The Breakfast Club - THROWBACK INTERVIEW: Malcolm Jamal Warner On The Cosby Show Legacy, Musical Expression, _Accused_ Show + More

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Malcolm-Jamal Warner was more than an actor, he was a storyteller, a poet, a creative force who elevated every space he entered. His work inspired generations, and his contributions to art and culture will never be forgotten. Rest in Power, Malcolm-Jamal Warner 🕊️YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BreakfastClubPower1051FMSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Well, actually, Peso was supposed to be on Chinito's album. The song with Drake was supposed to be with Peso. Listen to Agustapapa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You know what's interesting? I was thinking about organically who was going to be the first guest in the new Breakfast Club studio. Because to me that's important. Because you're setting off a new generation, you're setting off a new chapter, so who would be the first guest?

And I'm honored. Legend. We should be honored. Icon. Come on, man. Grew up on him. Come on, man. Ladies and gentlemen, Malcolm Jamon Warner, welcome. Hey. Word. You said first guest, and I didn't really register. Oh, I said it before?

Yeah, before you started, yeah. But now, OK, I got it. That's dope. Yeah, you are the first guest in our new studio. Ladies and gentlemen. First guest of the year. First guest in the new studio. Some of you all know him as Theo Huxtable, ladies

and gentlemen. Welcome. Word, thank you. Thank you very much. I want to, for people that don't know, I want to start. Hold on, you can't ask the most important question. What? Have you played the Mega Millions ain't asked the most important question. What?

Have you played the Mega Millions? Yeah. That's the most important question. I thought you were gonna say how you feeling, how you doing, how you rolling up Happy New Year. I'm gonna get to that. I guess I need to, huh? You need to, man. I need to.

So about Billy. 1.3 billion. Okay. I did one, I did, I don't know, the last one was in the billions couple months ago. Yep. How'd you do?

Well, I thought I was doing good. Like, I went in there, I was like, yo, give me, so my wife has numbers that are like her lucky numbers, so when the numbers get real big, she wants to play those numbers. And there's like three, so I took hers, and I was like, you know what, play these, and I was like, I'ma splurge, give me three more.

You know, I think I'm doing good. And this cat next to me, in the next one, he was like, give me 200, do do do do. I'm like, fuck. It's like that. So I'm not, you know, I didn't win, obviously. That's a good deal. That's good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I don't have my own breakfast club, so clearly, I didn't win. So you didn't win $2, $4, $8, $10, nothing? No, nothing. So you didn't do good. That means you didn't do good. No, no, $8, $10, nothing? No, nothing. So you didn't do good. That means you didn't do good.

No, no. But I might go back in though. I mean, if it's in the billions again. There's a billy right now. Now you're from Jersey City. Now for most people that don't know, how did you get your start in show business? Because we heard that you were a rapper at first. You were in a rap group.

Yeah. Almost signed by Def Jam at the time. Any truth to that? That was after Cosby though, right? Yeah, that was after Cosby. That was after Cosby. So how did you get your start with show business? at the time. Any truth to that? That was after Cosby though, right? Yeah, that was after Cosby. That was after Cosby.

So how did you get your start with show business? I was doing basically community theater. My mother was always looking for me to, looking for things for me to do outside of going to school and coming home and hanging out. So like I played basketball and that wasn't my thing. I thought I was gonna be a basketball player. And then one season, one year basketball season was over,

my mother's friend suggested this community theater, and asked me if I wanted to go. So I went down, auditioned, got in, and found myself doing theater, and just absolutely loved it. So at nine years old, I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. And what it was, it was really, it was the first curtain call. Like the first play I did was called Alice Is That You?

And it was basically a takeoff of The Wiz. Like Dorothy gets the odds and everybody thinks she's Alice from Alice in Wonderland. Right, and I played the Tin Man. And I just remember the first opening night coming out for curtain call, coming out and people clapping and standing up. And I'm like 10 man, and I just remember the first opening night coming out for Curtain Call. Coming out and people clapping and standing up. And I'm like nine years old, and I'm like, yo.

I can get into this. People stand up and clap for you. Yeah, I like this. And at the time, Jersey City wasn't Jersey City now with these big skyscrapers and people dying to buy. It was a whole, it was nasty. No one was scrambling to get to Jersey City. No.

But this was LA. I left Jersey when I was five. My parents separated and my dad went back to Chicago. My mom took me back to California. So the acting thing started in LA. But then when I, years later, when I booked Cosby, we obviously moved back to New York. How did you book Cosby?

What was that process like? That's funny. So when my agent first submitted me, they were looking for a 6'2", 15-year-old. Jesus Christ. Yeah. They was all getting ready for the NBA. It was clear.

Well, because Innis was 15 and was 6'2". Who was Innis? Mr. Cosby's son. Oh, okay, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. So in the original script, there was this running joke like Theo would get in trouble with something and Cliff would be like, Theo stand up, and Theo stands up

and he's towering over Cliff and Cliff would be like, Theo sit down. Oh, okay. So they were trying to get that, they couldn't find that kid. Okay. And literally at the, so she submitted you know, she submitted me, they didn't want to see me.

And at the last minute, she resubmitted me because they couldn't find the guy and they were doing network callbacks. This is crazy because it was Good Friday, 84. I auditioned at 6.30 on Friday afternoon and the network callbacks were that Monday. So they were already flying in somebody from Chicago, flying in somebody from New York. So I was literally the last person they saw. And when I went in for the network callbacks,

I went in and I did the audition like, you know, you see, I was watching Different Strokes and whatnot. So you see kids being smart Alex and talking back to their parents and rolling their eyes. So I was doing the strokes and whatnot. So you see kids being smart Alex and talking back to the parents and rolling their eyes. So I was doing the scene like that. And in the room is network, producers, studio, and I'm killing in the room. Everybody's like, I'm hitting all the beats

and everybody's laughing and I'm killing and I finish. And everybody's like, cool, except Mr. Cosby. And he's looking at me and he's like, would you really talk to your father like that? And I said, no. He said, well, I don't want to see that on the show. So you go back out and you give me something else and come back later.

