The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Blunt Talk on Misinformation

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

Our regular Monday chat with one of the country's top infectious disease specialists keeps our string of blunt talk going.  Dr Isaac Bogotch on the misinformation trail hitting hard on who is dealing in misinfo.  Also today a 76 year old anti-Nazi bomb clears out a former Canadian gathering place. And you thought "Citizen Kane" was the top movie of all time?  Maybe not!

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge, and we've got a story for you that goes back 76 years. Like you, I have been so grateful and so thankful for frontline workers during the COVID crisis. Let's just talk about the frontline workers at SickKids, which is one of the world's best children's hospitals. SickKids doctors also work behind the scenes on incredible breakthroughs to help our kids and generations to come. Listen to their inspiring stories in a new season of the popular podcast called SickKids Versus.

Each episode explores a major SickKids discovery, like, well, a virus- super molecule or a cure for hard to treat cancers. Just visit sickkidsfoundation.com slash podcast or search Sick Kids Versus and spell versus VS. So Sick Kids VS. You'll be amazed at what you learn. And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here once again. It's Monday, and you know what that means. We try to kind of put things in perspective on the COVID story, on the coronavirus, sort of where we are in Canada and some of the things that are confronting not only us, but the medical care, health care workers

who are helping us through this pandemic. And we're going to do that as we usually do with one of the top infectious disease specialists in the country. This week, it's the turn of Dr. Isaac Bogoch, and as you know, Dr. Bogoch is never shy about his opinions, and he certainly isn't today. We'll get to that in just a moment, but I'm going to tell you a little story, first of all, which I, you know, it certainly impressed me when I heard it over the weekend. First of all, I go back to 1985. 1985, I was asked to go to Germany to speak to two Canadian clubs. And they were both in Germany at Canadian forces bases.

One at Lahr, where the army was stationed. This was during the Cold War, right? The Canadian army was very much in evidence in Lahr, West Germany. And the Air Force was very much in evidence in Baden, which was where the Air Force was stationed in its concrete bunkers and flew 104s and, I guess, CF-18s as well from Baden. I can't remember for sure, but I know there were 104s. The Starfighter, kind of nicknamed also the Widowmaker because it was a single- single pilot aircraft, but there were not a lot of accidents, but when they were accidents, they were catastrophic.

Anyway, I was invited over there. It was spring, I believe, 1985. The weather was beautiful. That part of Germany is quite gorgeous, especially around the Baden area. And I had two speeches. I remember them both. The one in Lahr was in the main officer's mess at Lahr.

So it was a beautiful building. Very nice gardens outside. So why am I telling you this? I'm telling you because in the last few days, that same building and that same garden has been the focus of attention of the people who live in the area around Lar. The Canadian forces have long since left. When the Cold War ended, we eventually wound down both those bases. But the building at Lar, where it had been the officers' mess and in which I spoke all

those years ago, still remains. But it was sold to a developer and the plan was to build new homes and a condominium tower. And it still is the plan. And so preparation work was being done this spring. So, a friend of mine got a letter from a friend of his. And I'll just read you a part of it. Yesterday we had a special event in Lar on the place where the officers used to meet

and where so many Canadian festivals took place. There's a rather huge lawn in front of the house. It's intended to build three houses there, with many condominiums there as well. When the machines dug out the ground, they found about nine meters under the surface, so, you know, 30 feet under the surface, a 250-kilogram bomb. That's like a 500-pounder. Part of an American attack by the U.S. Air Force in April of 1945, in the final days of the Nazi Third Reich.

So in a circle of 300 meters around the place, all the people living there had to leave their homes for about two hours until the bomb was made safe. We're all thankful that during all this 76 years, nothing happened. We included a couple of pictures. And it's a 500-pounder already. It included a couple of pictures. And it's a 500-pounder already. It's a big bomb. It was being hoisted out of the ground, I guess after

it had been made safe. In other words, the detonator, they had ensured that the detonator was disconnected. Obviously it didn't explode on impact, so there was already a problem. But I thought, that's a pretty neat story, because I've been there. I was speaking right there within, you know, a small toss of a stone from that very spot where the bomb was found was one of my speeches in 1985. Go figure.

All right, so I've told you my little story. I thought it was pretty interesting. And I think it's pretty interesting that still, all these years later, almost a century later now, you still keep hearing stories like this of unexploded bombs. You hear them a lot out of London, that through the, especially the period of the Battle of Britain through the months of, summer months of 1940 and the fall, when thousands and thousands of bombs

were dropped on London. You know, there's bombs in the Thames, there's bombs at construction sites, and, you know, they go through the process of taking these bombs away, digging them up and moving them out. I mean, obviously, if the bomb didn't explode on impact, the odds are something's not right with that bomb. And so those who were involved in the removal must take some comfort in that, but never enough comfort to lose their guard.

