The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Are Masks On The Way Back?

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

Covid is still with us but what has health experts worried is the spread of respiratory disease especially among youngsters in school. As a result, some authorities are suggesting that masks be put back on.  No mandates, at least not yet.  Dr Zain Chagla joins us.  Plus, the world will be eight billion strong as of tomorrow. Good news or bad? And more with some pretty interesting "end bits".

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. Is it time to start wearing masks again? Bet you didn't want to hear about that. And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. I haven't been here in a month, so it's kind of interesting to get back to good old Stratford. Even though there is a layer of snow on the ground. Now, I know that's not unusual for a lot of people in this country in mid-November. But it sort of came out of nowhere.

A week ago here, they say it was 20 degrees. Gorgeous. Now suddenly they're dealing with snow. Well, after all, it is winter and it is Canada, so let's get at it. Okay, we're going to talk about the latest issues surrounding the suggestion that we start wearing masks again. Not a mandate, just a suggestion. At least that's the way it is right now. We're going to talk about that with one of our doctor friends who has guided us through the last couple of years. week it'll be zane chagla dr zane

chagla from mcmaster university in hamilton uh he's going to be with us but there's something else i wanted to talk about briefly first it came up last week during good talk when um chantelle and bruce and i were talking about the media and, you know, did they get it wrong in terms of the midterm reporting? And was it polls that led them to being wrong? Or was it commentary that led them to being wrong? If, in fact, you believe they were wrong about what they were saying. And I think there's a lot of evidence that a lot of journalists were kind of

off the mark in terms of what was to happen. That's how we came up with the whole, you know, red wave thing. Well, we theorized on a couple of points on this, but my friend, Chris Waddell, who's a professor emeritus at Carleton University, and he's my friend because we worked together. He's a former bureau chief of the CBC in Ottawa, former bureau chief of the Globe and Mail, and for the last 20 years, he's been at Carleton, and where he is a professor emeritus now on the journalism front.

Well, Chris sent me a note and said, you should read this. I was listening to you and Chantel and Bruce on Friday, and I thought you were great, blah, blah, blah, but you should read this. I was listening to you and Chantel and Bruce on Friday and I thought you were great, blah, blah, blah. But you should read this. It's a piece in the Financial Times over the weekend by Edward Luce. And it deals with this issue about why did the media get it So I want to read a chapter, not a chapter, a paragraph from this column, because it's kind of interesting. So let's get at it.

Why did the media so badly judge things, misjudge things? Part of it is risk aversion. As they say about fund managers, it's safer to be wrong together than to risk being wrong alone. Another part of it is simple groupthink. Local media has been erased across North America, which deprives us of the on-the-ground eyes and ears that can challenge conventional wisdom. Even worse, however, is the increasing big media tendency to substitute opinion polls and the predictions of data aggregators for real political reporting.

As some dissonant voices pointed out in the final weeks of the campaign, aggregators such as RealClearP Nate Silver's FiveThirtyEight were flooded with junk polls from right-wing outfits such as Rasmussen and Trafalgar that distorted the polling average in favor of the red-wave narrative. Since big city journalists, chiefly in Washington and New York,

tend to talk to each other or read each other for half of the time, we should not be surprised when they're collectively wrong. This is not just a problem of domestic political coverage. Swampians will recall the jingoistic media consensus for war long after the shock of 9-11 had died down. We remember that. Remember the whole issue around Iraq. So here's the last point. And this is a great example of how you get things wrong.

So what can be done about it? I turned to my friend, this is Ed Luce talking again, I turned to my friend and now retired former colleague, Yorick martin who first started covering u.s politics in the late 1960s yorick's closest journalistic friend was the new york times late great legendary johnny apple in the autumn of 1975 rw apple national political reporter for the new york times and a journalist, a Bigfoot, disappeared from the paper's front page, which he pretty much owned, writes Yerrick. He resurfaced six weeks later with an extraordinary piece of political journalism. for that time, mostly but not exclusively in the South and border states, and wrote that a candidate for president, then registering one to three percent in the national polls, was remarkably

