The Breakfast Club - The Professional Homegirl Podcast: My Ex Was A Serial Killer

Episode Date: October 27, 2024

The Black Effect Presents... The Professional Homegirl Podcast! In this powerful episode of The Professional Homegirl Podcast, Eboné’s guest, a former CIA agent, reveals her shocking story of discovering that her ex-fiancé was a serial killer. After meeting him on a dating app, she became entangled in a nightmare that led to the devastating loss of her son. Eboné’s guest opens up about the profound failures of the justice system, the emotional toll of seeking the truth, and her ongoing struggle with forgiveness. In an incredibly candid discussion, she also reflects on whether her child should have been born, grappling with the complexities of this painful question. This harrowing experience ultimately led her to choose to become a single mom, embracing this path as a means of reclaiming control and safety in her life. Beyond her personal trauma, she explores the broader societal pressures placed on women, including the relentless expectation to settle down, prioritize relationships over personal safety, and trust partners despite red flags. She discusses how these pressures can lead women to ignore warning signs, endangering their well-being and that of their children. Donate Turkey HERE Connect with Eboné: Rep Your City Shirt: Shop Now Read Eboné's Love Letters: www.theyalltheone.com  Website: www.thephgpodcast.com Instagram: @theprofessionalhomegirl & @thephgpodcast TikTok & Twitter: @theprofessionalhomegirl  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@theprofessionalhomegirl Email: [e-mail] Shop PHG: https://www.thephgpodcast.com/shopSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome, one and all, to the Professional Homegirl Podcast. Before we begin today's episode, we want to remind you that the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and guests, and are intended for educational and entertaining purposes. In this safe space, no question is off-limits, because you never know how someone's storyline can be your lifeline. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is here to celebrate the diverse voices, stories, and experiences of women of color, providing a platform for authentic and empowering conversations. There will be some kicking, some tears, but most importantly, a reminder that tough times don't last, but professional homegirls do. Enjoy the show. Hey professional homegirls, it's your girl Ebony here and I hope, okay, I hope all is cute because y'all know we love some cuteness now, okay? Now before we dive into this week's episode,

let's take a moment for a little bit of housekeeping. So y'all, I am super excited to share that we are gearing up for the very first annual The Professional Homegirl Turkey Drive. This has been a dream of mine for many years, and I am confident that with your support, this year would be a tremendous success. Our goal is to feed 100 families in Memphis, and I need your help, professional homegirls, to make it happen. As professional homegirls, not only are we known for our je ne sais quoi,

because y'all know we the baddest and the bestest, but we're also known for our generosity and compassion. If you're able, please click the donate link in the show notes below to contribute. Remember, every donation, no matter how small, will go directly to providing turkeys for families in need. Now let's come together to make a meaningful impact this holiday season and show our community the power of kindness and support. Thank you all in advance for your generosity. Also, I received a love letter from our professional homegirl, Dana, and it reads, I just found your podcast.

I am a ruptured brain aneurysm survivor and had to respond. I just survived one in April and this podcast is what I needed. Crazy good how God helps you find what it is that you need. Wanted to reach out to both of you and thank you for your words, generosity, and wisdom. We as women need this support so much. Look forward to listening to more. So shout out to our professional homegirl, Dana. Y'all, I really love when y'all send me love letters. So please continue to email me at hello at the psgpodcast.com. Also, we have a lot of listeners here. So don't forget to follow me on all social media platforms at thepsgpodcast.com. Also, we have a lot of listeners here, so don't forget to follow me on all social media platforms at The Professional Homegirl and at The PSG Podcast. Hold me down,

don't hold me up. Now, for this week's episode, my guest's life took a dramatic turn when she met her ex on a dating app. Despite a nagging sense that something was wrong, societal pressures led her to stay in this relationship. The situation became so tragic when she discovered that not only was her ex a serial killer, but he also took the life of their son, Prince. In this episode, my guests will reveal the painful details of her journey, including her ex-conviction, currently serving life without parole. We'll also cover her experience as a single mother by choice following this devastating loss and the advice she hopes to pass on to her daughters. We'll discuss how this experience reshaped her views on family courts, trust and forgiveness, and how societal expectations influence her choices. Y'all get ready because My Ex Was a Serial Killer starts

now. So to my guests, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for having me. Of course. How are you doing? How are you feeling? Feeling good. The struggle is real. It's a Thursday. Yes. We were just talking about what I was telling her. I think they're putting something in the air because I was super tired. And then she was telling me about it's the first week of school. So she's been super busy with her kids. Yeah.

I have their Intuit separate campuses this year. So I feel like I'm being stretched in two separate directions so it's been a struggle yeah that's so hard to get a drink y'all because she looked like she over it yes well how was your vacation uh it was good it was really good um we go to costa you've've been going to Costa Rica for like three years now as a family at the end of the summer. And it's just like always, it's like my happy place because it's such a chill environment. And it's like a place where you can sort of come off the stress of the United States. And so it's always a really good recharge. Yeah, I love Costa Rica.

What makes you go there every year like i mean i first went it was like 2021 right after things what after they had really just like reopened the border after covid and um i just yeah i just fell in love with it like it's just so laid back and a really kid-friendly place and so uh then i found a summer camp there that that my kids can go to and so they go to camp and usually so you guys are local well i don't know about all that but uh it's a great um it's a great like language camp that they go to for a couple weeks in the summer and it allows me to like still work for part of the trip so I don't have to take off the whole time yeah and they have fun and we all surf

and do just like you know just really fun vacation-y type stuff so yeah and the food there is really good y'all so fresh yeah amazing now I was telling you this off air, but when I was reading your book the whole time, I was just like, WTF. So do you ever look back on your life and think to yourself, how did all this happen? I have had those moments for sure, but I try not to be that type of person that's like, oh my gosh, I'm stuck in this victimhood of like all this stuff happening to me. Right. I have learned that, you know, there's just there's scary people out there. And I think this could really happen to anyone.

And for sure, I think I I I was fairly naive when I met him. So I think, yeah, there's definitely like risk factors that I had that I probably, that I, that at least for me as a parent, I'm trying to teach my daughters recognize those sorts of things so that they do not repeat the same mistakes that I made. But yeah, I mean, I don't necessarily feel that I'm like highly unlucky or, you know, I have, cause I, cause I don't actually feel that way. I think I am very fortunate and I've had a lot of amazing blessings in my life. Um, but I, you know, I just think, yeah, I, I am a person who had a terrible tragedy happen to me, but I think that, you know, a lot of people live through really terrible things. So I don't

necessarily think that. Yeah, I don't I try not to dwell too much on like, oh, my gosh, this happened to me because I also don't want it to be like a defining moment in my life. Right. You know, that's one of my next question about after all these years, have there been any misconceptions about your story that you would like to address? And one of the things that I felt like is very relatable is that this can happen to anyone. Yeah. I think there is a lot of misconception. I think there's, it's actually psychologically protecting to hear about tragedies like this,

you know, hear about women and sometimes men too, who fall in love with psychopaths and have horrible things happen to them. It's, it's protective to think that to kind of take this mentality of like, oh, they must've been a bad person themselves, or it must be something wrong with him that they, that they didn't pick up on this. Right. Right. And I think a lot of people think that way because it helps them feel safe walking through the world thinking like that could never happen to me. And I think we see like a similar mentality with like school shootings, for example, people know that the United States is very dangerous. They know that we have this, this obsession with violence. And yet

every single time it happens, they're like, oh my gosh gosh i can't believe this happened to me and i'm like really like can't right um so i think it's just i mean i think we have to sort of wake up as a culture and realize like you are not immune to this and typically people who are dangerous and scary like this they're not going to go pick somebody else who's also dangerous and scary dangerous and. They're going to pick somebody who is caring, who is empathic. Just a good person. And a good person, right? They're going to come after good people because why would they go after someone as evil as they are? They don't want to get themselves into it, right?

