The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - A Wednesday Special Encore ... with the BBC's Lyse Doucet

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

Encore Episode. She's the BBC's Chief International Correspondent, a great storyteller and a proud Canadian. Lyse Doucet has her first book out, and it's the story of Afghanistan, the country where she's been going to off and on since 1988. Covering that country has spanned her remarkable career. Her book is called "The Finest Hotel in Kabul." Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

And hello there, welcome. Peter Mansbridge here on a special rebroadcast, a special encore edition of the bridge. And we go back to last November when we had a pretty special guest in the studio, well, in the Zoom studio. And that was Lee's Doucette, the chief international correspondent of the BBC, a Canadian, by the way, and one of the great journalists out there covering our world. We hear Lees every once in a while I've known her for quite some time and we have an enormous amount of respect for each other. So Lees had big news just in the last little while.

Her book that we talk about on this program, The Finest Hotel in Kabul, has won the 26th women's prize for non-fiction. So congratulations to Lees. And this is an opportunity if you didn't already know about the book to learn a little more about it. because we're rebroadcasting our interview from last November. Enjoy.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. Welcome to Wednesdays. Wednesdays, as you know, normally a encore day. But every once in a while this year, we've been doing something different on Wednesdays. And today is one of those days. We've got Lees Ducet. We're joining us in a few moments' time. Lees is the BBC's Chief International Corresponding.

She's just written her first book, The Finest Hotel in Kabul. It's a fascinating read. She talks about it, and she talks about being Canadian in one of the top journalistic jobs in Britain. You know, let me tell you, when I started working for the CBC in the 1960s, it was a time when some of the top correspondence, at the CBC were Canadian but carried a British accent

as they'd come from Britain you know post-war well it was also a time where Canadians were kind of shaking off the colonial ties and they sort of kind of looked at this

as some Canadians that this was wrong how can you possibly have a Brit on the news I always felt odd about this because, as some of you know, I was born in Britain. We came to Canada in the mid-1950s. But by the time I started working in the mid-to-late 60s at the CBC, I had long since lost my accent.

But I used to cringe when I heard these complaints about, you know, great correspondents like Ron Colester, who was the chief parliamentary correspondent in that day. Anyway, you'll understand why I say that when you hear from Lee Doucette in one of the top jobs of the BBC with a Canadian accent, a particularly distinctive Canadian accent, I might add. But you'll hear her talk about that in our conversation, which will be coming up in a few moments' time. Okay, I don't want to interrupt the conversation with Lee's, so instead, let's move our break out of the way right now, and then we'll get to the conversation with Lee's Doucette right after this. And welcome back.

You're listening to The Bridge, the Wednesday, a special Wednesday edition, right here on Sirius XM, Channel 167 Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast, platform. We're glad to have you with us. Our guest today is Lee's Ducet. If you've ever watched or listened to the BBC, you've almost certainly heard Lee's Ducet.

She's the BBC's chief international correspondent. She's also a first-time author now with her new book, The Finest Hotel in Kabul. It's kind of a well it is, a people's history

of Afghanistan. She has a very unique way of telling it by telling the story of a hotel that she's been traveling to since 1988 whenever she stayed in Afghanistan. As you're about to find out, she's been there many times. But she tells the story of Afghanistan through the lives and stories of many of the workers who were in that hotel. And I'll tell you, it's a great, it's a great read. Obviously, if you've been to Afghanistan, a lot of Canadians have and have served there, that's one thing. That's one thing. But if you're just fascinated and interested in the story of that country, then you're going to enjoy this book. Lees will be coming to Canada in the next little while on a book tour.

