The Breakfast Club - Ryan Coogler & Peter Nicks On Reimagining The National Anthem, American Roots, Symbolism + More

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

Ryan Coogler & Peter Nicks On Reimagining The National Anthem, American Roots, Symbolism + MoreSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Charlamagne Tha Guy. We are The Breakfast Club. We got some special guests joining us this morning. Yes, indeed. We got Ryan Coogler and Peter Nix. Welcome, fellas. What's up? Thanks for having us. How y'all feeling? Feeling good. Feeling good?

Yeah, man. Happy to be invited. New documentary, Anthem. Yeah, man. I've long felt like the national anthem, like most things in America need to be changed to represent the world we currently live in. Clearly, y'all felt the same, which is why the doc was created, right? Absolutely. I mean, I think we're in a time right now where we're examining our identity, you know, searching for our identity, trying to express it in different ways. And how we express those identities and that the moment felt right to inquire and to go a little bit deeper on the history of that song.

And also the opportunity to imagine what an anthem would be like for today that reflects the American story. What made you dive deep into the anthem? Right. Because we're in school. You learn it. You don't really think much of it. This was very knowledgeable because it taught where the origin came from. When you're a student, they don't teach you the origin, they just say sing it, you know what I mean? So what made y'all dive deep into actually understanding, learning, and to even discuss this? I've been looking at a couple of projects that were examining this collision between patriotism and protest, and obviously we're seeing it in the headlines uh every day i've always wanted to make a music doc number one um and the the anthem seemed like a perfect stage to examine the american voice in the american the american story and also this

notion that music does bring us together and that may be a project using music as an exploration of the American story could in some way reflect some idea of optimism in this difficult time that we're in right now. I'm learning that, you know, I guess stand-up comedy is such an inspiration for creative minds like yourself because Anthem seems to be rooted in a bit from Roy Woods Jr. And then y'all walked in and y'all said y'all was out last night watching Chappelle and Chris Rock. So what is it about comedy that sparks those seeds? I don't know.

I think personally I think like stand-up is probably like the highest form of storytelling with like a high degree of difficulty. Absolutely. But it's also a forum where you can ask questions. And Roy is brilliant, man. He hosted our after party. But that bit is kind of incredible. For some reason, in that setting, they can ask questions and kind of make

criticisms plain. reason in that setting they can ask questions and kind of make you know kind of make criticisms playing you know um and he was and he was asking yo if you know what you know it's based off it's based off of this you know it's not even it's not even an american tune not even an american song it's based off a british drinking so i didn't know that i didn't know that either that's why i said it's so knowledgeable you learned so much about the film yeah and what made what made you be a part of this film you know know, we're talking about- Oh, finish the stand up point for us. Well, yeah, I think, I think stand up, like when you laugh, when you have a natural reaction,

sometimes it's nervous, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes it's like, man, I can't believe this person said this. You know, it was a lot of that last night. But at the same time, like, oftentimes it's like a recognition of something, you know what I mean? And someone's storytelling.

And that bit, it just, it just leaves, you know, if you watch the film, it leaves of something, you know what I mean, in someone's storytelling. And that bit, it just leads, you know, if you watch the film, it leads right into the story. How I got involved, Pete and I met in Oakland over 10 years ago. I was making a film called Fruitville. It was Fruitville then, now it's Fruitville Station. Everything about you is Oakland, bro. It all comes back to Oakland.

Doesn't it? It doesn't. I mean, Pete got three movies about that actually four now about the about the bay he got a steph curry doc coming out next next month second greatest player of all time but we'll talk about that later second now we could talk we could talk all of that charlotte man i mean you know that's that's that's yeah that's a nice ranking for him but But, but, but, um, we met, we met then he was making a doc called the waiting room, um, which is about Highland hospital, which is, which is a, you know, a massive hospital in East Oakland that has the trauma ward, you know? Um, and it was actually the hospital where,

where Oscar Grant rest in peace, where he, where he was born in a hospital where he, where he, where he passed away when he was murdered. And we were trying to get access to that place, and some folks in the San Francisco Film Society hooked me and Pete up. And we've been tight since. And some years back, my wife, Zanze Evans, and my partner, I call him Hanyan,

we started a company called Proximity Media. And a few years after we started, we recruited Pete to come over and run nonfiction for us. So he's been making films for our company for some time now. And this is the first one that we've done in collaboration with Onyx. I always like to ask people from the beginning, both for you guys, Pete and Ryan,

how did you get into film? For somebody out there right now listening, how was the start? What was the love? What was the first light bulb that said, like how did you get into film? For somebody out there right now listening, how was the start? What was the love? What was the first light bulb that said, this is what I wanted to do, and how was that journey of getting into the game? I was like, I come from a big family.

My mom's one of 10, dad's one of eight, and we used to have big family reunions, lots of cousins running around. My Uncle Ray had a video camera, and he'd bring to the family reunions every summer, and I would take the camera and run around and interview all my family members. I had, kinda like you guys,

I didn't have the King's chairs, but I had the Pete and Nick show, this little show. And a clip from that is actually an autobiographical, my first film was an autobiographical documentary about the impact that my addiction, I went to Howard University and fell into addiction. Sorry. And, and my, my, my film. I went to Howard. H-U the Mecca. Not to H-U. He went to Howard. I was talking about the Howard part. That's what I wanted to say. I said the Howard part.