Right. So I do think that there is a common misconception or I don't even know if it's a misconception or really just, I think it's this protective mechanism people have to try and focus on what the person did to get themselves in that situation instead of focusing on what is the society we're doing that is creating these people. Yeah. You know, you also make another good point because my cousin, he thinks I'm crazy, but I was like, I think it's time that we start teaching my niece how to survive. God forbid if there's a school shooting, because there was just a school shooting, what, a day or two ago in Atlanta? And he was like, well, I don't want to put fear on her.

I say, yeah, but I also want her to be prepared, unfortunately. You want them to survive. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you you know i think that we also need to start talking about toxic masculinity we need to start talking about the culture of violence that we have in this country yeah just today at my daughter's school there was a bunch of little boys that were taking off their shirts and wrestling on the ground right on school grounds right and the parents were standing there laughing about it and i was mortified i was like this is not funny and they're like it's like lord of the flies and i'm like did you ever read lord of the flies like lord of the flies was literally about like the moral depravity that happens without like

parental oversight right right and i'm thinking to myself i'm like why would you be laughing about this about your kids sitting here fighting on school grounds with their shirts off in the middle of the day? And so I think about these things and I'm like, I think one of the misconceptions in society is that we don't like to hold ourselves accountable for the culture that we're creating. And then when it happens to us, we're like, oh my God, I can't believe this. Like we're all contributing to it, right? Every single parent who was sitting there looking at that and not saying anything about it. And even my five-year-old, I asked her, I said, you know, did any of the girls take off their shirts and start fighting? And she looked at me like I was crazy. And she's like, no mama, they know we can't, like,

we know we can't get away with that. And I'm like, you know, at five years old, we have already internalized here that women cannot get away with or, you know, it's like somehow okay for men to act a certain way. And so it's like, it's all fun and games until those little boys become men who assault and rape people. And we all act like we don't know where it came from. It's all fun and games until those little boys become men who assault and rape people. And we all act like we don't know where it came from. It's like, I know where it came from. It came from the playground. Yeah.

We're sitting around watching and not doing anything about it. You know, I have a whole section about this, but the other person that was also the culprit in your story, I felt like, was society. Yeah. I mean, it's not just, so I tell people a lot that, you know, people are like, oh, well, are you angry at your ex? Or like, you know, do you feel like justice was served? And I think that the thing I tried to get across in my book was like, my son's father is not the demon in the story, right? Like to me, yeah, it's not that he's not responsible for what he did. He absolutely is. And he's a horrible person who deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his life. However, the demon in my story is the system. Like literally

injustice system, right? Because this man was enabled for over a decade and yeah son wasn't even the first person he killed so we can look at the situation and be like okay he did this but the thing that really keeps me up at night is that the people who enabled him are so walking the streets making the same mistakes having not learned from what happened still protecting the law exactly what was your life like before you met prince father uh because i feel like you was lit like you had a good job you was a cia agent you had your own condo great job uh i was over educated yeah i came from you know a a good family uh you know i think i i think like if i were just to describe me i was very naive you know um and i was taught that you don't judge a book by its cover you know that's not what i'm teaching my kids i'm going to teach my kids if

you have a weird feeling in your gut about wasted books or acts you know it's okay to keep it moving and that's not being mean that's being self-protective um and i think yeah like i think um there was somebody who right after my son died had the nerve to say well you know mother theresa never falls for saddam Hussein. And I think the whole idea was she was trying to say, oh, there must be something wrong with me because I felt. And I was like, actually, Mother Teresa is the kind of person who does fall for Saddam Hussein because that type of person is going to try to see the good in everybody. Right. Yeah. And so I'm like, that's your flaw. Like your logic is flawed. Now, can you share how you first met Prince's father? And what were your initial impressions of him?

Because when I was reading it, I was like, come on now. Come on now. I know, right? I mean, okay, I think I say this in the book. Like, society is a traitorous bitch. Right. Society is a traitorous bee. No, we gonna curse.

Because the whole time I was like, girl, like is trash like oh he was terrible he was terrible he's all the crazy i think i think that you know i i won't lie i was not in the best place when i met him i was you know i had just returned from serving. And anyone who has been in sort of like a U.S. government overseas, state department, military, they're all sort of like similar in this way. People get married very young. And it's typically, I was stationed in a place where everyone was married. It was pretty much just like me and the really young Marines that weren't. And I felt like I had just spent years with people being like, why are you still single? Like, what's wrong with you?

Why are you still single? Mind you, I was still in my 20s. So it's not like I was, you know, like pushing 50 or anything. Right. Single. I was super young. And so when I came back, I think that was weighing on me. I felt like I was running out of time, even though that sounds silly now. In my early 40s, I'm like,

okay, this is ridiculous. I had time. But that's what society, that's how it would make you feel. Yeah. And I felt like I was rushed. And I remember it you know, it was, it really was a perfect storm. Like we had just had a snowmageddon in Washington, DC. I was just starting to sort of try to meet people. And at the time, internet dating was not that popular. I mean, everybody was doing it, but nobody was willing to admit that they were doing it. Right. And, um, but there was really, it was really hard to organically meet people similar to how it is now, really, right? Yeah. Because I wasn't in school anymore.

I didn't want to date anyone that I had worked with, right? Been there, done that, didn't want to do it again. Right. And I was kind of craving a relationship with somebody who was not in my circle. I was like, I want someone out of my circle. Yeah. In hindsight, I'm like, there is safety and dating someone who like you at least can vet through friends, but that's a whole other thing. Right. And so another mistake I think I made was that because it was snowing outside and we couldn't actually leave, we had had several phone conversations and, you know,

you can't really catch a vibe for someone over the phone. Like you're hearing them and like, he was a great storyteller. And so we spent several times on the phone. And by the time we met up in person, I kind of had this like false sense of loyalty where I was like, Oh, I feel like I have to see this through because we had such a good conversation. And again, going back to like, you know, the first time I saw him,

he did not look like his pictures. And I had a feeling in the pit of my stomach. Like, I remember talking to my friend. I was like, Lisa, he doesn't look like the pictures. And Lisa's like, you got to go. Go. Just leave. And I was like, I can't leave.

That's mean. And, you know, in hindsight, I'm like, I should have left, right? I should have just left. Yeah. But I didn't because I had this feeling of like, oh, well, that's really mean to like, look at someone and be like, oh, I don't want to sit and have coffee with you because you like look a certain way, you know? Yeah. But realistically, like when you're dating, if you think someone's not your jam, like it's not mean you could just be like, okay, like, you catfished me, right? Like, these pictures are not like. Right.

I mean, it looks like him. It just looked like he was much older. And just there was something about his vibe that was off. I was like, it just doesn't. Something's not. The way he dressed. The way you described him. The way he dressed.

Something was off, right? But I think the hard part in, like like anyone who's dealt with a psychopath and I don't even say narcissistic personality because I feel like there is a difference between psychopath and somebody who's even just on the spectrum. But people like this have a tendency, you know, once they sort of have you in their grasp, they can be so charming that it almost just makes you forget like you just see a different person. Right. Definitely love bomb you. that it almost just makes you forget, like you just see a different person, right? He definitely loved Bond U. Oh, he loved Bond U, but he also, you know, it wasn't just me. Like he had people working for him. He didn't pay his lawyer more than $600 the whole year. We were like, we were in that whole fight.

