The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - A Bridge Special: The Erin O'Toole Interview

Episode Date: July 23, 2021

The election campaign could start in less than a month, so what does Erin O'Toole stand for? The man who leads the Conservatives wants to be prime minister but what do you actually know about what he would do if you gave him the job?

Hello there, I'm Peter Mansbridge. This is a special edition of The Bridge. We're going to talk to Aaron O'Toole, the leader of the Conservative Party, the man who wants to become Prime Minister. We'll talk to him right after this. A can of pet food, where every ingredient matters. Some companies like to brag about their first ingredient, but the A Can of Pet Food team is proud of their entire bag. That's because every recipe has been thoughtfully sourced and carefully crafted with the highest quality ingredients,

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That's why we put out a recovery plan in March, five point plan. So that's really our priority. It's been a challenging year for our country. And we're hopeful that there's light on the end of the tunnel. Mr. Trudeau may put his own personal interest ahead of the national interest, but we will be ready if one comes, put it that way. But I really do think we have to help some of the businesses holding on by a thread. There's still i really do think we have to help some of the businesses holding on by a thread there's there's still risks out there and we we have to be better prepared but does the national interest mean there shouldn't be an election right now i mean and i ask that simply because you know they have been managing um the one of the biggest crisis the country's faced in the last half century at least you can make your own judgments about whether they've done a good job or a bad job.

But doesn't there come a time when the people should actually give a thumbs up, thumbs down on how they've been handling this pandemic? Well, if there is an election, Peter, I think the election needs to be who's best poised to have an economic recovery in all parts of the country, all regions. Because think back before COVID, it's hard to do that sometimes. Who's best poised to have an economic recovery in all parts of the country, all regions?

Because think back before COVID. It's hard to do that sometimes. Thinking back before COVID, we saw $160 billion of capital investment leave Canada. We saw illegal rail blockades. We saw people giving up in some parts of the country on the country itself. And the government was running $25 billion deficits in good economic times. There was uncertainty. So I think the Liberals weren't managing the economy well before the crisis. We need a serious approach. And that's why we have a five-point Canada recovery plan. So I think the election, if it does come in the short term, will be about

who can get us moving again, who can unite some of the divisions in the country, who can run an ethical government for a change. That will be, I think, what the election's about. Okay, well, if that's what it's going to be about, obviously, it'll come down to who they trust, right, and whose arguments they buy, the people buy, during a campaign. You've been leader of the Conservative Party now for 10, almost 11 months. Actually, it'll be a year at the end of August since you took over the party. And one has to wonder how you're being seen by the public. I mean, there are a lot of polls out there, and we all know the value of polls. But most of them suggest that you're not doing that well in terms of how the people feel about you now why do you think that is

well what the polls actually show is most Canadians don't know who Aaron O'Toole is unlike Mr. Trudeau I haven't been known since the day I was born. I'm a kid from Bowmanville, Ontario, served in the military, worked in the private sector, worked my way up in politics from the back corner by the curtains when I won my by-election to being able to be leader of the opposition, all based on my commitment, my track record, and my approach of bringing people together. So I think it's been frustrating as a COVID-era leader. As you said, I just started some national touring after 10 months. We've all had to pivot and persevere this last year.

Canadians will tune in and look at the options ahead of them in the next election. And you can have Mr. Trudeau with his constant personal ethical violations and scandals and the wee charity and all that no plan for the future or a new conservative leader who comes from a background more Canadians can actually relate to who's going to fight for them. And that's, that's our recovery plan. But you don't think that they've had a chance. The people have had a chance. I know they haven't seen you because you haven't been able to travel. Your stuff's been virtual, as so many people have been. But they've heard you. You know, you've been in the House of Commons.

You've talked in the House of Commons virtually and in person. They've heard some of your positions on different things. And they're not buying it. It's not like you've been frozen on the numbers. You're not where your predecessor was. You're down quite a bit in most polls. In fact, barely ahead of the NDP. 16-point gap in the last national poll.

And that's a Nanos poll. They're a pretty well-regarded polling outfit. That's a big gap between you and the Liberals. I would have loved a gap that small in my leadership race where Peter, no one said I could overcome the delta between myself and my competitor. And with commitment, a team and hard work, we did. That's my record. And Mr. Trudeau knows that. That's why most days, Peter, I was in the House of Commons. He certainly wasn't. They never showed up. There were days there wasn't a single liberal

in the House of Commons. In fact, they tried to shut down Parliament, as you know, and after months of cover up, they're actually suing Parliament now to keep the cover up over the Winnipeg lab scandal and the Chinese military scientists. So I think when Canadians come out of the pandemic and look at the options in the election, I'm very positive they're going to see a positive choice. There's a Conservative Party that's growing the tent, that's tackling the problems of today, including climate change. We put out a very detailed policy several months ago.

