The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - An American's Blunt Assessment of What's Happening in Canada.

Episode Date: February 8, 2022

Steve Schmidt is a top American political and communications strategist with bright red Republican credentials. He's fearful of what's happening in his country and is convinced it's bleeding over into Canada, witness the dark side of the trucker's convoy. Plus an extraordinary discussion with Anthony Germain of the CBC on what it's like inside Beijing in the midst of Covid and the Olympics.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You're just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. We've got some blunt talk from the American right about the American rights involvement in the trucker convoy. And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. Welcome to The Bridge. It's the Tuesday episode. And we've got a couple of really interesting stories for you today. One comes from the United States. The other comes from China. So let's start with the American story.

Steve Schmidt, you know that name? I'm sure a lot of you who listen to this podcast because of your interest in politics have probably heard the name Steve Schmidt. He's not a Canadian, but he cares about Canada and he comes to Canada every once in a while in his business as a strategic consultant. He's a big-time American political guy. He helped run the campaigns of George W. Bush, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and perhaps the one he's most famous for was the senior strategist running the campaign

of Arizona Senator John McCain. In fact, it was Steve Schmidt who pushed for, later regretted, regrets greatly today, but pushed for Sarah Palin to be John McCain's vice presidential candidate in the campaign against Barack Obama. And he won that push. He convinced McCain to do just that, to pick Sarah Palin. But today, this former Republican is very much an anti-Trumper.

He got out of Republican politics, helped found the Lincoln Project. You may have heard of that. It's had a very effective television campaign against the former president, the twice-impeached former president, one-term president. And the Lincoln project was, oh, one assumes partly to blame, if you will, if you're a Trumper, for the difficulties Donald Trump faced. But he's a very active anti-Trumper.

He's on MSNBC, one of the American news channels. He's on there quite a bit. And he's known for his tirades against Trump. Well, today he's front and center on the bridge because of a series of tweets he did last night. He's been watching the trucker convoy and how it's paralyzed Ottawa, how there have been issues in southern Alberta and other different provincial capitals across the country. And most recently, the Ambassador Bridge between Detroit and Windsor. He's been watching all that unfold. As some interest has been generated in the States, and they look at it as, well, some

of the coverage I've seen has been pretty pathetic. I mean, you can complain about the Canadian media all you want, but the American media and the way they've covered this story has been pretty pathetic. However, Steve Schmidt tries to make up for that by a blast of,

well, a series of tweets last night, but I'll read you the three main ones. Because this, once again, shows that Schmidt knows Canada, right? And he comes to Canada, as I said. He's done strategic consulting in different parts of Canada over the last few years. So here's what Steve Schmidt tweeted yesterday. Ottawa is the capital city of one of the most important countries in the world.

Now, you don't see many Americans say that, but Steve Schmidt said it, and he means it. It is under siege by a highly organized and well-funded fascist occupation that is coordinating with, connected to, and funded in part by the American far right. Let me say that again. This is Steve Schmidt who knows of what he speaks when he's talking about the right in America and the far right in America. Ottawa, capital of Canada, he says, it is under siege by a highly organized

and well-funded fascist occupation that is coordinating with, connected to, and funded in part by the American far-right. The United States and Canada share the longest peaceful and undefended border in world history. We are linked by our values and ideals, by our sins and our faults. Our histories are interwoven and our peoples deeply connected through love, service, sacrifice, family, and freedom. Political violence, instability, and chaos will not be contained at the border. We have a problem and it is one America and Canada share. People of goodwill and good faith who believe in pluralism and

democracy better wake up on both sides of the border. Alright. We better wake up on both sides of the border. All right. We better wake up on both sides of the border. Democracy's at stake, says Steve Schmidt. So there's his take on the convoy. We've certainly heard a lot of different takes from across canada we heard him again last night in the house of commons in ottawa to the point where the prime minister

entered the fray and there have been questions asked over these last few days where is the prime minister now we know he and his family have been dealing with a COVID situation. But clearly, he's passed that. He looked pretty healthy in the House of Commons last night. But he's not changing his take. There have been criticisms that he's been too harsh on those who have been calling for an end to vaccine mandates. He certainly is not holding back on the claims by the protesters that his government should be forced to resign, should basically be taken out six months after they were just voted in. Anyway, they were up voted in. Anyway,

they were up, he was up last night, his ministers were up, House of Commons last night, the opposition parties, they were up having this discussion and debate about how to deal with this protest movement. Was anything resolved? I don't think so.