I went to Hampton. So, you know, but go ahead. I was like, yo, he got empathy. Forget your addiction. You went to Howard. No, I was with you on that. I was ready to go down the road with you on that. But, you know, it was really, you know, my story, it's a story of a black family, middle class, upper middle class black family that dealt with things that were difficult to talk about. And I just from a very early age was inspired by my own family story and felt that there was something there that I wasn't seeing, heard, and told. And that really began my journey as a storyteller. Later, when I went to film school and had a choice to make my first film, it was to look within. I know you probably should go watch

the autobiographical doc you did, but what was the addiction? You name it. It depends on the day., depends on my mood. So you just got turned out in college, or were you trying to stay up to study? I was working at, this is the late 80s during the war on drugs, this is when, you know,

Rafe Ledman, Marion Barry, I was working at a club, the Fifth Column, and just got sucked in the world. I was, you know, dealing with a lot of identity issues, and I think, you know, it's so interesting that I met Ryan eventually and his process of storytelling, looking at the black story, the black family, the black American story and reframing that in a powerful way is a bit of a kismet.

That's so interesting because there's always a profile of what an addict looks like, you know, and somebody who was attending an HBCU probably wouldn't fit that profile, so to speak. Well, you know, one of the things I learned being at Howard was that being black means so many different things. It sort of like exploded my mind, you know, on that. And we have these conceptions that black in the media is, you know, more flattened out into a two-dimensional narrative. And so that was also one of the things I wanted to bring into my storytelling.

And you, Ryan, for people that don't know? How did I get into filmmaking? How you got into filmmaking? What was the first light bulb? What made you say, this is what I want to do as a profession? That's a great question. For me, I grew up in a, I'm going to say, I grew up in the Bay Area playing football and going to school. I like school.

I like football maybe a little bit more. Got a scholarship to go to a school called St. Mary's College. And this was in 2003. Very good basketball school. But they had football there as well, playing in D1AA. And after my freshman season, they dropped their football program. And that same semester, it was like we were doing spring ball, and they dropped that bomb on us.

And I was in an English class, like a creative writing class, taught by a woman named Rosemary Graham. And she gave the first assignment for us to write about our most intense emotional experience. And I wrote about something that happened, like a health issue that happened with my pop. Didn't think much about it. You know, turned it in.

And she called me into her office hours and had like a one-on-one with me and was like, hey, you should think about writing screenplays. You know? And that was really like the first time an adult recommended something like that. And I thought it was a crazy recommendation. And you've never been into it? You were just like, let me. I mean, looking back, it was always there.

Like my family watched a lot of movies. That was how we would pass time. It was how we would communicate with each other. You know, and I've done a lot of self analysis since then. Like a lot, you know, like a little bit of like what Pete's talking about. Looking back, my parents came up, both of them from Oakland. And they was there when

you know that time peace talking about how my parents was in in in the town and it wasn't much different they was trying to they was trying to stay alive man you know young young married uh and they would what they would do for entertainment is like you know go to blockbuster and rent something and stay in the house he had three sons they would keep us in the house so that's what we would do is would do that was our culture you know and I always loved always loved movies you know

I would do like theater arts or whatever if it was an elective I'd take theater arts you know what I'm saying so it was always there but her reading something that I wrote

and making that making that suggestion was huge man and then my wife who was my girl at the time you know I told her about it I was trying to write screenplays and Microsoft Word which is difficult if y'all got every tried to write a screenplay before because of the margins

and formatting goofy yeah in my mom my wife she was a track scholarship at Fresno State we both had no money um she squeezed our coins together and got me the software that you use to professionally write a screenplay, Final Drive, so once she did that, I was in there. Well, you remember the first screenplay you wrote? I do, bro, I remember all of them. I mean, it was terrible.

But it was called Story of a Dollar, it was about a $20 bill that was getting passed around the bay. You know, so we told a bunch of little stories based on that. People would write on the money. It sounds crazy now, right, because everything is digital. You know what I'm saying? Chris Rock did a sketch like that once. Oh, yeah.

His Chris Rock show on HBO. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this was like, you know, yeah, this was like, it's a common, you know, it's a common idea, you know what I mean? Like an inanimate object that's getting moved around, you can tell stories to that. But when I was, you know, I was 17, man,

so I was like, yo, this is the most creative shit ever, you know what I mean? I didn't know. When did y'all both know, when did y'all both know it was gonna be a profession, right, because I'm sure at one time you thought you were gonna play football in the league, you know what I mean? I'm sure one time you thought you were gonna do something else. When did y'all know, it was going to be a profession, right? Because I'm sure at one time you thought you were going to play football in the league. You know what I mean?

I'm sure at one time you thought you were going to do something else. When did y'all know, like, this is a profession? Well, I'll tell you the time when I knew this one had a profession was before I saw Fruitvale Station. I saw a film he did called Locks, which to this day is one of the most beautiful expressions of character and humanity that I've seen. In short, it was like a silent film, almost. And I knew that this was a special storyteller. And that was sort of what drew me to Ryan. And what was your question?