I'll tell you about that after you've heard the interview. So let's get right to it here. All right? Here we go. My conversation with Lees Doucette. Lees, let me start by asking you this. How many times have you been to Afghanistan? Oh, I think I've lost count. The first time was Christmas, 1988, and Afghanistan was in the grips of the harshest winter in decades. And as Canadians, we know what that means. But it was also in the grip of the Cold War. And it was in the crosshairs of what was then a global confrontation, a Soviet-backed government in Kabul,

Western-backed-Mujahideen. That war was tearing the countryside apart. And I think, Peter, in a sense, that was the Ukraine war of our time, the most grievous war in the world, the biggest migration crisis, and it never left our headlines. And I'm sure it's the same way with you. I remember when I started traveling, people said, Lee, you're going to find that cities are like people.

You decide immediately whether or not you're going to have a relationship with them. And Kabul was like that for me, or perhaps I should say Afghans were like that for me. I was taken by the country and taken in a personal sense because I found that Afghans have a very strong sense of self. And I found that through the years I've realized that people who have a strong sense of self, and I think this applies to Canadians also have a very strong sense of humor. And it makes them very warm-hearted towards others. And of course, I landed there when, as a journalist, the eyes of the world were on Afghanistan. And working there as a young BBC correspondent was not just a great privilege.

It was a responsibility because it was said that 95% of Afghans were listening to the BBC translated. My dispatches, remember that time, there were no those in our telephones in our pockets time. there was like three, four international telephone lines out of Kabul, most of them going through Moscow. One, I should add, since you're in Scotland, through the Glasgow telephone exchange, but that's another thing. But they would be translated into Dari and Pashto.

So it really was a pivotal moment in so many ways. The reason I asked you how many times you've been there, there was a reason behind my question. So I'm assuming a dozen, more than a dozen, a lot of times. More than a dozen, way more than a dozen. Okay. The reason I asked that is, you know, I was in Afghanistan twice. It was, you know, after 9-11, it was, you know, a very, you know, conflict-related, war-related in terms of the Canadian troops and all that.

What I realized that I'd never understood was the Afghan people in any way. Did I understand what they were like? when I read this book, of course, I had a much different sense of Afghanistan and its people. And I think you kind of got at that and your first answer here, there. It's about people and you've got to understand people.

You've got to know people to have a sense of the country. Is that what you were grasping at right from the beginning? I'm really touched, Peter, because that is the essence. And even though it is a book about Afghans and Afghanistan, I'd like to think that it's also a book with wider meaning, is that those places far away.

Do you remember when you were anchoring the National, what are the snapshots that we show on the news? They're these moments in time, and usually the worst moments in people's lives, running away from the bombs, wailing on the hospital, standing in the rubble of their of their home, in tears, the deepest, the darkest moments of their lives. But people everywhere, no matter where they live, have to get up in the morning,

make themselves a cup of tea or coffee, and find an everyday courage to face the day. And even in the hardest of times I have found that they need, the people need to have, they need to live with a measure of hope, great amount of human. because I have found that humor is the, not just the universal language, but the best of tools to survive in the worst of times, but also even in war zones or areas of conflict or disasters, there are births and birthdays and weddings and celebrations. There are moments of joy.

And I really wanted to try to tell a story which goes beyond those snapshots and stereotypes to tell. and the everyday story in, I don't like to use the word, you know, ordinary days in extraordinary times. Why was it Afghanistan you picked to do this? Because, you know, these two sets being everywhere. She's been standing in the middle of some of the great stories of our time. But you chose Afghanistan. I always see with that Johnny Cash song, I've been everywhere. I haven't been everywhere, but I've been quite a few places. There was something which really captured my heart, captured my imagination.

And it goes back to your very first question, because I went back time and again, that for me, and I'm not the only one, we're a very big tribe. And in fact, I say nobody ever goes to Afghanistan once. And you went there twice, Peter, so that proves my theory. that it just continues to draw you in, despite the fact that it's such a turbulent history, despite the fact that Afghanistan is often a byword for suffering, for war,

for the collapse of one regime after the other, for the failure, although I don't see it as a complete failure of two decades of international engagement, where Western troops, including Canadians, fought there and died there. But there's a lot more about, Afghanistan. And also, you have to have not just a reason to write a book, but you also need, I think, to have an authority or a right to write a book. And because I had, you know, the very

