The Breakfast Club - Nedra Glover Tawwab On Managing Unhealthy Relationships, Cycle Breakers, Fostering Your Kids + More

Episode Date: February 28, 2023

Nedra Glover Tawwab On Managing Unhealthy Relationships, Cycle Breakers, Fostering Your Kids + MoreSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Morning everybody, it's DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. She's back. Najah Glover-Tawad, welcome. Hey. How are you, first of all? I am well, I'm excited.

Okay, new book coming out, Drama Free. Drama Free. A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. You have no idea how on time this book is. What does the title mean? What doesn't it mean? what is an unhealthy relationship it's anything that is problematic and persistent you know it's not just childhood trauma it's also issues with in-laws and blended families and some of these cousins and all sorts of things so what made you write this book do you have some some you have

some problems in your family that you had to sort out uh well you know i'm a therapist so i help people with problems and i think we all to some degree have something it doesn't have to be a big thing it could be a misunderstanding but we need the tools you know what i thought about this week and i didn't even tell charlamagne this because it came to me when i was uh somebody asked me a question uh when i was going through problems in my relationship with my wife. I was talking to my daughter at the time. She must have been about 16. And I had cheated and I told my daughter and my daughter said, well, dad, who told on you? And at first I thought it was the funniest thing. My daughter riding for me. And then I thought about it. Am I setting a precedent where she feels like it's OK?

Like who told on you? Was it like that? You heard about the cheating is's about getting caught right yeah and and it affected me this weekend and it hurt me i never thought about it and i thought about it this weekend and i was like damn am i setting a precedent where she feels like it's okay where somebody's supposed to forgive like this is just what men do and it really bothered me like i cried this weekend because i was like damn i did that but at first i was like yeah that's my daughter she's my ride or die that's my best friend that's what we do but then i was like nah that's why the beijing look a little light on this side because you cried and they wiped it away a little bit okay so so did you go back and talk to your daughter and talk to her about the moment you have with

yourself no not yet she's she's 21 now so she's a lot older now she understands a lot better but you know when she was going through her teen years and she was dating i was i didn't think about it but then i said i could have set her up for destruction i could have set her up for going down the wrong route because of the way i handled it and you know it was a problem yeah we have to stop this forgiving and forgetting culture it's not healthy for us because what i found is we're not forgetting and we're not really forgiving that's real we are very upset and passive-aggressive in these relationships with people and so there does have to be room for them harming us and we're still bothered yeah what i love about this new book is uh you know the fact that you're telling us to set boundaries for you know unhealthy families because you know

people think just because they're your family you owe them something or you're obligated to answer their phone calls or to go see them. I totally disagree with that concept. So why are boundaries always such a focal point for your books? Because I think it is a focal point for relationships. We have to create new expectations and with family we do give a lot of passes it's like well this is so and so so they should always answer the phone when i call well that person has a job that's right and the the thing that they're doing right now is more important than hearing about your court show or whatever that is you know i think sometimes um we have to set a new standard within families especially with the level of awareness we have now i think this is now the time when people are more aware of oh i don't have to call them back i don't have to visit them we are woke

and we are aware of where we want to be and where we don't want to be. Isn't that a bad thing? You know, because it's your family should be a village, right? That should be the people that you, you know, lend an ear to or fall back on when things happen. And I feel like a lot of times we're getting away from that. We're getting away from the black family learning the black family, right? Like, you know, my grandfather would tell me about my great grandfather and would tell me about my aunt. And it was just so many different things that told us our history. I feel like with that mentality that I've seen a lot of people having, I'm feeling like we're losing that a little bit.

Like I ain't calling that person back. I'm not close to that person, but we're losing that lineage, that line to tell us where we came from and how it was. You don't think? I would challenge that. I think when there's someone I want to talk to I call them back I think in in families we have to think about not just being related but also relationship and sometimes we are not calling people back or we're not wanting to visit them because of the lack of relationship and we're focused on, oh my gosh, this is my blood.