I would say, when did you know it was going to be a profession? You know, everybody wants to be a football player, basketball player. Everybody has that dream. But when you say, no, this is my calling. Well, I was at Howard. I was on the 11-year plan at Howard. It was interrupted by my stay with the federal government. When I got out, I kinda bounced around in D.C. for a couple years, met my wife Vonna in 94,

sort of got things on track and started, I had to pick a minor and I was a creative writing major, I was gonna be a writer, that's what I thought I was gonna do, I was writing short stories and never got to writing a script. But I had to pick a minor, and I picked journalism. And I'd met this kid in an AA meeting, and he worked at this little tiny news service called the Hispanic Link, which at the time there was very little news

telling the story of the Hispanic community in America. So this tiny hole-in-the-wall news was syndicated nationwide and it was run by this, this white guy who'd married this woman from Oaxaca, Mexico. And it was a love story. And so I was just struck by it. And so I made a little short documentary and it was my thesis project, my senior project at Howard. And, um, I fell in love with it documentary. And I looked at where, where the best, you know, documentary programs and UC Berkeley, the journalism you know documentary programs and uc berkeley the journalism school of berkeley has one of the one of the top programs and so i went there when i made that decision to apply to graduate school i kind of knew like this is what i'm committing to

do this is what i'm going for right and you ryan when did you know that this was going to be your profession because i know at one time you said i'm going to play in the league i know you thought you're going to play for the raiders big time yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a great question. I've been asked this before. My wife always laughs. But it was after I made my fourth movie. It was when I was like, okay, I'm going to be doing this for a while. What was the fourth one?

What kind of fabric? That's when you said this is a profession? Things could have been before that one. No, I'm telling you, bro. Fruitvale, Creed, Black Panther, them kind of things? Yeah, yeah. Because I don't know,

some combination of imposter syndrome. That's what I was going to say. That sounds like an imposter. And internalizing, this internalized feeling of it's like, it's all going to be taken away from me. You know what I'm saying? Like that, it just went away. So you know what i'm saying like like that that

it just went away so you didn't think that's good enough it was it was a combination of a lot of things for one i didn't think i was good enough like like i was thinking i was fooling people um i got lucky with each movie you know you know what i'm saying um but i think like we were kind of forever going through so much you know number one losing chat you know everyone losing chat rest in peace man and and he had he had so much confidence in me you know what i'm saying um and and and he would speak you know he would speak confidence in me when i was having moments of doubt um and i and and a lot of times i would think he was just trying to get me through the day, you know what I'm saying? Because you do that with your teammates, right?

Hey, you got this. Even though you might not believe they really got it, but you're telling them, you know what I'm saying? But then in retrospect, after he passed and knowing what I knew about him, that he would never BS somebody, you know what I'm saying? And finishing that film,

that was like the first time I was like, okay, I think I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life. How nerve-wracking was that film with all those celebrities and all those stars and people that's been in so many movies? The first one? Yeah. Crazy nerve-wracking, bro.

But the thing is, all my movies was nerve-wracking. My nerves was wracked on the short he was talking about. So, I mean, you know that feeling. You don't ever get to a point where you're like, I've done enough where I'm comfortable and I'm getting there. Yeah, like I think I'm getting there. You don't ever want to be. You get to a point where you're comfortable?

Yeah, where I feel like I'm going to be doing this for some time. I would say confident. You're confident in you. Getting there. Right, right, right. Getting there. Also, I think it's a belief that your voice, what you have to say, is going to be received. It's going to be received by the culture, by the critics, by the audiences.

And our culture sort of shifts. And those voices, the voices that do matter, that do bubble up to the surface, it's not always because of the relevance or the power of those voices. It's sort of the ecosystem of our culture and society allows certain voices to come forward. Is it the pressure of knowing how many young minorities look up to you guys like, I want to be the next? You know what I mean? Is that part of it as well?

Yeah, man. It's so much. It's all of it, bro. Like, y'all feel it. Y'all black. You know what I'm saying? You know, when you first got this job, it's like, I got to do my thing for my family, but I also got to do my thing for the next person who look like me who want to do this that came later at first it

Was it's about survival. Yeah, yeah, I'm five four times the radius was about survival Yeah, then once you start to realize the magnitude of the platform, it's like you got to do it for the people Yeah, and what's great is like look, right? It's Monday, right? I ain't check the papers, but I think Stephen cables movie was number one Transformers, yeah, it was number one. Transformers. It was number one. Yeah, so like, Pete got this movie coming. We got a Steph doc that's gonna come. The more of us that's succeeding, it actually takes some of the pressure off.

You know what I'm saying? That has also helped. You know what I mean? It's not like, oh, it's only one. We got one shot, we got one representative. It's like, I'm always a bunch of us. You know what I'm saying? And that's changing the fabric of

what a blockbuster director looks like. You know what I'm saying? Or what, you know, or how much support a non-fiction film gets from, you know, from a studio or from the audience, you know what I'm saying? Like, like. Which is typically very little.

