The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Blunt Talk on "China And The Canadians".

Episode Date: March 23, 2021

We are into the third year of China's detention of two Canadians -- time for some blunt talk about options.  Former diplomat and Vice President of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute Colin Robertson joins us.  Plus, How different countries have different lockdown rules on Covid.

and hello there peter mansbridge here you're just moments away from the latest episode of the bridge where we've got some blunt talk on china and canada Hey, it's Tuesday. Good to talk to you on this Tuesday. Peter Mansbridge here with the latest episode of The Bridge. A lot of reaction to our take yesterday on teachers and the vaccine. And I'll get to it. I'll talk about it a little later in today's program, in the second half,

because the first half we're going to tackle something that we haven't talked about ever since this podcast began. In spite of the fact that this story has been ongoing since December of 2018, you know what we're talking about. It's called, you know, China and the Canadians, China and the two Michaels, China and Meng Wanzhou,

and Canada. It's called a lot of different things, but basically the hard facts are there are two Canadians in jail being held in china secret trials the whole bit meanwhile at the same time almost concurrently there's a leading member of the executive of the Huawei company, being held under house arrest conditions in Vancouver. And there's always been this assumption that the two things are related. I believe they're related.

A lot of people believe they're related, but some people don't believe they're related. And we're going to kind of talk about some of that today. But it is almost, well, it's well into the third year now that the two Michaels, as they're called, they apparently don't even know each other. Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig. They're two Canadians who were working in China, who were picked up almost at the same time in December of 2018.

And they've just recently, in the last couple of days, been on trial. The verdicts, we don't know. The Chinese aren't saying anything about it. We've had Canadian diplomats and diplomats from various other countries standing outside the area where the trial was taking place, but wouldn't be allowed in. So this has got tensions up between Canada and China. There's no question about that.

And meanwhile, these two men, both with families in Canada, kids, being held. Unclear exactly why. So, we wanted to spend a few minutes on that story today because I think it needs some basic questions asked. And the media has been doing a great job for the last couple of years. We haven't touched the story. So, by the time we touch the story today, we're going to ask the basics about what we know about this, what can be done about this, what is being done about it.

And I couldn't think of anybody better to talk to than my old friend Colin Robertson, who I've known for a long time. He's currently the vice president of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. He's a former diplomat with high-ranking positions in different parts of the world. He's a connected guy. He knows his stuff. And so I wanted to talk to Colin about this story. So time to listen in on the conversation.

Here we go. Now, Colin, I know you want to talk about sanctions and we will talk about sanctions, but I want to start off with something much more simple. Why don't we just trade? Like what is the problem with saying you've had a couple of our guys for almost three years. We've got somebody you're interested in why don't we just do an exchange we don't trade for two reasons first of all as

mr trudeau and others have talked about there's the whole rule of law it's a separate part of how we manage things so the judiciary sees this through the second reason we don't trade and i think this is the more important one is because the Chinese don't want to do a trade. I've talked with the ambassador. I've talked with Chinese officials. And they've been unilaterally in saying that free Meng Wanzhou, and we will then consider, but this is an entirely different case, the two Michaels. So there's no guarantee, if we were to send her back, that we would ever see the two Michaels on a timely basis. They may well decide to keep the Michaels simply as proof that they can do this. You really believe that?

I mean, you really don't think this is all about her getting her back? Oh, I think they do want her back. In Chinese eyes, she's a princess. The chief financial officer for one of their few really truly world-class companies huawei but i i do believe that they they feel that we are that they have decided that we are sort of third tier and they've they've uh they don't send us the same quality of ambassadors anymore they look at us as a tributary of the United States in Mao's parlance. And as one official said to me, only half ingest a running dog of American imperialism.