first day I went to Kabul, I went to stay at the Intercontinental Hotel. And after that wobbly moment of wondering how long I would stay, I ended up staying nearly a year. And it became my first Afghan home. And I kept going back to the hotel during momentary. as times. And so people at the hotel became my friends over the years, and I'm still in touch with some of them. And so I felt there was a story to tell and that I could try to tell it, up to the readers, of course, to decide whether I've done a good job. And most of all, Afghan readers. Well, I don't think there's any question about you having done a good job, a great job. I wanted to just scratch back a little bit to something you said

because I think it would intrigue Canadians because we, you know, for many Canadians who still remember our involvement in Afghanistan because so much has happened in our world since then, but they wonder whether it was worth it. I mean, we did lose 158, 159 people in Afghanistan and you wonder, was it, worth it, considering the situation in Afghanistan now with the Taliban back in control,

that basically we cut and ran, as did everybody else, and left it back to the Taliban once again. Was it worth it? Because you intrigued me when you kind of, you implied that there were things that were accomplished during that time. I was very conscious of saying that, Peter, because I think that is the question that we all ask. Those and those who gave so much, expected so much, and then feel there was so little. It was a terrible result that after two decades of international engagement, dozens of armies the world over, billions in dollars in aid,

so many days spent working with Afghans, had a good end with the Taliban coming back to power. But what we did during that time was that the international engagement created a space to help develop, help create, help encourage the most educated, the most connected Afghan generation in history, that Afghan boys and girls dreamed bigger than ever before. And especially the women, they could dream about being not just an engineer and a doctor, a lawyer, they could even run for the president of Afghanistan.

Now, one of my friends and colleagues, Christina Lam, told me how she had gone to Kabul after the Taliban came back, and some Afghan girls said to her, why did you allow us to dream? We dream so big, and now it's all come crashing down. Maybe we shouldn't have, or you shouldn't have allowed us to dream. But those dreams are still there, and you see it in the determination of young Afghan girls to find a way,

to be educated, whatever way they can. And I'm sure many of your listeners, and this includes me, get contacted endlessly about how can you help us. Of course, many would like to leave, but when those who know they have to say, they're trying to find ways to make their life better because they understand that they have rights, and they have a right to be educated.

And therefore, they're still trying, and boys are still trying. And the Afghans who are outside the country, haven't given up hope of their being in Afghanistan, which has a relationship with the world, which respects its traditions. It is a conservative country. It does hold fast to its traditions.

But it's also a country that was modernizing, that was being educated, and that would have a different place in the world. And I would say to you, Peter, as well, though, because you mentioned about how Canadian troops, I remember, and I hope this doesn't sound like superficial journalism, But I went to Ottawa 10 years after Canadian troops are there and Canadian troops are leaving. And I did what I was told was the Canadian test.

I went and did talk to people at a Tim Horton's coffee shop and I went to talk to them at the Starbucks coffee shop. Would we say a different kind of clientele? Maybe a little bit. I don't like to generalize because I buy coffee at both Tim Hortons and at Starbucks. I won't say they're both good coffee, I have to say. But I did say because 10 years is a long time. And I know we did say after the fall of the Taliban, we will be with you for the long run.

But the general consensus was we have been there for a decade. We've done what we could. And now we feel that a decade was long enough. And that was, we're a democracy in Canada. That seemed to have been the decision of political leaders and also the decision of the people of Afghanistan. And that seemed to be the decision of the people of Canada by and large. It doesn't mean that Canada stopped engaging.

Look at how many people, how many, including journalists that Canada gave a new home to with the fall of the Taliban. Canada did open its arms. Some would say we should have allowed even more, but we certainly let a lot of people in, understanding that we did have some kind of responsibility to those that fought alongside us, worked alongside us, and that we had worked together to try to make Afghanistan a better place. When you say they're still trying, women, Afghan women, trying to reach the dream, that we help give them.

