The Breakfast Club - Tamron Hall On Black Women In Daytime Talk, Nick Cannon, Wendy Williams, Prince, Her New Book + More

Episode Date: July 5, 2022

Check out one of our favorite throwback interviews with daytime royalty, Tamron Hall! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Have grace with yourself. You're trying your best. And you're going to figure out the rhythm of this thing. Alicia Keys, like you've never heard her before. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, y'all. Niminy here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, The Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip-hop.

Flash, slam, another one gone. Bash, bam, another one gone. The crack of the bat and another one gone. The tip of the cap, there's another one gone. Each episode is about a different, inspiring figure from history. Like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it.

And it began with me. Did you know, did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat. Nine months before Rosa, it was called a moment. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, my undeadly darlings. It's Teresa, your resident ghost host. And do I have a

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Morning, everybody. It's DJ Envy, Angela Yee, Charlamagne Tha God. We are The Breakfast Club. We got a special guest in the building. Daytime talk royalty. Tamron Hall. Welcome. Who?

What? Where'd you get that? Who wrote that? I love my mom for sending that in. Thank you, Mom. She listens to The Breakfast Club. Good morning, Mama. Good morning, Ms. Hall.

How are you? I'm wonderful. How about yourself? I am blessed black and highly favored. I love that. I am feeling the same way. Absolutely. Absolutely. Good to see Ms. Hall. How are you? I'm wonderful. How about yourself? I am blessed black and highly favored. I love that. I am feeling the same way. Absolutely. Absolutely. Good to see you. Thank you. This is my first time in your studio. I know. It's like a

stimulation overload. Yeah, we did Zoom, so I'm one of those people because it's not the cleanliness. Very underwhelming, right? I see stories behind everything. That's right. Oh, yeah. DJ Envy, you and your wife are going to be on my show soon. I can't wait. We're excited. Super duper excited. I love this. There's right. Oh, yeah. DJ Envy, you and your wife are going to be on my show soon. I can't wait. We're excited. Super duper excited. I love this. There's a lot of alcohol.

It's all for props. Yes, yeah. But you don't... Oh, you do have the... Puffy sent me a monogram vodka I never opened it. You guys have one too. Ciroc, yeah. I think you have one too. It has your name on it. I guess you're not supposed to drink those.

I didn't drink it. I just left it there. It's it's a prop like y'all's. That's right. It's cute How was it for you doing the show during a pandemic without an audience? Oh, it's terrible It was terrible I know I had Seth Meyers on the show the other day and he said he enjoyed it because it allowed him to connect more With viewers in the way he didn't expect. I think the first half of it, I said, just thank God we're on air. We're on air because we would be canceled otherwise. So we have a chance to stay on. And then when we went back in and had to go back out this last round with Omar, I'm a journalist. I'm a journalist. I should know better. But that second wave in December, I had to go back into my home and do the show.

And it was miserable. And I realize and you all know this. And Charlamagne, especially with your shows, it is having an audience is it's like the Ten Commandments. It's one of the rules of daytime. You have to have an audience I my first time even attending a daytime talk show I went to Temple University and I came to see Geraldo Rivera in person way back when he had a talk show and it just it's a part of the energy so yeah it was rough I did not like it I wonder when you went to go see Geraldo back in the day does that when the bug hit you did you know absolutely not no did you ever see his show? He had, like, people throwing chairs. No, no, no. I was a college student at Temple, and they, you know,

they would always recruit young audiences to come in. And we were here. Two of my best friends are from Brooklyn, and they went to Temple. And so we just did what college kids do. You come to New York, you hang out in Times Square, you got free tickets to go to a show. And it happened to be Geraldo Rivera's. So when did you get the bug?

Yeah, when did you see yourself doing this? When did you get the bug? When did I get the bug? Well, I was born if you ask me what I would be doing right now other than this, I jokingly say blackjack dealer, but I don't even know how to play cards I don't even know how to play cards

I can't play spades and I'm from the south, I'm embarrassed I don't know how to play spades I don't know how to and I'm from the south. I'm embarrassed. You can't play spades? I don't know how to play dominoes. I'm an embarrassment. What about Uno? Can you at least play Uno? I don't play board games. Uno is not a board game. What is it?

A card game. I don't play cards. I was never one of those people. I don't play Monopoly. I think I do. What did y'all do as fun in college though? A lot of good stuff. We played spades. We played cards.

Not me. You didn't go to class? I did not. Not a lot. What was going on at Temple? What were you doing? House music parties. We used to hang out at Penn a lot. The Penn parties. Mitten Hall parties.

But no, I never played cards. So I don't even know how we got on that one. But yes, I'd say Blackjack Dealer. But no, I never played cards. So I don't even know how we got on that one. But yes, I'd say blackjack dealer. But no, I never had a backup plan. This was always what I wanted to do. I think early on, Johnny Carson's show was something that was in the background. But I quickly realized I wasn't a white guy named Jimmy or James. And so that late night world throughout my entire career was really just a white guy until Arsenio. And I think I think maybe seeing Arsenio, obviously Rolanda, obviously Oprah, Phil Donahue.

But they all had different. Remember Rolanda Watts? People forget how important she was in the marketplace. So it was there wasn't a moment. It was just I felt like I didn't have a choice. It was that I was this is what I was going to do. And I didn't have a choice. It was the, I was, this was what I was going to do. And I didn't know it was going to be a talk show. I knew I was going to be a journalist. I love writing. I love reporting. The talk show thing happened, as you know, because I got fired. And so

I had to figure out how was I going to get back into TV and not feel as owned as I had previously. If you hadn't gotten fired from the Today Show, do you think you'd ever gotten into Daytime Talk? No, because in Daytime Talk, any shows,

you know this just with y'all's show, it's almost like the Rocky Syndrome. People need to root for you, and in talk show world, they need to root for you. They need to feel a connection with you. And so while I did have a great run, I feel at the Today Show, and even before that in Chicago for 10 years, because a great run I feel at the Today Show and even before that in Chicago for ten years because I was recruited to come to the

Today Show after being on air in Chicago but uh no because you have to have an arc every you know it's like a superhero you need like I had the ultimate nemesis in the person that they selected even though I'd never met her and and never crossed paths with her you have that juxtaposition. Clearly, I watch a lot of superhero things. But you have a juxtaposition of a villain. You have your story arc, your origin story. So what was my origin story? I got fired.

And as a black woman being 48 years old and being fired, that hit a nerve with people. What is she going to do? How does she come back? And that gave me opportunities to get in rooms. But if I'm being honest with you, and I always will be, Harvey Weinstein got me in rooms that I was never going to be able to get in. He was the most important person in Hollywood, and he decided he wanted to produce a talk show with me. And so people started taking meetings to hear the pitch because of Harvey

Weinstein and then midstream Harvey was accused of rape and which I learned over a text message someone anonymously text me and said there's an accusation of the r-word and I was like our word what does that mean and then you know what happens there because he helped you with your career but only you know he helped me get meetings I helped me with my career. Helped you get meetings. But on the other end, he's, you know, accused of sexual assault. It's terrifying.