well organized wherever Apple went, and moreover had a message that resonated with many of those Apple talked to. A year later, Jimmy Carter, the blip in the polls, was elected president. Apple's headline was Jimmy who? All right, so you get it. What those two paragraphs, as it turns out, remind me of the old saying that still rings true today. There are no stories in the newsroom. You've got to get out to track the stories. You've got to get out and talk to people. And this is the simple argument

against the groupthink that develops. Now, I'm not going to suggest that every reporter in the United States sat in their office during the midterm campaigns, but a lot of them did. And those were the ones that ended up writing about the Red Wave, because they were reading each other's, they were drinking each other's bathwater. But the ones who got out of the newsroom and got out in the country like R.W. Apple did in the mid-1970s,

they saw a different story. Now this is not exclusively an American issue, it's a Canadian one as well, very much so. And when you miss what people are really talking about, real people in real communities in different parts of the country, then you miss what's happening in your country. So that's the simple message in that column, and I thank Chris Waddell for making sure I saw it,

because it's a great reminder to me of that old theory. I can remember Mike Duffy looking at me in the late 1970s and saying, you know, we used to bug him about never being around the office. Meanwhile, he was breaking stories all the time. And he looked at me one day and he said, don't forget, Peter, there are no stories in the time. And he looked at me one day and he said, don't forget, Peter, there are no stories in the newsroom.

You got to get out to find the stories. And he was right. And he's still right. Okay. We're going to talk about this issue about masking and why is it happening. It's not happening because of COVID. I mean, COVID is still an issue, but it's a different reason that masking, the discussion around masking is happening. And why premiers like Ontario's premier are now saying, wear a mask.

If you're going out, wear a mask. Not ordering you to wear a mask, but suggesting for your own good health. Maybe now's the time to be wearing a mask again. Well, we're going to talk to Zane Chagla from McMaster University about that. But first, let's take this quick break. Back right after this. All right, we're back. Welcome back.

Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. You're listening to The Bridge on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. in its video form on my YouTube channel, and you can find it by simply going to my bio on either Twitter or Instagram and click on the link there. And we actually had an enormous number of subscribers already just after one week. And, you know, join in the fun. It doesn't cost anything. It's free, and we end up sending you the video portion.

I mean, it's the same, exactly the same as the audio portion, except you get to see us. Now, how exciting is that? All right. Let's get to the issue at hand. And that is the masking question. And if you've been with us here on the bridge the last couple of years,

you know that Mondays was always, through the height of the pandemic, dedicated to covering COVID and talking to four doctors in different parts of the country. One in Halifax, one in Edmonton, one in Toronto, one in Hamilton. And today we go to Hamilton and Dr. Zane Chagla,

who's with McMaster University, an infectious disease specialist and someone who has been a great help to us through these last couple of years. So let's bring him in now and find out about this masking issue here he is dr zane chagla so we're back to uh masking how how did we get to this point that we're recommending masking yeah i mean so i you know one of the the the things that came out of what happened over the last two and a half, three years is that there was a significant reduction in the spread of other respiratory viruses outside of COVID-19. That was partly due to masking, physical distancing, working from home, travel restrictions, capacity limits, and some of the other measures that were taken over the last two to three years. But the reality is, is every country, as they began to open up again, people started interacting again. Pre-pandemic normals, they saw a resurgence in the typical respiratory tract infections that

we deal with. And unfortunately, some of these respiratory tract infections have significant effects on some of our most vulnerable populations the population under five years old uh rsv is a major issue we're just at the beginning of our influenza season and we are seeing influenza for the first time in in three years uh to to a significant degree and uh this is the the reality of where we are this is all coming all at once. And, and, you know, it is hitting a lot of the population really quickly in the context of just a significant burden of disease. Tell me about RSV. What is it?

And why is it being the one that seems to be highlighting here? Yeah, absolutely. So RSV, I mean, we've, we've known about RSV for many, many years. It's been a problem in healthcare systems for many years. It really is a typical respiratory virus. It's spread by respiratory particles as well as surfaces. And, you know, it really affects two populations major. It's a virus that causes a lot of inflammation in the airways.