What are they doing to try to accomplish that? Because isn't it, is the Taliban not as strict today as they were before 2001? In some ways, Peter, they're even stricter than they were in the late 1990s when they ruled. And that, of course, makes a mockery of their leadership. because when we met Taliban leaders during the negotiations in the Gulf State of Qatar, they told journalists like me, they told Afghan women negotiators.

This was 2020, 2020. No, no, no, we learned from our past. We're not going to rule in that harsh way we did before, that women have, we understand now that girls and women under Islam have the right to be educated, women can have most jobs, not all jobs. They can be judges, they said, but they can have, even use this phrase,

they can even choose their life partner. We wonder, where did they get that phrase, life partner? But the ones who did come to power, the military leadership, and I have to say it is this small group of leaders in the southern province of Kandahar, ironically where Canadian troops served.

It is that leadership, which is propagating these very, very harsh edicts. And the last time I was in Kabul two years ago, I saw a Taliban, I've known for a long time, Molo Zaid. And he said to me, me, 95% of the Taliban do not agree with these harshest of edicts. We understand that Islam insists that women and girls have to be educated, that women

can pursue their potential. And some of those leaders have spoken out, but because the unity of the Taliban is so important, they haven't yet marshaled enough resources to be able to take on that leadership. And make no mistake, Peter, after the disastrous Soviet industry, intervention of a decade after the two decades of international engagement, this time it will have to come from within. And a very good Afghan friend of mine, which still runs a media, television and radio stations in Afghanistan, he hires more women, he says, than he did, even during the international engagement. Last time I saw him, he said, there's this pressure

building up against this wall. And the wall has some cracks in it. At some point, the wall is going to crack. But the big fear is how long it will take. Because if it takes, let's say, another five years, that means there will be no more women doctors educated, not even any midwives, and that Afghan girls will grow up thinking it's normal that I should just stay in the house and get married when in my teenage years. And just as importantly, that boys will grow up thinking it's normal that the women in their family never leaves the homes. But let me just pick up on the last element that you mentioned in your question. There are areas, most of all, the capital, Kabul, where the restrictions are a bit lighter. If any of you went to Kabul now, you'd probably be struck that it's not, the women aren't all dressed

in black, the women aren't all covering their faces. If you go to restaurants, the women who have the money and not of them all do, because there's a financial and economic crisis too. The restaurants are, there's a lot of women in the restaurants. Women are working in the private sector. You'll see them at the airport. They do some of the security checks. They do the women's body searches, but there are whole areas of society where women are still not allowed to tread, including even parks, hamanms, and of course, these universities and schools. So it's still a country in transition then? Well, transition would be optimistic, but I don't think we have the privilege of not being

optimistic for Afghans, because that's for Afghans to decide. It is a really, really tough battle. And we see outside the country how Afghan women and their allies are using whatever legal tools they have, defining what's happening in Afghanistan as gender apartheid, calling it a war crime. All of these are going to courts. In fact, it has reached the international criminal courts. So they are making efforts. They haven't cracked that wall yet. And eventually the pressure has to come from within the Taliban.

But they're not there yet. So they're not, it's still a moment of waiting and for the Afghans and their, and their supporters, and there are many worldwide of working, of working hard. Let me spend a couple of minutes talking about you because you're, you know, one of the most successful Canadian correspondents out there. Now the chief correspondent, chief foreign correspondent for the BBC. and you're Canadian and proud of it. So how does a girl from Bathurst and Daph's in such an exalted position?