Yeah. So I'm extremely grateful for the platform that Prox, Proximity has provided, and that is a powerful idea to sort of validate not just different perspectives of voice, but different genres and styles of storytelling. One more thing about the imposter syndrome, when you're Ryan Coogler,

we know the greatness of Ryan Coogler, but the media will say things like, oh, he's the next George Lucas. Like you're always the next somebody. It's never just you. Is that? Hold on, bro, is that a Crown Royal bag? Of course.

Okay. My bag, bro. Chalamet is 60, he keeps all his change in there. Bro. I got my change. That's change. You damn right. You need a little something? Okay. My bad, bro. Charlamagne is 60. He keeps all his changes. That's changing. You damn right. You need a little something?

Man, I might. I got a vending machine here. Hey, my bad, bro. I just went back 100 years, bro. Bro, bad memories? Grandma? Majors, bro. Uncles, bro. Uncles.

Oh, my God. My bad. My bad, Charlamagne, bro. Does that contribute to the imposter syndrome? Them always saying you're the next someone? It don't help. Right. That never helps.

You know, but what I'm thankful for, man, is like I'm thankful for the OGs like I saw I saw Spielberg a few days ago you know saw spent a day with Spike you know I sat down with Coppola

I sat down with with Chris Nolan you know I was very rest in peace John Singleton was very close with him you know and having a relationship

with the OGs Is helpful if they say You the next whatever You know what I'm saying Like I sat with George Lucas You know what I'm saying And I know these guys

As guys And they can kind of advise And say man Throw all that away You know what I'm saying Like this is gonna come That's gonna come It's been

You know it's been Really helpful But it never Helps to Hear somebody that's gonna come, it's been really helpful. But it never helps to hear somebody compare you to a generational great, you know what I'm saying? That's why I always feel for Bron. You know what I mean? Yeah, we'll never appreciate Bron. I say that all the time, you'll never appreciate Bron

if you keep comparing him to this ghost that is Michael Jordan. Let me tell you something, bro. Me and Zinzi went to game three when the damn Lakers knocked us out, bro, in the second round. And we worked with Steph and Bron. We worked on Space Jam. We worked on the beautiful movie Pete. Pete's got coming out. And this dude, man, he's 38. And he And this dude, man,

he's 38. And he would have plays, bro. Because he knew me and Zinji was there. He would have plays where he would get the ball, bro. He would point to his, score, and then point to his after he scored. Like, yo, I'm about to score right now. You know what I'm saying?

And it would just do it. And I would, like, I've never seen anything, I've never seen anything like this guy, man. And everything he does is always compared to some, you know, to some. To Jordan, yeah. Or, you know, or it's Kareem, you know, he was doing it. It's like, it's nuts. He was doing the jump hook that day.

We kind of appreciate it for the comparison sake, you know. But I will say, like, this whole time I've had Pete, bro, you know what I'm saying, as a friend who, you know, people don't know him as much as they might know George Lucas or Spielberg, but incredible working filmmaker and a family man, you know what I'm saying, who got wisdom for me whenever I needed it in terms of navigation. So I'll be forever thankful for him

and to help him make this beautiful movie, man that only he could make you know yeah i can talk to him more about it but only he can make a movie where you know it's like yo we're gonna we're gonna examine this national institution you know what i'm saying it's got all these that's triggering for everybody you know and come out with it and come out with a song on the other side you come out watching the movie feeling good. But yeah, I'm thankful for him too. Thank you, bro. You know, Pete, it made me wonder watching Anthem, why did black people ever accept the anthem to begin with?

Why did they ever accept the national anthem to begin with? I don't know. I've seen it from a lot of different perspectives. I guess I like to say I was born into the story of race. I was born in 68. My birth mother's white. My birth father was black. Her family threatened to disown her if she married him.

She put me up for adoption. I was adopted by a black family. My dad's a descendant of slaves from the South Gullah. My mom's... South Carolina? South Carolina. Hey. That's home.

My mom, her parents came over from West Africa, Cape Verde. I married a refugee from Laos. I've got kids who are mixed race. Been in federal prison on a drug charge. Went to all white private schools, went to Howard. So I've seen life from all these different angles and perspectives in all my work. At the same time, I've never been thrown down on the ground by a cop.

I've never been, I've been called nigger a couple times, but that's usually when I'm with my other family. People don't kind of know how to pin me, you know, and I generally can slide through. Like miscellaneous. Kind of miscellaneous in a sense. Kind of miscellaneous, yeah. And that also sort of borrowed into my own psyche about my identity, who am I? And I think that question of who am I is also the question I think as a country

we're trying to sort of grapple with, who are we? We're all different, but we're all the same. And I think all of my work, I like to step into spaces that are a little bit messy and examine those questions, whether it's what are our values as a country in delivering health care to Americans and setting that in a public hospital waiting room. What does it mean if a police department says

they're trying to reform? What does that mean? Is that real? How important is education to equity in our culture? says they're trying to reform, what does that mean? Is that real? How important is education to equity in our culture? And so the anthem was sort of a natural, examining that question of should you love it or hate it? Should we tear it down, should we burn it, should we recreate it?