And particularly kids who are very young with floppy or tiny airways can really cause them to struggle to breathe when they're getting RSV infections. children, but children who are premature, children under the age of six months, children with asthma or other underlying conditions, often hospitalized, need for oxygen, needs for a lot of puffers and therapies to really open up their airways and recover. Most people do well with it though. And specifically, older children don't seem to suffer as much as well as adults. And the reason is, is most people have been exposed by about age three. And, and, you know, as, as we get exposed over time, there is that building of immunity that occurs and the next infection becomes less severe, less severe. Now, not to say that this is an infection that's been neglected. There's a lot of work that's being done

around vaccination here because it is a real infection that causes healthcare utilization. In older individuals, again, we can see a burden of disease in people who are immunocompromised, people with emphysema, underlying lung disease. We see hospitalizations as well from it. People who are very, very sick needing high levels of oxygen, ventilators, and other mechanisms to keep them alive. And again, probably an under-recognized burden that we're now recognizing as we understand that respiratory viruses cause significant issues in our communities and lead to healthcare utilization on a healthcare system that can't really deal with it

in the long term. When you mention vaccines, is there a separate vaccine for RSV or is this governed by the annual flu vaccine? flu vaccine? No so RSV vaccines have been looked at for for decades and and unfortunately the first models of RSV vaccines in the 1970s and 1980s not only didn't work very well but actually increased the risk of severe RSV in people that were vaccinated so it was one that's been at the drawing board for some time. In the late 2000s, there was a lot of progress in terms of finding a piece of the virus that really does trigger a good immune response that really reduces severe disease. And just in the

last month, both Pfizer and GSK have reported out preliminary findings from vaccine trials, the first real preliminary findings from vaccine trials really to date that have shown protective effects of a vaccine. The Pfizer trial showed a protective effect of immunizing pregnant mothers with their vaccine in terms of protecting the babies after they were born. And the GSK trial showed a significant protective effect of giving this vaccine to those over the age of 60. So, you know, these are still

clinical trials, but it is hopefully a vaccine that will come, probably not during this year, but there's been a lot of progress in this area. And hopefully again, by next year, we'll have another tool to help with respiratory viruses outside of COVID and influenza vaccines. So in the meantime, aside from the annual flu shot, it's masking, is that the major recommendation? Yeah, look, you know, respiratory viruses spread by respiratory particles. And, you know, again, we've had a lot of factors over the last three years that has really reduced the spread of respiratory viruses. And some of that has been masking and has been the use of masks in high risk settings and poorly ventilated settings where

we can see viral spread in high numbers. Some of it is stuff like working from home. Some of it is staying home when sick. Some of it is, you know, a lot of disinfection and hand washing. Some of it is the travel restrictions. Some of it is capacity limits but you know masks are probably the lowest the easiest one to implement in that context considering the rest of those have significant implications on economy on schooling and other other factors where does covet fit into this so we did see a rise in COVID over the last month, month and a half. There are newer variants, kind of Omicron subspecies that are starting to circulate and are a bit more evasive to the current vaccines. A little bit better with the bivalent vaccines, but still breakthrough infections are occurring. The good news is it does look like the cases are starting to plateau across the country, including in Ontario. And this really does follow the trends that have been seen in most of Western Europe and other places that really kind of were our bellwether a couple of weeks ago.

But, you know, there's still a significant burden. People are still being hospitalized for COVID at a little bit less of a rate than a couple of weeks ago but but you know again is putting a pressure on the system that is already pressured by typical pressures catch-up covid influenza coming rsv and pediatric hospitals and you can kind of see where you know that this really is leading to a health care utilization crisis and in many different sectors in pediatrics and in adult care how bad is it on the pediatric front in terms of pediatric ICUs? It is a lot of hospitalizations. And talking to my colleagues, it's a lot of acuity too, right? So it's not just sick kids going to the emergency room. It's the kids that need to be admitted, sick kids that require oxygen, sick kids that require therapies to kind of open their airways, and some the kids that require intensive care

high levels of oxygen even a ventilator for some and and again it's all occurring at once which is the harder part of all of this right you know in a typical respiratory season absolutely we see children and it's unfortunate but we see children that get rsv but they're spread over six months we're seeing this burden really spread over two to three months and really, again, hitting a lot of children that have never experienced an RSV infection before. Their immune systems are very naive. And unfortunately, some of them do get very sick to try to clear the virus. And hospitals are overloaded? Yeah.