How did that happen? Well, I wouldn't say exalted, Peter. I think I'm a member of a very big tribe, but it is an unlikely story, which in some ways follows on from your last story that unlikely things happen. You talk to a lot of great historians how historians say that things happen. in the last minute. I did grow up in a very small town on the eastern shores of Canada,

on the Bay de Chalard, the Bay of Heat that Jacques Cartier discovered in the 1600s, and sadly his men froze to death when they realized it wasn't a warm bay at all. There was no chaleur in the winter. And we don't have time to think, but I'll say the short story

is something which makes me emphasize time and again. And again, this picks up on our last question, education opens the door. I did decide at the last minute, at the last minute, to go to Queen's University, going to the center of Canada, and then going to University of Toronto, two of Canada's finest universities,

and they opened up the world for me. And when I wrote to newspaper editors, this was 1983, there was a recession in Canada, all the editors said, oh, thanks, but no thanks. You have no experience. You don't have a journalism, degree, but I so wanted to become a foreign journalist. I wanted to travel. So I became a volunteer with Canadian Crossroads International. And after a bit of back and forth, they sent me

finally to Cote d'Ivoire, to Ivory Coast. And I worked there for a few months as a volunteer, of absolutely a defining experience for me. And then I did what small town girls do. I went to the city, Abbejan. And there it was. And I'm told in our time, we shouldn't say right place, right time, that we make our own luck, and that is what I say to young journalists, there was the BBC opening up its first West Africa office. There was me. No CV. All I, my only journalism experience was a few articles for real estate news in Toronto. No, wrong country, wrong accent.

And as you know then, you're a London boy yourself, Peter, London born, a completely wrong accent. And then the clouds opened and angels, descended from the skies and said, she's from New Brunswick, give her a job. And Peter, just not to make it to the end too long. So that was the days before the internet. So people used to write long letters to the BBC saying, why can you not find journalists from Britain who will do the job? Why did you hire Les Doucette or where does Lees Doucette's accent come from? So every few years I would get on to this call-in program and explain. The last time I did it,

and I'm not sure if this is why I was asked back, I decided that I would be defiant. And I said, I'm Canadian, but my ancestry is Acadian. My people were expelled by the British in 1755, and many regarded as Britain's first ethnic cleansing. The British didn't give us our land back, but they gave me a job. And working for the BBC is for me, my Acadian revenge. Then I got letters from people from Acadians who around the world, including one,

unforgettable one, which basically said, oh, Liz, du Csette Chappos, you're the celendion of journalism. Well, of course, that was a little too, but it was a nice community moment. So I still am very much. Someone put on my, one of my promos for this book that Lees is a Canadian-born, journalist. I said, no, no, no, no, I am Canadian. Do you carry both passports? No, I'm just Canadian. On my tombstone, they will write. She was only ever Canadian. That's nice. I mean, I'm lucky enough to have two passports because I was born in Britain,

as you mentioned. And it's handy as a journalist sometimes. It's no, no, it is. It is. It is. I was going to get, yeah, I was going to get it when the cues that he threw were really long. and then they brought in these new digital things with digital systems which include Canadians and now I don't have to go through Q's. So my editor sometimes. Heathrow has actually become quite a good airport in terms of moving between terminals and airlines.

Let me just say about the accent. It's still the most distinctive accent of any broadcaster anywhere in the world. I mean, when you hear Leicester Set, you know you're listening to Leicester Set. Let me ask you a question because I heard you talking about it some time ago about your Acadian heritage and Evangeline and how it plays. It has played a role in your life, but it's played a role in you telling this story that you're telling now through this book. Tell me about that.

When I started working for the BBC, traveling for the BBC, especially going to countries which were former British colonies, like for example, Pakistan, people would constantly come up to me and say, or I should say also in the Middle East, where, of course, there was the British mandate in Palestine, which is controversial to this day. And in Jerusalem,

Palestinians would come up to me and say, say Balfour Declaration, Sykes Pico, and I would puff up my chest and say, my people were expelled by the British before you even had a sense of your homeland. My people suffered terribly too under the British, so don't tell me about British history. But I also learned, Peter, and you have such a really strong appreciation for history that is threaded through all. of your work. In going to society, in living in places where history was not in the past, history was lived as if it happened yesterday, or if it was the day, I too began to understand that I needed to know more about my own history on my mother's side, generations ago from

Ireland, the Hussies around Dublin, on my father's side. Generations ago, it has to be said, of the Acadians and therefore that I've loved this expression of our great Canadian novelist Robertson Davies, what's bread in the bone? I just love that and how it really are we still

our history lives within us and I think even now there are there are scientific analyses about of course it's connected to trauma I don't want to say the trauma of the Acadians lives in me that would be saying too much but I think we are that we carry

we carry who we are within ourselves. And so let me finish by telling you one story of the Acadians. That gives me real hope. In November of 2021, after I'd spent a few months in Kabul, covering what was the darkest day for so many Afghans who were not just forced to flee their country, but forced to leave so much of themselves behind, including a country they never thought they would see again.