Well, we still have to have something in common. We still have to have respect for each other. We still have to be able to disagree. So there are so many other factors. So I think it's actually a calling to be a better person in your relationships with your family members to figure out, huh, why might they not be calling me back? Why don't they want to visit? Why are they leaning more towards these other things? It could be, you know, something that people need to address and not just say, oh, this generation don't want to talk to anyone. Well, it's for a reason because we all like to talk and we all like to be heard. So if someone isn't talking to you, why? how can you tell the difference between like family dysfunction and

that's just how we've always been well the norm can be normal for you it can still be unhealthy there are a lot of things that i hear you know oh we used to get beat or oh you know this is how my mama talked to me and it's like well cussing you out it can be the norm in your family but it's like, well, cussing you out, it can be the norm in your family, but it's not healthy. And so some of those things we have to think about in general is this behavior that should be tolerated by anyone. Is this behavior that I was except from a friend? Is this behavior that I would see, you know, as suitable from a partner? And we're not thinking about that sometimes with family we're giving a lot of passes and we're saying oh my gosh but this is well you still deserve to be treated a certain way so you know i i think with family we have to learn to exist in those systems in a healthier way what's the biggest misconception you see when it comes to family some things that people

seem like they always go through or they thought was a problem and we got to love people never mind i'm sorry that you have to like people there you go i love a lot of people that i don't speak to often or that i may not like all of their ways but you know i think loving and liking is is two different different things. And with families, it's like, you have to like everyone. You have to talk to this cousin. You have to, you know, and it's, I think a family is like a class,

right? Like when you start a new grade, there's 30 people in your class. I went to Detroit public school. So it was 30 people in my class, but it's 30 people in your class and maybe three or four you vibe with. Right. I think it's the same with families

like it's some people is whatever their personality your personality is like this cousin this aunt and this uncle come on y'all and the rest of them it's like oh no they're all cool i really like them but there are just certain people personality wise and that's the part we're not considering that there are people even with your children there are certain you know certain kids you're like this this my guy you know based on personality based on how much they seem to be like you or interested in your life my oldest daughter likes to tell me that my my third daughter is my favorite and that bothers me is it true i don't think so you know but it's like i don't think so. You know, but it's like, I don't like it. If he don't think it's true.

He'd be like, no. I don't think so. No, because I don't feel like I have a favorite child. And I've been trying to explain that to her. And she does it like, like even yesterday, you know, my third daughter was trying to get them to look at something, like a picture she drew. And she was asking questions.

What do y'all think this is? And they were kind of ignoring her, not on purpose, but they were having conversations with each other. And I'm like, pay attention to what she's saying. And my oldest daughter was like, Oh, you just wanted to pay attention.

Cause that's your favorite child. And that, that like makes me hot. Does your third daughter remind you of yourself? No, actually my second daughter does. Okay. So I wonder,

I wonder why they're seeing this allegiance. I don't know. Well, something don't know well something is happening so something is happening you may not be clear of what it is but it's something happening there whether it's like you're over it like pay attention to her you know whatever with her something is happening i find that with parents sometimes they will deny no i don't have a favor to know i treat everybody the same when clearly they are not. And that's okay because we don't treat all people the same. And it's okay to recognize that. Like, hey, I am giving this person more attention because of X, Y, Z, or I noticed that too.

And, you know, maybe try to be fair or maybe not, you know. But I think to deny it sometimes can be problematic for the sibling relationship. I just feel like that could lead to an unhealthy family relationship amongst the siblings. Absolutely. Because they think I'm playing favorites and I'm not. I think that's in everybody's family when you have a bunch of kids. See, I was the only child, so I didn't have to go through that.