I mean, pediatric health care is limited. You know, we have a few centers of excellence across the country and a limited number of beds across the country. Pediatric ICU and pediatric care is specialized. It's not like every, you know, even every physician, even someone like myself can't step into one of those hospitals and start working. You really have to have that background experience and that background nursing and the background support. And so, you know, it does really put a pressure on these hospitals, not to mention, again, these are hospitals that had to pause with COVID, had to, you know, pause surgeries with COVID. And so a lot of them are still trying to catch up with, you know, all the consequences of delayed care. And again, now having to delay care even further in order to deal with with the the rise in respiratory tract infections you know we all know that the schools especially for for young kids is kind of a breeding ground right it's always been that way in terms of infections being passed back and forth. What do you say to parents now with young kids,

wherever they are in the country, given what's happening? What's the best advice they could have right now? Yeah, I mean, I think there are still some very easy things, right? Influenza vaccine is approved for any child over the age of six months. There are profound effects, not only for the child, but for the community, for children to get vaccinated for influenza. There was some research from one of my colleagues at McMaster that actually showed in a community in Alberta that vaccinating the children protected the adults. And so, you know, not only does it protect those kids who are at risk for severe influenza, but it also protects the adults that those communities in that sense. So so there's definitely something there staying up to date with vaccines, a covid vaccine for kids that's available as well.

So that, you know, again, that burden of disease gets limited as much as possible. You know, I think parents should be cognizant that there is going to be a risk of getting infected with a virus going into this world. And again, you know, it's hard to police that risk we've lived with these viruses for so long but you know their two-year-old who's never seen rsv may get very sick uh and you know in a time when their ability to access health care you know i think most pediatricians will say that you can still get a hospital bed i don't think there's an issue there but it's going to be pressed it's going to be very busy and you you know, emergency room waits, et cetera, are going to be difficult. Right. And so to take those measures to get your kids vaccinated, you know, wearing a mask is probably a reasonable idea.

And particularly, you know, I think we talked to people who are at risk for severe COVID outcomes, particularly the elderly immunocompromised, this may be another, you know, at-risk group. A parent of young kids, you know, is an at-risk group in that sense because those young kids are going to be exposed to the pathogens that parent brings into the home. And so they may consider masking as part of their day-to-day work as well. And I think, you know, again, this will pass.

Respiratory viruses will settle into our community, but this is going to be a tough time. And there are a lot of kids sick right now. And there may be some kids sick in the next few months that really pass it on through their networks into younger children. When you look at a time period, are we talking the next couple of weeks or the next couple of months? Or are we looking at a winter of this? Yeah. or the next couple of months? Or are we looking at a winter of this? Yeah, I mean, we typically see respiratory spread till the kind of late winter, early spring.

That being said, when you look at countries like Japan, Australia, New Zealand that have had these resurgences, they tend to be very sharp. They tend to be very, very profound how fast they go up. But they tend to come down quickly. Now, that's not to say that it isn't going to be the situation here. And, you know, maybe RSV comes up and down very quickly, and we settle out going into the new year. But influenza is just starting now. We are really

just seeing the beginnings of it. We're seeing our first hospitalizations with influenza that we haven't seen in a long time. And so, you know, again, there is going to be one pressure after another, after another here as the respiratory virus, you know, season starts escalating. And so, you know, that catch up in healthcare is going to be some time to get to. And again, we may be dealing with another crisis every few weeks going into this respiratory season. When you look at the numbers on vaccines right now, both for the annual flu shot and for the latest booster, there's been a reluctance, it appears, on the part of a lot of people. And these aren't anti-vaxxers.

These are people who are just sort of tired of it all. Are we still seeing that? Is this sense of kind of the alarm going off in a degree, not mandating masks, but talking about masks again, is this all going to lead, one hopes, or I assume you hope, to an increase in the number of those who are taking the shot? Yeah, I mean mean i hope so i you know i do say you know i do think it does show us a little bit about how far the population has been pushed in