So what do you think they really believe in terms of these two Canadians, the two Michaels, as we call them? I believe that they think that they may have been involved in espionage. There is no proof. I personally do not believe this, but I think that there are those who do think, in the case of Michael Kovrig, whose job at our embassy was to reach out to dissidents that he may have passed over the line. Again, I do not believe so, and that is what what his job was and he's been questioned on that well he's been held michael spavor is a bit more murky because that involves north korea and that's that gets you into a different area but i i do i do not think they were just picked at random i do

think that they they decided that there was uh in chinese But again, they don't practice the rule of law. And we've not seen any of the evidence. And of course, the trials were secret. So we don't know what their evidence was. And I personally do not believe that Michael Kovrig, who I know enough about, was guilty of espionage. In his work for the International Crisis Group, again, he was reaching out to dissident groups in china just

as our officials did in the soviet union during the cold war okay i'm going to get to to sanctions after this question and this question is about the prime minister do do you think he has reached out to president chi directly and if he hasn't should he i think he tried reached out to President Xi directly? And if he hasn't, should he? I think he tried early on. The Chinese are very particular minded. So in their eyes, the prime minister should talk to Premier Liu, not to the president. But I think after this happened, where we had in place a whole framework of outreach involving our national security advisor, involving the foreign minister, involving the environment minister, because we'd really set up a whole series of high-level exchanges with the Chinese. I do believe, and I'm confident that the prime minister reached out, but didn't get an answer.

The foreign minister reached out, didn't get an answer. The Chinese gave us a cold shoulder. Well, if none of these things work why would sanctions work because i think sanctions the chinese understand strength from their perspective i think we've turned the cheek for so long they think that we are not only a tributary of the united states but we're also weak and i think that it's time for us now, especially now that the trials have been completed, and we don't even know what the verdicts are, but I think the verdicts, as they say, the 99% case that they're guilty, you don't get to that stage unless the Chinese have decided that we now need to do more than

simply escalate the rhetoric and the arbitrary detention declaration needs teeth. Well, what kind of teeth are we talking about then? What could we put down as a sanction that would impress the Chinese or force some kind of reconsideration of their position? Well, I'd rule out trade sanctions because any trade sanction that we've taken, whether when we took it in the Russians or we've taken it to others, usually involves our resources. And it hurts our farmers particularly. So, and the Chinese, of course, have applied the sanctions against us first on beef and pork until they found they needed it. Then they lifted it.

They've still got it applied to some of our canola. but they're more than happy to have other resources like potash and uranium so i think we have to think asymmetrically and out of the box what i would do in terms of the arbitrary detention declaration would the teeth i would put to it would say the one thing that the chinese prize especially the ruling elite, the Chinese Communist Party cadres, is an education for their children in the West, especially in English-speaking countries. So I would say, if you're a member of the Chinese Communist Party elite, your children can't study in the Five Eyes countries.

That's who I'd start with canada you know we've got at any one time about 150 000 chinese students in canada so i'm not ruling them all out i'm only ruling out that tiny elite that uh are part of the million members of the chinese communist party and i think the united states would go along the british potentially go along the australians who are also feeling the chinese lash not so sure about new zealand but i'd start with them and then i would approach the other signatories or 61 of them the arbitrary declaration and say we democracies should stand together this is something we could legitimately do and and there's some other things i do the government today is applying the magnitsky sanctions against officials in Xinjiang over their treatment

of the Uyghurs, which our House of Commons has described as genocide. The European Union, the United Kingdom, and the United States and Canada acting together. I think I would also apply the Magnitsky sanctions against those who are holding the Michaels, the prison warder, the people that were involved in the trials in Danang and today in Beijing. I'd also, the Chinese have a lot of investment here.