I was the child. Like, I was the favorite because there's nothing else. But in any family like mine, it's like I cater to my daughters more than my sons. Why? Because my daughters cater to me. They're loving sons why because my daughter's catered to me they're loving they're cuddling with daddy if i get sick they're gonna lay in bed and rub daddy's back that might be it you know i mean that's what my third daughter that's for real that's what they

do that's it you know i mean the rest of them like your dad you're good i see like but the rest of it they gonna lay there like they're gonna they're gonna come for dad and you take a liking to that yeah yeah but do you acknowledge that? Do you say that to them? Like you're right. And this is why. So here's an opportunity for you to come cuddle with me. Yeah.

But you know what? And this is going to sound crazy. My son is a 19 year old football player. If he got in the bed and cuddle with me, it would just feel awkward to me. I mean, look at me like that. That's wild,

bro. You got six kids. Yes. Three of them are cuddle age. Would you reference at me like that? That's wild, bro. You got six kids. Yes. Three of them are cuddle age. Would you reference the 19-year-old son? No, because my daughter's cuddle with me. My daughter. Because they're two and three.

My daughter is 21. The adults. The adults. My daughter's 21. She get in bed and cuddle with dad. My nine, my eight, my six, my one-year-old. But my 19, it would just feel a little awkward. That's messed up man that's why

men feel that's why we be so closed off and don't know how to show emotions you know what i mean get that man a little cuddle time my son with his armpit hair on me and it's like that's not gonna that's horrible bro that's horrible i'm sorry now let's talk about cycle breakers yes now that's very important especially when it comes to our dynamical family right's talk about cycle breakers. Yes. Now that's very important, especially when it comes to our dynamical family. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Cycle breakers are people who are the first in their family to do a thing. The first in their family to to be rich, who have not changed, from the people who are still in, you know, maybe some of those unhealthy relationships. Because, you know, it's hard to see people do something that you couldn't or do something that feels like a threat to who you are or do something that, you know, makes you think, gosh, am I supposed to change too? So being a cycle breaker, I think a lot of their support comes from people outside their family.

Sometimes it comes from, you know, that chosen family. It may come from, you know, some of those other family members that you don't see as often. It may come from watching TV shows and identifying with, you know, some influencer or all sorts of things. But, you know, I think cycle breaking is important. And it's also really tough because you have to figure out a way to be supported. That's why you're an amazing author and amazing therapist, because you just be hitting things right on the nose.

And it makes people not feel crazy because everything you just said is true, even especially the fact of having to find family outside of your family those that that chosen family how important is chosen family oh my gosh it's everything you know and our families we sometimes choose remember i said you know it might be these three people that you pick but you know when we are outside of that family system we have the ability to go to work and say, OK, I really like this person. I really like this person. Come on. You're you're my family now. And we can do that with our friends. And it's just easier.

The relationships are based on not blood, but just how we feel about each other. They're more authentic. And I think that is the really important piece with with the chosen family. I also wanted to discuss giving families grace, giving your family members grace, right? We talk about it all the time. The way that our parents were raised, the world changes so much. The things that our parents say, what they talk about, you know, from something small to how we were raised to beatings back in the day. So do you talk about empathy and grace when it comes to family members? Because you said, you know, yeah, I mess with you and I mess with you.

I don't really mess with this family member, but this family member might have been raised differently. And that's the reason why you don't like them. Yes. I have a part in the book where I talk about like how to stop hating your parents. And that's all about grace because our parents have a story. And some of us know the story and some of us do not. But I am certain that it is the reason that they parented you in a certain way.

And when I think about, you know, when my mother tells me stories about herself, I'm like, oh, girl, I see why. You know, because it's it's not what I'm experiencing or it's it's different than what I'm experiencing so it's very easy as a child to have judgments of people you know when we're kids we think like this person should be doing this because they're an adult and as an adult I'm looking like oh these adults just as messy on social media as the kids you know or or these adults have the same issues that you know they've had for a long time so adults don't have it figured out they just happen to be parents and so we do have to think about oh my gosh like people have so much stuff going on and we have these expectations

of them and we have to start to see them as people i want to go back to building support outside of your family. Cause you know, you have a chapter in drama free where you talk about that and like, do you mean in like absent of like, if your blood family isn't showing up for you, should you build a family outside of that? But what if you do have some blood family members you rock with? Should you still look to build a family outside of them? All of it.