That's dangerous work. But as I said, all these years later, they still find them. They still find them in Britain. They still find them over northwest Europe, and especially in Germany from the various bombing raids that took place there. All right. As you know, we've been talking throughout this pandemic to some of the top

infectious disease specialists in Canada, in different parts of the country, getting an update every, especially Monday mornings on what's been going on, how they're seeing things and what their particular mood is. They've all been good. Dr. Isaac Boguch in Toronto was one of those. And we're going to talk to him again right after this. You still trying to find ways to get into the world of crypto? Well, look no further. BitBuy is Canada's number one platform for buying and selling Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

BitBuy has launched a brand new app and website with a new look, lower fees, and new coins. BitBuy is your one-stop shop to get involved and super easy to use for beginners. Visit BitBuy.ca or download the BitBuy is your one-stop shop to get involved and super easy to use for beginners. Visit bitbuy.ca or download the BitBuy app. Enter referral code PODCAST20 to get $20 free when you make your first deposit. All right, Dr. Isaac Bogoch teaches at the University of Toronto, but he's also involved on a daily basis and has been for more than a year now in dealing with the COVID story up front and personal, right, with those who are suffering from the disease in Toronto area hospitals. He's also involved in the vaccine task force, making and recommending to the Ontario government decisions

about how the vaccine rollout is done. And, you know, he's not been shy about, you know, criticizing when he thinks criticism is needed, certainly of government officials and others. And he, you know, not surprisingly, these doctors, when they are facing this day after day after day and seeing the damage that's occurring, they've got increasingly not shy about giving their opinions.

And Dr. Bogoch is in that way today, perhaps in ways that you might be surprised. So let's get to it. Here's Dr. Isaac Bogoch speaking with The Bridge. Well, one of the things that amazes me about you is that not only do you have all the real stuff that you have to worry about in terms of what's going on at the hospital, what's going on with the vaccine program, it's that you seem to spend quite a bit of time knocking down some of the stuff that's on social media. Now you must be doing this on, on your own. Like it's not part of your job, but you're somehow finding time for it. I mean, people are, are loving it because they're learning from it,

but why did you decide to do that? I don't know absolutely hate social media i think twitter is net harm um i i literally log in i'll post something if i see something interesting i'll scroll for a minute or two get angry or pissed off at someone or something and then leave in disgust and that's that i really hate it um i'll hopefully i'll step back when the pandemic starts to wind down it's crazy it's absolutely nuts to watch misinformation form in real time um it's crazy to see how things that have no reason to be polarized or politicized, get polarized and politicized. Um,

you know, you've obviously got random accounts. You've got the general public, you've got curious observers, but like there are people who should know better. Like there are doctors and scientists and, you know, healthcare providers who are really, it's mind boggling to me. Like it's, there's misinformation, you know, that old, like out of the horror movie, you know, the call is coming from inside the house.

Yeah. Sometimes it is. It's crazy. Anyways, I'm, I've never been a fan of it, and I'll be walking it back a lot when things start to settle down. Well, I can tell you that people appreciate it. People who are honestly trying to understand what's going on here, I think really appreciate what you're doing.

Thanks. There's some good things, right? Sure. I think really appreciate what you're doing. And when you, you know, you, you, there's some good things, right? You see some smart scientists or some smart docs who have like really interesting things to say or good public health advice, or just like good science communication. I really enjoy that. And I mean, I only, like, I'm not actually on that much. I follow infectious diseases medicine science public health and hockey like that's basically all i follow and a few pilots that

post really cool pictures like that's it but i don't i i try not to spend a lot of time on social media i just i'm not a fan it bothers bothers me when I, and clearly it bothers you, when you see people within the health community, whether it's doctors or some form of public health official, saying stuff that is like wacky. Does that happen in the hospital? Do you get into these kind of discussions or debates with other professionals on some of the core issues here?

No. I mean, so, yes, for sure. I mean, long before COVID-19. You know, very civil, reasonable debates, discussions. This occurs all the time in medicine and science, right? I love it. It's healthy and it's important. We should not all be singing from the same playbook.

I mean, it's it's it's great to have a diversity of thought and a diversity of opinions and multiple approaches to the same problem. I think it's great. Obviously, I keep it civil, but it's completely OK to disagree and debate on social media. First of all, it's much not all, but sometimes it's not civil, which is just obnoxious. Secondly, you really see polarization, like intentional polarization, intentional politicization. Okay. Like, I guess you can do that. That's fine. Each to their own own but you sort of step back and ask like is this like what's the purpose like are you is this helping like does this do anything other than split people apart farther like i don't know i mean i get on the other hand too you never you

know each everyone's entitled to say whatever they want to say. I would never, ever want to tell anyone to, you know, shut up or anything like that. Like people can truly, they have the freedom to say whatever they want to say. I appreciate advocacy comes in many forms. But like, there's got to be some checks and balances here. And, and I don't know, i think there's just been some uh bizarre comments uh you know repeatedly from some from people in the field and you know everyone's entitled to a bad day everyone's entitled to a bad week some people have had a bad pandemic i don't know it's i think at this point i just the beautiful part about social media is

i just turn it off and the problem goes away like i move on with my life yeah that i mean that is the trick that is what you need to do um let me get into some some kind of questions of the week because they you know last week I was concerned, or not concerned, but I was asking a lot of questions about, you know, the whole second dose issue and, you know, how well protected are you with just one dose and for how long? And it's kind of an extension of that

that I want to get into here. And it's this whole second dose issue. You know, one of the areas that you're an expert on is vaccines and so when they tell us like i'm astrazeneca as are a lot of people in canada right now that it would second dose would be somewhere between four weeks and four months that's a big gap and it definitely does go beyond what, you know, what was suggested by the manufacturer at the time. And the same with, you know, Pfizer and Moderna.

