The Breakfast Club - The Black Mother Wound: I Thought Me and My Mother Were Close

Episode Date: July 25, 2026

For years, Jennifer believed she and her mother had a close relationship. They talked every day. They spent time together. They shopped together. She called her mother her best friend. But healing has a way of making us revisit old stories and ask harder questions. In this episode, Jennifer explores the painful difference between genuine closeness and enmeshment. She unpacks how many Black daughters confuse access, obligation, guilt, and emotional caretaking for intimacy. She shares personal stories from her relationship with her mother, reflects on celebrating her son's high school graduation, and challenges listeners to examine whether the relationship they call "close" actually allows them to be fully themselves. If you've ever said, "Me and my mama are close," but still struggle to use your voice, make decisions without guilt, or show up authentically around her, this episode is for you. Ep 97 – I Thought Me and My Mother Were Close ✨ In This Episode Why Jennifer intentionally celebrated Vincent's high school graduation The importance of teaching our children they deserve to be seen and celebrated Why many daughters believe they are close to their mothers The difference between closeness and enmeshment How self-abandonment becomes normalized in mother-daughter relationships Why emotional caretaking is not intimacy The hidden cost of being the "good daughter" Questions to help you identify enmeshment in your own life How parentification creates one-sided relationships Why healing requires building a stronger relationship with yourself, not your mother 💭 Reflection Question When you think about your relationship with your mother, are you experiencing genuine closeness—or have you been taught to mistake obligation, guilt, and emotional caretaking for love? Because healing starts when we're willing to tell ourselves the truth. Even when it's uncomfortable. Even when it changes the story we've been holding onto for years. Let’s keep in touch! Grab my free mini-course Work with me one-on-one Attend my live event in Charlotte Ask me anything about healing your mother wound and I’ll answer it on the podcast. Click here to ask. Original Publishing Date 6.9.26YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Didn't always work, came with its own problems. That's what made it great. The cast of obsession. On set, there was so much magic happening with each scene we were putting together. Deep dives into classics like 2001 of Space Odyssey or Fight Club, plus weekly episodes on all industry news. Listen to Raiders of the Lost Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And for more, follow at Raiders of the Lost Podcast and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. The Dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching Podlandia, AEO rewatch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together, breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters, and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made. And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life. Guest stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Chrysall, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin,

legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more. Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song. Well, I thought you were all going to write a song. I remember you thinking that. Listen to Podlandia. A.O. Rewatch on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers.

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Welcome to the Black Mother Wound podcast, a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network and IHeart Radio, where we center the stories of black women as we heal from the painful relationships with our mothers. Welcome to the Black Mother Woon podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Arnese.

Welcome back, y'all. Happy Tuesday or whatever day it is that you are listening to this episode. I know last week, y'all got a replay because I have been deep in the throes of becoming a mother of an official high school graduate. Vincent graduated from high school last week. I had family members over. I had friends over. people came from out of town and baby when I tell you it was perfect I have been waiting for that moment since he was started probably since the first day of kindergarten and y'all know the journey of us is just being he and I

and me building a village slowly intentionally and so to see people take the time out of their day to get on the highway or get on on a plane to come and see him and celebrate him, child, don't get me to cry. And it's really interesting because he didn't want anybody to come. He was like, why are people coming to my graduation? It's not a big deal. Why are you doing all this? Why are you cooking? Why are you cleaning?

Why are you? And I was just trying to help him to understand that what he's doing, it deserves to be celebrated. You know, everybody doesn't graduate from high school. even if they did, you still deserve to be celebrated. And he was having a hard time with that. It was kind of like, okay, I'm graduating high school. So what? Like, I don't know what the big deal is.

Then the day of came and he started seeing like the food being put out and the drinks and the setup. And he was kind of like, this is kind of nice. Like, this is for me, you know. And then everybody started to file in, people showing up and we're just kicking it. And then so, you know, they're there, go to the graduation, come back, hang out, everybody leaves. And I was like, how was it? You know, what was it like having people show up for you for something that you did?