All through the place. So do you just step back and say, look, I'm the mom of my business because I don't know. And he's helped put me in certain roles. I didn't know what to think. It was like an emotional grenade. I'd never been in a room alone with him. So the first part was, thank God, right? Then the second part was, wait a minute,

did the people who came with me in the room, did they know? And is that why they didn't leave me in the room? So there were these many, many questions. And then I'll be honest, came the moment where I was worried about my own survival. And then I felt guilty. It wasn't that I didn't care. I would never say that but there was a moment where you think my career oh my god what happens to me I don't have a job now I've been in the room with him now I'm tied and linked to him and this show will never get off the ground because 99% of the people we were pitching to were white males of his level if you will who were not necessarily open to an idea of a talk show with

me, especially a black woman, black woman, because there hadn't been one. Right. Wendy had the longest running talk show outside of Oprah. There'd been here and there. But if you look at the long list of daytime talk shows, it's largely white men and women who these syndicators believe could appeal to, quote unquote, mainstream. And so even though the best who'd ever done it and the most successful in daytime was a black woman who actually didn't have children. She knocked off all of the stereotypes of what's relatable. So now I'm linked to him.

I'm worried about my own survival. I am my backup plan. I'm thinking this, I'm screwed. And then I had to take a step back and say to myself, what about these women who are making these allegations? And I know just like with Bill Cosby, who spoke at my graduation, who I replaced on the board of trustees at Temple University, even if you don't believe all of them, if you half, half, and then half that half, you have at least one or two. And if there's one, that's one too many.

And that's how I looked at it. So I had to take a step back in the minute that I started thinking about what it must be like for them. It's like the floodgates open my confidence. I said, I'm going back in these rooms. I'm going to rewrite letters to all of these people and say, you let me in the room with him. Now let me in the room by myself and let me pitch myself. And so some of them said yes, some said no. As a spiritual woman that had to like really psychologically, that's God working in a really mysterious way, right? It wasn't so mysterious. I actually felt like it was a clear sign that, you know, Lena

Horne had a quote that was in this book, Stormy Weather. And I have a great obsession with Lena Horne. She said something about white men getting you in rooms that you can't get yourself in. And that's how she felt at the time. And ultimately, that's not true. People will let you in the room. I think you have to just keep beating down the door over and over. We are all in this business that we know you walk in and you're instantly stereotyped. You're instantly assumed to be something.

And so I wrote back notes. And I learned how also, I used to tell people, I definitely channeled 50 Cent a couple of times in. I became no longer afraid to brag on myself. Yeah, you know, you have your own merit and you deserved it. But we shrink it down. I mean, we all do. But women, we especially do in these meetings. And so then you defer to laughing at jokes that aren't funny or your presentation changes a lot. And so I said, I'm 30 years in this business. I'm going to run my resume down. And I really did channel every hip hop artist, male, that you could imagine.

And I specifically zeroed in on men because they get a pass at saying some of the things that women can. I went in very, very hot. I was like, this is who I am. And this is what I did. And if I have to explain myself, and I'm sure that was a turnoff to some people. But other people received it with the intention of I don't stand up for myself who is. And that's how I played it. I always wonder about daytime television, like even though Oprah should be the bar, right? Black woman who defied every stereotype. Weird name, some would say, you know, looks everything. Why didn't they continue to look for more of that instead of just going cookie cutter like they did? I don't understand it.

It is something that I. Goodness. It is. They want it. Daytime, I believe. Not they. Some people want it daytime to be white. It's like Fort.

I call it the Fort Greene Central. And is that you have this neighborhood and for it to be of value, some people believe that it has to be white. And so as a result, even though the audience is largely all women of all different backgrounds, our show is almost 50-50, 50% African-American, Latino, Asian, 50% white. So we have this beautiful diversity just straight down the middle of this show. And though we happen to have one of the highest income earning daytime shows. So these are people, mostly women, who buy and who have huge purchasing power. But there will be people who say 50% African-American. That's not the audience we want.

And you know they still say that. You know that that is still the conversation. And I have it all the time. I've had people call in and say, oh, well, why is this? Why do they have so many urban guests this week? Then you have other people claim I don't, which is obviously not true. But it's a fascinating thing. And I think it still remains part of television.

I don't want to get into this whole thing, but listen, when I grew up watching TV, it was almost more diverse than it is now. You know, Martin in Living Color. I mean, the list, if you go through some of the breakout shows in television, the Fresh Prince and on and on. Cosby, different world.

Oh my God, Damon Wayans show, D.L. Hughley show. I mean, we go to Bill Cosby and television, the Fresh Prince and on and on. Cosby, different world. Oh, my God. Damon Wayans show. D.L. Hughley show. I mean, we go to Bill Cosby and Oprah, but there was a, we just had Guy Torreon for their documentary about Fat Tuesdays. And they talked about this night that was created because TV executives would not go to Compton to hear comedians. So they brought the comedians to Sunset Strip and almost every show you watched during the 90s and 2000s was because of a black comic performing on that night

and being seen by executives who would never have gone to Compton to hear them. So it's fascinating. But I think it's a valuable landscape. That's why every year you see more shows launched because there's money in daytime. But it's not always seen as a value

when that money is coming from us, sadly. Yeah, because we saw Nick Cannon's show only six months and then they canceled it rather quickly. And we were saying up here we feel like he really didn't get a fair shake. He didn't get enough time. What do you define as a fair shake?

I think at least a year. Not enough time to really make a mark and establish. It feels like you need a little bit more time than six months. What do you think? I think that he is brilliant and he is one of the best

interviewers I have ever sat in the room with. I think the show wasn't him. I don't know what the show was, but it wasn't him. And I think they needed a reset, but it was too late. But I also think he got an incredible chance because he came in after a scandal that would have broken most people. I would not have gotten on TV had I said the comments about whatever he said, which he apologized for. And he deserved forgiveness for and he deserved to be on air. I believe that was a big chance.

A lot of people would not have been able to get back on air. And I think that may have taken him off of who he is. Right. Because you come in with such pressure. You've now just said this thing. You've apologized. But, you know, people are swirling and they're looking for you to fail. And so I didn't always see like the Nick that I love on that particular show.

Could you be that on daytime? No, because of what you said, how they want you to cater to middle America. I think he could. He's got Nick Cannon is one of the most successful people in entertainment bar none. I mean, think about all of the shows. So he has a huge fan base. I think coming in under that pressure was never going to change. Right. He was coming in with a cloud of people thinking, oh, he got a shot. Look what he said. Look what he did. And then I feel, you know, his personal life, which he was so honest and open about, was used against him.