And because it was the network callbacks, like everybody was there. So they had auditioned everybody for other parts and the finally I came back in and gave them a 180 degree turn. Well clearly he saw something in you though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they gave me the shot to come back and redo it

and that's how I booked it. You know what's interesting about what you said earlier? You said that you was in theater at nine years old. So people see these gifted young actors on shows like Cosby back in the day and we don't realize the background because nowadays it feels like there's no point in entry to get on these TV shows or anything.

Or social media or social media becoming a thing. You actually went and were perfecting your craft before you got to that point. Yeah and I still do. Every couple years I'll do theater even when I was on Cosby. I always go back to theater because that is the, I mean that's the foundation. So I always say theater is my favorite platform.

Television is my favorite paycheck. But theater is really, that's the shit right there. Have you ever just sat back and reflected on what you and the Cosby Show meant to black people in really the world from 84 to 92? Yeah, yeah. It's something that we still talk about, right? What you say we the characters?

No, I'm saying we like worldwide, the culture. Because it's had an indelible, irreversible effect on the culture, so it's something I'm very proud, like no matter what, I'm very proud to have been a part of that, and part of that, just to have that kind of, I guess, influence, if you will. And when I was younger, it was always, I was always trying to escape this role model title,

because I was like, oh, Malcolm is always a role model. And my thing was always, we always equate perfection with role model. So I never wanted the pressure of being seen as flawless, because I didn't want that, like that wasn't me. I never wanted the pressure of being seen as flawless because I didn't want that, like that wasn't me. So I used to kind of shy away from that title. And now that I'm older, not that I want to be considered a role model,

but I do understand the, you know, having the platform, I understand having the ear of young people. Like, you know, fortunately, I'm still at a place where I'm still relevant enough, where, you know, what I say can still have influence on young people. People gonna always listen to you

because of that time period. Sure, yeah, yeah. Straight up. Yeah, and that's something I take seriously. So I was really fortunate because we shot Cosby here in New York, and you know, during the 80s, man. Y'all didn't show up the other side of Brooklyn. That wasn't Brooklyn in the 80s. That was actually the-

That was actually the- That was from Manhattan. That was actually the- No, so we shot in Brooklyn, then we shot in Queens, but that stoop, that front stoop was actually in the village. In the village, yeah. That wasn't even Brooklyn. Right by the old station. Yeah.

I was gonna ask, Theo, you being, you know, always looked at as Theo, does that ever bother you? Cause with certain characters that we always look at, whether it's Steve Urkel, he's always gonna be Steve Urkel, and you're always Theo, does that ever bother you? No, it doesn't bother me. But there's been this, I guess this wave of interpretation that bothers me because if somebody calls me Theo,

I'm like, no, my name's Malcolm. But I've always done that. But some people, they misinterpret it as, I get mad when people call me Theo. One thing's like, no, and even when I was on Cosby, I wouldn't answer to Theo because as far as I was concerned, Theo was not going to be the end all be all for me. Like at 15 years old to think like,

oh if this is gonna be the height of my career, that's a depressing thought. When the show first aired, you know I'm 14, you know the ratings are out the box. And my mom sat me down, she said, baby it's great that this show is the phenomenon that it is, but you know how this business is. This show could be over next year.

What are you gonna do when the show's over? She said, I can type, I can always get a job, but what are you gonna do when the show's over? So she impressed upon me the concept of longevity. So I wasn't, you know, when I was on the show, I never answered to Theo, and especially now, you should know, like now, if somebody calls me Theo, they'd be in a dick, because they know my name.

And I also don't think people look at you as Theo. I get what you're saying. They shouldn't at this point. You've done a lot other than Theo. I mean, you had a whole other show with your name in it, man, I'm coming in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long did it take you to adjust to life

after the Cosby Show? How did things look in 92? Well, I had always prepared for it. That was the thing. I was, from that conversation that my mom had with me, we literally spent each year of that show as if it were the last year, because we didn't know. So I had always prepared for life after Khajiit. So when the show was over,

I had my own show for a half a season on NBC, and then from that I went straight to theater. So I've always worked. There may have been longer stretches of unemployment than I would have liked, but we're talking like maybe two, three years. But I always knew that the transition from being seen as child star to being taken seriously as a adult actor

wouldn't necessarily be a smooth one, and that's why I started directing early. Like I started directing like 16 by 18 I was directing Cosby episodes, I was directing music videos, I was directing Fresh Prince of Bel-Air so when I came off of Cosby yeah. What episode? I think it was episode with Raven, one of Raven-Symones episodes. Okay. Yeah. I was wondering, did you look at Bill Cosby as a father figure? Because you around him so much, you did so much acting like.

Right. And I mean, you were a good actor, but it was believable. It seems like you admired him as a father when I would watch the show, or even see behind the scenes of the show, whatever. Well, I mean, I was doing theater. I was perfecting my craft at 90.

You did a great job. All right. No, because I was doing theater. I was perfecting my craft at nine years old. You did a great job. Right, no, because my father has always been an integral part of my life. So I have a father. He was, Mr. Cosby was obviously someone I worked with, someone I respected, but Ennis was also a close friend of mine. So he was also like Ennis' dad.

Gotcha. So it wasn't, I mean, I would definitely say he was a mentor because he schooled me on a lot of things, but I love the father-son relationship between Cliff and Theo, but that wasn't our relationship. But we're mad cool, but it wasn't the father figure. Now as a mentor, did he school you on to contracts and negotiations?

Because that thing, it's still on now. And I'm like, do you still get paid? And was everything taken care of the right way? Or is it you're a new actor, you got got? Yeah, we got got. Well, I won't say we got got. That's not true. That's completely unfair to say we got got.

But I will say this. So yeah, so we get residuals, right? But the thing that people don't necessarily understand about residuals is every time an episode repeats, you get a percentage of what your original paycheck was. And that show has repeated forever. Correct. So let's say to put things in perspective,

about 10, 12 years ago, I remember getting an episode check for $64. I thought a residual check would be a quarter sometimes. Yeah, like at some point, sending the check out costs more than what the check is. Correct. So for a period of time though, that lump sum was a nice padding.

But then after a while, once it just keeps airing, it's not a whole lot. But when you have points, when you've got back end, that's when you're forever making money because when they syndicate the show, however many times they syndicate it, you have a piece of the show so you're getting that kind of money. We didn't get ownership. We had no back end. We didn't know about back end, and even if we did, we didn't have any leverage to negotiate back end.