And he was like, that was kind of nice. It felt good. And I want him to know that feeling. I, you know, two people came to see me graduate. My aunt came and my father came. My mother didn't come. I didn't have family members. I don't, yeah, I barely graduated, you know, because I was in the streets. So I didn't grow up knowing that, you know, I should be celebrated or even having someone benchmark a success of mine. And even though I've always thrown birthday parties for him as a kid, somehow I have passed that on to him that like people, shouldn't go out of their way for him to, you know, applaud him. And I really want to undo that. So his graduation this past week was just a great, I hope, a great memory for him that he's important,

that he's special. And even if you're doing something that you were going to do anyway, that wasn't hard to do that you are seen. And I just think that's so important because I didn't get that. And y'all know what it's like to be trying to parent your kids different, give them different experiences so they can grow up with like a different sense of who they are. And I hope he got that this year. You know, I really, really do. And I hope he carries it with him. So yeah, that was my, that's what's been going on around here.

But now to the topic at hand, I was thinking about this. I was driving somewhere and I just had to chuckle. and what I was thinking was I thought me and my mother were close. Like, I really thought she and I were close. And I realized that I'm still coming to terms with our relationship. And some things are still hard for me to say. You know, it's like, it's cringy to hear it come out of my mouth because I don't, I don't know if it's I don't believe it or I don't want to believe it.

Like there's a part of me still, even after doing this work for 10 years and me and my mother being no contact for all of those years, that there's this part of me. It's not, I don't think is that I wish that she was different. But my mind wants to hold on to memories of us in a good place. so I can use them of evidence that I was loved. So I can use them as a benchmark for care. And letting myself come out of that and not trying to make something be what is not as hard as fuck. Because then it's like if I don't have those pockets of moments, it's like, what do I have. And should I torture myself? You know, should I really torture myself by obliterating

these ideas I had around us ever having a genuinely loving fucking relationship? And I know that we didn't. But I like to hold on to those. I like to pretend, you know, it feels good to be able to say it to myself, right? But I also think that it might be hindering me because it's very important that I see things as they are because if I can't see her as she is, and that's not from a judgmental standpoint, but if I can't clearly see and assess my lived experience, I can't see myself, clearly and honestly. And I will always think I have a backdoor to create another reality, which is really disassociating me from the body I'm in now, the life I'm in now, the present moment that I'm in now. So we're going to rip the Band-Aid off in today's episode. And the question

that we are asking ourselves is, what if the relationship you thought was closeness was actually something else? Right. And I think that it's funny because I, you know, have people come and talk to me, send me messages, and they say, I didn't know I had a mother wound. I thought me and my mother were close. We talk all the time. They may even. live together, you know, they take trips together, they plan things, they go shopping, they're girlfriends. And then they listen to the episodes and they start to resonate with some of the things that I'm saying. And then they're like, oh shit, I do have a mother wound. And in the back of their mind, in the back of our minds, we know that something is off,

but we think we can be a good enough person, a good enough daughter, a good enough friend to fix it. That is just if we just keep tweaking it, that it'll be okay, right? That we can, I don't even say, we're not even thinking we can repair it. But yeah, we can fix it. So this looks like, you know, talking every day. me and my mama used to talk every day. I would get up in the morning, brush my teeth, wash my face,

be fixed my breakfast, and we're on the phone. I'm telling her everything that's going on in my life. We're just chopping it up. We're talking about nonsense. But I realized I had this urge to, like, really, I think it was an obligation. It was this impulse that I had to prove that I was her friend, that I had to prove we were close. So I had to tell her everything.

I had to, I just had to expose myself to her at every moment. This is what I'm doing. And we're going here and this is that. And part of me probably was happy to have her to talk to. But I also can remember if I didn't want to talk and I didn't want to call her, just maybe I'm just tired. You know, something like talking to anybody that I would feel guilty. And it's like, no, go ahead and call her because you don't want her to think some type of way.

I'm like, why would a daughter think her mother is going to think about her in some type of way if she doesn't call her one time? You know what I mean? But hearing it now, the shit sounds crazy. But back then, it was normal. And it drove me and I followed it till I hit a brick wall. I used to always say that she's my best friend. I was so happy to tell people that my mother was my best friend because we talk all the time. And we're going to get them.

We're going to Steinmark and we're going to take a trip over to Ross. And we're going to ride around and we're going to go to the thrift store. And all these things are fun. And we did have a good time. But when I look back, we were engaging in activities. I was doing things that. were her things. We never did the things that were what I like to do. I didn't even bring up what I liked to do. I was so indoctrinated so much of the good daughter that I knew not to even

unpack parts of myself around her because it would make her uncomfortable. We wouldn't have peace she wouldn't support me but that didn't matter she was my best friend so we're going to do however we can find the fun where she's happy with me then that's what we're going to do right um and it makes me feel like how can i when i look back at that i'm like if you thought your mother was your best friend and this is like off topic I see now why I picked the friends that I did when I was younger. And I was like so ride or die for them. But it was the same thing.