I mean, why he has, you know, kids or whatever it was, these storylines that became overshadowing of his talent. And he's so talented. No, that's true, because it's like you can't even really get into discussions about the show because you got to dig through all of the stuff. Exactly. And so all the articles became about his personal life, not about he had Jamie Foxx on. They had this amazing segment. I'm a TV junkie. I watch everybody's show. I listen. So I never watched him as competition. I watch as a fan. But I feel like people didn't talk about the content. So I don't know how that was ever going to change. That's what I mean. So if you give him another year, another six months, months were they gonna be able to change what people were talking about sadly which was his personal life

and he owned it he smiled at me whatever why don't I just I I thought why aren't we talking about his interviews or his content and so that's what I mean by it I don't know if a year would have changed that but if anybody's gonna be back on TV with 60,000 show on TV he's still on TV. He still is. He's got more shows and more millions than I'll ever have. Does Tamron Hall feel like a successful talk show host? Yeah. Okay. I do.

I do. I do. What about you, man? That's an interesting question. Why'd you ask me that? Just because it's like, you know, you came in and everybody was like, oh, we don't know if it's going to last. But then you got another season.

Now you got renewed for two. So now you breathe a sigh of relief and like, oh, we don't know if it's going to last, but then you got another season. Now you got renewed for two. So now you breathe a sigh of relief and like, oh, okay. No. What? But if everything were to end now, you'd feel successful? If everything were to end now, I guess how do you define success? What is success? It's subjective.

Right. So I think for me, success is, yeah, I did something to your point that people didn't think could be done. And now we're about to go in our fourth and fifth season. I don't know. Listen, I was a success the day that I was born. My mother beat the odds. She was a 19-year-old single mom with no husband.

My grandfather brought me home with a second grade education. He could not read. So I was a success when I the day I came out of my mother's body because no one expected her to be able to be a great mom as a teenager, this country girl who then moved to a bigger city. So I don't measure it by the talk show. I really don't. I know that sounds all like, oh, I don't. I do not. I don't. Because you'll you know, you'll define yourself by it. There's a book that I read called A Path of Light, and it says, are you what your card says beneath it? So right now, whoever's listening, you all take out your occupation. Are you still you?

That's right. And I had to very early on in my life measure my life by that because none of the people who I raised even had a business card to have a title underneath it. So they didn't measure themselves. So I wasn't raised to measure myself by that. And even doing things you're passionate about, like your new show on Court TV, Someone They Knew. That has to feel good because that's something that you really wanted to do. Yeah, right.

Because now, so going back to your question, you know, the success, the success is being able to choose your projects, right? And choose the things you want to do. So now I do have that option. So Court TV came to me and they said, we want to do a show, someone they knew, and we would like for you to do it. I did a crime show called Deadline Crime for six seasons, including when I was pregnant with Moses. And I couldn't do it anymore because it was just I was an emotional wreck. And you talk a lot about mental health. Imagine reading a script about, you know, a mother being murdered and I'm pregnant and I hadn't told anybody.

And I'm thinking, can my baby hear this way? Is he going to have anxiety? Like, what am I doing? And so I said, once I finished that last season, I would never do it again. But I miss talking to people and giving them an opportunity to be comforted and giving them a chance to tell what happened to them. And this show is fascinating to me because the common denominator is someone they knew. I mean, the crime show I did before was random crimes across the country, which are all compelling.

But this is right now someone in this room could snap. And these aren't like people who are you looking at? I'm not looking at. Wait a minute. It's the guy back there with the cap on. No, but we talk about crime, especially in New York of randomness, you know, somebody jumping out of an alley or someone following you home or a fender bender and two people get into it. But these are people that were brought into the lives of the victim through no fault of the victim. And it tells you a lot about greed, envy, jealousy, passion,

displaced passion, and what can happen. So the common thread is, and I always tell people, this show is not meant to scare you, but it is to say that there is someone in your sphere, in your universe, who could turn into a different person, who could go from the friend to a murderer. And that's what these stories are about. It's amazing.

And we see it all the time on the news. Absolutely. You know, like a guy who works in the building where you live and he's a superintendent. No, no, these are people in their world. Like for women, one in four women are the victims of a domestic violence crime or assault. That person is in their life.

So it's not the guy who's, you know, the door guy or the guy who parked the car who suddenly gets fascinated. These are intimate individuals in the lives of these people. And you wonder what drives someone. You know, remember that movie Sleeping with the Enemy? Yeah, I was thinking that. You're lying in bed with someone and you believe that they love you. And with the same mouth and voice that they say, love you they can say i hate you right and that's what's so fascinating so this show um really is it's a head trip because you do wonder how did that person

go from being we use that phrase ride or die they go from being your ride or die to wanting you to die. Yeah, and it's crazy Because I watch them like on the weekends the shows are on me and the wife cleaning or whatever we doing in this You always want it's just so interesting They are and I can't watch them at night. I watch all it's like watching a horror movie So I do it all before like my son wakes up at 5 30 a.m And I will turn on the TV my husband's like turn as you go. go yeah I'm gonna watch this and I'll binge it like 6 a.m.. 7 a.m.. They're so interesting from a human nature perspective I mean we're all by what we do We're kind of

The kind of like an archaeologist we're studying human behavior so like for example when I walked in this room I could see you studying me, and I studying you. I start to look at body language. I hugged Angela, but I didn't hug you. And then you watch how people respond. Was my breath on me? No, no, you're watching how people respond. I could even tell when my answer went too long because I can see it in your eyes, Charlamagne. So you can see it.

I can see it. No, you got it. Your body shifted. So, you know, and we all are like little investigators. Right. And so these shows turn you into investigators because you're wondering, hey, how do I avoid being a victim? B, could I prosecute this? See, how would I investigate it?

Which is also why I wrote my crime book. I have a crime series, Jordan Manning, as the Wicked Watch. I'm actually 15 chapters into the follow up to that. And that book, like this show, all inspired by human nature. And I'm no professional at this. I'm a journalist who does a talk show, but I am deeply fascinated by how people can take someone else's life, especially someone they love. Especially, you know, when you talk about human behavior, the only reason all of us are safe every day is because of

human behavior because we make a choice not to go crazy on somebody yes could you be pushed to it right could you be pushed to a point of no return I think I could you could I've never felt like I wanted to you know they somebody told me one time that and I totally disagree with this, but I've had a woman say on my podcast that if a man doesn't ever feel like he wants to kill you, he doesn't love you. Well, that's a lie. Oh, no. And I was like, that is absolutely not true. What I mean by that is not passion love.

When I had my son, they talk about the mama bear thing. I didn't know that was real until I had my son. I could have. We were walking one day and we live in the city. And this man was just demonstrative and walking. And my baby was just learning to walk. And he nearly knocked him over. I saw stars.

I saw. I mean, it was one of those moments like Oprah. We brought Oprah in color. I was like, hold my baby. I was like, I was ready to kill this man. And I turned. And before I know it, I'm like cursing. And my husband is like, what is this?

And it was a rage from the bottom of my feet. I can't believe I'm admitting this. To the top of my head. I could have. I could see that. When's the last time you wanted to kill somebody? Never. That was just at one time.

Don't try. See, this is what you do. Don't you try to make me mad like Kamala Harris. I will not fall for this nonsense. Not going to. You already got to have Nick Cannon mad at me. Damn it all said he didn't even. That is not what I said.