And in November, I went to Toronto to the annual gala of journalism for human rights, which played such a big role in bringing Afghan journalists and their families to Canada. And I stood on that stage, and it was glum. It was glum. And I said, we need to reach back in history to find a moment of hope, to find some light in the dark. As of now, August the 15th, 2021 is the darkest day for so many Afghans. It's a day of defeat and of failure. August 15th is the day of celebration for the Acadian people.

It is our national day when we celebrate a flag, a national anthem, the survival of a people who were pushed out to sea on rickety boats in 1755, and many perished in that journey. And yet decades on, they came back to their lands in eastern Canada, not some of them were scattered around the world, and began rebuilding their sense of identity, their sense of self. For a time, as you know, they asked for their own country that I don't think, I think Mosokadians would recognize it wasn't possible.

But they have an identity. And if you go to, if you travel to the north shore of New Brunswick now, there is a place called Akadhi. So that night in November 2021, I said we cannot give up. That history tells us that sometimes history works in remarkable ways. You know, you feel that or you want to feel that as you progress through this book, the finest hotel in Kabul, which is once again the name of Lisa's new book and her first book. Yes.

You know, which is remarkable. One of the, one of the, your fellow journalists who wrote about, about this book, included, you know, in those little, you know, what do they call them blurbs on the back page, said we've been waiting a long time for Lees to write a book. And it's been worth the wait. And it certainly has. But is this going to be the only Lees-Doucette book? Are you already thinking something else? Do you know, I was, I was interested when you. you interviewed our great, great historian, Tim Cook, and he talked to you about how, even on

his 19th book, how he felt trepidation. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm on my first book, and I'm still feeling trepidition. As you know with the book, first of all, you have to decide, can you write a book? Do you like writing a book? And I loved writing. And I think, Bobby Peter, you also found me. You've written two books, right? Five, five, actually. But who's counting? But I mean, listen. too. When I read your book, I go, like, why did I try to write a book? Oh, it was so silly. I'm so silly. No, no, no, I mean, you're a beautiful writer. I mean, you take us into the lives of these various people that you met during your times at the hotel and as a result of being at the hotel. But, you know, that part of it is, for you, is a given.

It's an art you have. But you still need an inspiration for a book. I mean, you thought of a great way of telling the story of Afghanistan through these lives. You need a, you need a conceit. And if I may, since we're talking Canadian to Canadian, let me tell you when it all started. And I still remember, we often have visual memories of moments that stay. And I can still remember a Saturday morning in Toronto, in a cafe on Queen Street.

I was a graduate student at the University of Toronto, wanting for all the world one day to become a foreign journalist. And I was just finishing reading in Cold Blood by Truman Capote. And you notice when you read a book that really has an impact on you, I remember sitting there and savoring the deliciousness of a book which told a true story, but with the conventions of a not true story. In other words, using the conventions of a novel, of fiction, to write a nonfiction, a true story. And I was dazzled by that idea. Never mind that later, some people said that Truman Kubodi may have invented some of the details in the book, but that stayed with me. And so when I sat down to write the book, and when I thought of all the books that I read when I first went to a place to immerse myself in a sense of a place in people,

I always turn to novels and to what we call narrative history. And so when I, when I started writing, and I would occasionally stop and think, why am I writing it like this? And I thought, because it's the only way that I really believe can possibly work up to the readers to decide, because literature, as you know, Peter, has a way of opening up our horizons, opening up our hearts. And in trying to bring these people, the history lives on the page. And so characters come to life. And that is what I was trying to do. And again, it's reader by reader for them to decide.