in some of this right and and uh you know getting a vaccine for all of this for influenza for covid you know of the measures in place is probably the easiest one in the context that you have to get the shot once and then your immune system start starts working and that's it uh you know that's a layer of protection that really is a five second opportunity um and so you know i think we really do have to think about the way forward if we are going to you know ask people to step up if we're going to ask people to really you know make sacrifices do things like putting on masks um staying up to date with their vaccines, we really do have to communicate it properly, right? You know, the risk of serious COVID is not there in a 20 year old is there in an 80 year old, especially the 20 year old that's gotten older vaccines, they're not going to be a significant

risk. But there are going to be things they're going to have to do to protect that 80 year old. And there's going to be things that that 20 year old has to do to protect that less than one year old. That person may not have kids. That person may not be connected to a community where either of those people are in their lives, but it has to be communicated to them why they need to consider doing this. And I think we look at the booster vaccine rates, the kid vaccine rates, the influenza vaccine rates, and you can see a population that really is hesitant, that has been pushed quite a while and probably just wants to go back to life as normal. A lot of them have had COVID. And so, you know, the worst of that threat is really through them in that sense. So,

you know, I think that really does present a challenge to public health officials in terms of how to bridge the gap and really have to communicate how and why this is working and what objective outcomes we're looking for as we're we are adding measures onto our populations and i think people are also asking questions about you know why isn't health care capacity where it should be why are we still talking about hospitals being filled you know a decade later through every influenza season, through every respiratory season and now COVID? And, you know, unfortunately, some of those questions really do need to be answered and some solutions need to be out there for people to understand these are temporary measures until something is put in

place to really deal with the capacity issues that unfortunately we lack in in ontario and other provinces how is the system holding up to this and i when i say the system here i mean the human side of it i mean people like yourself and and the nurses and all the experts who have been working on hospital floors you know across the country it just seems that every time we think we're over the hump, like something else comes along, and, you know, we kind of deal with it out here. But within the system, it must be increasingly hard if it wasn't already hard enough. I mean, we started this in the beginning of 2020. We're about to go into 2023. It never seems to stop.

How are people holding up? Yeah, I mean, look, physician and healthcare worker burnout was an issue prior to COVID. It has not gotten better with COVID, I will say that. And we've had lots of people leave the profession. We've had lots of people look for opportunities that don't require, you know, the intensity of care. We see an emergency ICU, medical wards, and other, you know, assets of care really going to community, going to consulting,

going to other places where lifestyle is a whole lot more prioritized. I think obviously there's more, you know, on top of that, there's more demand, you know, with the learning gap for children, there's more demand for parents, on top of that, there's more demand, you know, with with the learning gap for children. There's more demand for parents who are health care workers to start focusing on their kids and making sure that they're, you know, progressing to school. There's the demands of day to day life as things are getting back to normal. And so, yeah, absolutely. You know, rotating from one crisis to another, to another, to another is, is demoralizing, right? And hospitals have done a really good job at trying to engage their staff, trying to understand, try to, you know, acknowledge the moral injury that's been going on. But at the same time, you know, I think,

again, a lot of us do realize, you know, we just have to continue to practice and we have to do what we're trained to do in that sense, you know, and, and, you know, our role as healthcare workers is to care for the patient and, and, and continue working through that. But, you know, there are going to be implications, there are going to be staff losses, there are going to be, you know, the need to train more clinicians to really replace those losses and to prioritize making sure that people are able to work and balance their lives in the same context. And unfortunately, that means that, you know, again, the job of a healthcare worker, you know, 10 years ago, really holding up the system doing as much as possible is probably not going to be the same job as a healthcare worker 10 years later, that they

need to also prioritize their family, their mental health and their community as much as their work. And so there are going to be some difficult times ahead. And again, you know, I think a lot more recognition internally and externally of healthcare worker burnout and healthcare worker mental health issues is going to be important as we move through this. Final point, because there has been, you know, some confusion around this issue, but for those who need a booster and need their flu shot, is the advice still you can do both of those at the same time, same day? Yeah, absolutely.