And a lot of that investment comes from Chinese Communist Party officials. I would publish what their investments are and who the beneficiaries are. You can be sure there'd be screaming in Beijing when they see that list. And then, of course, we've got the Olympics. I'm not so sure about a boycott, but I think what I would do is I'd turn to our Olympians and say, do you really want to do the Games in a country that on a daily basis violates the spirit of the Olympics? Respect and tolerance um i can see a lot of possibilities in in most of what you've outlined i i'm not a big one on

the olympic stuff because i've just witnessed it in the past uh where it's not necessarily had any impact at all and the athletes really they get they get upset by it because they're saying hey we're not political we don't want to be involved in this kind of stuff we just want to be there for the athletics um but i i i see a lot of the the other stuff and especially the this issue of students and education and and you know i think most canadians don't understand just how many uh chinese students come to the west for their education and as you say a good chunk of that number are families from the communist party uh officials um president xi jinting's daughter went to harvard right wish we'd all gone to harvard right yeah no i i do think that this is something i i agree with you in the olympics for

the reasons you outline i think it hurts the the the the athletes i think it would have to be a bottoms up by the athletes saying we don't we want to do the games but we we don't want to go to china there are other venues you know we could we could refurbish calgary. We could go back to Whistler, Vancouver. But I think that one's... We've also got Chinese athletes using our facilities in Calgary. I think we should question that. Because for the Chinese, the Olympics really are a showcase. As we saw the last time, the Summer Games, this is for them showing China ascending. I think we have to do things which really hit the elite, not the people.

I think keep the people-to-people relationships going, the cultural relationships, the educational exchanges, but be mindful that some of these things are used as surrogates for the United Front activities, for example. Last question. You know, as I mentioned earlier earlier we're into the third year of the situation um has canada handled this poorly yes i think we have handled it poorly i think we made a mistake right off the top i think there was something to what john manley said about you know a bit of creative incompetence because as we've later learned, the Americans that approached a number of, I don't think we thought through the consequences of our initial action. Having done that, as I say, I don't agree with those who say you could do a swap

because I just don't think it's on. But I do think that it underlines why we've got to have a first-class diplomatic service. And perhaps we should think about creating a national security agency within our prime minister's office or the privy council office similar to what the british have done and the australians have done because these the world is much more complex and complicated and we're moving into i think an era once again of superpower great power confrontation and we're going to really need uh experience and expertise and that kind of judgment that i'm not sure we've got right now what about those who argue china doesn't need us but we need

china i think we need china for trade purposes but there's a lot that we have that china would like i never forget one chinese ambassador saying to me again half in jest could we buy saskatchewan because for agriculture and all the resources uranium potash uh oil um no they they see us uh and this underlines one of our problems in canada and that's getting being able to get our goods in a meaningful way to both coasts where we can get world value. Our oil and gas are the prime example of that, but we've got problems with our rail transport,

and we really do have to do a better job because we've got the capacity in Canada, but it's getting into market now, particularly getting it to Asian because that's the fastest growing part of the world. Colin, it's always good to talk to you and do appreciate having a chance to talk to you on this today. Thanks, Peter. Colin Robertson, he's the vice president of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. And yes, we do appreciate his time and kind of the blunt talk that we've had on this issue which is one that has been you know obviously got the people at the foreign

affairs department uh you know running in circles over the last more than two years trying to work out some kind of arrangement with china that would free these two canad So far, that has not worked. Colin giving us a few ideas of what might work. But boy, this is a tough one. And meanwhile, you've got two lives hanging in the balance and two families waiting desperately for some good word from Beijing on their husband, their father, and whether or not either one of these two Canadians will be released,

hopefully both of them, and hopefully soon. Okay, we're going to switch topics. We're going to move over to the COVID story and part of what we talked about yesterday, this whole issue of teachers and vaccines. So yesterday, you know, I told you the story about how I got the vaccine over the weekend. And it was all straight up and above board. And, you know, I was legitimately vaccinated. In other words, I, you know, I passed the various tests needed to get one's vaccine.

I was old enough. I didn't have a temperature. All the right things. And I didn't have a temperature. All the right things. And I got one in a pharmacy. And, you know, both Bruce and Chantel had had vaccines last week. And then Bruce talked about this whole issue about, you know, being emotional about it. And so I was prepared for that. But in fact, that's not what happened to me.