It was all about them, all about what they liked, all about what they wanted, all about what they wanted to talk about. And I never forced the issue, which you should never have to force the issue. That's what's crazy. It's like in my, like, do you hear me talking right now? I was like, oh, I didn't force the issue to bring up things I like. To me, that was me being a good friend and me wanting to have friends. And that's why it's really a slippery slope with relationships when you have a relationship with your mother where things seem like they're good. You know, they're not perfect, but they're cool. And we accept that. And then we say, well, I can't really be myself with her. but when I go out in the world in these other directions and these other spaces with other people, I'll be myself there.

But when I come back here, I'll be her daughter because that's my duty and that's my obligation. And that's what makes her happy. Like that is, it's like what I owe and it's like a game we play. And we think that it's not harmful, but it's extremely harmful to our psyche because we are micro dosing self abandonment. We are little by little pinching pieces of ourselves off in order to stay connected to someone who cannot see us or recognize us. So we're trying to be something they can see and they can recognize.

And then we get to a point where we don't even see or recognize ourselves. And then what? And, you know, it's just, it's so freaking, it's so crazy. And, yeah, that shit is wild. There's no shortcut for saving time. But saving money is simple. Just combine your car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct and save. Get a quote at bellairdirect.com.

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We've played a lot of iconic characters over the years, but today we're showing up as ourselves to tell you about Podlandia, AEO rewatch, our brand new podcast. Each week, we'll revisit an episode of Portlandia from the very beginning, breaking down the sketches, exploring the backstories of our most iconic characters, revisiting the Portland locations you know and love, and opening up about our creative process. How did any of this get made? Why do we think that was a good idea? We're ready to talk about it. And we'll also be joined by the people who helped to bring it all to life. guest stars, collaborators and friends, including director Jonathan Chrysall, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more. Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song, a melody.

Well, I thought he was going to write. I thought you were all going to write a song for you. I remember you thinking that. Listen to Podlandia. Ayo rewatch on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. Every week, the news gets worse. The world gets crazier,

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So join Yamanika each episode as she answers one question. Who's the problem? I'm Yamanika, and I'm out. Listen to you're the problem with Yamanika on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Not all mother wounds come from distance. some can come from a lack of separation because in actuality what me and my mother had was emmeshment and I haven't used this term in a while but I used to always talk about your energetic and

emotional umbilical cord like the ways in which we as black daughters are connected to our mothers energetically um and we're getting our nourishy from them, right? We don't have a sense of our own identity and we are still, we have chosen and we have been raised to identify with a version of us that is only an extension of her, her wants, her needs, her fears, her desires, her dreams, her projections of the world. how she sees ourselves, how she sees herself. We take all of that on in the world in order to stay connected to her. And so we never have our own sense of self. We don't have autonomy. That's what the black mother wound is. You don't have the autonomy even when you think y'all are

close. It's so interesting. Like to grow up, it's like, you know, they say, The adults say, I'm not one of your little friends. I'm not one of your little friends. And then you grow up and it's like, oh, yeah, we're best friends. Me and my mom are best friends. And there's some of y'all out here where that is. That's what you have. I'm not saying it's not.

But I want you to ask yourself, is it genuine closeness? Or is it emmeshment, right? And emmeshment makes you feel guilty for being yourself. Em meshment makes you feel like you are betraying your mother if you show up in your full authenticity. And that's where codependence comes in, right? Because we're trying to, because we've done this all our lives. Regulate our mother's emotions through our behavior. right? We know that if she's happy, she'll shine that light on us. And that's all we want. We just

want to feel the warm, loving light of her affection, her attention, her approval. And so we, we shift ourselves and we put ourselves actually in a very dark place to do that. So then when she shines the light on us, it really never gets to be bright because we've dimmed ourselves so much, but we're so used to it that it's like, okay, that's, I'm happy to have that. I'm happy to have any part of that, right? And so that's how emmeshement really plays a role in mother-daughter relationships and mother-son relationships. That emmeshment, when your mother, our mothers think that we are an extension of them and that there is a payback owed to them for whatever they did as parents for us, it creates a bond that is really toxic. And it's almost like a vampire. It's like our life force,

our youth, our passion, our dreams, our confidence is being siphoned off so we can maintain a relationship with the most important person in our lives, with the most important person ever. It's like, that's our priority to keep a relationship with her because if we do that, then we're good people. that is the evidence. That's the trophy that I'm good is that me and my mother are close. But are you really, are you really close, right? Do you feel guilty when you're making decisions that your mother disagrees with? Do you need her approval before major life decisions?