We have a lot of experience in 2020, you know, early vaccination, 2021 vaccination, 2021, the vaccine campaign then and the booster campaign then, co-administration or shots was part of it. The only age group is the very young, the six to six months to five year old vaccines. a temporary measure as just we want to separate adverse reactions out and kind of attribute them appropriately. But every other age group is totally indicated to get the vaccines, both of the vaccines and can get it on the same day should they choose and probably should get it on the same day should they choose this is just an again an event and an opportunity to do it all at once and again get that respiratory protection. This may be the way for a few years and as we get an RSV vaccine, as we may get combined vaccines and there's some really interesting work that it's only a single inoculation that does three things as we do for children give them multiple inoculations with a

single shot um you know it may just be rather than the flu vaccine you're going to the pharmacy to get your top up um your you know your respiratory season vaccine going forward and and again using that as a single opportunity to reduce burden rather than multiple appointments where you may lose people along the way as always thanks so much for guiding us through all this um it just seems we never stop having you as a guest a frequent guest on the program, which tells us something. And listen, we not, I mean, enjoy it would be the wrong phrase to use, but we respect what you have to tell us. And we appreciate that you share your time with us. No problem. All the best.

Dr. Zane Chagla from McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario. So my takeaway, I'm heading out today to get my flu shot. I had my booster, so I've had like five shots in whatever it's been now, a year and a half. But I'll get my booster, or sorry, I'll get my flu shot as I get one every year. That's always been the case. And I'm of the age where you don't want to miss these things. sorry, I'll get my flu shot as I get one every year. That's always been the case. And I'm of the age where you don't want to miss these things.

And so I will head out there today and try and find a pharmacist who's willing to give me that shot today. Masking, you know, I really thought we were over that. I just came back from Europe over the weekend. And I don't think I saw one person with a mask on the plane. I think we're in the moment of seeing that change a little bit. I know there were people at the airports, some, very, very few, but some who were wearing masks. So are we back at it?

Well, it would sound in some parts of the country that we are back at it. N-bit time, N-bit, N-bit, and those frequent listeners know what that means. Little tidbits of information that you may find useful. Did you know that this week, in fact tomorrow, is a major moment in world history? Yes, it is. Circle tomorrow's date. November 15th, 2022.

And why are we circling it? We're circling it because tomorrow, the world population passes 8 billion. 8 billion humans. Now, I'm old enough to remember the first time I heard about world population. It was in the early 1950s. And at school, you were taught that the world's population in those days was somewhere around 2.5 billion. And you kind of track it back to the earliest times where the estimates were that in 10,000 BC,

there weren't even a billion, right? And 10,000 BC, the numbers indicated, if I can ever find this, get it right, 2 million. Just a measly 2 million on our planet. And then it started going up rapidly, right? Past a billion, somewhere in the early 1800s. In 1800, the estimate was 950 million. But, boys, it had been moving since. As I said, when I was first aware of these numbers, these world population numbers, it was somewhere around 2.5 billion.

That was the early 1950s. So in the year 2000, it was $6.1 billion. Now we're passing $8 billion. If you'd asked me back in the 1950s as a young kid, how many people are going to be in the planet, you know, 70 years from now. I might have said, oh, 3 billion, maybe 3.5 billion. But no, it's 8 billion. Now, the growth rate seems to slow down a little bit. It's only forecast to be, you know, over 10 billion by the year 2100. But the numbers mean one thing. The debate surrounding what those numbers mean is another. And is the world too populated?

Are we consuming our resources at a rate that is only going to endanger the future of the planet? Well, there are certainly some who feel that way. And I think over the next couple of days, you're going to hear some of those voices as we pass that 8 billion mark. So the next time you feel like you're alone in your world, just recognize that there are 8 billion other people out there. Here's a second end bit for today. We might even get three end bits in.

But those of you who have listened to this podcast since it began know that one of my kind of heroes in history is Winston Churchill. Now I recognize, and I'll get mail, there are some Churchill haters out there. And I appreciate your concerns, and it's not everything that fellow did in his life that is something that I'm a fan of, but some things are, and especially as you know, and as the world knows, his actions during the critical years of the mid-30s to the mid-40s were ones which will certainly be remembered. Anyway, one of the things he did,

I mean, he had a very checkered career, as we know in politics. And in the First World War, he was the head of the Royal Navy, he was the Secretary of the Navy, whatever they called it then. And at age 40, in 1915, after the disaster, which was the Dardanelles, Gallipoli, he resigned.

And he sort of withdrew from that part of public life. He went into the army for a while. Actually saw what it was like at the front. So he had that experience. But he also started painting at the age of 40. And it's estimated that he did over 500 works of art during his lifetime. Well, there's a piece in the New York Times last week, actually a fairly lengthy piece.