Yo, all new. You said something that made me feel like I'm a fail of black history trivia question. What show did you have on NBC for half a season? Oh man, it was, trust me, Anata Failure. They dick me on that too. It was a show called Here of failure. They dicked me on that too. It was a show called Here and Now. I definitely don't remember that show.

Yeah, it came on, so it came on, it came on Saturday nights. It was, it came on after, or came on before. It was a show called Out All Night with Patti LaBelle. I remember Out All Night. Or so, yeah, so we were on. I was on that. Were you really?

Yeah, yeah. With Morris Chestnut and the rest of the month. He thinks he's Morris Chestnut. Oh,Belle, Morris. So yeah, so we were on. I was on there. Were you really? Yeah, yeah. With Morris Chestnut and the one of mine. He thinks he's Morris Chestnut. Oh, got it. He's smart as he looks like Morris Chestnut. It's so disrespectful to Morris Chestnut, but he swears. Morris said he gets mistaken for me sometimes. He said that just recently happened.

And you the only one I'm like. Well, it happened. And I'm only that. Dope. All right. Oh God, that's hilarious. I remember it all night, I definitely remember that. Patti LaBelle, Marge, that's not, yeah.

So it was during that time. So this is something that's really interesting. So we had that show, the president or the programmer at NBC at the time didn't like the show, right? And didn't think the show was gonna do well. And it was basically, you know, it wasn't Theo, but my character worked in the community center in Harlem. And the program of NBC didn't think it was going to be a funny show,

didn't think it was going to work. We shot the pilot and they do what's called a pilot screening week where they get all their pilots, they screen them, then they get raided. And then that's how they decide what's going to go on there. My show came in number two. So really the only question was, do we put this show on Thursday night before Different World or after Different World?

Because for eight years, if my face is, if America's used to seeing my face at Thursdays at eight o'clock, it makes sense that if my pilot does well, you're gonna put me on Thursdays, either at eight o'clock or 8.30. The programmer still didn't like the show, and he put me on Saturday night.

Which is why nobody ever heard it, because my audience is not gonna be watching me on Saturday night. And then, when the number one rated, the number one pilot they put in that eight o'clock slot, they canceled after two weeks. So we're like, okay, cool, they're putting the number two in that slot.

Kept me on Saturday night. Then they put Out On Night in that slot. Like NBC, they were not trying to hear that show no matter how well it did. So we got canned half a season in. I think NBC dropped the ball, because you know how different world was Lisa growing up being in college?

They could have did that with all the kids. Like, they could have did that with you growing up. I feel like your adult life should have been explored in that way. But you know what's interesting, different world, oh, so let me go back just real quick. So, what you don't know about that show here and now, this cat named Dante Bizet was on the show. I don't know about that show here and now, this cat named Dante Bizet was on the show.

I don't know who that is. Right, everybody knows him as Yacine Bay right now. Oh, wow. Lauryn Hill was on the show. Wow. What? Yeah, Omar Epps was on the show. What? Yeah. Yeah, but they, NBC, they didn't dig the show.

And so, of course, this was before they blew up, but yeah, but they were all on the show. If they'd have made one little adjustment and made you Theo on that show, and you older now, I bet you it would've worked. You know what? It's possible. I wanna ask, out of all your episodes,

I'll ask Charlamagne, so my most memorable Cosby show is of course the Gordon-Gontrell. Season one episode eight. And of course. That's not the most memorable. Of course the airing. Maybe two of them. That was episode eight? I think it was season one episode eight. Okay, that's good. Season one, episode eight. And of course. That's not the most memorable. Of course, the airing. For maybe, maybe your two of them. That was episode eight? I think it was season one, episode eight. Okay, that's good.

Of course the airing. The airing, the airing. The dance mania. I did the same thing when I got my airing. So what was your favorite? All of those, but I think that at the top of this would be the pilot. When Theo was getting Ds in school

and they did the whole Monopoly money thing and you know, Theo gives this whole, that was the earring, that was the earring. That was the earring, okay. That was the earring. And you know, Theo gives this speech, you know, like, you know, dad, I just wanna be regular people.

Like, I don't wanna be a doctor like you. I don't wanna be a lawyer like mom. I just wanna be regular people and why can't you love me for me? It was like this beautiful heartfelt speech. Yeah, I don't wanna be a lawyer like mom. I just wanna be regular people and why can't you love me for me? It was like this beautiful heart-hills. I remember that. And the audience claps and the whole nine and Cliff looks at Dio and says Dio,

that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. And so for me that was significant because it set the tone for the show. any other show at that point the music would have Started correct the father and son would have hugged Yeah, but he you know he went left with that and I just love that because that set the tone that this was going to Be a different kind of show. We're gonna talk about other stuff other than Cosby. I just want you know as a fan I gotta get some Did you ever keep the Gordon-Gardner? other stuff other than Cosby. I just, I have a fan, I gotta get some. No doubt. You're letting that come first time here, we gotta go. No doubt, no, all good.

Did you ever keep the Gordon Gartrell shirt? I did not. I think it's in the Smithsonian, if I'm not mistaken. It should be. It should be. Yeah. That was a classic.

That was one of our, that was definitely one of our most fun, and for me, most memorable episodes. Did you ever get approached about doing a Gordon Gartrell clothing line? Malcolm Jamal wanted a Gordon Gartrell clothing line. I'm surprised I have not. But I see there's a Gordon Gartrell clothing line? Malcolm Jamal wanted Gordon Gartrell. I'm surprised I have not. But I see there's a Gordon Gartrell

like t-shirt line out somewhere. Yeah, yeah. I was gonna ask, how much of this show was free done and how much was actually written? Like were you allowed to go off script because some of that stuff just seemed like y'all were going. We had to often go off script because it, so it takes, it typically takes five days to do a sitcom.

We were doing, we got down to like three and a half days. And you know, most of those storylines came from Mr. Crosby's monologues, right? So we were a very under-rehearsed show. So when it was time to tape the show, oftentimes, you know, if Mr. Crosby had like a monologue or something, he wouldn't know the monologue. So he'd like, he'd go left.