I spent over $150,000 in 15 months trying to protect my son and he paid $600. And it wasn't because like you know she was doing this pro bono like she she i think she actually fell for him like i think they was messing around with each other it you know i i could not come right out and say what i thought because you're not supposed to do that in books you know you're not supposed to well you're gonna do it on here i didn't want to be sued right. There was a lot of stuff like even just the police. It's like I I will never know what exactly motivated these people to continue to protect him. You know, I have theories, of course.

You know, like I think like I have heard rumors that there was something that he had on the police. Right. That would certainly make sense. Given all the things that they did. Like, that would make sense. Right. It wasn't ever proven, no. But it just doesn't. There's no logical explanation to why they behaved the way that they behaved and knowing what i know from other police officers who were in that

department um mostly female officers who were basically whistleblowing on them like there was just some shady shit going on yeah i i don't know right like but see that's to me like those people are the demon in my story because they're still out there and they never had to they never had their day in court right um and so that to me is scarier because he didn't act alone you know like he just one single person could not have carried out the the death and destruction that he perpetrated for over a decade if it hadn't been for people helping him yeah now i will say this y'all because i don't want y'all to think that my guest was just all naive because my guest over here looking like a young vanessa williams in her

prime oh i appreciate that yes so i don't want y'all to think like oh she ugly this and they're like no like this can really happen to anybody yeah Yeah. So with that being said, but also I'm so surprised that you said that you were so naive because being that your dad is from the South and he's like a black man. Yeah. Like he taught you how to be tough. So I'm surprised that you feel like. See, I mean, even I think like I think there there there is a way. And I describe this in one of my opening scenes in the book like my dad had this way about him where he raised us as though we're growing up in the 60s in Mississippi

right and like we obviously weren't right and I think that you know part of the reason I put that in the book is I think that there is a there's probably a deeper discussion that needs to be had about generational trauma right a lot of people would read that and be like, Oh my gosh, it was abusive. I don't, I didn't put that in there to say that I put that. Oh,

I didn't get that from them, but I'm also from the South too. So exactly. And that's the thing. And it's interesting because black people and white people have had completely different responses to that. Right. But the,

what I was trying to explain is there was a way. Like I was raised that when you are in danger you don't flip out you get out composure right yeah you have a certain level of composure and I think that some of that is remnants of generational trauma because like we had to be a certain way you know that's what we teach our kids um but I think that the interesting way that it played out in my story is that when I was in situations where I had to like talk to the police about what was happening they had an expectation of a way that I should be acting based on what I was saying and I wasn't acting the way they expected right now I didn't deal with black officers right all of them were white officers and perhaps they just didn't realize they didn't deal with black officers, right? All of them were white officers, and perhaps they just didn't realize, they didn't understand what they were seeing, right? Or there was something else going on, possibly. if you're prepared for it, I think there's still a certain level of naivete that you experience.

Like, you know, I think many Black people or most Black people grow up knowing that like police brutality is a possibility, but there's a difference between like thinking you're prepared for it and then how you act when it actually happens, right? And so I think we also, in order to survive, we sort of have to live in this like, we just, we have to have some of this, like, cognitive dissonance between, like, what we know could happen and, like, really feeling like it's going to happen. And so even though, I mean, part of being trained at the CIA is, like, you're trained to be aware, but you can't live with the level of hypervigilance every single day, right? And so when you're on US soil and you're feeling comfortable

and you're feeling at home, you're not gonna be living with that sense of hypervigilance. And you're not going to expect, like, I think that we all take for granted, like when someone tells you something about themselves and you're dating, like you're not going to be like oh i'm going to just like run his social security number right right and we also have to realize like back in 2010 2011 like even just

googling somebody wasn't all that yeah right you know right now it's like you mean times have changed times have definitely changed and like like, I did Google him. There was nothing there. Right. He did change his name. Right. So I didn't have his real name. But I think even if I had had his real name, like the police, all the other things that he had been involved in, they had never released his name publicly. So like, unless I knew more information about him,

there was nothing, there was nothing to find. Right. Right. And even ultimately, when I hired the private investigator, by that point, I had had his social security number just based on paperwork we had filed for my son. And so like, that's not something I would have had, like pre him being born. It's not like he was going to be like, oh, and my social security number is, you know, right. So I think, and I, like, like I said, I mean, I think we just take for granted, like if you see someone who owns their own house and they have car, they have been raising their other son, you know, and presumably they work, like you're not going to just, like, I don't like i don't think anybody would make you gonna take it for face value exactly and like i wasn't

gonna make the assumption that he was living off like social security death benefits from the people he had murdered like yeah that was crazy right and so it's just like it was so completely out of my normal construct of like what happens in the world yeah that you know it's like so yeah like he dressed funny but other than that like there and then and then for someone to present to you like you know everyone's like oh you should meet their family i met people who said they were his family but i thought they were all weird too they were all a little bit strange too but like realistically you know when someone's like i I'm his aunt, I'm his uncle, and then you don't find out until you meet his real aunt and uncle, right? Right.

That these people were not even related to him. You know, it's like, how do you know? It's not like I was doing cheek swabs and, like, DNA tests to see if they were actually related. So, I don't know. It's a mess. Like it's, it's crazy. But I also think that, I think that perhaps to the degree that it happened to me, it doesn't necessarily happen to that degree on a regular basis. But I do think that there are a lot of really problematic people in the world. Yeah. And, you know, I have heard stories of women who get into relationships and the man steals the

money or you know like there's just a lot of really bad people out there and um you know i hooked into a particularly terrible one right but i but i don't think it's as abnormal as people think i think that it's just that people typically like this do not get away for so many years with what he got away with. Do you think there's a lot of serial killers walking amongst us? Because I think a lot of people do some weird shit. I think there are a lot of morally depraved people walking amongst us. And I think there are a lot of people who think that, who if they thought they could get away with it,

it would be a lot worse. They would definitely do it. And I think that people also don't realize that there are many people probably living amongst us who have killed people who have gotten away with it um because if you look at my ex for example like you know i think he probably killed more than three people i think the three i was just about to ask you that right um but he lived in new york for a very long time and and we never found where he came from in New York. I mean, it was like literally he popped up in Virginia.

And so, you know, I suspect he had a whole life there and a whole bunch of dead bodies that nobody ever spoke with him. You know, another thing that I thought was weird was that he shared a bank account with a man. And you've mentioned briefly in your book that y'all spoke about the concept of being bisexual. We spoke, it wasn't that.

Because I'm like, why is he sharing his account with this man? He wanted to be a swinger, but it was interesting because he waited until after I was pregnant to be like, that was part of his lifestyle. I think that, I don't know he calls this man his cousin this man is not related to him at all I don't know what he had on this man or what was going on there but I know why he didn't have a bank account in his name it was because a lot of people were trying to sue him.

He couldn't have any money in his name or else all of the people, all the creditors and everything. You know, he was basically I forget what you call those people. But but like. He wanted to make himself to the point where he could do whatever he wanted to people financially because he had stolen money from people. He had done all sorts of crazy stuff and he just didn't pay a bunch of bills. And so he wanted to make himself basically like Sue proof. Man, I'm surprised. Ain't nobody put him down. I mean, it's, it is, it is fairly amazing. But then if you think about it, like Pete,

there's a reason people like this don't go after bad people. Right. Yeah. Because if you're going to go after somebody who's going to have the same, you know, moral compass as you, obviously, it gets dangerous. One of us ain't going to make it. Right. Right. And so he knew that he was not, you know, he didn't go after people who were going to come after him like that.