I mean, is there a such thing as having too much love or too many people? I't think so yeah so we need blood family chosen family neighbors uh all of it i would i would i would accept it all you know i think there are some folks who unfortunately they don't have that love and support in their families and they have to have you know a complete new family but you know many people have a few people here and there and many people have everyone in their family. So it really depends, but it is an important piece. I've also seen people be very closed off to having anyone

who's not a blood relative around them. You know, isolating, I don't hang out with people because I only talk to my family. Well, it's not a lot of nice people in the world. You may want to include some. Troubleshooting relationships with siblings. Yes, I wanted to talk about that. So Charlamagne mentioned earlier that

his third was his favorite. I did not say that. He didn't think so. Almost think so. Don't spread that lie. How does that spread? Now, the older daughter might hate or dislike the third one because of that. But the third one really didn't really do anything. So let's talk about that sibling aspect.

Because, Charlamagne, how many brothers and sisters do you have? Five. Well, five that I grew up with. Two that my dad had outside of marriage. But five that I grew up with. Four that I grew up with. And how are your relationships with all of them? Are you all good?

Is there something that you like more than the others? Never mind. Don't put them on the spot. You love everybody equally. Your heart is in five. So how do you tell siblings to deal with that? You know, I, I think it goes back to that. You know, it's based on your personality. It's it's a talk to Charlemagne. Okay. It's, it's based on your personality. Talk to Charlemagne. Okay. It's based on your personality.

It's based on who you feel you can have that authentic relationship with. And we don't feel like that with everyone, even if they're related to us. And with siblings, sometimes a lot of that stuff that happens in childhood, you start to develop this idea of, you know, my parent bailed this person out or my parent did this and it was this person's fault. And that does impact adult relationships. Another thing that I see impacting siblings is when the oldest sibling had to be a caretaker for the younger siblings. And they have this idea of like, this is my sister, but it's my child.

This is my brother, but this is my baby. And here it is, you're 40 and they're 35 and you're mothering them. And then there's this issue of, well, they don't want your mothering anymore. Now they want a sister. So how do we transition out of that role and really into a sibling relationship?

You know, we can redefine our relationships with people at any point and talk about some of the resentment if there is a favorite child situation, because you're right. It's not one child's fault that that happens. It's, you know, really based on the parent's choice, but it is easier sometimes for them to be mad at the sibling. So those are conversations to have. And I also think, you know, you can't force sibling relationships, right?

Like I'm the second oldest, but it's such an age gap between me and my oldest sister. And it's such an age gap between my two younger brothers and younger sisters. So I love them, but we didn't necessarily have that relationship growing up because everybody was busy doing their own thing. Like my two younger brothers are super close because they're closer in age. So is it a parent's job to like force those relationships to happen? No. I think sometimes parents think they're supposed to, right?

Like, you know, this is your brother. Y'all have to stick together. This is your sister. You have to stick together. But a lot of that is just natural. You'll see small kids like, I want to hold my baby brother. And another kid might be like, I'm going outside. You know, so how do we allow people to select their people?

So we shouldn't force them. Because I force my kids. Okay. Like I have a 19-year-old and I have an 8-year-old. And I would be like, when you go to football practice, take your your brother with you let him hang out with his brother you know what I mean that's not like caretaking to me no no no it's not because I want him to experience that because there's some things that I didn't

play football as a kid my 19 year old does and he's a good player and I can tell that my 8 year old looks up to him as a football player so I would like go out with your brother go play with your brother go play at Logan in man Logan going to college next year how about it see he keeps play basketball. Go bring Logan in man. Logan going to college next year. How about it. See.

He keeps saying he's 19. In high school. No. No. He go to college next year. Oh. His birthday December 28th. But.

That's what I do. Even with. You know. With. Whatever it may be. Playing video games. I don't play video games. My 19 year old does.