I'm proud of our team. I'm proud of my record. And I'm in this for Canada, not for the Friends of the Liberal Party. And I think that will be a contrast that Mr. Trudeau won't welcome because the one person who he has kept busy has been the ethics commissioner. All right. Well, you've talked about some of your policy positions. And I guess the question is that some people suggest it's not you that's the problem with the Canadian people. It's your party that's the problem, because at times they seem to be fighting against each other, not speaking from the same position on key issues. You mentioned climate change. Well, you do have a climate change position, and yet the party in its convention couldn't even agree that there was such

a thing as climate change. Now, I know there's arguments back and forth about exactly what that resolution was, but that's the way it came off. The same with the issue around conversion therapy. You were on one side of it. Most of your caucus was on another side of it, including the deputy leader. So this is confusing to the public as to, you know, when you say they want to know where you stand, well, they're going to find out where you stand, but it may not be the same position as a lot of the people who are running for your party.

No, I think they would be surprised that Mr. Trudeau has actually used issues for political gain. And unfortunately, some communities, including the LGBTQ community, have been used by Mr. Trudeau. You're wrong, Peter, about our approach on conversion therapy. Our caucus thinks it's a harmful practice. In fact, almost all of us voted for it at second reading, a ban. And we said, let's work with the government to end this practice. And Mr. Trudeau, who had already delayed the bill when he shut down Parliament,

he actually chose not to bring it forward. That's why the bill didn't pass, Peter. So I think people are getting tired of this Trudeau approach of always trying to divide and gain. Yeah, but the first vote on that was pretty clear. The numbers in your caucus were not in favor of your position. Most of them were against. No, no, we almost all were at second reading. So Mr. Trudeau had to introduce the bill twice, Peter, because of prorogation for the WE scandal. When it came at second reading, I spoke on the bill.

It's important to me one of my leadership teams is our first openly gay conservative mp we've actually been holding mr trudeau to account on another broken promise to the lgbtq community on the unfair discriminatory blood ban against gay men so i'm actually going to hold mr trudeau to account because my record is stronger than his on standing up for the LGBTQ community. Okay, so why don't most people have that impression of you and your party that on some of the key social and environmental issues that you're not in line with each other, let alone in line with where a lot of public opinion is. That is the view that many Canadians have. Why have they?

That's what I'm looking forward to getting to speak to more Canadians, to let them know in March, for example, Peter, we launched the most comprehensive environmental plan released before an election in Canadian political history. Climate change is important to me, not just as a politician. I talk about it with my 14-year-old daughter, Molly. I believe that. We're going to tackle this because in some areas, we do have to earn some trust. We weren't seen as putting forward serious enough proposals in 15 and 19. I'm changing that. And in the election, people will see that there's a new conservative leader with a new approach. And I want them to judge our Canada recovery plan. I want them to

judge our environmental plan based on today and what we need to do for the future. They will judge you also on how many people are lined up behind you in agreement with you on those key positions, right? And I mean, some of the reasons in 15 and 19, they weren't the positions that you would have preferred they'd been is because there was a major tug within the party not to take those positions. Let me ask you this about Aaron O'Toole, because I had somebody mentioned this to me the other day, that many people who know you say that you are not a right-wing conservative. You're more like a kind of Bill Davis conservative,

the Ontario premier through the 70s and part of the 80s. It was kind of more in the middle in terms of the Conservative Party. But that was the 1970s. Do you actually have to be a right-wing conservative to lead the Conservative Party in the 2020s? I have a lot of respect for Bill Davis, Brian Mulroney, Stephen Harper. You know, I'm my own person, Peter, but certainly my background is forged from growing up in an auto town.