Yeah. not you know he didn't he didn't go after people who were going to come after him like that yeah and i also got the sense that you might have felt a responsibility to fix or save the relationship because of societal pressure i mean i think like i because you really tried i was raised in a in a i was raised with christian culture where you know you stay with the father of your child and I think that I certainly spent a considerable amount of time feeling responsible and worrying about my son not having a father I mean the irony is that I'm a single mom by choice now and like chose to have my daughters by myself. Um, I have evolved in some ways, not that I don't think men are important. I absolutely do think men are important. I think that kids need, uh, kids need healthy role models. And I think that society's obsession with children having a mother and a father and it is misguided.

And, you know, you look at like Barack Obama, who was raised by a woman, became president of the United States, clearly did well for himself. You look at Kamala Harris, who like never talks about her dad. I think she mentioned him once, right? There's a reason for that. She turned out just fine so not to say that like you know i i think it's great if if people have both parents in their life but i think that in hindsight i think what i should have realized is that this man was toxic

and uh but but another problem that our society has is that the way our family courts are designed they aren't looking at making sure that healthy parents are attached to kids they're making sure that parents have the the right to be attached to their child regardless of whether or not they're healthy yeah and i and i also think there was part of me that knew that too. So I felt like, you know, maybe if I save him, maybe if I fix him, you know, which is one of the most dangerous things that women do often. I mean, people, I mean, I've seen men do it too, right? Thinking you can change someone or fix someone is just, you know, it's an exercise in futility. Yeah. But you make a good point because I feel like as a single woman with no kids and I do desire to have children and, you know, hopefully

have a good man that can be my husband. I feel like since I'm so focused and trying to do things the, you know, the right way that a lot of people judge me and, you know, sometimes it does get to me because it's like, damn, like all my all my friends are either you know married or they have kids and stuff and I just know that what you water will grow and I water my business so I feel like um when I was reading your story it really resonated with me because I just felt like you just wanted love but yeah I feel like the timing of it society just really just it makes us feel like we're not worthy or we're not woman. A real woman. And that's the thing that's hard about it, you know, because like, even now it's like, I don't want to get married because I have feelings about being financially and legally

connected to someone, but I do want to find a person. I want to feel chosen. I want a partner, right? You're not dating I that's a whole other can of worms yeah no I'm gonna try to get the tea I mean okay like I am dating I am dating in the most casual sense of the word I think that the hard part is I think you have to be I think you have to be open to finding a needle in a haystack I don't necessarily think there's one person for everyone only it's just that like is you have to go through a lot of bad yeah and at this point in my life I'm struggling with time and you know trying to to make the time between like my career and my kids and like all the things i

want to do right it's a lot it's a lot uh that said you know i am hopeful that one day plus the caveat is like i really hate app dating like really really really hate it yeah and i think it killed dating i really do i'm I'm not going to lie. So, I mean, my listeners know this. I joined an online app and I would have never thought at this age that I would be online dating. Like, I hate it. Like, I feel like there is no real connection. I feel like the niggas is weird.

It's horrible. And they can't carry on the conversation. Like, if I have another man text me good morning and that's it. And what you doing? I'm just going to like lose my mind. It's like, I don't know. I'm awake and getting dressed like you have nothing else. I'm texting you.

Right. But then I feel like when I go outside, like men would stare at me, but I feel like they never come up to me. I feel like they intimidated by me. I feel like once they know who I am and like what I do and who I'm affiliated with, I got to make sure that they have good intentions. Like, I just feel like it's just so fucking ghetto. I think the hardest part, though, and this is why I think app dating and Internet dating ruined dating, is that before it existed, people had to talk to each other. Right. each other right and so we've gotten so accustomed to like being trolls behind screens and like not taking you know just like not taking chances and going up to people and saying hello

and it it's hard because you know unless you're in a social setting with someone like work you know your kid's school whatever places that you don't necessarily like want to be dating. Cause if it doesn't go well, you're sort of, it gets weird and it gets all weird. And so I, I, I don't know how to, I don't, I don't really know how to put myself out there at this age, you know, with kids and with a career and like, you know, not all the time in the world, unless I go on apps and then the apps are just full of just shenanigans, you know? And so I, every once in a while, I like dip my toe in the water and then I'm just like, I'm dipping right back out. Right. Right, right, right. Right. Now I feel like you don't, I feel like after reading your story, you don't believe in an abortion.

But I feel like you was kind of hesitant once you found out that you was pregnant. I didn't believe in an abortion. I don't, I'm very much pro-choice. Okay. I think that for me, and I don't know whether I put this in my book. I can't remember whether or not I mentioned it. I had had one already. Oh, no, you didn't put that in your book.

So the first time, my first time was not consensual. And it resulted in a pregnancy. And I remember even back then, and I was pretty young. I mean, I was out of college, but still pretty young. I remember thinking to myself, like, you know, I'm, I am pro-choice, but I also like love kids and feel very responsible, you know, for like all of my actions. Right. Right. responsible you know for like all of my actions right right when i had it when i when i had the non-consensual encounter when i was when i was raped i also was wise enough to know that like

i i was like i i cannot i do not think i can bring a child into this world knowing how it how it happened and also like potentially continuously being connected to this person that did this thing. And so, uh, after that, you know, when, when I got pregnant with Prince, uh, I guess in my head, I was like, this is not the same situation. I'm old enough and I have, you know, a fairly stable career. Like I, I can take care of this child. And like, I wasn't, I wasn't considering that I wouldn't end up with his dad. Like at that point I was like, okay, it, it felt to me like it would be irresponsible to make that decision. Right. In hindsight, I, I should have, right in hindsight I I should have right like I love my son and I'm and I'm grateful that I got to to know him for the 15 months that I got to know him

but I think realistically like if I had had the option I never would have wanted him to have to go through what he went through yeah so but but I but, but I, I, you know, it's like hindsight's 2020, right? Like, and I think that, you know, part of not making the decision to have an abortion was probably also somewhat trauma-based. Yeah. I was listening to one of your interviews from a different show and you said that your son shouldn't have not been born. And I was like, wow, like that was real. I mean, it's sad, right? And like I say that just being a complete realist.

I don't think he should have ever been conceived. Like I should never have met his dad. And you didn't even enjoy the sex with him. Exactly. I feel like I didn't get anything good out of him. I doing here no it was terrible it was just it was a terrible situation and i think like i mean if you've if you watch the like uh the movie get out it was like i was in the sunken place i just yeah there's no other way to describe it better than like being completely in a sunken place um and i think it like, I think it's hard. It's really hard to describe what it feels like to be in an abusive

relationship. You haven't been in one. Cause I think people are often like, I, I can't stand when people are like, well, you should just left. Right. Well, that's like really sweet. I'm like, you know, special snowflake. Supportive.

Right. That's possible. Like, or that's, you know, it's like, you know, special snowflake of being supportive. Right. That's possible. Like, or that's, you know, it's like by the time someone shows that side of them, it's too late, you know, like just leaving. It's like, yeah, the woman before me tried to just leave and she's dead. Like, yeah, you mean, I think it's all, it's also really easy for people to make assumptions that, you know, just because of the way someone looks or whatever, that like you're completely secure. Right. Because I wasn't. Yeah. So what was the turning point when things started to go wrong? And, you know, I really just started, I felt like I was chasing the person that I thought he was in the beginning.