Some people love it, some people hate it. I love Jimi Hendrix's version. To me, it was always beyond. It went into some spiritual place. It was still the anthem. It's still the Star Spangled Banner at the end of the day. Marvin Gaye's version, Jose Feliciano. These are all beautiful renditions of a song that is being unpacked, but it's still the anthem.

And I felt that that was a great starting point to sort of, you know, think about, well, what would it mean to create a new anthem? And if we were to create a new anthem today and allow the diversity of voice in this country to create that song, what would that be? And on the surface surface it's an impossible it's an impossible task because you can't really we were like do we need to like you know get into sort of like blues hip-hop gospel jazz like rock house music go-go i mean there's so many different styles of music that reflect the american story so um you know there could be another two or three movies you know on the on this on this side, using this construct. One thing I do love is, you know, Anthem, besides Anthem, I love the evolution story, right? Because a lot of times in this day and age, people don't allow you to evolve, right?

They look at your past and they try to keep you in the past of who you were. And the fact that you talk about everything that you've been through and how you've changed and the things that you're doing i don't i don't think a lot of times people allow people to have that evolution and to change so i commend that and have you had a hard time because of your past because you know charlamagne and myself we've all had a past and we talk about our past and the reason we talk about it's because you know nobody's ever perfect right there's no life that's perfect people go through shit so the fact that you talk about the things that you've been to and you're still able to leave your mark on the world on some positives is the amazing story.

Well, I think, I don't know why. I remember distinctly when I got out of prison, I got a job working at this elementary school in D.C., which I went back to Howard, and they have an internship program where you fill out where do you want to work, and I kind of went into this space of denial of what had happened to me,

and I didn't check the box. I basically lied, and I got placed at this elementary school, which happened to be a school where presidents, like where Obama sends his kids, where some of those powerful people in D.C. send their kids. And I remember I took the job. I was working at this job. And one day the lawyer who represented me in my case, which was prosecuted by Merrick Garland, who's now the attorney general of the United States, walked in on a tour with his son, and my job that day was to check all the parents in and give them name tags, and here comes my lawyer,

and he sees me, and we looked at each other, and he's like, oh, how are you doing? And he's probably thinking to himself, what the hell is this guy doing? This guy's fixing drug traffic, or working at the school, presumably I'm gonna send my kid. And I eventually left that job, and I had to tell all the people that I had lied.

And from that point forward, I decided that I was going to tell my story. I was going to step into the difficult space of being real about my story, talking about my dad's alcoholism, asking my dad about his alcoholism on camera. We had never talked. Black families don't talk about my story, talking about my dad's alcoholism, asking my dad about his alcoholism on camera. We had never talked, black families don't talk about their trauma, their mental health, things like alcoholism. And it just felt like an empowering thing. And it also felt like something

that our country needed to do more is examine and step into these more real, authentic spaces. We are all those things. I want to uh ask about anthem what what do you think it would take to actually create a new national anthem well one of the one of the insights that seem very common as we ask that same question to a lot of people in in the making of the film and also now that the film is coming out is that maybe there can't be one anthem. There has to be many anthems. The idea of anthem is so, there's the anthem, the national anthem, but then there's personal anthems,

the song you put on at the gym or the song that you recall when you got married or the song that just gets you hyped, something that inspires you. We all have different ways of allowing these songs and these because songs are ultimately stories they're narratives the narratives that we tell ourselves and the narratives that we use to reflect you know our families our communities um and that can't be boiled down into one song but that the intention of allowing you know multiple perspectives to inform a national anthem a national, wasn't how the original song was created,

that Francis Scott Key was created, using the music of this British pub song. And so that intention could lead to other insights and meaning that we could carry into our future as a country. The doc also had me thinking, if there was a new national anthem, what genre of music would it be delivered through?

Because I love the way y'all went through country, which I never even referred to as white. When you referred to it as white soul, I was like, oh, it is white soul. You know what I mean? Isn't that interesting? Blues, jazz, like what genre of music would it be best delivered through

to where America would embrace it? I was having this conversation with the dude outside the cellar last night. What's his name? David or Brian? And I asked him, and immediately he was like, hip hop. Hip hop. And I'm 68.

I was born in 68, so I am the age of hip hop. And we talked about it, you know, because we brought on Dahi early in the process, and Dahi's produced some of, you know, hip hop. Kendrick Lamar. Greatest artist. So many different people. So good, bro. You know. early in the process, and Dahi's produced some of hip-hop's greatest artists. So many different people. So good, bro.

It was weird to hear him say that he's only been to New York and L.A. too. I was like, wow, that he hasn't been in the middle of America. I thought that was weird. A lot of us haven't. A lot of us don't enter these spaces. We grow up in our communities. We sometimes step out sometimes. But there are definitely places in the south,

or Nashville, it's like you saw what happened when they pulled up and what are y'all doing? And they didn't fully articulate what they were doing. They said what are y'all doing? You know, oh we're making a documentary exploring American music. They didn't say we're making a documentary rewriting the national anthem.