It's why I'm reaching out to unions. My dad worked at General Motors in Quebec, St. Therese, and in an auto town. And it's why I'm reaching out to unions. My dad worked at General Motors in Quebec, St. Therese and in Oshawa. That's why I'm trying to forge a link between working families, working organizations, unions. I served in the military. So of course I have a deep passion

for our veterans, our history, people that serve. I also am a free market person. So I'm trying to make sure the Conservative Party of 2021 looks like the Canada of 2021 and has policy platforms that address the hopes, fears and aspirations of our country. And right now, coming out of COVID, Peter, we need a recovery plan. Our Canada recovery plan, I think, is the solution to getting people back to work, tackling the debt that's accumulated, the housing crisis,

and addressing some of the national unity issues that simply weren't there six, seven years ago. Mr. Trudeau's Ottawa knows best ideological approach has divided the country. I want to get to one of those constitutional issues in a minute because your friend and supporter, Jason Kenney, wants a constitutional issue on the table on equalization. But let me do the pandemic first. I want to know where you grade this government in terms of its handling of the pandemic situation over the last 18 to 20 months where is it a is it a pass is it

a kind of medium grade or is it a fail where do you put it i i would put it a c minus it it has been frustrating that when i called in february and for example, that we would need to use the military, our medics, our great frontline nurses and doctors for our health system if there was a surge. The Trudeau government was still saying there was no issue. They were slow on the borders at the beginning, slow on rapid tests, slow on vaccines. They partnered with China. And of course, we can't even get scrutiny of any of the documents because they've filibustered most of the attempts to actually see. They say they never partnered with China, that they never had a deal with China.

They were talking to everybody who was working on vaccines. No doubt about that. They had a deal with CanSino, Peter. They say they didn't. But let me put it this way. Who's done better than canada when i look at these numbers today this week we're right at the top of the world right in terms of vaccines single doses and fully vaccinated so they must have done something right somewhere i'm really proud of canadians Our low vaccine hesitancy is a good thing.

And both Mr. Trudeau, myself, Mr. Singh and others have all pushed and even publicized our vaccination rates. So wouldn't it have been great, Peter, if we had that same level in March? We didn't have the supply. The provinces were ready. The failure with the CanSino project, Mr. Trudeau's driving away of our pharmaceutical capacity in the last few years, led us to be late. And so look, we've tried to work with the government at all steps through the crisis. We'd approve programs, we'd then try and push to change them and improve them. We had success with the wage subsidy and others. And look, there was a crisis that all governments were a little behind in. But what really disappoints me is when it came to the vaccines, who possibly could have thought that some sort of joint venture or partnership with the Chinese state-owned enterprise was the

solution when we have two Michaels approaching a thousand days in prison, when we could have built up domestic capacity. So that I think historically will be something that held us back in our economic reopening by three to four months. You know, you really lean on this China issue, right? I mean, you're leaning on it in a number of ways just in this interview. I mean, they were one of it in a number of ways just in this interview. I mean, they were one of many different areas

Canada was trying to source for vaccines because they didn't have their own and one can be critical about that position. There's no doubt about that. And it goes back before this government, including your old government, in terms of who ended the pharmaceutical supply situation in Canada. But

nevertheless, that aside, they have to get vaccines. And they've done it. I mean, they've done it better than countries that have their own vaccines. We're way ahead of the Americans. We're on a level with the British, both of whom have their own. So, I mean, it's pretty good right now. That's because of the commitment of Canadians, Peter. That has nothing to do with the Liberal government.

The fact that we have very low vaccine hesitancy, the fact that some of the public health programs of the provinces pushing out, I think all politicians have tried to encourage vaccination. The success we're having now, and I'm very happy we're having it, don't get me wrong, is because of Canadians themselves stepping up, getting the jab.

That's what we've needed to do. The US were months ahead of us, but they're running into those large swaths of their population not being vaccinated. So variants become a risk. So look, I have to hold the government to account

and oppose. I'm the opposition leader. But with our policies, with our Canada recovery plan, with our climate change plan, which, you know, you don't hear the Liberals talking much about it anymore because our plan will meet Paris targets with much better jobs and investment numbers than Mr. Trudeau's approach. We're putting out ideas, too. So I'm not just opposing, I'm also trying to propose because Canadians need a plan. We've come through the biggest health and economic crisis in our lifetime.

We need a recovery plan. We can't trip our way through the next year or two years. We have to secure the future. You mentioned a moment ago, some of the initiatives taken by different premiers and how that's worked. Also on the whole issue of hesitancy in terms of encouraging Canadians to get their vaccines. I want to talk to you about one of them. In fact, it's the only one in the country at the moment.

That's Brian Palliser's situation in Manitoba. And you were just out west. And it seems to be a very popular program within manitoba and you you were just out west uh and it seems to be a very popular program within manitoba and that is what he calls a immunization card it's basically a vaccine passport you have proof you carried in a card that you've had both vaccines and you will need that in manitoba to get into a football game. You're an old Bomber fan. I'm an old Bomber fan.

