care i mean did y'all didn't even kiss. Wait, what? She said nothing happened. I mean, did y'all kiss? I mean, don't marry now. You said nothing happened. Well, you're right. Let me clarify. No sex happened. Okay. All right. And yeah, we did kiss, but you know, we just slept.

And the next day I thought, man, as soon as daylight hit, this dude is going to be out of here. But he wasn't. He was like. He never left since. He was like, let's go to breakfast. I find it hilarious that he's out there recording if you haven't heard this story a million times like you haven't read the book like you haven't heard the audible he's like it never gets old i know right i think you

know i think you just want to see about if i if i tell some very you know some differing version than what he tells you you know, or whatever. He puts a little more sauce on what we first met than I do. But that is the truthful version of what happened. Now, you talk about in the book about your experiences growing up in Detroit. But what I want to know is how hard is it to let go of the Detroit in you when you're in these corporate environments? How much Detroit do you need? How many times do you go, what up, doe?

Well, of course, when I see somebody from Detroit, you know, as you know, Jalen Rose worked at ESPN, we see each other, we're like, what up, doe, right? You know what? The Detroit in me will never leave, and I don't think that's a bad thing. That doesn't mean that you're in meetings and corporate

environments having to cuss people out or do anything like that. But, you know, you let people know you have a boundary and that you expect to be respected. And I think the parts of Detroit that are in me are parts that are that have just done wondrous things for my life. You know, Detroit, Angela knows this. Detroit is a tough city. It's a resilient city. It's also a city where, you know, we take a lot of pride in being from there don't nobody put on for Detroit for Detroit like people from Detroit we got out yes exactly we got all of that yeah that's that's a part of who we are and so that's why in in my social media bio I say that you know I was raised in Detroit grew up in Michigan State like Detroit is going to always run hot and heavy through my blood and

also a little flossy all the time the fact that we wear meat coats to the movies like come on now you'll never take the Detroit education that you got there, I think, was incredible. Just to hear, because I feel like that shaped a lot of who you are today. Just being from there, but also the school that you went to. And then the mentors, or people that actually encouraged you to try different things. Because a lot of kids don't have that. Yeah, I mean, listen, there were so many pivotal points in my life where just a seed planted by somebody, just a word that got me to the next step that I was supposed to get to that encouraged me to kind of keep going. And, you know,

Detroit, I was largely, with the exception of two or three years, a public education student. You know, I went to public elementary school. I went to a public middle school, you know, Bobian Middle School, went to Mumford. That's where I graduated from high school. And it's another reason why public education is very important to me. I was lucky because Detroit gave me a firm sense of my identity. You know, it was a city. I think now it might currently be the blackest city in America because it's 80, 85 percent black. When I was growing up, it was over a million people lived in Detroit. It was like 90 percent black. You know, you didn't have to have First Fridays in Detroit. It was called going to the grocery store. You saw black people everywhere.

You know, you went. Yeah, now it is. But back then it wasn't like that. It was still ours, if you know what I mean. So having black teachers, having black male teachers throughout my entire schooling, like those were important identity moments. You know, I didn't have to go out of my way to learn about black history. My my teachers just taught it. It was just a part of the curriculum. You know, I took African-American history classes at Mumford. Right. So it was just like that was nothing new and so to go from that environment and then to go to Michigan State you know 40,000 students 80% of them white probably more than that it was like quite a culture shock for me but I was so glad to have had that experience of growing

up in Detroit because that allowed me to always have pride in my identity and you know know, to kind of carry that with me wherever I went. You know, that's why I laugh. And I'm sure you probably get this when people say going to HBCU is not the real world. I was like, no, you need to be rooted in who you are, because whatever environment you step into, you cannot let it change who you are or let them tell you who you are. Maybe Dominican. So even going to Michigan State you weren't even fathoming that you could have white roommates no I mean it was it was wild because but it was some of the racial conversations we used to have them good God thank God nobody had a phone because they would be like what but you know my my suite mates at the time they were they were from Sterling Heights, Michigan.