And that person was not who he was. And so I was constantly trying to bring that person back. Yeah. And I remember there was this moment where we were in like a deposition during our court case. And he looked at me and it was like this moment where he was like trying to get empathy. And I almost threw up on him. I was like, how could you try? Like, how could you now, like at this point when I know what I know. And so I turned to him and I'm like, I know who you are now. So fucking knock it off. Right. And it was funny because like his face it just like went right

back to being a monster it was like he turned it right off um and i remember thinking to myself like wow like that is such like that that is a level of evil talent yeah that is if you could bottle it up you know you could probably like be very effective at warfare because, I mean, just being able to turn it off just like that was so, so scary. And scary. Yeah, because you, you know, when he was on, he, I mean, he had people eating out of his hand. And I mean, I remember what it looked like in court. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, how the hell do you believe him? And then I thought to myself, of course, I believed him.

Yeah. It was another part in your story when you was, I think you were sleeping and you were pregnant and you felt like you couldn't breathe. And I'm like, is this nigga trying to suffocate her? I think so. I think he was. Yeah. And he, when you woke up, he was standing over you uh yeah like it

it felt like you know and i've had this conversation with his um now adult son about what it felt like to be in that house and it like it felt like one of those like horror movies where there's like a house of mirrors and you're just like trapped house of horrors and you like can't figure out what is real and what's not, you know, cause he would do things that were just evil. And then, you know, like even like the suffocation incident, like I woke up and he's hovering over me and I'm just like, what the hell, man? Like, uh, and he, and he's like, oh, you must've had a nightmare. Oh, it must've been your hormones. Like it just, and I remember thinking like, I just don't know what's real and what's not real. Like I felt like

I was going crazy. Um, but how could you not feel like that? Yeah. I mean, it was just, it was, it was just crazy. Like it, it was a whole, it was a whole crazy, uh, it was a whole crazy situation and you know i think similar to a lot of abusive situations you know like they'll they'll punch you in the face and then they'll make you think that like you somehow punched yourself or like right you did something where like, yeah, you fell on his fist. Like you deserve it or whatever. And I mean, so it's, I think back to that time and I'm just like, you know, and it's interesting because it's like, I feel like it was a different lifetime. I feel like I was a different person. I know that I'm like the essence of me, right? Like the essence of me is the same, same but i feel i feel like i just feel like i feel woke right i feel like i yeah you found yourself i also like i i understand the world i feel like i understand the world in a way

that i never could have imagined pre-him and i think it's impossible. Like I think sometimes I'm like, okay, did I, did growing up in this like sheltered Christian community, like harm me in some way because I didn't see this part of the world. Like even from, I don't know if I put this in the book, but like I remember being in elementary school and them bringing police officers in and being like, they're here to help you and this and that and the third. Right. And like, that's not what I tell my kids, like, sorry, all police officers. Right. But like what I tell my kid is if you ever need help, you call me. Right. Because it might be dangerous for you to call the police because they might get there and they may actually not be on your side. And it's like a harsh reality, but it's real, right?

Like when you start thinking about like the way our systems work, and I guess like in some ways it's scary, you know, because like the- But it's the reality. It's the reality, right? So I feel like I'm, I feel like it's impossible to survive a situation like that and still walk around like somebody who doesn't know what's going on in the world you know like it just starts to make you question like okay like what are all these things for right but i also feel like given that you was a cia agent i feel like your expectations of the legal system of course is going to be high because of you technically is a part of that world no i mean fbi is like their law enforcement but like but still like you still have some type of dealings with them right

i mean yes and no like i think it's different though like i think that you know a lot of my job was was around like researching like international threats right right and that's like or like international threat intelligence and and that's like or like international threat intelligence and things like that like that's that's very different than like homegrown terrorism right right like i think that's yeah like i i i just i think it it is a very, it's, it's a very unique situation to be keenly aware of the type of crime that occurs on our home soil. Like I was not trained in that. Right. Like I wasn't trained to be looking for it. Like, you know, and,

and I also, it, it, like, it wasn't enough of my experience to even be thinking that it was at my front door um yeah and I and I also don't know I mean I I don't I honestly don't know how you prepare you know kids kids for that like I think yeah I think I I'm hopeful that I can talk to my kids about my experience without trying to transfer anxiety onto them just to be like, hey, like you, you can't trust people. Right. Yeah. But I mean, I say this knowing that even after my ex, like I, you know, I've I've had.

Or trust your gut. Trust your gut. Right. Like I but I think, yeah, I mean, it's not it's not just romantic relationships either, you know? Oh, no, definitely platonic too. Yeah, like, you know. Because bitches would be weird. I had a former business partner that turned out to be, like, completely horrible.

Yeah. And so it's like you just, I don't know, like, we all continue to make mistakes or whatever, and people continue to do this sort of thing but i do think that i think that with this level of trauma it's like it's it's hard to go back to like that kind of like naive um you know no you can't go back happy person not necessarily not like i'm not i'm a very happy person but like i think i'm just I'm just aware of how the world really is, which maybe makes me cynical and perhaps why I'm single. But but I also think I mean, given the journey that you've been on, I think it's normal for you to feel this way because what you've been through would have broke a lot of people like you don't look like what you've been through. Well, I'm glad about that. Yeah, because what you've been through was a lot. Because even, thank God for your dad, because when y'all discovered that your ex raped your sister,

and I have never wanted your dad to, like, pop off on him. Because I could not believe that that was the next part of the story. I actually am very thankful that he didn't kill him that night. Because I couldn't imagine. I think that would have been terrible and it it just i mean i think that i don't know it would have been heartbreaking it would have been terrible um and it would have ruined many people's lives and um yeah i don't i i'm just glad he was there because i also feel like if you didn't have your dad presence i think that your ex probably would have tried it even more oh i think so too i think he was yeah i think he i think he thought my dad was going to i think he thought my dad was capable of killing him yeah and so um yeah i mean i you know i know, I've said this to his older son before.

I'm like, you know, 50% of the people who lived with this man in his adult life are dead. We're the only two that survived. Yeah. And the son barely survived. Yeah. Like, I mean, he literally is like the boy who lived. Like, you know, I don't know it it's it's crazy um i think that though like i think choosing to survive and i've known a lot of people who've

gone through really terrible things and and similarly terrible things like people who've who've had um i've met a lot of people who've, who've, who've had children murdered by their ex. Right. Sadly, it's a club that no one you're going to live your best life. And if you, if you decide, like, if you, if you can't get past it or you like, you know, continue living in that misery, understand that that's also a choice. Right. Um, I think sometimes people, um, choose to remain a victim. Like, yeah, they don't want to get out of it they don't they feel like sort of some some sort of comfort in that or what have you um for me like i choose to live my best life because i know that that's the only way my son keeps living like if i chose that like i could have also chosen to die with him right yeah but i think if that if i had done that then he would have then he then there'd be no part

of him that was still living um and and also like I think I think that in many ways like my ex it would be winning for him right but yeah he wanted to destroy my life he wanted to destroy me um and he didn't succeed now when you hired the private investigator what were some of the things that you found out on top of him killing two other people i mean he was his mom and the mother he had stolen money from multiple people um you know you know, he had changed his name to his son's. Oh, that's, I didn't even put that in the book because it was hard to explain. So six months before his ex girlfriend died, the mom of his older son, he changed his name to his son's name. And then when she died, tried to claim that her life insurance policy was for

him and not for her son. Wow. Yeah. It was crazy. Like when you, like when I, when I read, when I poured through all the information, cause part of like taking a decade to write the book was like, I wanted to be, the reason it took so long is like, I wanted to hold myself accountable. I wanted to make sure I, I told the story in an authentic way. And I also wanted to be the reason it took so long is like, I wanted to hold myself accountable. I wanted to make sure I, I told the story in an authentic way. And I also want to make sure that I like got the facts right. So I was pouring through all this data, trying to make sure that like,

I, I had the chain of events and like all the things that happened. And it was just crazy. Like, even just looking at the autopsy reports from his own mom, like, you can't suffocate yourself to death. Right? Like, the bag was not tied to her head. It wasn't like, you know, like, if you press a bag to your head, you will pass out and then you will start breathing.