Do you feel responsible for her emotions? and do you have difficulty forming opinions that differ from hers? Those are some questions I want you to ask yourself to be able to come to some clear, honest conclusions about is it closeness or is it emmeshment? And the fucked up part that really pushes me off is emmeshment is marketed to black, children as respect. It's not marketed as something toxic or abusive. It's really marketed as love and respect. If you love and respect your mother, then you will want her to agree with your decisions. You don't want her to be upset with you. If you really love and, you know, care about

your mother, then you want your opinions to be in alignment with hers because that shows. that she raised you right. See, when you have an opinion that's different from your mothers, it is like a slap in the face because what you're saying is you're wrong. That's what they hear. And it's like, oh, you have found fault with me. That's not allowed. You're not allowed to find fault with me because I gave everything to you. Not realizing everybody makes mistakes. But they, you know, and I don't want to say to their defense, but in a way to their defense, being a mother is about you doing it right the first time, right? And buying into that leaves them in a space where they have objectified themselves as the queen mother of all. And if you don't agree with their policies and practices, it is a personal blow. to their identity because their identity as your mother is that I make all the right choices. And if they feel like they don't, then they feel like they failed.

And that's a pressure that has been put on mothers. That's definitely not put on fathers. But then it gets passed down for the kids to continue to uplift, uh, uplift that lie. Right. And I just think that it's really important that. that even when you're doing this in ways that seem very harmless,

it's like, girl, I just go over there on Sundays and just let her say what she's going to say. Child, just eat my dinner and get my stuff and go home. I don't even start anything with her. That is still abandonment. You know, imagine if you had a child. Y'all know I love using examples like this. Imagine you had a little girl and you tell the little girl, you're just going to go over to Uncle Johnny's house on Sunday.

Mondays for a little while. He's just going, you know, rub your shoulder a little bit, say a little funny stuff, wink his eye at you, and then you can come home. Don't say nothing. And then it's fine, child. That's what's fucking happening. Because even though it's once a week or once a month or only on holidays, you are teaching yourself how to accept abuse and how to rationalize it, how to accept being.

not seen how to be dehumanized and say well you know it's my mother I don't want to get into it you know I don't want to make a big thing because next thing you know she's going to call everybody and have them on my phone and then and you in essence it's like quietly being bullied and you also will then try to fix it with closeness mom I'm going to come get you tomorrow and take you to Costco. We're going to go get some stuff. I'm going to take, you know, your birthday's coming. I'm going to do this for you to now what you think you're doing is repairing by giving this closeness, but actually what you're doing is rewarding bad motherfucking behavior. Because she is behaving in a way that is disrespectful, is not loving. And then you come around and say,

I'm going to reward that behavior. I'm going to let you do what you want to do and talk to me how you want to talk to me. Then I'm going to come pick you up and drive you all around town on Tuesday. So we can fix it and laugh and Kiki and have another memory overlay that one. So you just want to put perfume on shit and then call it closeness. Yeah. That's not what we're going to keep doing. The question that I have here is can you make a major life decision without worrying about how your mother will feel about it?

it. Can you do it? Right? And then if you're somebody who you're saying, you're not in contact with your mother anymore so you don't go through this, I want you to think about how you show up like this with other relationships. Could be a romantic relationship, your platonic friend relationships, other family members, where you're still playing this role of we're close, but y'all ain't really close because they don't really fuck with you like that. You know what I'm saying? And what this also creates is a parentification between you and your parent because they're behaving in an emotionally immature way, which then forces you to act in a mature emotional way. And then also while you're doing that, you're looking up to them as the parent, but you're acting as the parent. That's parent

and that shit is backwards. And it creates this dynamic of win-win for her because she can behave any way she wants to and still get treated like a baby. And it's a lose-lose for you because you're taking and accepting treatment that is less than loving, disrespectful, toxic, abusive, and you've got to swallow it and come back around

and be the bigger person. And you still think, y'all were close. I still thought that we were fucking close. And I think I might be disassociating a bit, even as I'm talking about this, because my mind will not let me feel the pain of this. But I know it's painful because it's like,

I can't even deal with that right now. You know, so what the fuck did we ever have? what did we have? We have these memories and I think about them and I'm like, if I would have said like my truth in any of those moments, would that memory have been ruined if I would have shown up at myself? If I would have asked for honesty, if I would have asked for real care,

if I would have asked for real support. What would that moment have turned into? And I already know the answer. And I would have rather had the memory than have the truth. and now I have them both and it's it's not worth it. But it was all I knew. And I think that's the case for, you know, for a lot of us. And what happens when you become that parentified child, which happens early on?