So let me clear that up. I said that too many people were distracted by things that didn't matter, which were Nick's great interviews, Angela. So don't try to screw me with them. So, no. No, honestly, it was only when I had my baby that it was this mama bear. When they tell you don't get in the middle of a bear cub and the mama bear, I understood and understand that snap because I never felt it. It doesn't go away.

It doesn't? Oh, please don't tell me that. I got six. You it. It doesn't go away. It doesn't? Oh, please don't tell me that. I got six. You know, it doesn't go away. You feel like you're on guard constantly. I'm ready to do it. Really? I'm ready to kill somebody

over my kids. I'm not lying because we see so many stories all the time of people doing things to kids. I'm like, and you know, we are the wish a nigga would

type of people. I wish a mother, I wish somebody would. Okay, you said it. I won't say it, but that's how I feel with my son. I feel like. What about your husband? Do you feel like that?

No, he's grown. He's 53. But if somebody did something to him, you wouldn't be like, I'm going to kill that person. Oh, no, we would get it going. No, it's my husband. He feels like that about you. It's different. He better.

I hope. Of course. Of course. This is a funny story. I was once engaged to a man and we we went on vacation together, and we parasailed. And we were out in the ocean in Cozumel or somewhere. This was many years ago. And the parasail snapped.

I can't swim. I flew into the ocean. He was still on the boat. I called off the wedding. Absolutely. And that's a true story. The guy on the boat who didn't even speak English was like swimming toward me. Was he on the boat chilling?

He didn't move. He was like, you had a life vest. You had a life vest on. And he was a lifeguard growing up. What? I may have told too much and he's going to sue me now. There's been pools and oceans, though. What?

I'm just trying to look at all kinds. That's his fiance. I'm just trying to be objective. That should be your reaction. It should be, I got to save her. No. And he's a lifeguard. Last weekend, I think it was Miami. Fiance fell I'm just trying to be objective. That should be your reaction. It should be, I got to save her. No. Last weekend, I think it was Miami, fiance fell in the ocean.

Guy jumped in after her. Chop was at the plane. The boat killed him. Oh, yeah, that was very sad. I'm going in for my wife. No, don't do that. I'm just saying. But that's what happened.

I'm just saying. That's not. No. And all they did was throw the life raft for her and got her. But he died for love. Yeah, but he should have let the people on the boat do their job. No, I could not. So what was his excuse afterward?

I didn't speak to him. We flew all the way back, and I said, this is not going to work. And damn. What was his explanation? Listen, I did not ask. They got you. I did not. I was so upset and so disappointed

Maybe he froze on Black Panther when she was like don't freeze Maybe he froze Well we'll never know You wasn't concerned about drowning You was more concerned about how come this nigga didn't come here Not that word No what I No so first of all the parasail

I was terrified it was going to come down over my head, but it fell behind me. I had a life jacket on. I can't swim. So now I'm thinking two things. Thank God the parasail did not. Then I'm like, Jaws is going to eat my legs because I'm in the deepest part of the ocean. He might have been thinking that, too. He was like, so whose side are you on, Angela?

Far away from the boat. First you were like, I can't believe it. And then you're like, wait a minute, what if there's Jaws? No, my legs are dangling Angela? Far away from the boat. She went like, I can't believe it. And jump in. You're like, wait a minute. What if there's jaws? No, my legs are dangling. And how far is the boat? They had to turn around. Wow.

She was there for a minute. Because I flew. It snapped. And I flew out. And pow, hit the water. It was like cement. I could have died. And then they flew back around.

Came back. And then I realized I wasn't going to go under. And I locked eyes with him. And I was like Swim this way Swim this way Doggy pedal So he didn't even try to explain himself?

You know it's so long ago but whatever he said wasn't suffice, it wasn't enough because I remember getting on that boat and I was like this man will never, ever. She was like, world star. I'm trying.

Yeah, you've been taking lessons, right? I've been trying. I still can't swim. You can't? You should come and swim. Well, my son can swim. I'm still learning. Isn't that terrible?

Your son can swim and you're like, which is great. You guys love building people up. Isn't that terrible? What kind of? That's how I feel when little kids be swimming circles around me. And I'm like, why can I still not see them? He's a part of my motivation going back to that mama bear. So when we got our kid, when I had him, and I said, okay, we have this pool.

And, you know, we do so many stories. And it is so important. And I did a report on, you know, there's this whole study on why people of color don't swim. And it has nothing to do with an inability to swim. It was a fascinating study from USA Swim that basically said two things. When they asked young black girls, it was about our hair. Yeah. It was about our hair.

But more important than that, because that was a very small percentage. You don't want to put your child in a situation where you can't save them. So, so many black parents and parents of color can't swim. And so you say, I know you can swim, but I need to be able to save my baby. And so as a result, it has nothing to do with like a lack of swimming programs. You know, a lot of people pointed to pools closing in areas. It had nothing to do with that. It was, I cannot bring myself to put my baby in a position where they would be harmed.

And I can't, going back to mama bear, daddy bear, can't go in and save them. So that's been a part of it. So when I had Moses, I was like, I cannot possibly be here and not be able to launch in. So the first class I took, they taught me diving. So they would put these things and they said. The first class was diving? 100%. They learned how to get in the water?

Well, no, diving and retrieving. Because they said, we won't call it anything. We'll say a piece of something falls on. So we would never use that visual. That seems like a level five or something. I needed it though, right? So they would put it in and I'd dive. And they taught me how your instinct is when you dive in, you hold your breath.

So you're panicking and something is underwater. You go, are you diving? Well, you're going to run out of air. So they taught me how to push the air out going in so that I could go in and and so it was intense And it was terrifying but going back to what you will do for love. That was one of the things I respect you breaking that off though because it's like you can't really do those vows sickness and in health and all that You respect me now because you first were defending him and you said he could have been killed by a manatee. A manatee could have slapped him.

But I get it, though, because you can't with confidence say those vows knowing that you almost let your woman drown. Or I couldn't be confident in hearing it. What about my perspective? He could probably have said them because I'm sure now I've got to go find him on Facebook and I'll ask him why didn't he jump in? But have you ever been at a crossroad? I met your wife, too. I met Charlamagne's beautiful wife at the Tyler Perry studio. Is there any have you been in a moment or crossroad where you had to say, I got to jump in?

Was there ever a confrontation with a guy looking at her? No, not yet. Hopefully never. I'm too old now to be doing. Yeah, you got to get some push-ups. You ready. You got to be ready. I was going to ask, how old is Moses?

Moses will be three in April. Three in April. When you're teaching, one thing about swimming, just remember, sometimes it doesn't matter that he can swim, but if kids are around him and grab him, even though if you could swim, so they teach you, if that's the case, tell Moses to go down under the water.