And we used to call it growing up Sterling whites. Right. Because it was because it was it was that white. Right. And, you know, they didn't even they didn't they had no idea who Malcolm X was. Wow. They they were like, we we get Martin Luther King Jr.'s. We get a day off for that. They had no idea. Like they were like, no, I think we were at school at school i was like that can't be the case it's a national holiday they they just didn't know they didn't have any exposure to black people outside of listening to the chronic like they really didn't like they didn't know anything and so um but in fairness i know a whole lot about white people so other you know obviously i knew way more history about white people than they knew about, you know, black people. But in terms of just being around white people, I didn't have that much experience with that.

So it was great. And we're still friends to this day that we were able to, you know, learn from each other. But, you know, there was some Michigan State like I mean, that was a place where, you know, I really came into my own and grew up. But in terms of, you know, having just real up close experiences with racism that all, you know, a lot of that started and happened there. Can we talk about, you know, you talk about what your mother taught you about black conservatives. About my article in The Atlantic. So, you know, my mother is she is a deep sense of her faith. She's a Christian and or a believer, you know, as she likes to put it. And because of her religious background are outside of faith because, you know, the one thing that's hilarious to me about, you know, Republicans is that they want to always label black people liberal. And y'all know and having conversations, especially with some elders, the black people, like they

conservative as hell. All from the South. Exactly. Especially those from the South. And so the black people won't have a problem with conservatives. We got a problem with racism. That's those are totally, you know,

different things. And so my mother, you know, she's old school and especially, you know, with her, um, being a believer,

she does not believe in abortion. And there's other ideals that she has, uh, that we clash on because clearly that's not where I'm coming from. And, but I think her her being that way has really given me insight about conservatives to particularly those that tie it to their Christian faith and so that's informed a lot of my opinions and even how I write about those issues when I'm

attacking conservatives usually this this era, this Trump conservative is totally different than the ones from back in the day, I think. Oh, it's definitely different. But, you know, as I write about in the book, there were things about Trump that appealed to my mother. Definitely. And I know that seems strange to say about, you know, a 60 something year old black woman from Detroit. But she she liked the macho shit. I mean, she liked the tough talk and the whole generation is soft. Like, that fed right into a lot of the things that she believes, you know? And she also watched them on The Apprentice, too.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, so I think while these Trump conservatives are markedly different, markedly more dangerous, there are some core principles they have that, frankly, Republicans have always had. He didn't invent a lot of the things that he's done. He perfected some of them. But, you know, when you look back at Ronaldonald reagan's presidency you see a lot of similarities yeah he evokes a lot of those talking points he totally does i don't touch on a few things without telling everything but chapter eight free press don't raise no punks respond

on that a little bit so that um title came from a very fun night that i had uh when i was covering michigan state basketball they had just beaten kent Kentucky in the Elite Eight and were on their way to their first Final Four since Magic took them in 79. So this is back in 1999. And, you know, I mean, Michigan State, because they were good, they had a lot of media coverage, a lot of Detroit media outlets and Michigan media outlets that were following them. And so after the game, you know, we know we headed to the Final Four. So we all went out to just hang out, get some drinks. And somehow we just started doing tequila shot

after tequila shot after tequila shot. And I might've been four or five in easy. And somebody was like, are we doing one more round? And most people tapped out. I was like, I ain't tapping out. Free press don't raise no pucks. And they never let me forget that.

So for years when I was on the beat every time I ran into another reporter who was there that night they'd be like free press don't raise no punks I was like I can't stand y'all so that is where that title came from yeah it's interesting that you didn't realize your voice how it could be so polarizing for certain people right to write an article and then to get responses where people are even threatening you. Yeah. And such a, at such a young age too. No, I mean, that started, like I started getting hate mail back at Michigan state. I mean, the first time I was called a nigger was at Michigan state. Right. And unfortunately, because I did have that experience there, had it at the Free Press, every place I worked, Orlando, Raleigh, I was called a racial slur.