And you can't get to watch the Bombers play unless you have that card proving you had two vaccines, which is going to eliminate a number of people. But it's not just football games. It's major sporting events. It's the theater, both live theater and movie theaters, some restaurants. Are you in favor of that? Are you in favor of having a form of a vaccine passport that Canadians should have to get into various events? Well, you mentioned what Manitoba is doing, what the palestine government is doing in quebec they have qr codes having been uh vaccinated in ontario i have my emailed proof of vaccination right but

this goes another step the manitoba one is you don't get in unless you've got that card you have to prove you're vaccinated, fully vaccinated. Now, do you think that's reasonable? I mean, it's reasonable, apparently. Sorry, go ahead. You pointed to something that I think many of the provinces have been frustrated with because the slow securing of vaccines meant that when the third wave came, who has to make the tough decisions about restrictions, locking down retail and hairdresser and restaurants? It was the premiers

who were desperate for supply earlier. So now if the premiers want to make decisions about access to sporting events or live theater, that is something we have to respect. That is not Ottawa sets a policy because the provinces not only run their health system, they have to make the tough decisions about restrictions. And I know that from being in Ontario where my kids were doing school from home for most of the year. It was very tough on them.

So I think whatever the premiers choose is best. I know, but what do you choose? Yeah, I understand that it's a provincial responsibility and a provincial decision. But how do you feel about that? Do you think it is reasonable? It's reasonable for people who don't want to get the vaccine to say, hey, I don't want it. I want the vaccine.

But is it reasonable for either governments or other people to say, hey, if you don't have a vaccine, I'm not going in that place with you. I'm not going to be, I don't want to go in that restaurant to be served unless everybody in there is being fully vaccinated and can prove it and will prove it. Do you think that is a reasonable position to take? I've said since the beginning of the crisis, and especially when the vaccines were in the pipeline, that Canadians have rights and responsibilities, Peter. And Canadians will make the decision and they have the right to not be vaccinated. I think it's not the right decision.

I've been encouraging people to be vaccinated. But if you make that decision, there's responsibilities you have to not infect or spread to other people. So with those rights and responsibilities may come limitations. We know with with foreign travel, for example, some countries will require that QR code or that proof of vaccination before you go in. So you're going to have limitations. In terms of who imposes the limitations, Peter, each province will try and come up with something that works for them best. But I've always said, this is me as the military veteran, the lawyer, and the sort of civil libertarian. With rights come responsibilities. I think never more than now is it important for people to realize that. That's why I always say the vaccines are safe. They're effective. They are the best way for us to turn the corner in this crisis by having herd immunity. And so

it's been good to see Canada be lagging, but then surging past the u.s because most canadians have taken that right responsibility approach seriously you know what many listeners are saying here they he just won't answer the actual direct question on this issue of vaccine passports whether they should should be out there you're giving the responsibility to the premiers. I get that. I understand that. But it does kind of lead to... It is their responsibility.

I know, but it also... My kids have an immunization passport card now. It's not run by Ottawa, Peter. It's run by the provinces. And I'll tell you... Yeah, but it's not as strict as the Manitoba one. We have three active separation movements in our country right now. Three, in three different provinces.

The last thing we need after six years of Mr. Trudeau dividing this country is more Ottawa knows best dictating what you're going to do in Winnipeg versus Halifax versus Quebec City. So what I try and do as a federal leader is excel and deliver in our area of federal responsibility. I would have delivered on rapid testing at our borders and airports. In fact, I pledged that over a year ago. I would have delivered medical support through our military months before Mr. Trudeau for the long-term care and the CSSL days, that hesitancy of the federal government to show some leadership did cost us

throughout this pandemic. And I think it's why having a prime minister who's experienced, who's done things before public life, I think is critical in a crisis and for the long-term planning of the country. Does it bother you that we have, that we live in a kind of checkerboard country where in fact, you can't have different rules and different regulations on something as simple as this? I mean, Manitoba is going one way. Alberta is very different. Same, you know, also a conservative government. Ontario is kind of in the middle. Quebec is thinking of going the Manitoba way. So you have this checkerboard Canada.