Situation's still more or less the same today. Supposedly, they're not being allowed to bring gasoline and propane in, but then you have pictures of them doing exactly that and cops standing by watching it all happen. All right. happen all right the main purpose of this though was to to hear that take from steve schmidt somebody who understands that faction of the political situation in the United States, convinced it is now moving into Canada. And as we've heard before in the last week, some of the funding and the ideas being pushed by American far-right groups

into Canada and in support, if not organization, of this protest. I'm going to leave it at that for now on this topic, but tomorrow, obviously, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth, Bruce Anderson will be here, and we'll have this discussion on everything from, you know, is the Prime Minister being absent from the discussion here? What is happening with the leadership on the federal side? And the provincial side?

And the municipal side? The Mayor of Ottawa getting hammered again for his suggestion that there should be a mediator named. Just so that both sides can sit down. Find common ground. Common ground? You're going to find common ground with a group that wants a coup? Sounds a little odd to me.

Okay, we're going to move off this topic. As I said, there'll be lots more tomorrow for sure. But we're going to go to the other side of the world. Going to China. And we're going to get a take from inside the Olympic village on what it's really like on this story, on the Olympics.

Not about the sports, not about the great athletes that Canada and other countries have, but about what it's actually like being in Beijing right now. We'll do that right after this. And welcome back. Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. This is The Bridge.

For a Tuesday, you're listening on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. Welcome from wherever you are listening. All right. I said we're going to have special guests, and we do. Somebody who I've admired, and I know many of you have admired, for a long time. His name's Anthony Germain.

Some of you may recall Anthony when he was the host of CBC's The House. You know, he's based in Ottawa, covered parliamentary politics. Before moving back to his favorite province, I think. Well, maybe Quebec's one of his favorite provinces. It kind of got his start there. But he loves St. John's, and he loves Newfoundland. And he's currently the host of Here and Now, which is the big, hugely popular supper hour show

put on by the CBC in Newfoundland, Labrador. Former host of the St. John's Morning Show. Also, for five years, formerly the CBC's foreign correspondent in China. So he knows China. This was in the early 2000s. He knows China. So he knows China. This was in the early 2000s. He knows China. He's watched its transition from a, you know,

a communist state to a modern communist state and all the tensions and problems that have existed in there. So the CBC decided to send Anthony back to China for the Olympics to cover this story with the kind of context and perspective that he can put towards that work. And that's what I wanted to talk to him about. Now, China is, I don't know, it's basically a half a day ahead of us in central Canada. So it's about a 12-13 hour difference.

So I caught Anthony. It was at that point Monday night for me last night, Tuesday morning for him. But the topic was not dependent on the time zones. The topic was pretty clear. Here's my conversation with Anthony Germain. It's an interesting one. So I know it's the Olympics, but it's also China and it's an interesting one so i know it's the olympics but it's also china and it's covid so what is it like trying to cover this thing

where to start um well it's just such a pain in the ass getting to the press center so i'll just give you the way my day starts you know if you get up and you want to get there early so i know i'm facing a 35 minute bus ride now the chinese have done what they did in 2008 which is great to have an olympic lane but before you even get in the bus you have to take your big badge you go downstairs where you're greeted by about 15 people in hazmat suits and you got to take your badge and scan it so they know you're leaving the building and then you have to put all your equipment through the scanner and you're only doing this to actually get out there to get your throat swabbed so you have to

have a throat swab every day within 24 hours and if you miss that 24 hour period you don't get it done again then all a bunch of emails and alerts go off and then they get mad with you. And in my case, there's, I try to avoid there's a very efficient woman in the booth and there's a guy. And I always try to go for the guy because the woman jams the swab as if she's got an ice pick trying to crack open an ice block and she's brutal. And then after you get that done, Peter, you go back into the hotel. When you come back in the hotel, you have to scan your badge again.