Because when you go under the water, Okay, my heart is racing now. You got my heart racing. I'm six. I know. And that's why I Tell Moses to go down Under the water Because when you go Under the water My heart is racing now You got my heart racing I know And that's why I teach the kids swimming And the reason I never Learned how to swim

Is in Queens We didn't have a swimming pool Do you swim now? I swim Yeah I was on the swim team Oh you were Yeah So I taught

Even with the Beijing In your beard You still jump in the water Shut up Is that that? That's not Beijing Oh okay It's just for men

But as soon as the kids Are young Like six, seven months, I put them in the water. That's what we did. So that way they're learning. All my kids know how to swim great. See, that's good. We did that with Moses. We started at, he was a few weeks old. And actually I saw a Gabrielle Union is a friend and I saw Kavya in the water. I was like, okay, look at her. She's doing it. I'm showing my infant these pictures. And she is a phenomenal swimmer and I wanted him in the water. But it is

truly one of those intimidating things even still for me. But it is so important. And there are so many misnomers about why black people don't swim. And it just when I got involved with this organization, USA Swim, and started studying, it was after, I think it was three and I don't want to quote it wrong, but there was an incident in Louisiana where there was a sandbar and the children fell in and they drowned. And as adults were going out to save them, they were drowning. It's like three generations of a black family died. This was about 10 years ago. I did the story. It was devastating and nobody in the family. And so the others were forced to stand at the shore. And it was just like, it blew my mind.

It blew my mind. And that was also a part of the catalyst for me wanting to help them get the message out about the swim. But you can come over. We'll help you. I know. I got to learn how to swim. You do. How old are you?

Too old to not know how to swim. You don't say your age. I should have. She's never been to Disney World. Never saw The Lion King either. I saw the play, the Broadway play, The Lion King. What? Okay, you judge me for not playing Uno?

Are you kidding me? She got a point, Yee. I have seen the Broadway play, though. That's not the movie! You've never seen the movie? And I've never been to Disney World. Disney World. Disneyland?

I've been to Disneyland in California, never Disney World in Orlando. Why don't you guys take her for her birthday? No, thank you. I got enough kids. I'd rather have a good time. I just got four daughters. I will go with you. You will love it.

We'll go swimming in Disney World. No, we will not. No, we will not do that because there are a lot of kids in that water and everything else it is you know what it's very very fun it is truly magical and you have to get that iconic picture where you're right in the middle and it's behind do you have any nieces or nephews or anything I have a lot of younger cousins you guys you should do a family trip it's expensive I think I would go with my friends at this point now and my kids I have three godchildren

you know you should go. I know you give great financial advice. It is expensive. I heard. You got to get the tour. Plus, I got a little hug up there. You got to get the tour. My girl, Quaya, who's on the radio in Orlando, she's already set it up.

So when I go there next, she's like, we're going to go. It's a lot. You want to get a fast pass. You want to get a tour. You want to. And then it's a lot. What? I got to go go next month am I too old to be a Disney where no listen do you know that Disney is the number one destination for couples to honeymoon I could never honey that's too much stress and they have the whole Disney

wedding collection like people you know like they had the Gucci Disney collaboration they have people go and they design beautiful gowns inspired Disney wedding collection. Nah. Like people, you know, like they had the Gucci Disney collaboration. Yeah. They have people go and they design beautiful gowns inspired by the princesses. Yes. Is that a word? Yeah, my oldest daughter

does cheerleading, so they have their cheerleading competition there every April. No, it is truly magical. I'm going to make it there. I'll let you know. You're going to make it there?

You're like you're going to Mars with Pete Davidson. I'm going to make it there. I'm going to let Jeff Bezos know. Jeff Bezos, give me a seat. You're going to make it there. You're like you're going to Mars with Pete Davidson. I'm going to make it there. I'm going to let Jeff Bezos know. Jeff Bezos, give me a seat. You could go tomorrow. You own like half of Brooklyn.

I read every time about you buying another house, another town. You should get on a plane tonight and fly private and fly right back. You should just fly right there and go. You know what fascinated me? You had a couple of the women

from Tinder Swindler on the show. That's terrifying. Yes, that was terrifying to me. I feel like people didn't have a lot of sympathy for them. They didn't. People don't have sympathy for... We do a lot of shows on this type of crime, this type of fraud that takes place. And we did one season, I think it was season one or two of our show, a woman, she was a CIA spy, and a man swindled her out of over a million dollars.

Good Lord. And people had no sympathy for her. And I don't, it breaks my heart. And I try to explain to folks, cons are good because they're cons. And when people say, oh, that wouldn't have ever happened to me, like, yes, that's what they do. It's like, that's their, they spend their entire day trying to figure out how to get you to get, you don't think you could do it.

I'll be watching the show. I think last night I watched Raw Food and Wine. I think that's the name of it. You've never felt taken, oh, that was Raw Vegan. I saw that one. You've never felt

taken advantage of ever in a romantic situation. Remember you bought them fake leather jackets? I bought a fake leather jacket, but that was $200. You bought a fake? It was on the train. But that's the beginning. No, it wasn't even on the train. I've seen them.

But he put the fire against the leather and told me leather doesn't burn. Okay, look, you understand how crazy that sounds? I bought a leather jacket with a guy with a flame torch. It gave me a test. It was a great story. It is a great story.

It was. But that's how it starts. But it's only $200, $250. It doesn't matter. To you. That's a lot of money. That's a lot of money to a lot of people. And I feel like you bought several jackets.

I was going to give my whole life savings for that jacket. But $250 is the beginning. So first of all, $250 is a lot of money, again, to buy a jacket on a subway. With a flame torch. With a flame torch. $50, I could see. $250 is a lot. I feel like you bought some fake sneakers, too.

Look what you just said. He said. And that's what you got got. If you can wear a fake beard, you can wear a fake leather. Shut up! Do you dye it? No, I don't do nothing to it. He's lying! You told us you did. Now you gotta stop.

Are you a pitch person for them try to swindle us. Are you a pitch person for them? No, I'm not. He's not a pitch person. I'm like, any name I mention three times,

you get... What? Do you have a pitch product? People always ask about your skin. Everyone always talks about how beautiful it is. I have a dermatologist,

Dr. Natasha Sandy. It's beautiful. But I don't use Beijing. Tamron, have you ever been swindled? Yes, ma'am. Have I ever been swindled? Like a date swindled? Or anything? Like every. Have I ever been swindled? Like a date swindled?

Or anything. Like every second about the flame toys and the leather. Like, no. Yes. What you bought? Fake? I've never bought anything fake. What'd you get?

How'd you get swindled? Oh, I can't tell the story. Come on. No, because it involves illegal stuff. No, because I... I know. How much did you lose? Just say that much.

I didn't lose anything. I got it back. But... How much did they lose? Just say that much. I didn't lose anything. I got it back. How much did they take before you got it back? I had deposited $5,000. Wow. And then because of our service related to my child. And then the service turned out not to be legitimate. And then I had to go and get it back.

And we could have bought 20 leather jackets get it back. Get it back. And be cut about 20 leather jackets. I hate being cagey, but it did get legal. So I can't get shit. And she'll be watching like, you really? Now I want my money back. But, you know, with the dating thing, it's about getting someone when they're vulnerable. And love makes us so vulnerable.