You have different rules in different places. I understand that's our country. That is our constitution. But do you think it's time we kind of looked at that, especially that this crisis has opened the door to that kind of a conversation, that we should all be the same no we actually have to respect what our country is we wouldn't have had a canada but for that respect for both provincial and federal jurisdiction the respect for the two founding languages the civil code that was

preserved in quebec that's our history i'm actually very proud of it. If we actually collaborate and Ottawa doesn't view itself as it does with Mr. Trudeau as the parent to the children provinces, that's what some premiers have been suggesting under Mr. Trudeau. What we need is partnerships, including with Indigenous peoples, so that we can actually have best practices, we can collaborate. And after the pandemic, and this is the fourth pillar of our Canada recovery plan, make sure we're never unprepared in critical gaps at borders, at testing, these sorts of things, old age homes and long-term care homes. We have to work together to make sure we're ready for something in the future. You mentioned the Indigenous issue, and I want to talk about that for a moment um what would you do right now everybody

agrees the party's all agreed the people seem to agree that it's time now to do something about this relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous that there are issues that have to be dealt with and they need to be dealt with now not like a promise of a government that comes in and says we're going to deal with this and by you know the next mandate we'll we'll have it all resolved they want it like now and there's a real push and you've seen it out there from young people that this is time this is our time so what do you do you know day one month one as a prime minister o'toole what do you do on the indigenous issue i already did on day one peter my first day as opposition leader my first question was on indigenous reconciliation and a call to action for health care i appreciate that

but when you're whole when you've got the controls the levers of power what do you do like what do you actually do on this issue we act and i've been saying this to mr trudeau for three months there are six calls to action specifically related to missing children at former residential school sites. I asked Mr. Trudeau and I pledged our complete support, bipartisan support, funding support to move on the calls to action 71 to 76. That TRC report actually is the roadmap to provide a bit of healing and closure for families and First Nations in those former residential school sites. And then what I would like to do is actually have more Indigenous leaders forging the way forward and actually holding the federal government to account directly. So when Mr. Trudeau makes a commitment on safe drinking water, makes a commitment on all

94 calls to action, but then has no plan to get there. I would like more Indigenous leaders at the table to forge the plan and to provide the governance to make sure we deliver. And so this is important to me. It's something I did some work on in the private sector before office. I think all Canadians have to take a role in the path to reconciliation. And in an election, whenever it comes, we're going to have some very exciting policies, some of which I've been talking about for four or five years, in a real way to make sure the next intergenerational transfer for Indigenous people should not be trauma. It should be opportunity. It should be wealth creation. It should be full participation in Canada. And that will be central to my government. trauma. It should be opportunity. It should be wealth creation. It should be full participation

in Canada. And that will be central to my government. I mentioned earlier about Premier Kenney. He's going to hold a referendum on equalization this fall. He wants it to be a top constitutional priority. Do you agree with that? Do you think it's a top constitutional priority? Well, there's hundreds of thousands of people who've lost their jobs in Alberta in the last number of years, Peter. There is a sense of hopelessness. I met a veteran in Nisku, Alberta, served the country for three decades, giving up on that country because of what he has seen from Mr. Trudeau and Ottawa holding back his province. So we have to restore faith in our federation. And I think any discussion a province wants to bring to the

table that's impacting their people, we not only need to respect, we need to understand. I announced that I would follow the Premier's direction, the Council of the Federation, to fix the fiscal stabilization program. And that's one step to address the feelings of unfairness when there's a drop in resource revenues. But I think we have to recommit to this country and to respect one another. And that will be central as well to our approach to heal the unity divide right now. But he wants it to be a top constitutional priority. And I guess that's my question to you. Where do you rank it? Is the equalization issue more important than the Indigenous rights issue in terms of a constitutional priority? Is it more important than getting Quebec's signature on the constitution? Where do you rank it,

the Alberta request? Look, I don't want to get into Meech Lake, Charlottetown style constitutional discussions. But as I said, our federation is a partnership and we have to respect the priorities of each partner. And so that's something I'm committed to. So if Albertans through their elected representatives, Peter, are saying this is our top priority, we have to examine it as a country and be respectful of what they vote on and try and say, how can we restore faith? The fiscal stabilization step is, I think, a step that almost equates to a bit of an equalization rebate for when resource revenues dropped. The Indigenous peoples and the Indigenous reconciliation is separate. I think that's something we all have to commit to. We haven't lived up to our constitutional and our treaty rights for Indigenous peoples. And I think we all have to commit because we've seen instances, even recently, the case of Joyce Esherquan in Quebec in the healthcare system. We're watching that inquiry closely.