Oh, I think they won't have any trouble deciding. But is there another one? I mean, listen, as I said at the top, you've been everywhere. You've been in the middle of so many huge stories. You know, how many times you've been to Gaza? And that story just keeps on happening. I mean, have you thought? If I write, and I think it's an if, you have to wake up in the morning and start writing.

And I don't have time right now. I have a very, we all have very busy jobs. My next book would be about the Acadians, would be, to try to find a modern story about an old story, which isn't old at all. And I think the refugee experience of the Acadians has an echo today, the success of the Acadian people. And I have to make clear that, you know, I grew up speaking English, so I don't want to present myself as a full-blooded Acadian, but no one can.

That's my ancestry. That's my history. you go to the Acadian Village and one of the houses of the original Acadian families, there is a do set house there. So I know it to be the case. So, but I would need to find a prism. I need to find a conceit, a way to tell the story, which makes it a story that people want to listen to, want to, want to read.

And I will also say, Peter, I've always been struck that of all the books written on Canadian history in English, there's not a lot written. in English. There's a lot in French, and I think I will just get off my bookshelf, the book that really had in the first. In this second, someone who also passed away recently.

Yeah, we're missing Tim Cook a lot these days as a great Canadian storyteller. And, you know, Obviously, you're searching your bookshelves for the one you want to mention to us before we... Sorry. That's okay. I was patting. I was padding.

I was padding the time. I was padding the time here, at least. This is the book, The Acadians by James Laxer, another Canadian historian who sadly passed away. And this was one of my light bulb moments. He told the story of Longfellow, the American poet who had never been to, never been to Canada and had heard about the story of the Acadians. And he told the story which could have been in any bar, anywhere in the world where journalists gathered. And he met Nathaniel Hawthorne. And he heard that Nathaniel had also heard about this story about the Acadians.

And he said to him, I'm writing a poem about that. Don't you write a poem about that? That's my story. And he wrote this epic home, which you mentioned earlier about Evangeline. And of course, it was a great success in America. But then decades later, many decades later, it found its way across the border. And the churches heard about it. And the churches in Eastern Canada translated it from French into English.

And then it went from English into French. Then it went from the church to the schools. And the school started teaching this poem, this epic poem, two lovers separated at the time of the expulsion and then reunite it later. Then community centers also told this poem, and you go to Eastern Canada, especially in August, every summer. The story of Evangeline is played in community halls, in theaters, and a version of it created by the Acadians.

And the way James Laxter tells it, he said, in this poem, the Acadians found their sense of self. They found their story. And it wasn't a story of defeat. It was a story of strength and courage and determination. And it gave them a sense of self. And I just was thrilled by the, I thought, wow, what an account of how the power of words, how an idea, an idea about a people, a sense of self-identity can make a difference. Well, in many ways you've captured that in this book as well, in terms of the Afghan people,

the strength, the courage, the determination through incredibly difficult times that they saw, that the people you highlight saw close up year after year through the life of this finest hotel in Kabul. Lisa's been a treat. I always wanted to talk with you. I'm glad we've had this opportunity. Continued good luck in your career, and we look forward to that next book,

no matter what it's on. We'll be readers. It's a great honor and a joy to be on your program. So aptly named the bridge. You did so much for Canadian journalism and for Canada, and it's really nice to be continuing the conversation. Thanks, Lees. I appreciate that.

But we all stand in awe of your work. So it's a mutual admiration society here, for sure. Just journalists, just journalists. Yeah, just journalists. Take care. Thanks again, Lisa. Thank you, Peter. Thank you.

That was a special rebroadcast, an encore episode of The Bridge from last November when our guest was, Lees Doucette. Hope you enjoyed it. We'll be back tomorrow with our episode of Your Turn and The Random Renter. That's Thursday's program right here on the bridge. Bye for now. See you in less than 24 hours.