Going back, I mean, I don't want to make this a thematic show the love of your child the lack of love or the guy didn't jump in to save me any of these things it's it's love and and they zero in on it i had the tender swindler women on and to your point you think like at the point they're asking for oh my check didn't come in if you front me this i'll I'll give it back. They just nibble away. At the same time, they love bombing them. They're showering them with gifts. And in that case, he was buying gifts with the money from other women. So you're thinking, oh, he just took me on a $4,000, you know, dinner. So he's got to have the money. I'm on a private jet. He'll give it back. But yeah, it is a huge problem and think about it these are the people

who come on tv do you know how many others that you know who stay silent right and who don't tell how they've been taken advantage of it's crazy but i i see how it can thank god it's never happened but i see how it can yeah watching that i saw how it could happen because he was definitely doing a lot of things he's pulling up in a lambhini. You don't think he has stolen it. And then he's taking them on trips on private planes. And then you're believing that his life is in danger because people are after him. Well, that's when he lost me. Security got beat up.

And he's sending pictures. When I heard that, too much. We always remember when they start adding on, like, so that they say there are tells with a lie. And so obviously you watch the eyes. If the eyes go down and go up, there are different tells. When people start adding on too much detail, that's when you know. Keep your lie simple.

Keep your lie simple. I hate to give you this advice, but when doing a crime show and I do, I view a lot of interrogation video and looking even with my new show at, you know, we have a, one guy we have his interrogation video and I was sitting there the whole time like, please stop. He just kept going and he, you know, they say a one guy we have his interrogation video and I was sitting there the whole time like please stop

But he just kept going and he you know, they say talk yourself into a lot He just keep your lie first. I'll always commit the crime by yourself Never because they're gonna do it anybody gonna tell everybody Don't do it at Disney. There are cameras everywhere. No, I do a crime show. So again, going back to what Charlamagne said, you study people. And one of the things I always tell people, everybody, you get caught when you do it with somebody else. If you're going to rob the bank, just leave the car out front and don't take anyone because they're going to tell on you.

That's the first thing. The second thing is keep it simple. Stupid. Keep it simple, stupid. Keep it simple, stupid. Do not go in the interrogation room believing that you can trick them. You cannot trick those investigators. That's all they do all day long is hear people lie.

It's just like I know you know when people are lying in an interview. I do. I interview people and I'm like, this is not a true story or this is a TV version in an interview. I do. I interview people and I'm like, this is not a true story or this is a TV version of the story. They know. I want to ask you something because you used this word a couple of times throughout the interview, journalism. Do you think there's still

such things as objective journalism or is everything opinion based? It was never objective. It was never objective. 100%. How can it be? We're humans. We go home to our lives. So you're telling me it's like when, you. We go home to our lives. So you're telling me, it's like when, you know, going back to my show, when they say to the jury, strike what you just heard. How?

How? It's not possible. So we go in with our biases. We go in with our beliefs. We go in with our perspective. And how you extract that would make you one of the most incredible people ever. And that would be Jesus, because I don't think it's possible. And you can try to suppress some of it. But going back to, you know, the book that I wrote and when we talked about missing black and brown, people pick white blonde women to lead for a reason. That's not, that's a bias because you believe

that the audience values that life more or will not turn it from that story. That's the reason why people, I was on a couple of shows and people, well, why do you think this continues to happen? We know the answer why. So then why does that happen? Because people have biases. They see that looks like my daughter. That could be my kid. She looks just like my daughter's friend. Oh, my gosh. That could happen in my neighborhood. Reporters are just people. It's impossible. And I know a lot of my colleagues will greatly disagree with me and may not be happy with me saying that. I've been in newsrooms for 30 years. I'm in the newsroom with people,

not robots. And you hear and see every day. And that doesn't mean it's a negative, right? Because sometimes your perspective and bias can help. But there's no way. There's no way. So how do you trust any of these networks?

CNN, MSNBC, Fox? Because it's all opinion-based. How do I know that you're just giving me the facts as they know them? You don't. I mean, you're asking me a beginning of time question. This is I mean, journalism didn't start with MSNBC. I know people believe that, but it did not. I mean, the history of journalism, muckraking, you know, look at when we talk about dirty politics. I won't bore you, but take a second to look at the Thomas Jefferson attacks. I mean, just it is it's incredible.

So I feel like not to oversimplify, but just even Alexander Hamilton. Everyone loves Hamilton. I bring that up. That was a dirty politics. I mean, this isn't new journalism being used to demean. Look at some of the people love cartoons, you know, political cartoons. You've seen some of the political cartoons of Irish people, Italian people, black people. We talk a lot about how we were made to look in political

cartoons in these exaggerated, you know, monstrous ways. This is a part of the political agenda since people could pick up a pen and a paper without words. So, the idea that CNN, MSNBC, or Fox started this is ridiculous. And the idea that human beings who come in from very different worlds, and sometimes the people they're reporting on.

I just saw a whole conversation about monetizing journalism. We know people, you and I, in journalism who make $60 million. What are you going to do to keep that $60 million check? You're going to do what you need to do. You're going to go on TV and say some crazy things if that's what you're paying to say. Anything that's monetized is corruptible. Anything that's monetized is tainted.

And when you make millions and millions of dollars as a journalist, which I hope to, it's going to impact you. It is. And that's a lie when people say that it doesn't. You make eight million dollars a year. What are you going to do to keep making that eight million? First of all, why? Why? And I say that knowing again that I want all of us to have eight to 20 to 30 million dollar contracts. But why? If you're not a war correspondent, right, Because those people are putting it in on the line.

What you see out of Ukraine is incredible reporting that I don't and I couldn't ever do. But I do think that that's not, though, to say that there aren't honest journalists. I think most journalists are honest. Honest and biased are two different things. So what is a journalist? I feel like all of them are biased. Oh, what is a journalist? It's somebody like all of them are biased. Oh, what is a journalist? It's somebody who reports what they see and what they hear. And that's what we're supposed to be doing. Now, what is opinion?

That's different. But a journalist, I just did an interview with Chike and Kuti. They did the documentary on Kanye. It's phenomenal. It's a phenomenal documentary. They are journalists to me. They picked up a camera and they journaled and chronicled the rise of Kanye West into what he is now, which I believe is a genius. So they follow that. That's journalism to me. Anybody can pick up their phone. And the citizen reporters, half of the crimes against black people related to police are because one person, George Floyd, she picked up the camera. You know what I mean?

She's a journalist. She's also brave and a transformational person in this conversation of police brutality. But at the end of the day, she was a journalist. She picked up that phone and chronicled what she saw in an unbiased way, but then turned it over from the perspective of being black and knowing that that could have been her too. So I think anyone can be a journalist. Opinion is very different. And that's, you know, after

7 p.m. or whatever. Yeah, I feel like everything is opinion-based now. No, I don't think that's true. I don't think... There's a clear difference, I feel, between what happens from 9 until five or whatever. And then after five, I think I think I think so. But that's part of why representation matters so much, because we do have our own biases that we bring with us, like you said.