So they know you left the hotel and you came right back in and you get all your stuff and you go back through and then you get on the bus and then the bus is a 35 minute ride. And then you get off the bus, you go through a little tent, you scan your little thingy, and then your picture comes up on a big screen showing that it's you. And I did a little test, Peter. I wasn't sure, is it reading the barcode or not? So I put on my sunglasses, my COVID mask, and I put the badge inside my coat and it still knew it was me so that tells me there's some kind of little sensor in the thing so the the surveillance peter is just non-stop and it starts to wear you down and then finally you get you know with the great cbc team sports team news team and you can

actually get to work so it's just a monumental pain every day now for same thing when you come back yeah no go ahead yeah same thing when you come back right so you go through this all the time and at every venue same thing scan the bad scan the beds you know exactly where you are they know exactly where you are every minute well you know for a lot of people who are covering these things it's first time they've ever been in china that's not the case for you not only being there before you lived there for what five six years um yeah so how different i mean the sense of surveillance in china is always kind of there but i got obviously not at this level i mean i was at the o8 olympics you knew you were being watched but it wasn't oppressive you know this this is so much different because of the covid factor but given your your real-time experience in china versus this

how do you how do you describe the the difference oh man it's just night and day i can't can't believe how much the place has changed in a mere 12 years. Peter, even on the bus, you know, we're within these gates almost all the way, so we can't get out of this closed loop system. But even looking at the number of CCTV cameras that are here compared to then, and I don't just mean the highways and the major thoroughfares and the kinds of things you see in other major cities like in London. But I'm talking about dozens and dozens of cameras poisoned every side street, every apartment building. I mean, they are everywhere. And I was talking to one Chinese fellow who seemed kind of friendly. And he told me these gigantic blue barricades that are erected around all the hotels and the venues.

I said, what's with that? And he said, they don't want you to see how many cameras are there and i said what do you mean he said there's dozens and dozens of cameras there and he said even said even we're kind of embarrassed by them so the surveillance is it's really changed quite a bit you know when we were we were preparing for this trip and you know this you do these security briefings and uh with people who speak off the records i won't say who it was but you know we were told you know you're entering a country that has an estimated 450 to half a billion cctv cameras which is almost it's it's you can't even figure out what that number actually means and then riding around beijing i see all these cameras yeah yeah that kind of adds up that that looks like that way and the feel for the you know

i have some sympathy for the chinese well it's a mixed sympathy you know they decided they were you know come hell or high water these games are going to go ahead. I think they wanted to show up the Japanese, that they were capable of pulling off a game the Japanese were not. And so they decided to go ahead with these games. And they're using, rightfully so, COVID-19 as cover for this tremendous surveillance and control. But you kind of think, know hey guys had you waited

a year you know maybe we could be a little freer because it's just not you were there in 2008 so you know it was friendly right they were they were delighted to have you know wow you know this big guy mansbridge and the cbc is coming to china and the world wants to see what we're doing this feels like uh hey let's unfortunately we have to accept the media to cover these games it's just part of the cost of doing business but you know let's get them in watch them and get them out as fast as humanly possible you know doing journalism in china has always been a challenge i mean i first went there in 76 mal was still alive that's how long ago it was um and you know you you were constantly being watched and there were only so many places

you could go to or or do you couldn't sort of stroll out of the hotel on your own um what is the you know in terms of the journalism you'd like to do and the journalism you can do given the various restrictions that are placed on you right now? Tell me about that, that difference, that challenge. Well, you know, in 2008, we really were free with the usual no-go zones. You know this, Peter, like Tibet. Tibet in 2008 was the no-go zone because there were protests up there with monks. Xinjiang was actually accessible in 2008, a fact that, you know, some journalists actually made it there.