So I be like. Go in the room with your brother. I force him to do it. And I notice. It keeps them close. So now. My 8 year old. Will come in my room. Be like, Dad, can I sleep in Logan's room? I'm like, go ask him.

But he's starting to develop that bond where it is close. So I kind of force him to do it. Fostering is the word you want to use, not force. You help them foster a relationship by making these suggestions. And it sounds like over time they have both grown to appreciate that. Forcing is when you say, take this kid with you and they're like, ugh, I don't want to do it.

Right? So you're helping them learn to have a relationship together. And that is healthy. Now, when you're forcing your children to be close, I think that's different. It's not really closeness. It is, you know, we can do this while we're here,

but when people leave your home, like how do you want those relationships to be? And that's what you need to think about. Like if you're forcing it, well, when they leave home and they're out in the world, who's going to force it then? No one. There's no real

closeness so if you're fostering it and they're both open to having close relationships then yeah but forcing it i think is not necessarily my biggest technique because my biggest fear and this is just me something i gotta work through but i don't think i'm ever gonna get through it is me not being there right so something happens to me or i'm not there i'm trying to create a tight family that they can look after each other so my dad has two sisters right and to this day my dad is 80 years old if something happens to one of his sisters he is there doctor's appointment one lives in virginia one lives in westchester he is there and i love that relationship when their mom died

he became they all like protect each other at 80 they'll fight for each other right now that's what i'm trying to establish with this little tribe that no matter what you look out for each other if something happens this one has your back you can call this one no matter what it may be you know that's what i try to establish with the family vibe well I will say that it sounds like you have a healthy foundation where that is possible I think some people do not um and that's where you start to see a lot of that conflict and lack of closeness your kids have a two-parent household your kids it sounds like have a lot of love they have the support of each other um I think they'll be okay I think they'll have that closest I think there

are other situations where you know when you think about some serious family issues people are like vying for very little attention from you know an absent parent or um a parent who is self-absorbed and all of these sort of things. And so, yeah, those sibling relationships are impacted. But when you have two parents showing up to be there for children, yeah, there's a higher likelihood that they will have that. One of the questions off of that, another question that people always ask and people talk about all the time is the closeness between mom and child right people say you can't be your child's best friend right because that's one thing people say that's my

best friend my daughter's my best friend my son's my best friend i'm people you people but how do you feel about that um when someone is a child i don't think so because it's one-sided um you certainly wouldn't share you know know, with your child, girl, we went to the club, not appropriate mom. But you can listen to a lot of what your kid is saying and you can give them some feedback and hopefully they have a relationship where they trust being able to talk to you.

I wouldn't necessarily call that a best friendship as much as I would say that is a healthy relationship with your child. You don't want to be in a best friendship where you're oversharing with your child. Your child is hyper-focused on your needs because you have so much stuff going on. That's where it gets a little murky. It's like, okay, what is this? What is the definition of this best friendship if it's you caring for your child and your child is just being open with you okay cool that's best friendship for you but if it's you know this person is always here for me where they're eight you know they should not always they shouldn't always be there for you find you some friends at work um but i think when kids get

older you know and i don't even know if it's in their 20s i think it takes a certain amount of living life for you to be able to start having those conversations where the parent can start to pull back a bit and not, I don't want to say hi so much, but not be as open. Because I think it's some stuff we can tell kids. It's just inappropriate. And I think it's something that 20-somethings can tell parents that's inappropriate. Like how healthy is it for a 20-something-year-old daughter

to be talking to her dad about the sex life. I don't want to hear that. Well, maybe not details, but knowing your daughter is sexually active, I guess that's okay. Details, it depends on the father's comfort level. Yeah. See, I know what you're talking about, because I don't want to be too cool. No, that's it.

That's all. I agree with you. This is a direct situation. That's it. That's all I agree with. This is a, a direct situation. Okay. All right. Yeah. Not amongst us.