And the fun part for us was when he went left, we had to go left with him. So, you know, for me it was great, cause I was like, oh, this is theater. Now we just, you know, we, you know, you follow the leader, you follow the followers, what we call it. So, you know and and I love seeing those moments with him and him and Olivia were cool but like those moments with him and

Keisha you know because at the time you know Keisha was four so she didn't know how to read so she had to know she had to remember what to say how to say it and when to say it and the wind was always based on the line before. So she's doing scenes with Mr. Cosby and she's waiting for her line and he's just talking. And they would just make, it was just really cool to watch her. And if you go back,

you could just see her little brain processing how to maneuver through what's happening. So those stuff was written, there was stuff that had to be kind of off book because we were following him. And Felicia was the best at that when you look at those episodes. Absolutely.

Do you believe Malcolm and Eddie gets overlooked when it comes to the conversation of like classic black sitcom? Ah, I don't know. I don't know. Because people do talk about it a lot. You know, and that was an interesting time for me, you know, having come from NBC where, you know, everyone was made to be ultra aware of the images

of black people who were puttin' across the airwaves, and then goin' to UPN where their whole approach was the antithesis of that. So that was a difficult shift for me because I was thinking that, I was of the mindset that they knew where I come from. They knew I was on the show that made history where black people, that showed that black people

could be funny without being stereotypical. And when I got to UP and I realized they weren't interested in any of that. And for eight years I watched Mr. Cosby, like all of the things that, all of the stereotypical things that we did not see on that show was not because the writers were not writing them. It was because Mr. Cosby was like,

no, that's not what we're doing. That's not the tone of the show. That's not who the Hucks was are. We're not doing that. So I saw him do that from season one to season eight. So I figured, okay, I'm at UPN. I know how it works. But I was not Bill Cosby

and we were not doing Cosby numbers. So nobody really cared about what I cared about in terms of trying to not be, not do the same typical black sitcom approach. And I fought with writers, producers, studio, network, and the show was not as, it was not 100% what I wanted, but it wasn't as stereotypical as they were trying to make it, if that makes sense. I love talking to people from that era. We had Khadim Hardison and Jasmine Guy up here,

Erica Alexander's been up here, and I asked them all the same question, do you think it was an intentional shift, I'm just gonna say by they, because I don't know who it would be to change that kind of content, because when you think about that era, it was all positive black content,

intentional positive black content, but then it just seemed like it just shifted. You think that was purposely done? Yeah, it was like a reaction to it. We had this couple of years of family and positivity. And not just in black sitcoms, in sitcoms period. It was the family values, positivity. Then there was The Simpsons.

Then there was Roseanne. So that kind of kicked off, it was almost like there was a backlash to the family values and positivity. So I 100% wholeheartedly believe it was intentional. Now when it comes to black sitcoms, I think the thing that everybody missed was, people looked at the Huxabals and was like, oh, this is an upper middle class black family.

So we can do black sitcoms and we can give these black characters professions, but the execution of the comedy was still the same. Like the thing about what made Cosby different is the comedy wasn't predicated upon being black. Black sitcoms, the wasn't predicated upon being black. That's right. Black sitcoms, the comedy is predicated upon being black. That's right.

So I think that's the missing piece that the following black sitcoms missed out on. They're like, okay, well, let's make them a professional, but it can still be, we can still jig. Right. I just never understood how things went backwards. Because copy shows big as hell, different world, Hugh, Martin, all of these shows big, living single, and we go back to nonsense?

I feel like you would build upon that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely wholeheartedly agree. It's an intentional shift. I was going to ask, you know what I intentional shift. By who, by who, by they. By they. By they. Now Sean, I mean, talked about it before

about the influence, but looking back at it now, do you guys know that you guys, and this was maybe what you were setting out to do, you guys raised so many families of what to do, how to act, how to talk to kids, how to have difficult conversations, how to speak to each other how to have difficult conversations, how to speak to each other.

And then even with a different world, like I tell everybody, that was the reason why I went to Hampton University, because of a different world was Hampton to me. So do y'all look back and say, damn, we raised a generation? Yeah, but that was his intent. But he was very clear on what he was doing. And he was very clear that he wanted those shows

to be timeless. That was something he talked about consistently because there were times, you know, I'm 15, 16, I'm trying to use, you know, whatever slang we were using at the time. And he was like, no, that's gonna date the show. Let's make up our own slang. So in 25 years when people are still watching the show,

the show is still relevant. So, you know, our credit to him because that's what he, that's what he set out to do. How did you feel when, like I would say a couple years ago, they tried to take the show off? Yeah. It bothered me because although everything that was going on, the show was so positive for our culture.

So how did you feel when they started taking the shows off of syndication and were threatening to pull the shows off different networks? Well, I mean, you know, the real, it hit us all financially. Because now we weren't getting those residuals. At $64. Yeah.

$64 was. But that lump, you know, you're talking about eight years of residuals, so that's still a nice little padding. So it's interesting. I did, in 2015, I put out my third record, right? And on that record, I mean, I got Layla Hathaway, I got Robert Glasper, Lettucey. The Hiding in Plain View?

No, that's this one that's out now. Okay, okay, okay. That was called Selfless. Okay. So Layla, Lettucey, Stokely, Rasson Patterson, Robert Glasper, like the album's like, it's a banger. I could not book any press unless I agreed to answer at least one question about Bill Cosby.

It was the only way I was gonna be able to get my record covered. So I do this interview with AP. We spend 25, 30 minutes talking about my career, talking about my music, like it's a dope interview. And then at the very end, the last question she asked me is, what do you think with the Bill Cosby controversy that the legacy of the show has been tarnished?

So I said, well, yeah, of course it's been tarnished because they've taken it off the show. And whenever we talk about stereotypical black images on television, we've always had the Cosby show to hold juxtapose against that. But we no longer have that. The next day, all of the headlines read, Malcolm Jamal Warner says the legacy of the Cosby show

has been tarnished. I'm like, that's not even what you said. So then I remember a couple months later seeing Keisha on some talk show and they asked her the same question. And she said, no, it's impossible to tarnish the legacy of that show because there's a generation of kids who sought out higher education because of that show.