And in 2008, you know, once you got your visa to cover the Olympics, you weren't just free to go to Beijing. You were free to go to anywhere in the country to try to basically describe what's going on in China to the world. That's what they wanted, and they were friendly, and they needed us. Now they don't need us. And so the way we're getting around this, it's really cumbersome, not only that coming and going to the press center but we're essentially relying on you know a team of people that you know very well back in toronto and vancouver and when we say hey listen we'd like to get some critical analysis about this the chinese are saying this uh we know we're not

going to find a single critic here and not even necessarily a nasty critic but just somebody who actually knows they're talking about to do an interview so we're reliant on a lot of people back home in canada to find other voices for us because we simply cannot go and interview people here who would speak freely i mean i remember 2008 talking to a guy who was very critical of mao and the authoritarian legacy no problem i remember talking to people who would speak about the fact hey how you know how we lighten up the bird's nest when parts of this country is still in the dark can we really afford these games what are we doing and these are just regular chinese people and on the other hand you

could talk to people about how great the games were so it cuts both ways we can't do positive stuff we can't do negative stuff and we have to rely on a very cumbersome well sort of like we're talking right now through zoom we're relying on on fellow journalists in Canada to help us find people through Zoom, sending us that tape back to Beijing. And then we're trying to put that sort of stuff on our pieces. So it's really, really difficult. Is it really difficult right now, mainly because of COVID? Well, it certainly doesn't help i think i think the chinese and they man and i think they actually i mean i know this is not exactly a government that particularly cares about public opinion

but i think certainly like the beijing tv and state tv they have they have made the case to the chinese people that we are going to lock these foreigners down to protect the people's republic of china and that i think is something a fact that most chinese people accept that you know omicron is this horrific variant they've seen you know that's one thing state media does not censor is how bad it's been for the west and so people here are terrified of omicron that's why we've seen those remarkable pictures of the chinese shutting down entire cities and testing 14 million people three times i mean i don't think there's any other country on earth that could actually go ahead with the games given the pandemic situation so omicron makes it a lot worse but part of me peter thinks i don't know what they're saying when the when the polybureau

and xi jinping get together but i think they're kind of thinking, we've got them where we want them. Oh, dear. What would happen if you suddenly tested positive on one of these situations? What would happen to you? Don't tempt fate, Peter. Right. I think the best way to answer that is to take a look at what's happened to some of the athletes who've tested positive. I think for the journalists, they'd be pretty good because they know it would be covered. But certainly for some of the athletes up in the

Yanqing zone where the luge events and the sliding events are happening as well as Alpine. So they've had quite a few positive cases up there. So you've got these world champion lugers from Germany, and they spoke out about this, and they were essentially whisked away, stuck in a room. They tried to get the Chinese to say, hey, listen, this is not the proper treatment for us. And the Germans have a certain directness about them.

So the chef de mission really tore a strip off the Chinese, and then they gave the green light to one of their athletes. Listen, we're not getting anywhere. Post. Go on social media. Go on Instagram. And the situation that they described was, you know, it's kind of a we're in a dystopian world where the food is cold,

the rooms are dirty. This is outrageous. We can't live in these conditions. And then all of a sudden the chinese higher gears okay the germans have taken to instagram we have to do something we don't care that the chef de mission has been complaining but now this athlete's actually embarrassing us so i think what they do is they they would take you away um bring you to a special hospital as they call it or a special hotel you'd isolate and you would have to remain

there until you produce two negative tests and of course depending on you know your viral load and how quickly you shed who knows how long that would be now there are cases inside this loop and the numbers seem to have plateaued i think yesterday they announced another 12 but once people produce those two negative tests they go i mean i feel bad for the athletes because we we've got some athletes you know who've missed their training missed events so they just they will sort of just take you and say okay we're locking you up until you're until you're negative can you get to an event can you go and yes actually you can watch something firsthand yeah yeah i mean that is one good thing but then again i gotta scan my little badge so they know exactly okay

jermaine's in hockey okay now he's gone over to he's up to the north and now he's uh he's gone over to figure skating so they know exactly what events you're going to but yeah you can go to the events you talk about the journalism so let's say you know that that that that venn diagram where news crosses into sports peter yeah we all know that right so let's say let's say you wanted to go like for example the canadian women are playing uh the americans uh and you want to go to that game for obvious reasons and sports is going to do sports and news going to do news so whatever you whatever you're going to do for example like watching the canadians wear, playing the Russians. I mean, it's nuts. But you can't have to, again, just go into what we call the mixed zones to interview people.