Just some things we've been overhearing. Now you, you refer to family as a cultural system in the book drama free. What did that mean? So families have their own thing, you know, in your family, it might be,

you know, when you have a baby to baby, go live with your grandma for three months or, you know, whatever your program is. It is how you learn to be, how you learn to exist. When we get married, we do this. When we, whatever, this is what happens. It is a whole culture. I think what's interesting is when we take our culture and we try to move that culture into the world, when we try to get married and we try to get into relationships and we're telling our partner what's normal. And they're like, no, this is what we did in my family.

That's where you start to see like, oh, this is how my family was. And now we have to figure out a new culture for ourselves. We have to figure out a new way to engage because maybe neither one of those things work for us. And we need a new way of being. And that's when you start getting into, you know, maybe the blended family and in-law stuff. But yeah, we come with a system of, you spoke about it with your dad and his siblings. Like the culture is you are close to your siblings. If something happens to them. Now, if one of your kids steps outside of that,

it's like, oh my gosh, why is he over here like not checking on his sisters or not doing this thing? Because the culture has already been established in your family and that expectation has been set. So, you you know the cultural the cultural piece is only problematic when somebody sort of breaks away from it and the others disagree because for a lot of especially our families it's more the i told you so syndrome right growing up as a kid is dad can i go there no why because i told you so my wife is a little

different it took me a long time to get to it because i was the same way right my dad's retired police officer so that's what he did right i told you so why because he didn't want to tell me the reasons why but my wife said so right but my wife likes to have conversations right i don't like the conversations because it's if i tell you something do it but my kids like but why can't I but why doesn't that make sense and she'll sit there and have conversation with them all day I guess it's a better way because they understand the reason why and they don't

leave being mad and don't leave being hateful what is your suggestion when it comes to that I'm a mom so I do a little explain and I also over talk to my dog so you know get off of there go in the it's like sit could have helped right sit is enough you're already messing up stuff right I'm saying way

too much so you ever talk back never thankfully um but yeah I think with kids it is helpful sometimes to give them some reason you know kids are people and it is hopeful for them to know why and how and what this means because in the future hopefully with that understanding they'll be able to tap into that conversation and say oh this is why I shouldn't do that without that level of understanding you may not know next time so it can be helpful to just explain things and that is a cultural shift right when you come from just because i said so well all the because i said so's weren't healthy

for us we have some adults telling us stuff and it's like she did not know what she's talking about you know so so if somebody can explain their why sometimes it could be really helpful for them in the future and sometimes you'll hear them talking to their friends and you're like, oh, those are my words. So it helps. I want people to go pick up the book Drama Freezer. I don't want to give too much away, but I love the resisting the urge to operate in dysfunction chapter

because sometimes I wonder, I don't think people can help it if they haven't done the work to even recognize this is dysfunctional. To them, they're just operating in normalcy. So what does that mean, resisting the urge to operate in dysfunction, especially if you don't know it's dysfunction? It's learning to be different. I think we have so many times in life where we are shown different things, and it's up to us to pick it up, whether that's visiting a friend's house,

seeing something on TV. If we just process some of that information, like, wow, that's what they do in their house, and have those conversations, even with our siblings, with other family members, with our friends, you will learn that some of the things that you are experiencing, they may be normal for you, but they are not necessarily the healthiest.

All right. Well, we appreciate you for joining us this morning. Pick up the book, Drama Free. And listen, this Wednesday I'm going to be in conversation with Ms. Nadra Tawwab Glover at the Bell House, Brooklyn, New York

at 7 p.m. Okay? It might be sold out already. I don't know. I think it's pretty sold out. It is, right? Okay. Well, I guess for more information and tickets, visit nadratawwab.com. If it's sold out already. I don't know. I think it's pretty sold out. It is, right? Okay. Well, I guess for more information and tickets, visit NadraTawab.com. If it's sold out, don't worry about it. But definitely go out there and pick up the book whenever you purchase your books. That's right. Drama Free, A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships.

Always a pleasure talking to you. Yeah. Thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you. All right. It's The Breakfast Club. Good morning.