I didn't. Maybe I was just so caught up in the buzz around the pharmacy I was in because it was nuts in there in terms of people hoping to get a vaccine. The phone's ringing the whole bit. So I was just in and out in a relatively quick time, less than half an hour. And then afterwards, as opposed to being emotional, I was kind of feeling guilty is probably too strong a word. But I started thinking, you know, look kindergarten teacher, and who was, you know, very blunt in her assessment of the situation about why teachers should be getting the vaccine

and why weren't they getting the vaccine, given the difficult situation they were in. And she mentioned that there was, you know, there were problems for teachers and teachers shortage of supply teachers and rising COVID cases leaving some schools scrambling on what to do. Well, wouldn't you know it, right? I got reaction to that on all fronts.

A lot of support for that argument that teachers should have vaccines. Wake up this morning and the Toronto Star, one of its banner stories is exactly that. A shortage of supply teachers and rising COVID cases leave school boards scrambling. And the numbers, you know, the numbers in Ontario and certain other provinces west of Ontario, not east, not Quebec, not the Atlantic Canada, but numbers going up. And now I know different provinces have different setups

with schools right now and teaching. But still, this is a growing story. It's certainly a growing story here in this part of the country because teachers are upset. Some won't, you know, supply teachers won't take the assignments. I got a letter overnight from a retired teacher who says that she's being, you know, pestered is the wrong word, but she's being asked repeatedly to come in on a supply basis. She's saying no because of the health conditions and the health concerns. And yet at the same time, I also got a note from the husband of a teacher in Manitoba. It was a text, I'll just read you a short text.

Teachers are on the front line, but there are worse things, like bus drivers, cab drivers, grocery clerks, waitstaff. And the thing about them is life was a struggle before COVID. At least teachers make a good living with job security and decent holidays. Now, that's not a negative about teachers. He's married to a teacher. He feels for teachers. But he's reminding us that there are others out there

who are essential workers in vulnerable positions. Health-wise, who don't have it so good at any time. So this is a real tough one. You know, I don't envy those who have to come up with the list of who gets what when. Clearly, it's made some people uncomfortable and unhappy.

I'll admit it. I was kind of unhappy last week. I didn't quite understand why people younger than me, if the major area was age, and this is outside of those who had vulnerable health conditions, but if the major factor was age,

why was I watching people younger than me getting vaccines and I couldn't get a vaccine? Now, that changed on the weekend. And it seems to be changing rapidly right now, certainly in this area. But still, there's the, you know, the vaccine supply issue. It's still very much out there. Anyway, as always, I learn from you. I learn from you from the letters you write and the emails you send to the Mansbridge podcast

at gmail.com. And I really appreciate hearing from you and keeping us thinking about the situation that we're in and whether or not there's a better way. I mean, there's always going to be a better way. Right? But there had to be a way to start with. And it's adapting as we go and as we witness. Okay, a couple of things. Before we go and as we witness. Okay, a couple of things before we go. I love this story, if I can just find it. And it's a sense of how different countries in different parts of the world are dealing with the coronavirus.

It was put out by CBS News just in the last couple of days. And it's interesting because, you know, we talk about how different provinces have different rules and how that's kind of weird in one country. Well, different countries certainly have different rules, and we're going to run through some of them, just some of the basics. France, as you know, has been one of the hardest-hit countries in Europe

with over 4 million cases and more than 91,000 deaths. That was as of, I 91,000 deaths. That was as of last Friday. The Paris area is under a new lockdown to combat a surge of cases. Residents can go outside for exercise, but only within 10 kilometers of their homes. People are not allowed to travel to other parts of the country without proof of a valid reason, such as a death in the family or business that cannot be done remotely. Cafes, restaurants, museums, theaters, and ski resorts have been closed across France since October 30th, with no date set for reopening. A nationwide curfew has kept people from home from 6 p.m until 6 a.m every night since mid-january so they're not loosening up they're not ending lockdowns

masks are required on public transportation in france on top of that france's national academy of medicine has urged people to keep quiet, no talking, no phone calls, to reduce the spread of germs on public transit and whenever social distancing is not possible. Officials specify that this is not an obligation, but a recommendation. Always starts as a recommendation, right? Abu Dhabi. I'm going to rip off the stapler here.