Every place I was either told to, you know, I was either called a racial slur, told to go back to Africa or go right for Cosmo. It was going to be one of those three. And so why Cosmo? Oh, yeah. No. So every every time I had been told that. And so by the time it started happening at ESPN and especially after what I said about Donald Trump, I was I had already been through it. So it wasn't nearly effective. The problem is with the Trump thing like that took it to a whole new level. You know, I had certainly faced hate before my career and even gotten a couple of death threats.

That was different, you know? And when I was at ESPN and that happened, it was just like the mobs and mail, like, you know, you real racist when you take the time out to write somebody a letter calling them a nigger, among many other things. I was like i was like damn that took you had to put a stamp on this like i can see if you fire up a tweet or a facebook message like that's fast like you know what i'm saying that's that old school racism man i ain't got no wi-fi in them back

they like they took time out of their day to make sure they got that you you have to hold back talking about everything at ESPN to what in the book. Yeah. You know what? There was I don't think I held back. But I think there are parts of that story that, you know, frankly, didn't really go with the whole narrative of what is a whole lot of incidents. I could have certainly talked about. But it's like it just didn't make sense in terms of the storytelling rhythm. wanted to go plus you know ESPN was a chapter in my life it wasn't my

whole life and I realized that a lot of people may buy this memoir because they looking for the ESPN dirt and gossip I was honest I'm sure there are some people at ESPN that probably don't like some of the things that I put in there but it is what what it is. You were very honest. You said you were embarrassed sitting there while they were. He was reading verbatim what you said. Oh, man. Talking about the former president of ESPN, John Skipper, who is still a friend of mine. You know, we went through a rough period after the Donald Trump incident. And, you know, as I write about the most disappointing part about all of that, it wasn't what the president said. It wasn't the reaction. It wasn't the death threat.

The most disappointing part of that was that when he called me out, when the White House said that I should be fired, ESPN did not have my back. That was it, because there's a code in journalism for sure. And every newspaper I ever worked for, I fully believe that if that happened while I was at that paper, they would have put out a statement right away saying, uh-uh. Now, you may not like what she said, but she wanted us because that's the whole tenet of a free press, right? It's like you're supposed to be protected from government persecution. And there's so many examples in the history of journalism of where newspapers and outlets have done exactly that like when city hall comes after your reporter it's understood you got your reporters back and when ESPN didn't do that and just let me twist

and let me fry I was I was mad I was disappointed honestly I was hurt I had been there 11 years at that point I'm like we got to be better than this and one of the you know one of the healing aspects of my relationship with Skipper like when we met the day before I was coming off suspension and we went to have breakfast he apologized to me then and said he was sorry he said if there was one regret he had it was that he should have said something after uh trump or uh former press secretary sarah huckabee sanders said something about me did he tell you the truth too about how you know a lot of those network execs were afraid that trump wouldn't um clear the fox disney merger no he actually didn't he didn't tell me that is that like uh the equivalent of bill cosby was

buying nbc no that was actually true like people were afraid that he wasn't going to approve the the merger between fox disney i forgot who else it was well i i think a part of it um you know at that point if y'all remember in 2017 when you know those tweets happened and i got in the crosshairs of the president espn was at a very interesting juncture like they were being called too political too too left liberal leaning and you know which I thought in many ways was just coded racism because suddenly you see a new emergence of faces at ESPN you know you had Stephen A Smith becoming the face of the network you had me you had Michael Smith you had Bomani Jones um all these uh Sarah Spain Kate F, like all these different new diverse voices that were that had major platforms, you know, Dan Levitard.

So suddenly you see a mix up in terms of what the talent looks like at ESPN. And then all of a sudden they too political and too liberal, you know, because people often white America, just our presence to them is political. Our presence to them is liberal. We're reminding them of something just by sitting here. We could say nothing political at all. and they would swear we were political so that's why i used to get so pissed when mike and i were doing sports center and they used to call our show political we never talked about politics they acted like when they turned to sports center we were breaking down immigration reform that like never happened and we got sick of talking about colin kaepernick not because his story was important.