Right. So, like, it's actually physically impossible to kill yourself the way that they said she killed herself. Wow. And I have since had police officers tell me that her suicide note, and I put that in quotation marks, was not in her handwriting. Yeah. And I'm like, they had all of this. And like, why did no one charge him with that?

Yeah. Even when y'all went to the police and you told them about the situation with your sister. And I'm like, the fact that they charge y'all because they thought you was lying. And I'm like, where is this? Like, where are y'all at? Because this cannot be real. yeah i know like i dated someone from gainesville virginia which is prince william county and i was like man they will cut prince william county off of the out of the united states let it float off to sea and i would be like peace i don't know what's going on in that county but it is like i mean just i know that in our country we refuse to believe that women get raped it happens a lot and frankly yeah like back to what I said earlier with the little boys on the playground, like, I think we have this tendency to be like, boys will be boys and they, that's just how they are. And like, what did you do to like make him want to rape you or whatever? And so like, I know that it is common for police not

to prosecute rapes or people not to believe women. But when someone like this comes in and you know that he's killed multiple people, you know, they knew who he was in this town. And I remember a police officer saying like, yeah, he's not a good guy, but he's not a rapist. And I'm like, are you kidding? Like, so what? He's's a killer but not capable of rape like come on and why would you're supposed to lie about that she wouldn't it's crazy like the whole situation is is is crazy um it's just crazy but but they also thought i was lying they were like oh that never happened i'm like i have, I have two witnesses, like two witnesses. And if my son could speak, he'd be a third.

Yeah. Do you think that if you weren't Black, that the outcome would be different? I think about that a lot. And I think perhaps, you know, I do think that, I do think racism played a part both in. I do, too. In what happened with us, with the police and what happened in family court. I do think it played a part. But I also think that you can't ignore just how this police department acted and and the lengths that they went to to sort of like cover up their misbehavior to protect them yeah and so you know it it it leads me to wonder look

my ex didn't kill people who weren't black we all had something in common right right and so i think i think there is something to that right like he didn't date people he didn't date women that weren't black and i think that you know even though he liked to walk around saying he was dominican motherfucker was not dominican like he was white puerto rican he was white puerto rican because i googled him i'm like yo he's not he looks right right and when when it came down to it and it was his word against mine you, and I think that was another thing that made me, that I have learned. I think, you know, as black people, we have a tendency to like, you know, kind of like try to wear our degrees as like, as like, like, like. A badge of honor.

Yeah, or it's going to protect you from something, right? Right, Right. Right. So I, I thought I, I had the misguided idea that because I'm educated and because I had a good job and all this stuff that somehow I could like come into a police station and be believed. I think at the end of the day, like we cannot wipe our blackness from our skin. Yeah. So it's like you can have a whole, you know, like you can drape yourselves in your diploma and that's not going to protect you because it doesn't matter.

Like when they look at you. They see a black person. They see a black person, right? Yeah. They see a black person. They see a black person, right? And so, you know, but then again, like I can't, I do think that there was something with my ex in the police. There's too many people in the system that have told me that there's something with my ex in the police. I think it got to a point, if I hadn't gone to the media and blown it up, I don't think he would have ever gotten arrested, even for killing my son. I think they would have been like, oh, you know, he died of natural causes and just like brush it under the carpet. Listen, I'm not going to lie. When I was reading the story

and I felt like you were starting to find your voice, I was like, come on. That's what I'm talking about. Like you was not playing. And I was just so proud and so happy for you because it was evident from where we first started in the beginning of your book to where we at towards the end, or even now, you really stood up for yourself and you wasn't afraid no more. Yeah. I mean, I had nothing to lose at that point. That's why I tell people all the time, I'm like, I am the system's worst nightmare because my kids- Because you was giving them hell. Right? So I'm like, you can say or do whatever you right so I'm like you can you can say

or do whatever you want I'm not going to be in family court and that's one of the reasons I had my kids via donor because yeah I feel like I can't be quiet I feel like part of parenting my son is continuing to speak out about this and I think if I had to worry that like one day my kids could be in family court again even if I like loved the person and thought they were great like I think there would always be this fear in the back of my mind like oh my gosh what if this happens this happens again right and so yeah now I'm at the point where I'm just like you know what I can say whatever because I'm not in that system anymore and I'm not gonna be yeah can you share how much you ended up paying in legal fees throughout the entire process?

Yeah, it was like a little bit more than $150,000. Because it was a lot. It was a lot. I felt like, I mean, I'm thankful that my parents, you know, my parents let us live with them, which was, you know, I don't know how I don't know how I would have like afforded to rent anywhere. Because I was using my entire salary towards legal fees. And, and I liquidated all of my 401k and all that stuff from government just because I was like, I can't, I can't not fight, you know, like I have to, and, and these attorneys, I mean, they're like, you know, they were trashed 250 to $400,000 a year. Uh, yeah. Or I'm sorry, 250 to $400 an hour. And so when you like what people don't realize, like even sending your attorney an email,

they'll charge you a half an hour just to read the email. So like, think about every time you send an email, that's like $200 right there. And it just, it adds up, you know, it's like, it's so expensive. But you also made a good point in your book about the importance of having a therapist so you can avoid all those fees. Oh, totally. And I think I made a lot of mistakes early on because I was so, I mean, I was just like a walking trauma bond or a walking trauma bomb. You know, it's like I would just, I would just pour out everywhere. And, you know, I really, really people need to separate like that is your attorney and you need to have a therapist for you, you know, to kind of process what you've been through. Because if you try, you know, look, your attorney will let you, they'll just be like, sure, I'll charge you $400 to keep talking. But they didn't even do nothing. It's like, where's the integrity at? I don't know. Like that's part, but see, that's part of, I think that if we took the money

out of family court, I think kids would be safer. And I think people in the system don't want to hear that. Right. But it should never come down to like how much money someone has to be able to protect kids, right? Because it sets up a system of inequity. And it also, it puts people in the game with false motivations, right? So like, they let him go pick his own therapist to give his psychological. That was crazy. And so he picks this woman who's not even licensed. Right. And it's like, I feel like people are just,

you can pay these people to say whatever the, whatever you want. And if you had licensed therapists that worked for the courts that didn't have like, you know, a skin in the game for like honesty and you take the money out of it, like you take the private money out of it, it becomes like a more equitable process and it becomes more authentic because you aren't going to have a situation where someone's like, oh,

I'm going to say this because they paid me. And now I feel weird about like, you know, calling you a psychopath. Yeah. Throughout the custody battle, you advocated so strongly for supervised visits as if your spirit knew something terrible was going to happen. Did you ever feel like a deeper, deeper spiritual intuition guiding you, warning you for what's to come? Because I feel like when I was reading that part about your son and like you was going so hard, like it's like you kind of knew that you were prepared. Yeah. I knew. I remember. So when they lifted the supervised visitation, um, I called an organization called child justice and I, and I, and the first thing I said to them is I think he's going to try to kill him. I need to try to appeal this. And unfortunately my son never lived long enough for us to do an appeal. And I think it's like, how could you not worry about that after learning all that I learned?