But you want people that also have a similar experience because of the way they tell the story is different. Well, I think someone is from the outside that maybe doesn't understand cultural things. Well, I think it's a complicated answer because I just had somebody on recently who said, you know, well, as a white guy, I was in over my skis to talk about George Floyd. And I said, wait, but you can't view it that way either, because I don't need to walk in your shoes to tell you that it's wrong. So, for example, I'm a kid from, you know, Texas, rural Texas. The only Jewish person I knew growing up was Jesus, right? When I first learned about the Holocaust, I think I was in the fifth grade. My teacher didn't have to tell me that was wrong. My teacher didn't have to say, oh my God, I didn't need to be Jewish, practice the faith, practice the culture, go to a Seder dinner, any of that. I knew what I saw on there was wrong. So I don't personally need to walk a white colleague through why George Floyd was wrong.

And you can't let people off the hook by saying, oh, well, no, I think you still have a responsibility to report and know when something's wrong. But I also feel like somebody that can relate to something more, when I watch that type of reporting, is something that is important to have. Like if you have somebody who's from, say they're talking about our mayor, Eric Adams, and you have somebody that's from here, as opposed to somebody that's from Texas. Texas.

Yeah. I agree. It is a little bit of a difference. It is absolutely different. I think, though, what happens, though, is people then use it as an excuse not to know. Right. Right. So I'm a reporter from Texas. It was my job to learn New York. It was my job to learn Flatbush or Crown Heights. It was my job.

So I can't go into my newsroom and say, oh, I'm from Texas. So I'm bowing out. And when it comes to race and gender, I watch a lot of people bow out and use that as an excuse. Well, I'm not a woman, so I'll never know. Well, you know, a woman. I'm not black, so I'm in over my ski. So I really am. I can't talk about that because I don't know. You're a human. You're a human. You're a human. And so I just I am always careful of when people talk about, you know, that because they use it as an excuse for them not to know. Our diversity is important in the room for exactly what you said. It sometimes is used against us in the sense that it lets people off the hook for them not to learn.

That's why I love seeing the conversations where they have panels and different people from different perspectives can talk about the same. Well, that's why this show works. I mean, that's why you're a hugely successful show, because you come in, you bring your perspective. DJ and you guys bring your perspective. And that's why a show like this. And I'm not just saying it because I'm here as a guest. This is what one day people might not agree with something you say. They like what he says. And that's why The View was such a hugely popular show. And that's why everyone tried to do panel shows. The key, though, is you have to have the right components. And you have the ability and agency to speak up

just as much as they do, which makes the show compelling. You're not just the woman they're representing us. You're a strong voice representing us. When we see you salute Wendy Williams last week, why was it important for you to do that? Wendy has done something. There's a morgue of dead daytime careers, you know, where people.

God damn. I can tell you listen to rappers. God damn. You in the morgue of dead daytime careers. Jesus. That was like Court TV slash rappers slash. I'm leaving. This has rappers slash... I'm leaving. This has been too...

I'm taking... Drake! On my back. Where's Birdman? I'm out of here. I'm going to take this crap. No. What I said was...

No, because I really... It's not the kind of show I would have done. I'm going to be very honest. But she did it so brilliantly and did it for over a decade. And when people would say, oh, she was this, she was that, and nobody should be feeling sorry for her. Howard Stern, no, A-list celebrities still go on his show despite things that he said. And he's the king of media. And I would hear people say, I don't want to go on Wendy. But they would go on his show despite things that he said. And he's the king of media. And I would hear people say, I don't want to go on Wendy.

But they would go on his show. And I thought, this is a double standard. She is doing this shocking style of performance, which is exactly what he did. But she was somehow penalized in the eyes of some people. But she stayed on for 13 years. She survived. Google how many failed daytime shows happened while she was on doing more with less. It was a chair and a woman who was an excellent performer in that style of television. And she deserves that acknowledgement.

I'm getting all hot now. You make me mad. Because I just feel like people, like I said, listen, there's a lot of things that I did not agree with. And the Whitney Houston thing still bugs me to this day. And there are a lot of other things. But that said, I felt there was an unfair level of

unfairness directed at her style when a comparable peer who did a similar show was still seen as A-list. What do you think should be next for her? I've been hearing about The View, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Because I don't know

what it is, right? I mean, she was on with TJ Holmes. I commented only because she came out with TJ Holmes and talked with him on Good Morning America. I don't last time I saw her we were in Philadelphia and she was at the train depot with some friends I guess they were her team some members of her team and you know she was like I look terrible right now you know don't look my and she started telling me about the the the thyroid and whatnot and I you know I don't know it breaks my heart it breaks my heart it really does it and I don't know her as well as you do um but it does and I I'm I don't know I don't know now everybody knows you were close with Prince do you feel like his legacy is being represented correctly well I think he had a choice um to map out a better plan and he chose not to map out a better plan and he's a very the smartest human being I've ever met second to Nick Cannon don't try to say I said something about Nick Cannon he's brilliant and Prince is second to Nick Cannon? No, I'm kidding. That's a headline. I said Nick Cannon was second to Prince.

No, he thought out everything, every detail. And I cannot imagine that it did not once cross his mind that he did not have a plan for what happened. So I guess I choose to assume that he didn't care what was going to happen. Wow. Or maybe sometimes you don't know the end is coming. You think you have time. That's all he talked about was the end. Really?

Yeah. The afterlife. What is that like? Yeah, no, he talked about a lot that this is not the end game place, right? That there is much more for us to know spiritually and to be connected to spiritually. I don't think he was as tied to these things as we believe.

And that's why he left these things for others to deal with. I don't believe he was as tied to it as people thought. With the show Someone They Knew, there was a personal incident that kind of made you gravitate towards this series as well, right? Yes. We've talked a little bit about it before. My sister was murdered in an unsolved crime. And the person of interest, the only person of interest was someone in her life. And so that goes back to what we were talking about, who amongst you could turn into somebody that you don't recognize?

And so I was not there on the night that she lost her life, but I was very much aware over our years. My sister was extremely beautiful, so vibrant and fun. Like, she knew how to play Uno. And just the really a life of the party kind of person. But she had in her past had some very violent relationships and it wasn't just one. And so what I started to talk about more than the night that she lost her life was things that I was present to. And I was there

when things happened to her that were horrifying. And it did make me wonder about safety as a woman and all of those things. Yeah. What's your experience been like hosting the

Taryn Hall Show? What's been the biggest challenge? Standing up for yourself. You know, I mean, we all have shows that we had ideas that we want to do. And then people start coming in the room and they try to change you or change how you handle the show or what. I think that I'm happy that I have the show now in that my back was against the wall when I started it, so I navigate more strategically and more confidently. What I mean by that is sometimes people don't agree with decisions that are made, but I stand up for myself.

I'm not going to shrink down, and I'm not going to— I went into rooms with people and fought for this show to be on TV, so I'm not going to lean out of that for anybody. But I'm always open to ideas. But the hardest part, really, other than a global pandemic, has been just expectations, right? Expectations of myself and what I have of my staff. And when you talk about double standards, when you boss up in that way. Oh, my gosh.