But we had producers that every time a quarterback was signed would come running. That's like, y'all want to talk about Colin Kaepernick? I was like, no, we don't. Like we said what we said. It's already been established that the NFL is not going to let him back into playing football. And so people were trying to create a narrative around our show just because we were our black ass selves on tv and that was you know really a difficult period to go through as you're trying to get a new show off the ground trying to find your footing and all of this noise and narrative is around the show about it not being too political and mike and i are racist and they started calling us woke center like that was some that was some that was some bullshit. Like, it really was.

I find it hilarious that ESPN had to turn right back around, though, and they couldn't run from the fact that there was an intersectionality between politics, social issues, and sports. Yeah, I mean, it's just, I think they went through a period of time where they just didn't have the stomach for the fight. And especially when it came to me and our show,

that when you had all these right wing publications media outlets writing about us all the time you know whenever we discussed anything that was you know remotely close to race or you know anything that came up within the you know the realm of sports they just didn't want any part of that. And, you know, their relationship with the NFL was a little tenuous. And so I think they kind of took a cowardly way out for a little while. And so when they hired, you know, our friend Angela Rye and they seem to be ready to reengage in those conversations, particularly after George Floyd. I was I was mostly happy for my former colleagues because I know that a lot of them had a lot of things they wanted to say and didn't feel the comfort or safety to say them.

And seeing the company kind of reverse course a little bit, I think was helpful for them so that they could join the dialogue. Now, before you get about it, we got to ask a couple of sports questions. Real quick, one more thing about the book then chapter five you pay homage to judy bloom with that title are you there guys it's me you got it see you know man beverly cleary and judy judy bloom got me through man i don't know right you know but shoot the way people acting about this book man and judy bloom might be bad right now i have no idea. She might be. Are you there? God is me.

Margaret might not be a thing anymore. I always feel like young adult novels are so important too. Yeah, no. Because I think about all the things. I even used to read them Sweet Valley High books. I used to read Sweet Valley High too. Choose Your Own Adventure. Oh, I love Choose Your Own Adventure.

Oh, I used to love Choose Your Own Adventure. Like those are, see, that's it. You remember when Netflix did that Black Mirror episode where it was Choose Your Own Adventure? I have never seen Black Mirror. Really? No. They got a Choose Your Own Adventure Black Mirror.

No way. Yes, well, it's interactive. Like, that shit is great. All right, I got to peep that. Now my sports question. Oh, God. Draymond Green, Jordan Poole. Draymond Green punches him in the face.

Can Jordan Poole stay there and play comfortably there? Well, and I think this is this was evident before this incident, just because the state that they, you know, go to state is in in terms of their finances. I mean, that's a hell of a check. They don't have to write in luxury taxes alone if they decide to to resign Draymond, give him a new deal rather. And so I think it was probably trending toward him not being there anyway and you know I know Draymond good dude I know people have polarizing opinions about him that was a bad moment obviously now the only thing I debated with people who called it a sucker punch that was not a sucker punch right like it's just you there's an aggressive moment that's happening and i know that's your teammate and people like oh but you know he should

have recognized that's his teammate he wasn't expecting a punch uh have you seen family members fight yes i certainly have right so um i just think that was a really bad moment for him i think he recognizes that i think he is honestly remorseful, but I don't see them coexisting. Jordan Poole should have ducked because here's the thing. If you push somebody that hard, you gotta expect something in return. Something is coming back. Right. Yeah. I mean, this is not Jordan Poole's

fault at all, but I think because of the finances, he won't be there. They're repeating this year, though. They are repeating this year. Yeah. You know, I was on the fence at first because I was like, I don't know because this might be one of those. Oh, no, because of this incident. Because this might want to be one of those things that, like, early in the season, there's certainly, you know,

some momentum that you have now. But the season drags on. You know, I don't know. I don't know how they respond and are able to play when you have that big of an issue that's kind of right there. But these guys are veterans. I think they're hungry. I think they kind of know it's their last stand.