It's worth reading if you're in any way interested in the Churchill story. And the headlines, Churchill's aura and bright colors draw new fans to his art. Now, he did everything from still life to scenic. I don't think he did any self-portraits, or if he did, I'm not aware of them. But here's the thing. These paintings are now worth a heck of a lot of money. I can remember, I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago, I thought, I've got to get my hands on a piece of Churchill art.

And then when I started checking them out, I thought, I don't think I'll be doing that. How about just a Group of Seven painting? Now, Churchill art is worth a lot of money these days. And for somebody who started at the age of 40 more as a hobby than anything else listen to some of these numbers I mean when he left the Prime Minister's office second time when he won the election around 1950

and when he left in 54 or 55 and handed over the keys to 10 Downing Street to Sir Anthony Eden, who had been his foreign affairs minister during the war years, he gave Eden two paintings. Well, he gave him a few paintings, but two of them, the Eden family just sold at auction at Christie's in London. One sold for $376,000.

That's U.S. dollars. The other one sold for $630,000. But it gets better. You know, he did a view of Marrakesh that he painted in 1943. It sold for $11.5 million to a Belgian collector who also bought a couple of other pieces of Churchill's art.

$2.6 million for one and a painting of St. Paul's Churchyard that he did in 1927 sold for $1.5 million. Here's my favorite. Brad Pitt. You know Brad Pitt? The actor. When he was married to Angelina Jolie,

he purchased a painting of Churchill's and doesn't say what he paid for it, but the previous sale had been almost $3 million, so one assumes it would be more than that. Where did he buy it? He bought it in New Orleans at an art and antiques dealer. And you know what?

I'm in New Orleans this weekend. I've got a speech coming up in New Orleans this weekend, so maybe I'll drop by and see if there are any little ones around. At the art and antiques dealer that Brad Pitt bought a Churchill painting for Angelina Jolie. That worked out well. Anyway, it goes on. There are a lot of Churchill pieces of art,

and they're in some pretty impressive homes all around the world. Not mine. Here's your last bit of end bit. Your last end bit for this day. Remember last week or the week before we talked about pet names that are going out and somebody wrote in and said, oh, that's all very well. What about human names, Mansbridge? Forget about the pet names. Well, hallelujah. Today.com

has a story. These once popular names are going extinct. And I got to tell you, these surprise me. Some of the names that are going extinct. Carol with an E was one of the defining names of the 1930s and 40s. It completely vanished in 2021, according to the creator of Namorology. I don't know how she managed to figure that out, but it says it was vanished. One-syllable nicknames like Jim and Dave used to be really popular given names.

That whole style is falling rapidly out of fashion. She predicts that Bill is going the way of Bob and will disappear in the near future. Now, here's something I didn't know about Bill, and I should have known this about Bill. We all know it comes from William. Short form for William. William is still a top ten name. Thank God, seeing as my son is named William.

And Liam is the number one name for boys. Liam, according to this list maker. And where does Liam come from? No, that's not where it comes from. It comes from William. Liam is a short form of William. I didn't know that. Now I do.

Shows what a sheltered life I've had. Girls' nicknames that are completely gone include Sue and Debbie. Really? Like, I still hear people call Sue. Mid-century nicknames for girls ending in I. Think Sandy. Dominated in the 1950s and 60s, but are now either gone or on the brink. I don't know.

Do you believe this stuff? That's why they call it the end bit. It's the end of the show bit. Tomorrow, Brian Stewart joins us with his weekly commentary on where we are on the ever-unfolding and ever-interesting story of the Ukraine. You heard last week, last week's Brian was saying watch Kersan. Something is about to happen there and still people are unclear whether it's a setup or the real deal.

It appears it was the real deal. The Russians left. The Ukrainians are back in Kersan. Is the picture as simple as that? And what does it mean in the long run? Brian joins us with that and more tomorrow on The Bridge. All right, I'm Peter Mansfors. Thanks so much for listening today. A bit of a grab bag, but some interesting stuff, nevertheless.

Okay, talk to you again in 24 hours. stuff, nevertheless. Okay. Talk to you again in 24 hours.