I think all provinces and territories agree reconciliation needs to be fundamental. But you can't do everything at once, especially when it deals with the constitution. I too don't want to get into a discussion about Meach or Charlottetown or any of the other ones. But the fact is, you know, as well as I know, and as most Canadians know, that as soon as you talk about changing the constitution is you know as well as i know and as most canadians know that as soon as you talk about changing the constitution and equalization as part of it you um you're

opening a can of worms you know to use a tired old cliche and it it stops so you need priorities and so there's three of them there and i guess at some point you'll tell me which one is your number one priority. We're almost out of time, and you've been very generous with your time, and I really appreciate it. I want to ask you about something I'm sure you've witnessed a lot of this week, and that has been the scorching weather in Western Canada. And as a result, forest fires. We've seen floods in Europe. We've seen a lot of different things. And most analysts tend to agree that these are all happening because of climate change. Do you agree with that? Yes, there's going to be more frequent adverse weather events, storms, these heat waves and fires that will come with

them. And that's why in our climate change plan, Peter, that I launched in March, we also have components to build resiliency and some of the infrastructure investments the federal government should be undertaking should help municipalities and provinces deal with some of those adverse effects. And so we're committed to that. We've actually put a plan forward that has funding that will be directed specifically to that resiliency. When you say we're committed to it, I believe you that you're committed to this and that you believe climate change is real. Do you feel you're standing in front of a caucus and a list of candidates who believe the same thing, who believe that climate change is real? Yes.

In fact, we've run the last three elections with that position. In fact, the Paris targets that Canada signed up to under Mr. Trudeau at the beginning of his time in government were set by the previous Conservative government. Where I think we've fallen short, and I'll be honest with you, Peter, because I think you're driving at it, is in 15 and 19, we didn't put forward detailed and clear enough direction on how we would attain those targets. I have done that and we spent months not only working with industry and stakeholders, we actually engaged a leading climate change consulting firm to help us match targets and ambition. It's the most detailed policy ever produced before a campaign. And it had to be because we do have to restore a bit of trust. But as I said, I want to be able to also tell my 14 year old that we're taking it seriously.

So I invite Canadians to check it out and I will deliver on it. In a lot of areas, Mr. Trudeau promises the sun, the moon, and the stars and never delivers. It's the same. He hasn't met a single emission target in his six years as prime minister. Yeah, he wouldn't be the first politician to promise something in an election campaign and not deliver on it. And so, you know, people are writing down what you're saying, obviously, and if you win, they're going to be after you to deliver on what you promise. On that question about leadership in your party, you know, Mr. Scheer had one go at it, right?

He wins the leadership, won election. People were very disappointed within the party, thought they could win, didn't win. But it was one and done for him. Do you think that now holds true? Is that now the kind of belief for the Conservative Party that you got one shot at it and you better win? Well, when I meet some of the people in Western Canada

that are starting to give up on Canada, Peter, we have to win for the well-being of the country. I certainly don't mind pressure on my shoulders. That's why I'm putting out policy. That's why I'm recruiting tremendous candidates and putting forward an ambitious platform. When I was veterans minister, you may recall that there were wait lists, there were lawsuits, there were protests. And everyone told me, just manage this, you can't turn anything around. We built a team, dove in. And now some of those veterans that were suing the government before I assumed that leadership role are some of my good friends and biggest supporters, because they know I'm, I'm honest. I try and build consensus, but I set a real direction.

And maybe that's the big difference between Mr. Trudeau and myself. I've had to do that throughout my entire career. I'm not leader of the opposition, um, because I was born on third base. I've worked very hard to get where I am. And my ethical approach, my approach to bringing people together, I think is exactly what we need. It's also why I've put out a five-point Canada recovery plan, because I think that's what the country needs after the worst health and economic crisis in our lifetime. Do you like the guy? Because if they only listened to you talking about Justin Trudeau over the last months, it would really seem that you just don't like him. And when you do things like, you know, I wasn't born on third base, like he was, implying, doesn't sound very generous.

Do you like him? I enjoy when we speak about our kids. I respect his public service, Peter. I've always said you can be in politics and you can oppose, you can be tough, but still have respect for people. As you know, some of my charitable work before politics was honoring the public service for people in different parties than my own with the Churchill Society. I respect anyone who puts forward to serve their community or their country, even if I don't agree. I am worried about the future of the country because of this division that simply wasn't there a few years ago. But I'm an optimist. I think our best years are ahead of us.

And I think also my friend Justin Trudeau will have a bright career after politics. Listen, Aaron O'Toole, I really appreciate your time today. It's been good to talk to you, and you've had a good spirit throughout this discussion. And I've got to tell you, like I say to all the political leaders and those candidates who are running across the country, I wish them luck. And we owe them all, and you all, a lot, because it is about public service.