There are a generation of kids who grew up and got married and had loving families because of that show. There's no way that you can reverse the influence that that show has had on the culture. And so now I always bite her, I always bite her response now. But yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's undeniable and it's irreversible. You know, it's had a, you's had a huge impact on our culture and it had a huge global impact on how black people saw themselves. I was gonna ask you, what's the pros and cons

of having your name in the title of a sitcom in reference to Malcolm and Eddie, but to me, it's the same thing with that. I think if that show was called The Huxtables, it wouldn't even be a conversation. I think if it was called The Huxtables, people would easily be able to separate the art from the artists.

So what do you think the pros and cons are? Probably that. I think probably anybody who's having their own show and their own sitcom, because also remember, so many sitcoms are usually based around a standup. And you know, either they can handle the job or they can't. You know, that's what the success of the show depends upon.

So I think for any standup to have your own show and have it be your name, like that's the dream. But I think to your point, that's a huge con. But of course no one goes into it thinking that, you know, there's gonna be the end result of that. I remember they did that with the new Roseanne relaunch. Oh, the Conners. They changed it to the Conners.

When she got into her situation. Now are you still cool with Cockroach? Call Anthony Payne. We're cooler as adults than we were during that time. Really? What, y'all didn't get along back then? No, no we didn't.

Not at all? No we didn't. This young ego and. Yeah, yeah. That's what it was. All right. Yeah. And it was, yeah.

Yeah, it was, it was, um. You know, when I talked about earlier, the original callbacks for Cosby, I told you, they flew in an actor from Chicago and flew in an actor from New York. Carl was the actor, they flew in from New York. So had I not auditioned for the show, Carl would have played Theo.

Damn. I had to look at you every day and see you took my part. And then I got to come back and play your best friend? Damn. So I think on one hand, that may have had something to do with it. No, that was part of it. And he had a huge ego.

From New York? Yeah, he had a huge ego. And I York? Yeah, he had a huge ego. And I didn't come from that kind of place. And the way I felt then and the way I feel now, based on my career, if anybody should walk around with a huge ego, it should be me. And if I don't roll like that, I have very little tolerance for people who roll like that. So we never really, we just never really got along back then, but we're grown now and Carl's been through a lot.

Like his journey is, it's been, he's had a journey. And as adults, we've been able to sit down and have conversations and we're in a very cool, grown man place now. Then we were teenagers and you know. I feel like you had to be broken up with something the way you signed it. I had to be broken up before?

Like with some furniture moving? No, no, no, no, it wasn't that bad. Okay, okay. It wasn't that bad. Do you still speak to anybody from the show anymore? Yeah, Keisha. Oh, so you still call Keisha? I mean, Keisha was my girl when she was four years old. It's always my little homie.

You know, we both live in Atlanta. Just Saturday, her and her husband over at our house, her daughter is a couple of months older than my daughter, and our daughters absolutely love each other. So it's very surreal. Because Keisha and I, we'll look at our daughters playing and look at each other like, yo, this is bananas. But yeah.

That's dope. Yeah, so she's the one I talk to the most. But we're all cool. I mean, we had an experience that no one else in the world has had. So that experience has really bonded us forever. So even if we don't talk for a year, whenever we talk, it's just always love.

And never will have again, because I tell people all the time, that 80s, 90s celebrity was different. There's not too many people, black or white, that was that famous in the 80s and 90s who aren't different. There's not too many people, black or white, that was that famous in the 80s and 90s who aren't icons. You might can run for an office. But I was social media- And win, I'm serious.

Without the internet back then. I'm not even joking. It's facts. You possibly, what was the difference between now and then, celebrity-wise? Social media. Social media changed the whole game. For me, what I started to say earlier,

growing up here in New York in the 80s, being on that show, for me, it was the time of my life. And partially because I, you know, I'm 14, 15 years old, I'm in the area, I'm in Studio 54. I'm at Latin Quarter. Like, I'm in all these places I'm not supposed to be. Mm-hmm. So there was so much of the being, the celebrityhood, if you will,

that I enjoyed so much. But because of not just the success of the show, but what the show represented, I also understood that when I walked through the world, I was not only representing my mother and my father, I was also representing the show, but what the show represented, I also understood that when I walked through the world, I was not only representing my mother and my father, I was also representing the show and everything the show stood for. So it allowed me to not be a knucklehead,

like be able to enjoy everything, but responsibly. And, you know, do stuff under the radar. But even whatever I was doing under the radar wasn't like knucklehead stuff. And you know, my parents had instilled a foundation, you know, my foundation of who I was, was very strong. I was gonna ask you, you never got caught up in the drug world or the alcohol?

Cause Studio 54, like like what is back then was No, I could be around it, but it just wasn't that wasn't me I mean, you know, look my father named me after Malcolm X in the Majum all my father was not playing So that's what I say like like before the fame my foundation was so solid That I could be I could be around all that stuff and not have to participate in that. So to be able to enjoy everything that being famous had to offer without being a knucklehead. And again, being in New York is different from growing up on television in LA. Because in LA, your best friend is on the same lot on stage next door.

Whereas here in New York, there weren't other shows here. So I wasn't hanging out with actors. Now I gotta give all props to your parents though, because even when you talk to somebody like Kim Field, it's the same thing. She gives all her credit to her mom, because y'all had every right to wild out. Y'all were the biggest things moving.

Yeah, but we also came on the heels of Todd Bridges and Dana Plato. So we overlapped their journey. So I always felt like, well, we got no excuse. You learned from that. Yeah. Like you hear about stuff throughout history, but this was happening right now. I'm looking at tie bridges.

So there was really no excuse for us to wall out like that. But again, I also say because we lived in New York and not LA, we weren't hanging around other Hollywood kids. When we were shooting in Brooklyn, the NBC studios on Avenue M and East 14th Street, they didn't have a commissary. So at lunch, we had to go out into the neighborhood and get whatever we were gonna eat.

We moved to Kaufman Astoria, their commissary was whack, so we went out into the neighborhood and got what we could get our lunch. So it was just a very different experience that we had being able to grow up in New York rather than grow up in television in Hollywood. You said something earlier, and I wanted to ask you about, and you were saying that when you were promoting

your jazz album, a lot of these outlets were saying that the only way that you could come up here is if you asked a question, if you answered a question about Bill Cosby. How were you able to navigate all those questions? Because although you have your own stuff going on, you're doing plays, you're acting, you're doing movies, sitcoms, you have your music,

but you almost kinda wanna be like, I get it, but this is what I'm here for. So how did you navigate through all that without going down those lanes? By turning the, by whatever the question is, answering it, you know, the best way I could. Like, I'm not even- They want to know, did you see him do this?