Since September 2020, most passengers arriving in Abu Dhabi and the United Arab Emirates are required to wear a tracking wristband during the mandatory 10-day home quarantine. All travelers also have to undergo thermal screening and COVID-19 testing at the airport. That's kind of similar to some of what we see, but the tracking wristband, we don't have that. Singapore started requiring people to carry a digital device or use an app to help authorities track any contacts with coronavirus cases. It is mandatory for entering shopping malls and public places. A digital device. Additionally, travelers entering Singapore from most countries

are required to serve a 14-day quarantine at a government-designated facilities at the traveler's expense. Okay, we've seen that in a number of places. But it's very uneven. One woman said she spent her entire quarantine in a five-star hotel. While others recounted their experience holed up in rooms without windows and filled with, wait for it, cockroaches. Similar quarantine requirements are also in place for most visitors traveling to Kuwait, Hong Kong, and Australia. Mexico,

they've got a junk food crackdown. They're taking steps to ban the sale and marketing of junk food and sugary drinks to minors out of concern that health conditions such as diabetes and obesity were putting people at higher risk to get COVID. Having a little trouble separating the pages here. Spain. Restrictions vary widely by region, but gatherings of over six people are banned across Spain

and a national nightly curfew from 10 or 11 p.m. to 6 a.m., depending on the region is currently in place. Spain closed nightclubs, also banned smoking in outdoor public places where people can't maintain social distancing of at least six feet. The Spanish health ministry said it was concerned that smokers

could transfer the virus to other people in droplets exhaled with smoke. Catalonia's regional government asked in November that all public transport riders refrain from speaking, eating and drinking to prevent further spreading of the virus. Germany. It's recorded its highest number of new COVID-19 infections since January and is extending its current lockdown until March 28th.

Another week. It's easing some restrictions to allow non-essential stores and other businesses to reopen only in areas with relatively low infection rates. In many places, a maximum of five people from no more than two households are allowed to gather in a home but children under the age of 14 are not included in that count most stores have been closed since December nationwide and restaurants bars sports and entertainment venues have been closed since November hotels are allowed to accommodate business travelers only. And finally, South Africa. It's kind of a snapshot of the world, right? South Africa.

It was home to one of the world's most stringent lockdowns. At the start of the pandemic, South Africa introduced a total ban on alcohol sales, which lasted a couple of months. Then it was pulled back. Then they put it in months. Then it was pulled back. Then they put it in again. Then it was pulled back. Now it's in again.

Reckless behavior due to alcohol intoxication has contributed to increased transmission. Alcohol-related accidents and violence are putting pressure on our hospital emergency units. That's the president, Cyril Ramaphosa. South Africa also imposed an unprecedented ban on cigarette sales to help prevent respiratory problems associated with COVID-19. The ban lasted for over three months. So, as we said, you know, in our country, we're looking at different rules in different provinces and different regions.

And in the world, we're seeing different, you know, control measures in different countries and sometimes in those countries within those regions within the country as they try to kind of isolate hotspots. Last one. This is a quick one. And I, you know, I saw this and I thought, you know, we're talking about schools and I try to remember many, many decades ago when I went to school.

And I remember one of the fun things about certainly those early grades was getting the chance to go to the library, where if you wanted to borrow a book, you had to sign it out. And they had one of those little folders stuck in the back of the book where you'd put in, you'd fill out the card with your name and when you were taking it and when you'd return it and you'd slip it in that folder. Now, I don't know whether libraries still work the same way. I'm sure they're more digital these days and have a much better tracking system, but that's what it was like when I went to the library. And every once in in a while you'll be at a, you know, one of those outdoor flea markets or garage sales and there'll be a box of books there and you'll go through the books to see if there's anything that kind of fits what you'd like to read.