So I do. I expect them to repeat as well. Ben Simmons, Russell Westbrook. What's the question? Ben Simmons. I mean, who's better? Is that what we do? You know, you're messy. What's the one word that comes to your mind when you think Ben Simmons, Russell's better? Is that what we do? You know, you messy.

What's the one word that comes to your mind when you think Ben Simmons, Russell Westbrook? Miss. Right? But, you know, honestly, I feel really bad for Russell Westbrook because, you know, especially. She just going to jump over Ben Simmons' baguette. No, no, no. I mean, Ben Simmons, I think he's not as bad as people think, you know, and what you hate to see

is when you look at an athlete and you could tell psychologically something's going on. Yes. You know what I'm saying? And it's just, it feels like criticizing him. And this is not to say

that he doesn't deserve, you know, some criticism, but it just feels like he's mentally worn out. That's what he seems like to me russell westbrook is the same thing is that because russell is clearly frustrated i don't russell doesn't want to play this shitty like he doesn't want to do that but now and and this is the gift and curse of playing with lebron it's never going to be lebron's fault i'm not saying

it is but the people that play around leBron remember how the people used to be on Chris Bosh all the time like it's always somebody that when they play with them that becomes the target for all the frustration over you know losing over all of this and it's Russell Westbrook they have made him the villain of the team and I'm not talking about the organization itself but fans you know and he's clearly struggling um I kind of agree with what Charles Barkley said I don't really see the joy in his game like I used to like he's certainly still a great athlete but you'd be crazy not to think it's not mentally wearing on him that he's not thinking about this every time he takes a shot the fact that the fans are booing him it reminds me of when Josh Smith

played in Atlanta and every time he took a three-pointer the crowd be like no it's like I feel like I hear that every time Russell takes a shot. Like, people are mad, right? And so to play like that in your hometown, right, and that's the vibe? You can't tell me that mentally that wouldn't break you a little bit. That's interesting because I feel like Ben is mental and Russ is just physical. Like, Russ still got that energy and that confidence. I just don't know if he's physically able

to play the way he used to. I mean, I sense certainly the energy. I don't mean to make it sound like he's mellowed it in or like that, but it's like a joy that comes to playing

with basketball and it doesn't feel like he's playing with a lot of joy. No cowboy questions? I thought I was going to get some. We're going to the Super Bowl. I don't need you to tell me

that we're going to the Super Bowl. Let's go there. What do you think about my New York Giants? I think the Giants look good you know I mean I'm sure Daniel Jones is thinking about how he got slandered when they made that pick and now a couple years he got slandered definitely last couple years but they didn't have as good of a team I think as they have now love Brian Dayball like you know definitely one of those coaches I've been watching for a while and so he coach he felt like he would be a good fit for this team so look New York football Jets and Giants you know Roberts a lot like he was a I'm a 49ers fan he was well as you gonna be a going to be a Lions fan? Yeah. Listen, I value my mental health.

In that way, that's what you talk about, Char, all the time, right? It's like, mental health is wealth. For my mental health, I was never a Lions fan. And it's crazy because my husband's a huge Lions fan. He was at the Cowboys game, by the way. He busted their ass on Sunday. Busted their ass busted their ass and uh no I mean so my mother as y'all know from reading the book you know she spent some time in in Oakland um you know and that's where I was I think conceived okay and so because of that

she liked the 49ers and so you know she would root for the Lions and for the 49ers. She really liked Joe Montana. That was like one of her favorite players. And so I just, you know, they were winning. You went with that team. Why would you not go with the winning team, right? So it's like, well, Greta, you grew up in South Carolina, so y'all didn't have your own NFL team.