You have to get permission 24 hours in advance, and there's no guarantee they're going to say, yes, you can. So then you're kind of at the mercy, and you hope, oh, geez, I hope that reporter from the Czech Republic asks a Canadian a question so I can get the clip I want. So, again, that's just another one of those sort of cumbersome, you know, you have no guarantee, even if it's a Canadian athlete, even if you're the CBC, that they're going to, you know, allow you to go in there and ask questions.

You're sort of at the mercy of what they decide. It's not really free that way. And that's for COVID reasons, right? Because, as you know, those scrums, you know, have you ever been in a scrum where there was six feet of social distancing peter i i've had times wished i'd been in a scrum with six feet of social distancing um yeah no that that's not that's not a scrum listen you know one of the things about you anthony is you you're a great storyteller and you've you've done that throughout your career as a foreign correspondent and as a correspondent on the hill and obviously as a host

in um in Newfoundland um what's the story here well uh I guess I would answer that in two ways there is the political story and as much as the ioc and the chinese say there's no room for politics to me 2008 was a coming out party where china really wanted to show the world wow we made it and not only were they given the games but they won more medals than anybody else and it was a great moment and it actually was kind of positive and happy and yet and they still thought they still had a horrible human rights record they're not quite as bad as it's become ironically and unfortunately but it was almost sort of you know what the chinese have lifted hundreds of millions of people in poverty they can actually host the games they have finally joined it they've made it they're they're a major power and they're showing that to the world this time around i think the story is

not only have we made it but now we've risen to such a level that even though most countries in the world shouldn't think these games should go ahead to hell with you we're china we're going to hold these games whether you want us to or not and if you don't come we don't care completely different so i think this is the manifestation of a new china that is bold aggressive in your face and and willing to go ahead with these games and i honestly as i said to you earlier in the interview i cannot think of another country on the face of the earth that would have the audacity let alone the ability to do what the chinese are doing and i suspect the story at the end of these games is going to be okay it was like living in a world of france kafka meets disneyland hotel california the truman show

olympics but the Chinese actually pulled it off. And I actually think philosophically that raises serious questions. You know that old axiom, you and I are old enough to remember this, you know that, all right, these dictators, they're loathsome, but man, the trains run on time. I think that's what we're seeing here. You may hate our political system, but could any of your democracies convince your people that you were going to hold these games not in a million years

our system allows us to do this i think that's the big story here i think you're right i'm not sure what it means you know like i don't know what it means in the grand scheme of things, especially in today's world where there are these tensions between autocracies and democracies and who does what best. Well, you know, I mean, the Chinese, they're not blunt about this, but I'm going to upset some people listening to you, Peter, but, you know, we love freedom of speech and our right to protest and all that but the chinese kind of point to you know the anti-vax movement in the west maybe even certain people on parliament hill as you and i are

speaking and they will say you may hate our political system, but we don't have to put up with that. One of the things I found amazing when I lived here was I would leave for the summer. And I think especially in Shanghai, because my first time was in Shanghai, then I moved to Beijing. And I would come back in three months and there would be a subway line here where they would have added six stations in the three months i was gone and i remember in toronto it took a decade to build one so the brutal the brutal way they can proceed is whether you like it or not efficient it's just really nasty if you actually happen to get in the way of the plans

you know i remember in the 08 olympics just before it started you know i got there a couple of days beforehand and they suddenly decided that right outside the hotel they needed a pedestrian overpass or underpass um to get to because it was within sight of the birds nest stadium there and they they needed this to to get around having the pedestrians walking across the road they built it in a night you know like i mean there were all these workers thousands of them that turned up before we went to you know we kind of headed off to bed for the night and we got up in the morning was done it was like unbelievable they do some incredible things i mean i remember in shanghai they have a great symphony and a concert hall and there were complaints that the concert hall was