So I do think, but I think. You say hip hop, it should be. Hip hop, that is gospel, house music, all these things are inflections, but the blues thing, we knew that there were certain foundational places that we wanted to explore blues is one of those foundational places native american music which is very rarely included in the conversation of the american music story we knew that we wanted to to step into those spaces and allow them to

to inform the song the movie made me i mean what the doc made me think that hip hop's not as rooted in soul and spirit as it should be. It feels like a lot of the hip hop is rooted in, that we listen to now is rooted in capitalism

more so than the stuff that y'all had in the doc that when you listen to the blues and the country like it was, the Native American stuff,

it was rooted in soul and spirit. Why do you think that is, Ryan? That's an heavy question bro um i mean i'm i'm older today than i've ever been um and and yeah like like i like my i think i think it's I think music is complicated.

I think black music is, I got my own theories about it. I love that this doc is kind of about American music. You know what I mean? It's anthem on the surface, but it's really about American music and about watching a song being written, which I think is fascinating because you got stand-up comedy and you got music. I think them is like two straight alchemy, you know what I'm saying? Like when you see people do it. And I think that like, I think that black music has always been a call back home, like a report. Hey, we still here.

Hey, we okay? Like, this here's what's happening. You know what I'm saying? Is anybody out there that hears? I always feel this electricity runs through my body whenever I come to New York. I think a part of it is just that it's 10 million people running around trying to make a way. Another part of it is this force that's been ever present in my life that's given me a sense of power. Hip-hop, it was founded here.

You know what I'm saying? And you can feel it. You know what I mean? I don't know if it's that I know it was here or I can feel it here, but it's fantastic. You know what I'm saying? I think that thing has constantly changed and and i think the reason why you're hearing this this this trend towards like hyper-capitalistic or you know a lot of it is like war music you know what i'm saying like but i think it's i think

it's like about the right to self-determine that people are looking for. And whatever route they can find it, you know what I'm saying? And sometimes maybe it's quote-unquote misguided. Sometimes it's truthful, you know what I mean? Like somebody that's living in poverty, surrounded by it, they might think that having some money is a way they can self-determine, make themselves safe, get their family out of where they are, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes they think picking up a weapon is a way can self-determine, make themselves safe, get their family out of where they are. You know what I'm saying?

Sometimes they think picking up a weapon is a way to self-determine. If they feeling vulnerable or weak, you know what I'm saying? I got to show them that I'm strong and I'm not. You know what I mean? I think it's usually some form of truth in it. You know what I'm saying?

Like whether at 37, you know what I'm saying? like um whether whether you know at 30 whether at 37 you know what i'm saying i'm loving it you know what i mean um that that's my best explanation for it but i think that's what i think that's what everybody wants that's what's so so interesting about it you know what i'm saying like i come from the home of the panthers it's all about the right to self-determine you know what i'm saying saying? To claim my humanity and self-determine my safety and where I can go, where my body can be, where my children can feel safe. You know what I'm saying?

And I hear that in the blues, I hear that in jazz, I hear that in, you know what I'm saying? I hear it in all of you. Hope that answers that question. Yeah, I'm saying, I guess when you was talking, it made me feel like, damn, sometimes I guess capitalism can ruin art, right? So I wonder what's more fulfilling for you, doing something like Fruitvale Station or Black Panther? What's more fulfilling? Yeah, not even just those two movies in particular, but just doing a movie in more of an independent way than a big blockbuster.

Well, yeah, that's a great question bro um i i think at the time i'm i've been blessed to do the most fulfilling thing you know what i'm saying like at the time you know if you talked about that like how we don't get the ability to change right i think as i think as as black people we can be the hardest on ourselves when it comes to that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm from, I was born in Oakland. My whole family's from there. We know, Ryan. I think I was like, but check it out, bro.

I'm getting some here, bro. I'm getting some here, bro. But, you know, I was like eight or nine, we moved to Richmond. You know what I'm saying? And, like, still to this day, I have people ask me, hey, bro, you from Oakland or Richmond? You know what I'm saying? And, like, the truth is, I'm Richmond you know you know what I'm saying and like and like the truth is come from both you know you know what I'm saying but but that's not allowed at home you know you know I mean like you gotta pick bro you

know what I'm saying like it's like is it this or is it that and you gotta stick with it for your whole life you know what I'm saying like like when I'm when I'm blessed to literally be 100 hey bro you from Oakland you know what I'm saying it It's like, well, damn. You ever go back to Oakland and say, you know, like, damn, I made it out of here? I'm still there. He's there. Yeah, you know, I'm still there. Ryan, Oakland to the core.

I know. But it's beautiful, though. I'm from South Carolina, so I know exactly how you feel. Some days where I'm like, damn, I'm still alive, you know what I'm saying? Because I was out in Oakland, and I'm driving. I was staying at the hotel, and I wanted to get something to eat. It's like, go to the next corner.

And the next corner was Oakland, Oakland. Like, fresh fried spied with the gates in it. I'm like, where the fuck am I? And like, you still see like, it looks like riots happened yesterday. Like, you see stuff boarded up and stuff broken down. And I'm like, God damn. Don't let them play you like Queens is so sexy, Ryan.