That thing's happened. This whole closeness, this air quote closeness for people listening, it starts so early on. because that is your mission for y'all to be close right so i was the person my mother could vent to she worked at the prison and she could come home and talk about those people all day long and i would listen and i would give her advice and give her counsel and you should do this and do that and then i would say hey there's a field trip tomorrow i clean my room i clean the kitchen um i'm you know have all my i'm still on a row all my grades are where they need to be i've done everything i've folded clothes can I go on the field trip tomorrow? No. All of a sudden now we're not friends. You can tell me

everything you got going on and I'm there for you and I'm a understanding of you and I'm a high school student. I want to go on the field trip. And I've done everything I'm supposed to do, but the answer is still motherfucker no for me. And we get used to that closeness being one way. It's very one-sided. It's very one-sided. Okay. Um, yeah. When we, we, you know, she vince to us, we're expected to comfort her, right? Whenever she's down, we show up for her. We don't want to prove we're a good friend. But when we need it back, it's not, we don't get it back the same way. Because then she's going to point out all the things we did wrong and why it's our fault or, you know, you want too much anyway. And I think

that because we grew up with that, we don't ever realize. how fucking mean it is. I think that's the part that hurts. It's like I can feel it. How fucking mean it is for no fucking reason. How mean it is. So what I want you all to think about today is being close to your mother doesn't automatically mean the relationship is healthy.

And I'm not trying to throw salt on a healthy relationship. I just want you to consider this. Love and enmeshment can exist. at the same time. You can love them and still have a meshment with them. You can love your mother and still need boundaries. You can have both of those. Real relationships are a two-sided coin. If the relationship only got one side, that ain't a real relationship. And healing is about developing a stronger relationship with yourself, not a stronger relationship with your mother. I'm not trying to tell you to go somewhere and fix your mother and fix the relationship with your

mother so it's better and it actually is healthy because that probably won't happen if it hasn't already happened. I want you to focus on building a better relationship with yourself. So when you go in those situations, you can advocate for yourself. Okay. I think that is what is super duper important. All right. That's what I have for y'all today. I love you deeply. Please share this episode with someone that you think needs it. Like, share and comment. If you're watching this on YouTube, please give us five stars. If you're listening on the audio, if you're interested in coming to see me live in Charlotte in July,

click the link in the show notes so you can get your ticket. We're still doing Early Bird. If you're interested in working with me in a group setting, click the link and join the wait list for Resolve. So you can find out when that is coming back out. I love you guys. Don't let anybody play in your face. Ha ha. See you later. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Black Mother Wound podcast.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and make sure you comment, subscribe, and rate the show. You can keep the conversation going over on IG at Black Mother Wound and click the link in the show notes to download the free Mother Wound healing guide. See you next week. On Raiders of the Lost podcast, we explore cinema like no one else, including huge interviews with stars like Ryan Gosling on Project Hail Mary. It was like the Jaws Shark. Didn't always work, came with its own problems. That's what made it great. The cast of obsession.

On set, there was so much magic happening with each scene we were putting together. Deep dives into classics like 2001 of Space Odyssey or Fight Club, plus weekly episodes on all industry. News. Listen to Raiders of the Lost podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more, follow at Raiders of the Lost podcast and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. The Dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching Podlandia, AEO rewatch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together, breaking down sketches, going deep on our icon. conic characters and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made. And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life. Guestr,

stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Chrysall, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more. Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song. Well, I thought you were all going to write a song. I remember you thinking that. Listen to Podlandia, AEO, Rewatch on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you get your podcast. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up y'all? It's your girl, Sam J. And we're the host of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together and IHeart Women's Sports.

We're breaking down the biggest headlines. Naomi Osaka, showing out. Shout out to you, Naomi. The viral moments. I've been obsessed with Kashan Rock's boxing journey. She looks good. Her combos are swift. And the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports.

Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports. On the Iheart radio app. Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast, Disgraceland, I tell the stories behind music's biggest names, like how the story of the foo fighters isn't just about music. It's about grief, shock, and the moment everything changed.

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