just a little too close to the traffic and we're talking about a major you know i'll go look back to my native montreal like place des arts or you know concert hall in toronto they moved it 20 feet away from where the traffic was to try to improve the acoustics i don't mean that they tore it down and build a new one i mean they moved an entire concert hall just because it was 20 feet too close to the truth so they do things here that just boggle the mind yeah i'll say um listen it's been great of you to do this uh really appreciate it and you've given us a you know a picture of what it what it's been great of you to do this. Really appreciate it. And you've given us a picture of what it's like, not just to cover this story,

but to be in Beijing right about now. So I thank you for that. And whatever you do, don't lose that pass you've got around your neck because I got a feeling if you did, we'd never hear from you again. You'd be gone. Okay. Well, listen, it's a pleasure talking to you, Peter.

All the best and take care of yourself. And hopefully we're back in Canada in a couple of weeks. It's kind of sad in a way, you know, because I find myself actually, you know, I'm looking forward to going home and we're not even, you know, that's not the way I thought. I mean, I really love this country. I love the people here. Can't stand the authorities and like those are they were saying but the people and there's something tragic you know you mentioned the young journalists so there's young journalists here it's their first olympics it's their first trip to china and from everything

you know the food which is you know we're stuck with lousy overpriced hotel food we can't go any of those little side streets have real for them meet real people and so i feel badly for those young journalists and i hope there'll come a time in a new covet era and maybe they'll host an expo here or some other world event that they can go to to see real china because this really is like we are trapped in a very very strange bubble it sure sounds like it anthony thanks you take care of yourself stay well stay safe all right peter good talking to you anthony germain talking to us from beijing where he's covering he's covering the olympic story but he's not you know clearly as you can tell from that conversation he's not fixated on uh you know on all the sports activities but he's fixated on being in this that country at this

time and let me echo his thoughts he's got far more experience obviously in china than i ever had but listen i've been there three or four times since the mid-1970s, as I said, when Mao was still alive. The changes that have taken place in that country over almost 50 years are unbelievable. I mean, it is one of the most modern cities in the world. There's lots of reasons to be concerned about how it got that modern and what modern means in China's world in terms of, well, you heard him talk about all those cameras. We've all got cameras around, but nothing like the Chinese do.

And facial recognition is a big deal there. But it is a spectacular country. And those young journalists are missing out on a whole other part of life, which is away from the authorities. It's just, you know, as much with the people as is possible in an authoritarian state. But when it comes down to just restaurants, oh my gosh, the food there is unbelievable. It's funny, you know, some of the best meals I've ever had in the world,

and I've been lucky enough to travel, as you know, to a lot of different parts. Some of the best meals I've had, obviously, I think the best meals I've ever had are right here at home. I'm married to an incredible cook. But some of the best meals I've had around the world, I can remember one in Ramallah on the West Bank, where we had having this amazing meal. In Baghdad, weeks before the Americans started bombing the hell out of the place, a great meal, Don Murray, our correspondent who was covering that story,

took us to this restaurant in Baghdad. And it was another fabulous meal. And many in Beijing from back in 76, in the 90s and the 00s. I've been lucky. You know, I've really been lucky. And all those meals were not at some five-star restaurant. They were all just like an ordinary place,

often a family-run place. And the food was out of this world. Never forget it. All right. That's it for today's episode of The Bridge. Kind of a mix of different things. But tomorrow, smoke mirrors and the truth.

Old Anderson's warming up in the bullpen. I'm sure he's got lots to say tomorrow. Thursday is your opportunity for your turn, if you will. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. I do look at all the letters. I only use a few. But send in your thoughts on any topic you wish.

And then Friday, of course, is Good Talk with Sean Talley-Bear and Bruce Anderson. So we got lots in the week ahead. Look forward to talking to lots of reaction yesterday to Isaac Bogart's comments about the state of where we are on COVID, the pandemic and so if you have thoughts on that

share them as well alright I'm Peter Mansbridge thanks so much for listening to The Bridge we'll be back in 24 hours.