And I mean, I remember this supervised visitation provider. She was like, oh, do you think he has a policy on him? And I thought that was crazy. I was like, why would you say that unless you know something? Right. And I remember calling like I called insurance companies asking. And the reality at the end of the day son under this false reality that I was dead and I didn't even get a right to know because like if I had known I could have taken that to police not to say that they would have done anything because but here's the motive but yeah but at least it would have been clear like I could have taken

it to the court to be like hey look like you, we see here two other people who he killed for life insurance policy, or at least we suspected. And now he's got a policy on him. Like, I mean, I wish I had had that information, because at the end of the day, like having a suspicion isn't going to be something that holds up in court. And I didn't find out about the policies until two weeks after he died. And the police gave it to me. Wow. Is there a place for forgiveness in your journey? And if so, what does that look like?

Just with the people and not just with your ex, but just with the people who were supposed to protect you and your son? I remember right after I think I put this in the book, actually. So like right after my son died, I remember being at the funeral and I was talking to the priest and I said to him, I said, I don't understand the, I don't understand how somebody could, like, I hate when people say, oh, you should forgive, you should forgive. And like, somehow it's like going to set you free. Right. And so he said something was really wise and he was like forgiveness should be um should be only for people who have the capacity or understanding what they did wrong and truly feeling something about it right right and so he

was like right now you're angry and he was like you hold on to that anger because it's that anger that's going to get you justice and i appreciated him so much because i made the assumption that like because he was a man of god he would be like you have to forgive and he's like fuck that right like right this is not like he was like it's it's a waste of your energy because he was like, look, forgive yourself. Right. But like, if I think my ex is useless for me to ever even think about, like, spending the energy required to even consider what forgiveness of him would look like. I do feel bad for him, right? There is a part of me that like is sad for him because I think somebody who is incapable of connecting to even his own son, that's just a, that's a very sad human condition, right? And so I do feel bad for him. I think his mental capacity or whatever was going on in his head, that's just, that's a sad existence. I don't forgive him because I just don't think he's capable. Like,

I don't think he is, I don't think his brain is capable for, to really have like attrition for what he did. So I think that's never going to happen. As far as other people in the system, I think, I think I would have forgiveness, but it would require what the priest said, right? He would, it would require them to acknowledge the harm that they did and actually do something to work towards making sure that it doesn't happen again. And I haven't received that from anyone in the process. And so I think like, that is something that for me, it would be required to extend that. Like I can think about like, for example, the judge, I think in many ways he was.

Oh, he was disgusting. Oh, he was he was a he was a fucker. Like, yeah, piece of shit. Like the way he talked to y'all in that courtroom was crazy. And he's never he has never apologized publicly or privately, has apologized. He's talking to, he's talked to third parties and I've heard back from him. He retired after like, you know, he resigned or whatever. But like, I'm like, you know, if you can't be man enough to just say, I'm sorry, even privately, right. Right. Nothing said has said zero words to me since my son died and so i'm like do

i forgive him no because even though this is a man who goes to church every sunday right i don't think i think he is i i i think he's a lost cause you know like if he if he look he's gonna have to be on his deathbed he's gonna have to go and deal with his own, like, you know. He know he fucked up though. Of course he knew he fucked up. I'm just saying that, like, I would like to believe that if I had committed the same atrocity, I would at least have the decency to say, I'm sorry for what I did. Right.

I'm sorry for what I said to you. I'm sorry for how this turned out. I'm sorry. what I did, right? I'm sorry for what I said to you. I'm sorry for how this turned out. I'm sorry for how I made you feel, right? Because like really at the end of the day, I can't sue him. He's completely unsuable, right? Right. So it's like, what are you going to lose by just being decent and saying, I'm sorry? Right.

But how can we hold the legal system accountable? Because unfortunately, your story is very common. So what can we do, especially in the family course? Because the one good thing about your book is you definitely gave a playbook on this is what you wanted to write the book that I needed while I was going through it. And two, I wanted to give a playbook for, you know, people who want to understand all the things that are wrong and want to make changes. You know, I really think that there are so many things that can be done on the state level. I think many of the laws that need to change are the state level. But I also think the federal government needs to take a stand because I think that what's happening to kids in this country is one of the biggest civil rights crises since the civil rights movement with black people. And I think the sad reality is that kids can't vote. And so politicians aren't thinking about

the kids they're thinking about making parents happy right and so what I think the federal government needs to take a stand on is I think they need to hold states accountable for not having child protective policies in place and there are ways to do it we've done it before like when we didn't integrate the schools the federal government was like well okay we won't pave your roads right right and so there are ways that the federal government can hold the states accountable. They just choose not to. And I think that it's gotten to a point where I think as society, you know, I say this all the time that so many people choose to ignore this because they're like, well, I don't have a kid in family court and my kid is safe and fine. But what I always say is like, what happens when that kid who's

been terrorized for the last 16 years knocks on your door and wants to take your daughter to prom? Yeah. Right. Now it's your problem. And we don't live in a bubble. You know, it's like you work with these people, you, you encounter them at the grocery store. And so I really think we need to, as a society, invest in protecting our kids. And the way we do that is instead of thinking about parental rights and how much time a parent should get, I think we really need to think about what is in the best interest of child safety, especially when there's like a safety risk at play. Like no kid is going to die by having to have supervised visitation with their like, you know, derelict parent. Like, it's like, okay, they get access to this person. Like I was not fighting Prince getting to know this man. I just wanted to make sure that it was in a safe environment and that he wasn't going to be able to kill him. Because realistically, Prince could have been in supervised visitation for his entire childhood and he would have been just fine. He probably would have eventually figured

out his dad was effing crazy, right? But he wouldn't have been dead. Right. Do you ever think about what your life would look like if he was still alive? I do. And it's really hard because I often wonder if there was a world in which both he and my daughters could exist, which is a really hard thing to think about like, you know, would they be fighting with him? Would my, would my oldest be like, ah, like Prince is coming into my room again and like being annoyed. He'd be like, ah, she stole my computer or whatever. Like, you know, I would love to imagine that world, but I think the, you know, the sad reality is I also cannot imagine, um, a scenario in which that was sustainable because yeah i think that my ex was so deranged um you know that i don't know it it feels very much like prince never had a chance which is part of the reason i go back to like he should never have been born because i think that it was horrible to put him through that like i would like to believe that I gave him the best life possible, but I also am realistic enough to know that I was not the best version of myself for him. Like, my daughters see a very different

mom. Like, I am a better mom to them because I can be, because I'm not, you know, like, I think what's hard is like when you're in this like heightened state of acute trauma, you can never heal from it. Right. Cause you're constantly in it. And yeah, for his entire life, I was afraid that he was going to die. And, um, and I, and I was like, I think back to like the moments that I was on an email or a phone with an attorney and not spending time with him. And I'm like, gosh, I wish I could have those moments back because it didn't matter, you know, like it still ended up the way it ended up. And I would do anything to like hug him again. And, and I don't have the,

you know, I don't have that opportunity. He's not here anymore. Do you still keep in contact with his older brother? I do. Yeah. He is a great kid. I mean, he's a guy now, so I can't call him kid, but I'm always, he's a man now, right? I'm always going to see him as a 10 year old. I don't care how old he is. I've told him this before. I'm like, look, you're 10. I know you're 25, but you're 10. Right. You know, I think I want the best for him. And, you know, I tell him a lot, like, you know, I call him my Suno because he was like my son. He was your first son. You know, he made me feel like a mom, which was also really hard because I think my attachment to him made it harder for me to leave his dad when I should have.