And you've got to stand to be countered on. You know, as John Turner used to say, if you believe in democracy, you have to participate. And people like you and everybody else who will run in this campaign, if it in fact happens next month, deserves our respect for doing just that. So, Mr. O'Toole, I appreciate talking to you. It's been good to have this opportunity. Thank you, Peter, and thank you for a lifetime of helping tell the Canadian stories. I particularly loved your 100th at Vimy Ridge and seeing some students from my own riding and the story of Sam Sharp and the stories you've told. I truly appreciate. So thank you.

It's been an honor to be able to do those kind of programs. So thanks again. All right. Aaron O'Toole, the leader of the Conservative Party, he wants to be prime minister, and he could have that opportunity in about a month's time, assuming there is another election. Well, what about his interview, the things he had to say? What was your impression of Aaron O'Toole?

Well, we're going to ask a couple of Parliament Hill veterans what their impression was of Aaron O'Toole in that interview. He's going to have a lot more interviews in the next, you know, during a campaign, so he's got to be ready for them. A lot of those questions are the kind of questions he's going to be asked. So we'll get that right after this. Okay, we're back again. Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. Well, you heard Aaron O'Toole, leader of the Conservative Party.

That's his pitch, and you'll be hearing a lot of it if the campaign starts next month, as we all expect it will. But let's find out from a couple of Parliament Hill veterans as to what they think of what we heard from Aaron O'Toole here. Althea Raj is the former Bureau Chief of the Huffington Post on Parliament Hill. Rob Russo is the former Bureau Chief of Canadian Press on Parliament Hill and at the CBC on Parliament Hill. So it's good to have both of you with us. Why don't we start, Althea, with, I guess in a way, the one thing that impressed you, surprised you, whatever,

in terms of what Aaron O o'toole had to say in his performance in that interview well right off the bat i'd say i was surprised that he couldn't give you an honest and direct answer to does he want an election campaign and i thought that i i still can't understand why he wouldn't just say, no, I personally don't want an election. I don't think it'd be good for my leadership. I'm not ready yet. But also, yes, I want an election because I hate Justin Trudeau and I don't think he should be prime minister. And I think I'd be a much better prime minister. I don't understand why that was such a struggle. And it seemed like as the interview went on, he got more and more comfortable and his answers actually seemed to get

more and more honest. You know, there were a lot of one word answers towards the end of the interview. So I think in some ways he's still struggling with authenticity. And I think that he needs to wrap his head around how to answer several key questions that you touched upon in the interview. C6, the conversion therapy bill, for example, if he has any chance of not repeating the same errors that Andrew Scheer did in the last campaign. Okay. Rob, your take, initial take on this. There are a couple of things that we could put under the rubric of, I'm admitting that it's a wretched thing to be the leader of the opposition in our parliamentary system, because it's a miserable job.

The first thing he did that surprised me was he admitted that the Conservatives have got things wrong, that it's not by happenstance that they've had three leaders in the last six years, that they got policy wrong, important policy wrong, particularly on climate change, but on LGBTQ issues as well. He made an allusion to that to say that he has actually changed things and changed the party's position on that. And he touted his climate change policy to show that he isn't going to use it necessarily as a shield issue. He is going to try and do a little sword play on that as well.

The other thing, again, under the rubric of wretchedness, he said, like, it's been really tough for me because we've been in the middle of a pandemic and I haven't had a chance to travel. Nobody knows who I am, which is a startling admission for somebody to make who's been around the Hill for about a decade now. But it's an honest admission. And so that's a political problem. The first one about recognizing that his party got things wrong is probably the first important couple of steps towards getting things right. I was surprised that he gave Trudeau a C- on the pandemic handling, because the C-, I mean, I never got that high in high school. So, I mean, it is a passing grade. What does that tell you, Peter?

It tells you that he does not want to make pandemic management, the election issue, the ballot box question for him, the ballot box question was what is who's going to be best poised to lead the economic recovery. So he's putting that issue of the pandemic behind him because he probably has calculated that that's the winner for Trudeau. That with 80% of us now having our first jab in our arms, that's the winner.

And he cannot, cannot try to tackle that head on. He's got to move beyond it. Well, he admitted that too, when he said that he didn't want that to be the ballot question that he's not he's going to try to not make that be the ballot question but i thought that wasn't like on the parts of like is he believable yes or no like that was an honest answer uh you know 60 ish percent uh whether you i mean you have to give the government some credit we're leading the world in terms of vaccination.

So he can't just say the government has failed. He would discredit people. Plus, we have to remember that he's going after voters that voted for Justin Trudeau at least once, maybe even twice. So he can't tell them that they voted for somebody that he thinks is an idiot and calling into question their judgment.