Are you in Queens? I'm from Queens. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, it's the same. So it's like, when you see that. Wherever we at, you'll see that. You know, you can be on the right or the wrong spot, you know. Look, man, the country's been out of the world with us since we've been here. You know what I'm saying?

Like, it's the truth. Like, you see it reflected, like, whether it's financial, you know, like whether it's all, you know, all right, Jim Crow, whether it was, you know, full blown or, you know, our bodies being illegal, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, you know, so you see it, you see the reflections of it, you know what I mean? And in this spot in Cleveland and everywhere here, Detroit, Oakland, you know what I'm saying?

You know, you go DC. I just want to I'm going to try see, formulate how I'm gonna say this, because there's a lot in this. Going back to your question about what's, you know, the independent versus the blockbuster and capitalism. Oh shit, yeah, I forgot about that question. But I saw Black Panther in a theater in Utah

where my daughter was in treatment for mental health and addiction. She was 16 at the time. And we were visiting her, and we went to see Black Panther in a theater packed full of white Mormons watching Black Panther. And to me, that was a profound reality and impact that Ryan's work, this very commercial,

big blockbuster Marvel movie, I don't think people fully understand of understand the the impact that that that had on the culture and sort of changing the narrative and you know changing those narratives is so important it's important internally I you know talking about trauma talking about our communities black communities going back generations to slavery, like my dad's family. He had unresolved trauma. He was drinking. I only found out after he died that he was told when he was a young man to step into the gutter

when white people approached him on the sidewalk. My daughter, I dealt with addiction. My daughter dealt with addiction, and we lost her at the age of 16. So the consequences of unrecognized and trauma that's not dealt with in narrative is profound. And I think Ryan's work is doing it both in this very intimate way with an independent approach

like Fruitvale Station and on the biggest stage with these blockbusters is powerful and I think it's also going to influence other creatives in those spaces to use their voices and to use these stages because now we're getting more opportunities. We're getting more opportunities. That's why I like Black Panther 2 so much because

I put Ryan in the same vein as a Kendrick or even a Cole because even with the massive success you won't compromise your art I appreciate that bro I just realized I didn't ask you a question man like like um they all are are fulfilling at the time because I'm I'm different each time you know what I'm saying like you know Matt Fruebel when I was I was 25 37 now you know I don't know if I would I don't know if I can make that movie now you know what I'm saying I don't know if I would I don't know if I can make that movie now

you know what I'm saying I don't got the optimism that I had then or the energy you know we met in like 20 20 days we didn't sleep

you know so I gotta sleep now you know like our family now you know like it would've been impossible but that was the most

fulfilling thing that I could've done at that time I've been blessed to like do fulfilling work you know what I'm saying with this company bro it's blessed to like do fulfilling work. You know what I'm saying? With this company,

bro, it's fantastic. I get to support filmmakers vision. You know what I'm saying? Like Pete said, I don't make them. We're going to make a new national anthem. I'm like,

holy shit, let's do it. What do you need? You know what I'm saying? How can I help? You know, and it's, it's,

it's been an incredible blessing, man. I know these brothers got to go too. Yeah, I know they're telling us you got to wrap up. So I guess with this question be the last question. How do you keep

the national anthem hopeful and empowering with so much of America's history being negative for the majority of groups that have been here?

Because, you know, we keep talking about we are having these discussions about what America is. I think we know what America is. We trying to put

the mirror up to them and let them see what America is. Yeah, right. I mean, it's different things and different people, right? Like, and that's what's so beautiful about the song they made was that, you know, you got four women from different backgrounds and different experiences with the country, you know, putting down verses that feel true to them.

It's not compromising. And then when you hear it sang, you know, it's like, you know, you identify with each piece. Because maybe it's like I don't know somebody who's indigenous. Or I'm not indigenous myself to this land, but I know people who are, you know. And I know people who are having issues with borders moving across them and back and forth or getting moved. You know, and when you hear the words,

saying, you feel it, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't, you know, when you hear Charity, like, in her 20s from Nashville, sing about her family in the military, I think she says, like, all gave some, but some gave all. Man, you feel it, you know what I'm saying? And white people don't own the military, you know what I'm saying? I got got my grandfather falling in in every word after was fought while he was alive you know you know what i mean and um so when you take a step back and look at the song that they made in the

process of how they made it man you know the young choir sang it man and it works you know what i'm saying like you like you know so i think it's i think it's an incredible utility that they that they gave and that's all the song is the utility man you might use it to get through some personal loss you might use it to do your homework you might use it to to to lift at the gym you know you know what i'm saying like like it's a it's a piece of art that's a utility and it's up to the people to use it you know what i'm saying yeah i mean i think it's just real simply empowering people to people to use it, you know what I'm saying? Life of our people. Yeah, I mean I think it's just really simply empowering people to tell their story. And anthems inspiring people

to express their own idea of an anthem. I remember when we made The Waiting Room, this film about Highland Hospital, before we made the film, we did this little digital storytelling project where we interviewed hundreds of people stuck in the waiting room. We asked everybody the same thing, what are you waiting for? And the results of that simple question were profound. And I got into the, you know, you're dealing with some people who look dangerous, somebody who just pissed on themselves, somebody who's ranting, dealing with mental illness. And I got into this

space where I was approaching everybody, even if if i was uncomfortable and some of the people that i was most uncomfortable with the results in their story allowing that empowering them in that moment to tell their story even if i didn't maybe agree with their politics or their position because some people were talking about health care some people were conservative in those spaces but they're also suffering somehow. And that sort of collective, that unifying suffering and allowing people the framework to tell their story in that space was powerful.