What about this? Yeah. And the reality is, I'm not in a position, like whatever it is you're trying to ask, I don't know. I was, when I was a kid. And again, I, you know, that was was in this his dad, you know, so I am not in a position to defend him at all and there's no need for me to try to throw him under the bus because the rest of the world is doing that and

you know like like, you know, the real shit is I know what everybody else knows and Everybody else knows what the press has told them. So I don't really have a real ground to stand on to speak on it as much as anybody else does. And you might be biased because you saw a whole different side of him that none of us are privy to. Yeah, yes.

And I saw a very human side of him. Like, everybody else is like, you know, he's America's favorite dad. And, you know, they... As people do with celebrities, you know, they put us on a pedestal. And again, that's why as a kid, I didn't want to be considered a role model

and be perfect, because I'm like, that's not me. But that's what as a kid, I didn't wanna be considered a role model and be perfect, that's not me. But that's what we do to people. So while everyone is, you know, rah rah rah, I'm like, he's a man. He's got his own fault and whatever faults I saw, though it wasn't that, I, you know, like, mm-hmm. I saw a man.

So it's a different experience for me than it is for everybody else. I've always loved how black your name is, man. And finding out that you named after Michael Jackson, you said, what me, Abou Jamal? Ammar Jamal. Ammar Jamal. Okay, I'm not familiar with Ammar Jamal.

Ammar Jamal, he's a renowned jazz pianist. Got you. But he's a, if you could be a jazz pianist and be militant as fuck, that's a Majumal. Yeah, my dad was, I used to go to Chicago during the summers with my dad. And during my summer vacations, he had this thick book called Great American Negroes.

And they had chapters on Langston Hughes, Richard Wright, and Ray McLeod Bethune, Marian Anderson. And he would make me read these chapters and write book reports. And this is during my summer vacation. I'm six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years old. I'm like, I don't wanna, but it's my dad, so I have to. But he was hardcore on making sure

that I understood my history and understood where I came from. And also, he was... He went to Lincoln University, and he was there with Gil Scott Heron and Brian Jackson. Jesus. And my dad went to Lincoln because Langston went to Lincoln. So, the whole poetry thing that I do,

like, I was really... I was a poet before I an actor, because my father was instilling all of these things in me and he was doing it through the arts. My favorite book, I remember being in fifth grade and I used to carry around this book, Poems on the Life and Death of Malcolm X. I used to have it on my desk at school and kids would laugh and tease me like, oh, somebody wrote a book about you? Ha ha ha. And I'm in fifth grade and I'm realizing, oh somebody wrote a book about you, ha ha ha. And I'm in fifth grade and I'm realizing, wow,

not only do these kids not even know who Malcolm X is, if they're reading poetry, they're not reading poetry as sophisticated as I am. And it was then, like that was when it registered for me what my father was doing. Like all those summers of not wanting to read these books and write these book reports, I understood what he was instilling in me.

And then when I was about 15, you know, the show's popping and now I'm going to schools, I'm talking to kids, I'm in churches, I'm talking to kids. And it was, that's when it hit me, how my dad named me and what he was doing. Because now I'm having this influence talking to young people. I remember being 15 years old,

I called my dad, I was like, yo man, you set me up. And he laughed, he was like, you damn right. For greatness though. Yeah, and he didn't even know, he didn't know that I was gonna have this platform or what my platform was gonna be, but yeah, he set me up for greatness.

Whatever my path was gonna be, he set me up for that. Why why when it came to musical expression? It was jazz Cuz you you know, you you a hip hop baby. Like you came up in the hip hop Yeah, like why did you rap about a month ago? Rap he was rapping. Yes Legends when he was naming all the names Spoken word for that, but that's a playoff for DMX, When he was naming all the names? I wouldn't call that rap. He was rapping in there, yes he was. No, okay so. He put it together. That's more spoken word. But that's a play off of DMX, but he was rapping.

That's not me. That's not me. That's not you? What you mean that's not you? No, that was a, that's this cat on Instagram, Cashflow Harlem. He put that video out, right? And I would see this video

and people were doing these remix videos. So you see the video on one side and you see people just kind of- Bopping their head. Oh, got you, got you. Nobody's saying the names. They just kind of nodding. Bopping their head, yeah.

And there was one guy, he was counting names, but then he'd lose count. Like, that's it. And I was like, that's it? So I was like, you know, I'ma take the time, I'ma memorize what he's doing, and then I'm gonna make it a challenge. Nobody took me up on a challenge,

but the video went viral. That's the first time, I never even knew somebody else made it. I thought it was you. I thought it was you. That was not me. That was not me. Wow.

No. Why jazz though? So the jazz, so it's, when I started my band, you know, I was always doing poetry, or I was in the spoken word scene, I was doing spoken word with other bands and whatnot. But when I started my band, it was to, I was playing bass. I wanted to do this jazz funk kind of thing.

And then ultimately I ended up infusing my poetry with my own band. And neo soul was big at the time. And people, because of the spoken word and what I was doing, they wanted to call it Ne-Yo Soul. And at the time I was like, nah, Ne-Yo Soul's a fad. I don't want to be associated with a fad because when that runs out,

people might not be as interested in what I'm doing. If I call it jazz funk, then I could, it's something I could grow into. So when I'm 50, 60 years old, I could still be doing that. And at the time, now mind you, I'm 26, I'm like 28 now. At the time, I was like, besides, no one's gonna wanna hear a dude rapping at 50 years old. Now, fast forward, fast forward, you know,

Cass is still nice, but at 28, we didn't see it, we couldn't see that. Correct. But, so the jazz funk spoken word was just kind of my way of having this lane, but it's really, what I do is really, it's, you know, it's soul R&B and hip hop at the end of the day. Cause I'm not, though I'm a jazz student, I wouldn't consider myself a jazz musician,

but I just wanted to use that title because I didn't want to get lumped in in neo-soul, I didn't want to just call it, because it's not just R&B, it's not just, and it's not just spoken word, it's not just hip hop, it's really a combination of all of that. So when I describe it, I describe it as a jazz funk

spoken word band, but it's probably more of a R&B soul spoken word band. And hiding in plain view, it's Grammy nominated, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How'd that feel? Yeah, it's dope. Where, where, where? I got a Grammy in 2015 with Robert Glasper

and Layla Hathaway. Man, I did not know that. Yeah, on Robert's Black Radio 2 album, he does a cover of Stevie Wonder's Jesus Children of America, and Layla sings, and then I do a poem in tribute to the kids from Sandy Hook. And in 2015, that won for best traditional R&B performance. Oh, wow.