He's going after those same people to ask them to vote for him again. So I thought that to me was actually quite strategically smart i think anything else would have been not believable from the listener's point of view i might have gone after him on look there are 25,000 canadians who won't be able to vote in this election because you got it wrong at the beginning you got it wrong on borders uh you know you you got it wrong in believing the WHO and China at the beginning. And that too would be credible, right? Those are legit lines of attack. But he's got China on the brain. China keeps coming up all the time. And, you know,

there is a constituency out there to hear that, but I'm not quite sure how large that constituency is. In terms of his own party and how united it is behind him on some of the big issues, including climate change, has he got that right? Are they a united party now on issues like climate change? Althea? No. No, they are not uh the caucus is still i would say um upset with the leader for having learned through the cbc what was going to be in his environmental plan uh they are not over that um the environmental plan you know he talked about his five pillars and he talked about having a plan but the. The environmental plan, you know, he talked about his five pillars and he talked

about having a plan, but his environmental plan can be easily criticized, as I suspect it will be during the campaign, by people who poke holes at this idea of having an aeroplane points card for how much greenhouse gas you consume as an unworkable plan. But it's mostly, I would say, the grassroots who are really not aligned with their leader. I felt he did his best to try to put the issue behind him, but I suspect we're going to hear a lot,

especially out West, about this. I think the best case for him is assuming that Saskatchewan comes out with its own plan like the best case for erin o'toole on the environment is that he doesn't need to implement his plan but the provinces will have moved forward with their own plans and so this issue can be a non-issue for him i think the bigger question that we saw in the last few months, May and June, is when it comes to the abortion question and LGBTQ issues that were described in C6, the conversion therapy bill that you spoke to him about. And he tried to say, well, on the first vote, two thirds of the caucus voted with me.

But what he fails to say is actually the majority of the caucus on the final vote did not vote with him. So they voted against this conversion therapy bill. And more important, I think, especially in places like Quebec, is the abortion bill. This is Kathy Wigginsall's sex selective abortion bill. That bill, more than half of his own shadow cabinet did not vote with him. And two thirds of caucus did not vote with him. So he is standing on one side of the issue and trying to appeal to people who are more progressive on these social issues where his MPs are not following him. How can you lead the country when you can't even lead your caucus, I think is something that is going to be asked during the campaign.

And it is also a reflection, I would just say, lastly, that the MPs feel that they owe the loyalty to their members, to the people who belong to the social conservative wing of the party, who are the donors, who are the volunteers, who are knocking on doors. And they think that those people are more important in the eve of an election than following the marching orders from their leader. All right, Rob, you get the last word here. You got a minute here to tell me what I think. I think that the members of his caucus and the members of his party are asking him the same question. They're asking themselves the same question that you ask them. Who really is Aaron O'Toole? Is he the guy who is the true blue conservative who attacked progressives as being woke in a speech he didn't expect to be leaked? Or is he the guy who in one of his last comments to you admitted that he watched you on the

CBC and that he admired what you did on the CBC at the same time that he says he wants to gut the CBC. Who is he? That's a question that's being actively asked inside his own caucus room. Winning might take care of that mystery, but he's still an enigmatic figure to the people that he should be leading. Okay, we're going to leave it people that he should be leading. Okay. We're going to leave it at that.

Thank you both. Rob Russo, Althea Raj. My pleasure, Peter. Thank you very much, Peter. And we'll be back with some final thoughts right after this. So there you have it. Aaron O'Toole, his thoughts, what he would do if he was prime minister, and how he reacts to the criticism that he has faced from a lot of different angles, from other politicians, from people within his own party, and from analysts and journalists who have been covering

the political story out of Ottawa, the criticism about just how much he has in terms of support within his own party. So, so far we've heard Justin Trudeau. That's a couple of months ago now, but it was all on the issues that are going to be confronted by Canadians in this election campaign. And now we've heard from Aaron O'Toole. I do have a request in for Jagmeet Singh and hopefully we get a positive response to that in the next week or so. And if that is the case, we'll have a special with Jagmeet Singh as well before the election campaign gets really going. It's hard to get these people for this amount of time when the campaign

is actually underway, but we've been lucky enough to get them on the bridge over this last little while. And I appreciate their cooperation in letting us have the chats that we've had. So listen, have a great weekend. This broadcast will play a number of times over the next few days on Sirius XM. And of course it's always available to you as a download on whatever podcast platform you use.

So this is Peter Mansbridge signing off from Stratford, Ontario in the middle of the summer of 2021. And what a summer it's turning out to be. We'll talk to you again soon. Music Music Music Thank you.