And I think hopefully this film can allow people to recognize that sometimes we do have to put these stories that are difficult next to each other and allow the alchemy to just happen because we can't we just can't ignore it we're in a difficult time in our country right now it's it's it's like we're we're at a crossroads right now and it could go this way it could go that way but the optimism um both for my own family and the generational trauma that we face that there's a path, that you don't have to stay in that. Yeah, well, we appreciate you brothers for joining us.

And, you know, anytime you got a movie or something that you want to promote, documentary, y'all invited up here, come on up and use the platform. All right, what's next? I mean, the writers crack happening now. Man, yeah, it's a big shout out to the writers. WGI is striking right now. You know, trying to get, you know, equity.

Underrated, that's next for us, like on the non-fiction side. On the non-fiction side, yeah. So non-fiction, I can. You can do. Yeah, it's not started with WGA originated work, you know what I'm saying? It's outside of that, so I can help promote.

But yeah, we got underrated. Beautiful, beautiful movie about Steph Curry. Very underrated. He's the number two greatest player of all time. We need to start acting like it. It's coming full circle. Let me ask you guys, we're checking. Who's top three?

NBA, let's talk about it right now. Just a quick question before you go. Top five? In the league right now? No, all time. No, all time. I can give you mine quick. LeBron's in there.

I got Michael Jordan, Steph Curry, Kobe Bryant, LeBron, and Magic Johnson. That's my top five. I'm not mad at that. Yeah. I mean, that's – I'm not doing this, man. Because I literally have made a movie. I made a movie with LeBron.

I made a movie with Steph. You know what I'm saying? I'm not doing this. Steph beat LeBron three times in NBA finals. No, no, no. I'm a Warriors fan lifelong. You know what I'm saying? Like Steph – He's three times in NBA finals. No, no, no. I'm a Warriors fan lifelong. You know what I'm saying? Like Steph.

He's beating you in, Ron. It's got to matter. No, no, no. Steph bigger than basketball for us. He revolutionized the sport. Yeah, like we ride or die with Steph. You know what I'm saying? And Ron's my guy.

Steph changed all the basketball, women and men. They all play like Steph. He revolutionized the game. I've never seen nobody do that since Michael Jordan. You're not wrong. I'm going to tell you something that's going to sound crazy. To this day, most skilled basketball player I've ever seen is Hakeem Olajuwon. Like, most skilled.

I remember watching him as a kid and being like, yo, this dude is crazy. The scariest cat I've ever seen to play against when I was a kid was Tim Duncan. It seemed like he was always winning. You know what I'm saying? These dudes don't get mentioned at all when you start talking about it. But when I really think about it, I'm like,

I don't know how somebody could be better than Hakeem Olajuwon, you know what I'm saying? Now you got the Jokings and those guys, and I love Hakeem, but they- But back then, there wasn't too many big men. So when you were big men. There was. All big men.

He swept Shaq. There were more big men, weren't there? They were all big. You didn't have it. He had to go past David Robinson, Shaq. David Robinson. Patrick Ewing. Kimbae Mutombo.

What he used to do to those guys, bro? Like, I used to just. And he had no flaws in his game. But now you think about somebody smaller Had to get by the big man Like your Allen Iverson Like your Allen Ball Think about what A.I. did

You know what I mean When he beat When he beat When he beat That Kobe Shaq team Game one And no teammates really I mean I don't mean

No disrespect These is real hoopers That was on his team But like You know I mean yeah bro So it's tough man You're saying all that To say you do think Steph is better

than Bron, but. I'm gonna bait you, Ryan. Bro, I'm not. You just don't want to. I'm a Warriors fan, bro. That's what I'm gonna say, bro. And Steph, and Steph bigger than a hoop for us, man. You know what I'm saying?

But I'm also a black man and LeBron is bigger than, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know. Love Bron. I'm not, I'm not gonna get into that. I'm just talking about on the court. I love both these guys. I root for the Warriors. I root for guys i root for the way i root for the way when they play i love both those dudes i hate that we got up i hate that i hate that we got to pick against each other i hate it i hate it

so much and i hate that they knocked us out god damn bro he says it with his chest number two of all time i give it absolutely absolutely you for where mean, I grew up in Boston, so you know Larry Bird. Larry Bird's in my, yeah, I know. Are you a Red Sox fan too? I know, I know. Let's not go there. And you went to Howard? Let's not go there.

Oh, boy. Although 2004, you know, 2004, you know, Yankees. Oh, boy. Red Sox. All right, well, there you have it. Peter Nix, the Howard University alumni. I really hate you oh man

we appreciate you brothers for joining us man it's the Breakfast Club don't forget Anthem June 28th on Hulu it's the Breakfast Club good morning