So for this album, Hiding in Plain View, which is my fourth album, for that to get Grammy nominated, it takes it to a whole nother level. Of course, getting a Grammy, that's amazing. It means everything. But to have my own work, and my own work that I did most of the production on myself, even though I don't do this for validation,

it's so validating, you know? And it feels great. Congratulations. Thank you, man. Thank you. Now, another thing that people might not know, the Magic School Bus. Yeah. What made might not know, the Magic School Bus. Yeah.

What made you get involved with the Magic School Bus? I've been trying to do voiceover also my whole career. So I get voiceover work here and there, but it's a nut I'm still trying to crack. But I would say, I know you cats are busy, but whenever you get a chance, I implore you to listen to Hiding in Plain View.

I definitely will. Because it's an album that I say, it's an album that can shift the way we raise black boys. On the album, I have featured throughout the album, is award-winning novelist, and he's the assistant professor of African-American studies at Clark Atlanta, Dr. Daniel Black.

And I have this one piece after this poem, A Sante Sana, it's a long music bit, and I knew I wanted to get a statement from him, because he's just a, he's a beast. And we had this hour-long conversation that I recorded, I knew I wanted to get a statement from him, because he's just a beast. And we had this hour long conversation that I recorded, but he dropped so much knowledge that I had to put him throughout the whole album. And I would dare say, I would go as far to say

that Hiding in Plain View is one of the most important albums to come out in 2022. And a lot of that I attribute to him and the knowledge he's dropping because like the album opens, the first track is called Love Song and it's just him. And he says, the thing about a black boy is you don't necessarily want to beat a black boy. What you want to do is you want to love him so divinely. You want to love him so fiercely that your disappointment will kill him.

You want to adore him so much that the last thing he wants to do is disappoint you. Like that's how the album opens. So this is an album, as I said, it's an opportunity, it provides a shift in how we raise our black boys, which will then have a profound impact on how black boys relate to each other and black girls, which in turn have an even more profound impact on how black men relate to each other and how they relate

to black women. And it can all be a significant step in our own self-healing. So when I talk to people about the album, I say this album is for us. It's for black boys, it's for black men, it's for black people, it's for non-black people who have the foresight to see that our self-healing is an invitation for them to examine their own necessary healing. Why do you call it Hiding in Plain View? Because it's something that we all do.

There's actually a poem, the title track on the album is called Hiding in Plain View, and that's the only piece without music. I just do that poem strictly a cappella. And I talk about, you know, Hiding in Plain View is something we all do. We all wear these masks, right? Because we're all trying to hide what we think

other people won't like about us. You know, I spent, you know, six years in a relationship, you know, halfway hiding because there were things I didn't think that, you know, she would like about me. And at some point, I allowed myself to be disrespected. But I had to look at it, I'm allowing myself to be disrespected because I'm disrespecting myself

because I'm hiding things about myself that I'm afraid that she's not gonna like. And in a relationship, that's the last place you should fear being vulnerable. So that poem, Hiding a Plain View, is all about vulnerability and how vulnerability, you know, vulnerability is a scary thing. Even when you're on the mend.

Black boys boast bravado not to seem broken, and often so do black men. So that poem itself, just in itself, I get so many responses from people who aren't black that that resonates with. So it's an album that on the surface, it seems like I'm only talking about black boys. There is a universalality to the album, the responses, like I said,

I've been getting from non-black people, it resonates with them too. I know you probably gotta go, but when it comes to healing, what was it? Therapy? Was it a spiritual leader? Was it just, what was it? People who I call spiritual leaders, my wife is a, she's got a master's in marriage and family therapy. She's getting her PhD in clinical psychology. Oh yeah, okay. It's her home. It's home.

And not even that, and not that she's been doing work on me, but just I watch her, and I watch her with our daughter. So that's what's helped me like presently, but even before she and I met, you know, once I got out of broke up with my six year relationship, I spent like two years. I spent two years like a man who had been in a six year relationship. And then at some point I was like, need to I need to stop like I need to go and hide us and not do any dating you know not be in a relationship not in dating try not to have sex but I had a there was a space where I needed to get clarity for myself and the only way I was going to get that

clarity was by you know sitting down and really dealing with whatever things in here that I was busying myself from dealing with. I was keeping busy as a response to trauma. A lot of times. All the time. All the time, yeah. All the time.

We gotta talk about Accused. The reason you're here, you got a new show on F.I.S.E called Accused, it starts January 22nd. Yeah, man. Now tell us about Accused, because there's not much on it. I looked at the trailers, we all looked at the trailers. We seeT. called Accused, it starts January 22nd. Now tell us about Accused, because there's not much on it. I looked at the trailers, we all looked at the trailers. We see you in an orange jumpsuit, so break down Accused.

So Accused is a courtroom anthology series. So every episode is a standalone episode, like Twilight Zone or Black Mirror. My particular episode is, I play a man whose daughter is sexually accosted in a park. And I choose to meet out justice myself. Handle things on your own. Yeah.

And we know how that typically goes. Which is interesting because we always talk about, man, if somebody touches my daughter, da da da da da. And I remember saying that like probably 10 years ago, before I even really thought I was ever gonna really have kids. I remember saying, man, yeah, man, you know, if I have a daughter, man, I'll go to jail for my daughter. And he said, yeah, and what good would you be to your daughter then?

Right? And that's's changed my whole, like I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely right. Like we talked that, but. No, I still feel like that though. I got four daughters, I still feel like that. Same, I got four daughters. No matter how much therapy you do on yourself, no matter how much healing you get,

no matter how high your emotional IQ gets, I don't know what you would do in that situation. Right, right. And but his point was, what good are you gonna be to your daughter when you're sitting there in jail? That's true. Like now you really cannot protect your daughter. Yeah. Damn.