Because I couldn't take him with me. I mean, even in the end, it was a decision where I was like, I can't save him, but I can try to save Prince. But it still weighs on me having had to make that decision to leave. What do you hope that he takes away from this journey? From my book or just the journey? I mean, I think just overall, because I wonder, does he ever talk to you about how he feels? We'll talk about it yeah I think it's I mean I think that I can't even imagine what it would be like to be a kid in that environment right and I right I think he has a lot more to

unpack than even me because I think what is hard is that I mean I think I think even dealing with him like I've realized kids want to love their parents. Right. Yeah. No matter what they want to love their parents, which is why I think this whole, like when people say parental alienation, I'm like, that's bullshit. Like kids want to love their parents. So if you're, if, if your kid is telling you something about a parent that's negative, like trust them. So I think that what's hard is that it's still his dad, right? Yeah. You know, he's, he's certainly aware that his dad is who he is and he's not, you know, he doesn't have rose-colored glasses to think that he didn't do what he did. Right. But I think it's a very different struggle,

you know, and I would have had it with my own son, right? Like if Prince had survived, I think that there is something he would have carried knowing that this person who was capable and who had perpetrated such terrible things on people was related to him. Yeah. So, yeah, I think he's going to have a lifelong struggle with that. When I gave him a copy of the book and before I gave it to him, I said to him, I was like, I want you to protect your peace. I'm giving you this because I love you and I want you to have it. And I want you to, like, have the opportunity to one day, like, read what I felt during that situation. But I also, you know, want you to know that if you don't read it, it's going to be okay. Like, if you, and to be conscious of how you're feeling, because I think it's very different for him having lived his own version of it.

Yeah. You know, and he was super little. I mean, he was only 10. Yeah. And seeing my oldest right now, who's 10, like, I mean, I cannot imagine her having to deal with all that. Yeah.

We're almost finished, but one of the most beautiful things that you said about your son, Prince, I don't know if I read it or you said it in one of your interviews, but you said even at 15 months old, he was able to do something impactful, which was he was able to stop a serial killer. Yeah. I mean. And I thought that was so beautiful, I think they find us. that my son came here for a reason i think he chose me because he was like this woman is not gonna stop right like she's gonna do what needs to be done and yeah i'm gonna put a finish to this man and i'm gonna do it where nobody can say that like i did anything because i'm just a kid right

and so i do feel very strongly that he chose me and he came for a reason um you know prince i still wish that maybe you had chosen someone else um yeah or like thank you uh for for this honor um but it also you know helps me feel like he chose i feel like he had a part in choosing my daughters to come to me and so like it makes me feel like connected it makes me feel like they're somewhat also connected to him which is which is special and powerful and and yeah i mean he was he was the boy that finally you know put this man behind bars and i have to believe like i do think that he would have kept killing i think he would have kept doing terrible things to people and And so, you know,

it is, it is a comfort knowing that like, that even though my son is not here anymore, like at least this man is in jail and he can't hurt anybody else. Yeah. What are the most important lessons you want to impart to your daughters about relationships? I think that I want them to realize that they are important and that they don't have to settle for, you know, they don't, they don't have to settle and they can choose their own destiny. And like, you know, my, some people in my family get on my case because they're like, oh, like my oldest has said, she's like, I'm just going to get a donor. And they were like, you should teach them that like, there's all these other things. I was like, you know, I love that. She says that because she knows that it's an option. Right. Right. And I'm like,

I also tell her like, Hey, look, like there's beauty in any type of way that you create a family. Right. But I want her to know that she doesn't have to she doesn't have to feel like she's settling right like i hope for them that they find very like healthy happy relationships i certainly want grandbabies right one day um but i like that they at least in that way are sort of like freed from societal's like, what is right. Yeah. Because I think that is, I think that is the most toxic thing, like feeling like you as a woman have to be like the property of a man. And it's part of the reason why I'm in my feelings about marriage in general these days, because I'm like, it made sense in the 70s when

we couldn't have bank accounts, right? But now I'm like, you know, I want my daughters to know that when they're in a relationship, they can, they should wake up every day choosing that person. And they should make sure that that person wakes up every day, choosing them, choosing them. And not just because they have to be legally attached with them, but just because like, I choose to be with you because you treat me well. And because I love you and because you're a good person and all those things, right? Yeah. And last but not least, if Prince were here today, what would you want him to know about the work you're doing? I told him the day I buried him, I, like a crazy person, had a conversation with the corpse.

That's not crazy. I was like, Prince, you were not the first, but I want you to be the last. And I'm going to do whatever I can to make sure that I contribute to making sure this ends. And so, yeah, I hope that he knows that I'm carrying this on for him. I hope he feels vindicated in choosing me. Like, oh, I did the right thing because she did what I wanted. But I also hope that he, you know, I've tried to work really hard on forgiving myself. And I think one of the things that I'm very sad about is just, I feel like I feel in many ways I failed him by not,

not making it so that it never happened. And that's, yeah. I mean, I would tell him, I'm sorry. Have you forgiven yourself? I don't know would tell him I'm sorry. Have you forgiven yourself?

I don't know. That's a good question. Like, I think I have in some ways. Because I feel like you, it's a wave. I think it's hard to completely feel like I don't have any accountability, right? Because I think that there's still a part of me that is like, I actively made the choice to be with this person, right? Right. And I think it's more, it's not necessarily I blame myself. I just feel like a level of sadness that I wasn't able to protect him. Like I tried really, really hard and I wasn't able to protect him. Like I tried really, really hard and I wasn't able to do it.

And it, and it, I think the thing that bothers me the most is like, I go over and over and it was part of the book too. It's just like all these things happen. And I, and I still feel like if one thing had been different, he'd still be.

Yeah. And so that's the hard part. That's hard like i think part of the trauma and like the acute trauma of going through it is like you kind of you always feel like you have to be a step ahead of the crazy person but it's like there's no there's no knowing you know yeah um but it still doesn't feel good because you're like damn like if i could have just done one thing different if I could known this thing. So I don't know. I mean, I think I have forgiven myself, but it's still I think I still hold a certain level of just like anger and disappointment that I'll probably always hold because I couldn't do anything.

I couldn't do I couldn't I couldn't save him. Yeah. Well, listen, I'm proud of you. I think that your story is definitely inspiring, and I know that it is saving a lot of people. So I think that, if it makes sense, this wasn't in vain. And I think you're doing it. I think that Prince came here for a reason because he knew that you was going to fight and you fought a really good fight. Like, God forbid something was to happen. I got my money on you. Well, I appreciate that.

I mean, I'm hoping like I want to start a movement and I'm hoping that people will get. You did start a movement. I'm surprised. Have anybody reached out to make this a movie or something or like. Not yet. But I'm still like I joke with friends. I'm just like I feel like friends I'm just like I I feel like I've lived a bad lifetime movie so I feel like you know yeah because we need a movie like

we need something because I think that a lot of women and men can relate to your story yeah I mean I I I would certainly love for the opportunity to have more people be aware. And not just for, you know, like I said in the book, like not just for trauma porn, but really awareness. People understand, you know, like I want people to walk around as woke as I am. Like, so they are so they start to think about like, OK. You know, like I let's stop trusting people with the same level of trust you know yeah well thank you so much for being on the show i i'm really excited to um have you on y'all i read her book literally in like two days so i'm just i i'm looking forward to keeping in contact

with you because i definitely want to have you involved in some of the things that i'm working on because i'm really big on people sharing a story because you never know how your storyline can be someone else's lifeline. So I really appreciate you coming on. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And to the listeners, if you have any questions, comments, concerns, please make sure to email me at hello at the PhD podcast.com. And until next time, everyone later. Bye-bye. The Professional Homegirl Podcast is a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. And you can connect with me on social media at the PHG Podcast.