And you're all types of difficulty. It's crazy i i read things i it's an ongoing joke now with me and my team i walk in i go am i scary as they say i am there you go i i i learned by the second season i just learned that it was a template right this is what they do it's like okay uh now the show is popular. She's out there. What are we going to say? Difficult, angry, this, that, toxic, blah, blah, blah. And don't get me wrong. To someone working as hard as we do may be their definition of toxic. I don't know. So I would never tell someone how to feel. And if that's how you feel, I always listen to the staff. I'm there to have the conversation. But if you believe that we are going to give our audience a product that is beneath them,

we're not doing that. I mean, we call our audience the Tam Fam. I work every day to make sure that when a guest like you come, I said, Charlamagne's coming on. I don't want people just to think that he is a shock jock or whatever their perception. He has layers. He's a husband. He's a dad. I don't want people just to think that he is a shock jock or whatever their perception.

He has layers. He's a husband. He's a dad. That's why we brought you on the show that you were on. Because I sat in a room and said, he's not one dimensional. I don't want him on for two minutes to come on and talk about some headline that he said this about somebody and got into it. No, I want the audience to know him. You know, people still come up to me now

and talk to me about that episode. Really? It was an episode about mental health. I mean, random people in the airport. I saw you on Tamron Hall talking about mental health. Well, that's interesting because I actually had to, and I'll take you behind the scenes. I had a, not a clash, but I had to sit down a producer and say, this is what we're doing with him. Because it was important to show you as the multi-dimensional human being that you are not oh this guy on the radio that I may or may not have heard of you are internationally famous this show is internationally known but that said everybody don't know you so you got to take them through the journey and so for me that was important now that might have been a hard

segment for that producer too because it took more time but it paid off and they loved the segment and i was happy you loved the segment and the audience resonated so you know nothing you don't get to um do something easy and just expect there to be rewards you gotta work looking at our watch i know you gotta go the man who would have jumped in the ocean for me You could have just said you got to go. My husband's calling. Oh, okay. The man who would have jumped in the ocean for me. I'm not A.S.A. You know how to swim now, so. You don't know? We don't know.

We just don't know. Why don't we? You said something earlier. April Fools and we'll punk them. Like, what is that show? No, you said something earlier that made me think. Because you said something about love and fear. And I was like, well, that show? You said something earlier that made me think. You said something about love and fear. I was like, what if fear overpowers love?

I think it's better to be feared. I'm saying in that moment, you could love this person, but you're afraid to do it. It was a life sign. Quit trying to make excuses. I can't believe you brought this back. I'm just saying.

I need to hear both sides. As an objective journalist, I need to hear both sides. That's all I'm saying. You need to hear both sides. As an objective journalist, I need to hear both sides. As an opinion journalist. What could he tell you? I was terrified that jumping in as a trained lifeguard to save her. He didn't even have to go reach for me. Maybe just pedal around me and say, babe, it's going to be okay.

They're going to pull you out. What if he threw a rope? I agree. A rope? He should have jumped in. His fiance could have swam. Go get your fiance. Angela said, what if he throws a rope? Okay. Grab it. I'm going to wrap

it around my waist. They're going to pull me in? No. Tamron, before you leave, I have one more question because we know you're looking at your watch. I'm not looking at my watch. My husband called. So what do you do when somebody tells you there's a guest coming on and they don't want to talk about a certain topic? Right?

Do you? Oh, I think about that. I do because, for example, some guests don't like talking about exes and they're in a current relationship. I agree with that. I would never have DJ Envy on about another relationship because he's not, his wife is there.

I always tell people, like, we'll have a guest on and they'll say let's ask about you know the man she dated three years ago that happened to be famous or whatever and I said but she's not with him now imagine going to a dinner party and I ask you in front of your new guy about the guy three times back That's rude. And so I feel like there's got to be some decency for me, right? And I don't want anybody to feel ambushed. I mean, we had Andrew Gillum on. I mean, that was a tough one.

And people were mad that I didn't say, well, are you gay? I'm like, why did I need to ask that question? He told me what he wanted me to know, right? And I can still do a thoughtful interview. There are certain things that I'm happy we didn't talk about here because it just I'm not afraid of any answer. But we know we live in a clickbait world. Right. And so you both are going to be guests on my show very soon. I could have my team dig up all kinds of, well, once I read on the Shade Room and I saw this and da-da-da. What purpose does that serve any of us? So for me, I want you to feel safe. I want you to feel that there's grace in mistakes.

That's why I said with Nick Cannon, being able to get back on air, he deserved that shot. I want to interview Kanye West. I don't agree with some of the incoming traffic that's coming his way. I think people deserve grace. I think they deserve space. But that said, when you have a high-profile individual, they should be prepared to answer tough questions. Yeah, I thought you gave Andrew a lot of grace. And I liked how you handled that

because it didn't feel exploitive. And that's what I don't want to do, right? And even when people, and you guys do a great job, when folks come in here and they're in the midst of a scandal, they should be prepared. Oprah says, you cannot tell me what to ask you. You are in charge of how you answer.

And so I always come in knowing that people might ask me something that I'm not, like, I don't fully talk about Prince for a lot of reasons, but I don't. But I'm always prepared for it. So they should be prepared. We're big kids. We're on a big stage. You got a big stage.

And if you want to stand on that stage, you got to be ready for the questions. And so that's how I approach the show. Some people have been nasty about it, and I just decline their appearance. I just say we can't. We can negotiate. And some people will say, oh, I can't talk about it and I just declined their appearance. I just say, we can't. We can negotiate and some people will say, oh, I can't talk about it for legal reasons. I know when they're not telling the truth about that.

And I'll say, okay, well, what about this? But if there's a hard no and it's of importance to the audience to know, then I would rather pass. And I have said, come back when you're ready to talk. Well, Tamron Hall, we appreciate you joining us this morning. Amazing conversation. Thank you so much. Good to see you.

And congratulations on everything. Two more seasons, a new show. Sunday nights? Sunday nights. Court TV. Court TV. I'm super excited about that. The Tamron Hall show, the book.

But again, thank you guys. This is my first time. I was a little bit nervous. Really? Why? Not scared. Nervous because none of you would jump in the water to save me. And I knew that when I came in this room.

I can't swim. I can't swim. No. Well, I'm happy because now you you would jump in the water to save me, and I knew that when I came in this room. I can't swim. I can't swim. No. Well, I'm happy because now you're both going to be on. I'll call 911 and be like, there's going to be an emergency. We're in the middle of Mexico in the ocean. That's all I can do. Angela, I love you.

You're going to be on my show soon. DJ Envy, Charlamagne, come back anytime. Thank you so much. And please do not start any static with me and Nick Cannon. I have nothing to do with that. Whatever comes to this interview. All I can do is ask the questions, Tamron. No, that's so funny!

Give me my bag like LeBron James. I'm outta here. Tamron Long, it's the Reference Club. Good morning. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Post Run High, is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together.

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Sleep tight, if you can. Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.