You know, like that's- I think about it like that. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, right. And he told me that like 10 years ago, and I was like, ah, that kinda changes the, doesn't make it any easier, but, I mean, the feeling is still there, but it makes you really go like

Yeah, so you only on one episode it's only one episode one episode, okay, but it's a it's a it's a powerful episode It's it's hard to watch because of the the subject matter And I think it's that's what it is with all the episodes They're tough to watch because subject matter is really tough, but the show is really good and I'm very proud of the work on that show. And again, it's just another side. With The Resident as well, it's just another side of me that people don't normally get to see because of most of the roles I get cast for. I was going to ask, before you get up outta here,

would you mind doing a poem? Why don't we just play one from the album? You can do one, you can do one. Do it live, he's here. Would you rather do one or play one? This is your first guess. Actually, I'd like to do one and you play one. Okay, let's do it.

For you, done deal. Done deal, I need both. Done deal. All right, my man, I appreciate it. So to the gentleman that calls every morning with a poem, this is how it's done. I appreciate it. Okay, this piece is

Asante Sana. Abadagani, comrade. What, you still on that freedom shit? Word? Like, you know me in this poetry, we still be on that weedum shit. That birthing inspirational couplets and breedum shit. That I spit cats should heedum shit. That words can't break my bones, but if you cut me homes, I bleed them.

Shit. Atonement for the masses of hard assasses and heads that tread on civil liberties in the most uncivilized of fashion is said to be dead. Can we afford to be dumb for free? See, that's the question I'm asking as I beg for an ounce of truth amongst the aloof surrounding me. My vices are proof that these demons keep hounding me. Reality keeps pounding me, almost astounding me into this strange hypocrisy.

You see, I preach the same hope that I'm losing daily, like my religion. People how deep I bear my soul. I stand on the precipice of this crossroads. It's like I want to give my life to the cause, but which one? Ignorance is running so ridiculously rampant, I can't tell if I'm hating or merely debating just for fun. But I do know my heart heaves heavy upon hearing the fluttering hum of the feeble footsteps of fear, stamping out the ferocious flames of our dogged desire and determination to outpace the perilous prophecy our captors

have programmed to be our faith, and thus our fate. I know my soul, soul, rise with anxiety aches. Lies no longer need disguise when they start looking like the truth. Like how do we ignore cries of ill-guided youths spitting dope bars of self-hate over beats that bang harder than strange fruit hangs. Meanwhile her breasts hang and her booty bangs harder than the gun claps of rival gangs fighting over territory they don't even own. And in magic cities everywhere, she feeds her babies based on her ability to shake what her mama gave her because her pops was too busy breaking in his disappearing act to save

her from these mean streets that eat the meek in one swallow. Lies no longer need disguise when the truth is viewed as hollow through the eyes that need it most. We descendants of stolen legacies, children of ancestors who cannot be broken, birthers and bearers of a culture that has been repeatedly robbed and ransacked to feed the spiritually famine like a black woman's bosom. We who become a pre-existing condition simply because we pre-exist. We who realize we are worthy.

We are the guardians. We are the gardeners. We are the soil. We are the toil. We are the protectors of our seeds who need to be protected, who need to see true love and black excellence redirected not through fame and fortune, but redirected through character and deed. through character and deed. And indeed, it is those who stand on the front line, fighting for the minds of our young, black, and gifted. It is you who are an inspiration to me, because you are the revolution we do not see on TV. Asante, Sana.

Nice. Ladies and gentlemen, Malcolm Jamorah Warner. This interview, this whole conversation just is a reinforcement to just be intentional about your art. Yeah, word is bond. Everything you've been talking about from the Cosby Show to your spoken word,

just be intentional about your art because this is the way we reach people. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And especially now, especially in the music business, or really any art, no one is making the money that they were making before. And now with streaming, we don't make money off streaming, right? So this is an opportunity for artists

to just really be about the art. You know, like that's really all we have. Like what legacy can you leave? And I'm just really big on, there's so much nonsense out there. We talk about the part of hip hop that's just trash. And I'm of the mindset of, let them have that, let's provide something else.

Let's show that there is another way to express yourself through poetry. Let's show, let's highlight, let's highlight the dope shit. That's right. And if people see enough of the dopeness, they can make a choice. All right.

Well, we appreciate you for joining us, brother. Joe, thank you for having me. And what song of Hiding in Plainview you want us to get into? Ah, man, I should have done Hiding in Plainview you want us to get into? Ah, man I should have done Hiding in Plainview because that doesn't have music. Asante Sana has music. What's your, what's usually your time length on songs?

Well we can't play a nine minute song if you got a nine minute song. No it's not nine minute but like this. Three to four? Black Fist Beautiful, that might be like six minutes. We can play some of it. Dope? Dope? Dope, yeah, dope, dope, dope. We can play some of it. Dope.

Dope. We can play some of it. We can play two, three minutes of it. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See the thing about my, you know, at least this particular album, it's hard to do snippets to get the full story. I get it, I get it.

But you know what though, but honestly, on the real, what would be dope for me, if y'all listen to it and decide which one resonates. resonates with you enough to play. Enough said. Yeah, I appreciate it. Ladies and gentlemen. I definitely appreciate it. Malcolm Jamon Warner. Yo, thanks for having me.

Mr. Breakfast Club, good morning. Join I Heart Radio and Sarah Spayne in celebrating the one year anniversary of I Heart Women's Sports. With powerful interviews and insider analysis, our shows have connected fans with the heart of women's sports. In just one year, the network has launched 15 shows and built a community united by passion.

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control. Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family. Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal bootcamp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced.

He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you. Listen to Shock Incarceration on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up guys. Welcome to the Augusto Papa podcast. The go-to spot for everything. Musica Mexicana. We're proud Mexican Americans who live and breathe this music.

We started this podcast to share and discuss our views of Musica Mexicana. Whether you like to vibe to Peso Pluma, Los Alegres del Barranco, Arel Camacho, or put Ivan Cornejo when you get any feels, then this podcast is for you. Well actually Peso was supposed to be on Chinito's album. The song with Drake was supposed to be with Peso. Listen to Agus Sopa on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.