And a lot of black fans that were not in NFL cities were Cowboys fans, even some that were not in NFL cities were Cowboys fans, even some that were. In D.C., it's kind of a not-so-quiet secret. There's a lot of Cowboys fans in D.C., right? And so, at any rate, I just became a 49ers fan. I've been with them ever since. But Robert Saleh was a great coach for us. So when he was going through that last year with the Jets, I was like,

this dude, he about to show them. Because he gets players to buy in, certainly from a schematic standpoint. He's a really good coach. What about the Cowboys? What are your thoughts on them? Offense still looking a little rough, Char. We do. Looking a little rough.

But that defense, it's a championship level defense. And this was the kind of defense I wish tony romo would have had you know that's that that's no in no way a shot at dac prescott but people like to as you know um they like to hate on tony romo but they forget that he had categorically some of the worst defenses in nfl history and i was like damn if they had this defense with him y'all might have won it y'all might have won a couple but they didn't the giants got the second best record in the league you know who beat them yo here we go did y'all go through this a couple. They didn't. The Giants got the second best record in the league. You know who beat them?

Oh, here we go. Y'all go through this on a daily basis. I just want to make sure. You know who beat the Giants, right? The third best team? Just letting you know. Just letting you know. But I like the Cowboys, but you know I ain't picking them over the 49ers. I don't know.

Right? But you know we're going to the Super Bowl this year, though. Because defense wins championships. We know. We know that in San Francisco. That's why we had to come to Dallas last year and give y'all a piece. That is very true. That is very true.

We appreciate you for joining us. Go get up hills. Out right now. Thank you, guys. Thank you so much. I appreciate y'all. Oh, and I just want to say one last thing about Jameel Hill. When I announced my show, she called me in the middle of the night from Portugal.

You were in Portugal, right? No, I wasn't in Portugal. But I was somewhere out of the country. Was I in France? Maybe I was in south of France hanging with this dude. Oh, that might have been it. Oh, that's what you said. Was that before that?

I don't remember. Oh, yeah, you were here? Okay, so maybe I was, but I was gone. You were gone. No, no, I went on the night and she was like, I just want to say congratulations. I was like, that is so nice. Yeah, no, Angela.

You did that. I appreciate you. I'm really proud of you for doing your thing. And as I wrote in the note to you in the book is that you, you know, the agency, you betting on yourself, like that's very, not just admirable, but it's very inspiring for somebody like me who throughout this season of my career, that's what I've done is I bet on myself. So I love seeing other women do, you know, the same thing. Jamel, can you tell them to leave? I appreciated it.

Listen. Y'all get off my girl. Let me tell you something. I was late. Envy was stressed because he had to do my job. Because she was late

this morning. But you want me to leave? I didn't show up. Thank you guys. Go get up Hill. Jamel Hill. Her memoir is out right now. That's right.

I'm trying to be a bestseller, y'all. There we go. Breakfast club, good morning. Oh, my. As a kid, I really do remember having these dreams and visions, but you just don't know what is going to come for you. Alicia shares her wisdom on growth, gratitude, and the power of love. I forgive myself.

It's okay. Have grace with yourself. You're trying your best, you're gonna figure out the rhythm of this thing. Alicia Keys, like you've never heard her before. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Had enough of this country? Ever dreamt about starting your own? I planted the flag. This is mine. I own this. It's surprisingly easy.

55 gallons of water, 500 pounds of concrete. Or maybe not. No country willingly gives up their territory. Oh my God. What is that? Bullets. Listen to Escape from Zakistan. That's Escape from Z-A-Q-istan. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast Post Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, my undeadly darlings. It's Teresa, your resident ghost host.

And do I have a treat for you. Haunting is crawling out from the shadows, and it's going to be devilishly good. We've got chills, thrills, and stories that'll make you wish the lights stayed on. So join me, won't you? Let's dive into the eerie unknown together. Sleep tight, if you can. Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up? This is Ramses Jha.

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