And every once in a while you'll see something that's stamped with, you know, some library somewhere in the country. And then it'll be clear that it's, you know, it was put on sale. But every once in a while, something slips through the system, right? Somebody doesn't return the book. New York Times had a piece the other day. The headline,

she kept a library book for 63 years. It was time to return it. And it's the story of Betty Diamond of Madison, Wisconsin. She had a vintage children's hardback turned. It was called Old Paul, the Mighty logger by glenn rounds a collection of paul bunyan tall tales according to the date stamped on the borrowing card inside that's what i was talking about those little borrowing cards right according to the date stamped on the borrowing card inside, it was about 23,000 days late. Betty had borrowed that book when she was like 10 or 11 years old

with a due date to return on July 10, 1957. Well, after 63 years, Betty figured, you know what? I better send this book back. And she did, along with a $500 donation to the Queens Public Library, which more than covered the late fees. you know I bet there's a lot of books sitting in a lot of basements and attics that belong in libraries and different places

that you know just simply weren't returned because they forgot so you can never be too late apparently with returning a book Forgot. So you can never be too late, apparently, with returning a book. And they have a picture of the book, Old Paul. And it looks in fabulous shape. It doesn't look like it's been overread in the last whatever 60, 70 years. But I guess it's going back on the shelf at the Queen's Public Library.

That wraps her up for today. Tomorrow's a big day. It's Wednesday and you know what that means with the regular edition of the bid bridge it's smoke mirrors and the truth with bruce anderson which is followed tomorrow at one o'clock eastern on sirius xm channel 167 by a special edition of the bridge which is an interview with the Prime Minister. Justin Trudeau is going to be on The Bridge tomorrow. And, you know, we'll talk to him.

I've always been a believer in trying to isolate a few issues as opposed to going after a whole bunch of issues where you actually, experiences told me, you don't actually make a lot of headway by asking you know a dozen different questions so i'll try to concentrate on a few areas and hopefully we'll make some headway we never know but the prime minister has been good enough to join the bridge for tomorrow and we can't wait to uh to have the opportunity to question him on major issues obviously like the pandemic and the vaccine rollout and everything that relates to that, as well as a couple of other issues.

So here's the way it's going to roll out. On the 12 o'clock edition with Smoke, Mirrors and the Truth, we'll run an excerpt, a significant excerpt, of the Prime Minister's interview, and Bruce and I will talk about that. Then at 1 o'clock, it's the full interview. And we might bring in a couple of guests at the end of it. A couple of doctors, infectious disease specialists, to talk about what they heard from the Prime Minister.

So that's 1 o'clock, special edition of The Bridge, and you're saying, okay, how do I get that? Well, obviously, if you subscribe to SiriusXM, you can get it. It'll be right there on channel 167. The Bridge at 12 o'clock is on channel 167 as well, but it's also available as a podcast on all your normal podcast platforms. If you want to hear the full interview with the Prime Minister, there is a special offer

on right now you go to siriusxm.ca slash peter mansbridge register with your email only that's all you have to put down there you'll get a month free of SiriusXM streaming so you'll be able to listen to the interview. All right? I know people keep writing to me and say, oh, how do I listen? That's how you listen. Okay?

Just go to the website. It's all there. And, Thursday, of course, aside from the regular edition of The Bridge, there's also Good Talk with Chantelle Hebert and Bruce Anderson. Same thing. You know, it's at 5 o'clock Eastern on SiriusXM channel 167. If you don't already subscribe to SiriusXM,

you can get that free access for a month. So that would include that one. Okay. That wraps would include that one. Okay. That wraps her up for today. Thanks so much for listening. It's been the bridge. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Tomorrow's a big day around here.

Look forward to talking to you. Look forward to you listening. Cheers. Bye.