Does that worry you if you have to wait for four months? I mean, what's left in punch of your first dose by that point? Yeah. So let's be clear here. if we did not have a shortage of vaccines we could vaccinate people as per the you know the guidance of you know a few weeks between doses of the vaccines but but obviously we don't have enough vaccines uh we have a lot of vaccines it's it's it's fair to say that to say that they're coming into the country. We're getting more and more. We can expand the vaccine program. But there's a balance between

the public health approach, which is protect the population versus the individual approach. And you have to balance this. The first dose fast approach is smart. Based on the resources that we have, the first dose fast approach is the smart approach. You do provide a lot of people with very reasonable protection following one dose, and then you apply that to a population level. You can quell this pandemic faster, and that's that. Now, obviously, getting into the weeds here, four months is a long time. It's probably okay, keyword probably okay, for a lot of people, but it's also probably not okay for other groups.

And those are groups that just don't mount the same degree of an immune response. In Ontario, for example, we've said, you know what, we're going to stick to the guidance with the 21 or 28 day interval between dose one and dose two for people with organ transplantation and for people with various transplantation and for people with various types of cancers or chemotherapies. We know they don't have the same immune response. I could cite data and expand that list to include a number of other healthcare conditions. I could expand it to an age cutoff over, pick a number. It's not hard to argue for more people to go into that group. And you know what?

We may see the province pivoted include more and more people in that group. But on top of that, it all comes at a cost, right? It just comes at a cost. The more people that you give those second doses fast to the fewer people you're, you're, you're taking away, right? You're just not expanding the reach of the vaccine program. And, you know, we're in a problem like tomorrow or what is it? Monday, the third, you know, everyone who's 18 years of age and older in a hotspot,

114 hotspot neighborhoods, postal codes in Ontario will be eligible for vaccination. That's a lot of people like that's a lot of people. And you really, you know, this is smart strategy. Like it's the ethical and right thing to do. These are people who have been bearing the brunt of the pandemic from the very beginning. And there's a lot of people there. It's, it's the ethical thing to do. It also quells the pandemic faster. Like you can't run a program like that.

If you're giving second doses fast to a lot of other people you just you just can't run like there are limited there still are limited resources there's more of the limited resources around but they're still limited so there's got to be a balancing act and then you start getting into the what about is it like well you did it for you know organ transplantation what about this group what about that group and they're all right. Like everyone's right. But at some point you have to draw the line. My bias is I would have been more inclusive in the second dose, in the second doses to a, to a larger group of people. Okay.

That's my opinion. The province went in a slightly different direction. Fine. Maybe they'll budge a little bit. I think the take home point though, from all this, pardon me for rambling on, but the take-home point is we'll probably not reach the four-month mark for a lot of people. As we move through May, as we move through June, as we start getting into July, like, we really, really will be swimming in vaccines. Like, there really are going to be a lot of vaccines in the country,

and I think a lot of people will get their second dose before that four month mark. Okay. That's encouraging. Tell me about the concern of the current round of vaccines versus the variants. And I guess, especially the one that seems to be ravaging India at the moment? Yeah, so, I mean, as always, two doses is better than one. One dose is still really, really helpful. It looks like the more we look, the more, I just get a little more comforted knowing that there's either laboratory data or some human data or some real world data that really demonstrate that these vaccines that we have, the current generation of vaccines, by and large, help against the variants of concern.

Maybe they're not as perfect. Maybe they're not as robust, but they still provide a degree of protection and will be helpful at an individual level and at a population level. Like that's good news. And I'm trying to think of like, what would really send things sideways in Canada and globally? And, you know, one of the big ones is does a variant completely evade or mostly evade immunity that is afforded by, you know, a major vaccine that's rolling out. If that happens, I really don't want to say when that happens. I want to say if that happens, we'd be in trouble. We would, because then you would really need to mass produce updated vaccines and distribute them and allocate them. And that takes time. But so far to date, the vaccines that we have, by and large, appear to have pretty reasonable protection against the variant. So we're pretty good for now. I don't know how long that's going to last, but for now, I think we're doing OK.

And in terms of people getting one dose, like I mean, maybe it's sharing too much information, but like I've only had one dose. I get coughed on on the COVID ward on a regular basis. Like, I'd love my second dose. I would love a second dose, but I don't have it yet. And I don't even know when my appointment's booked for, like June or something like that. So, you know, you do what you're supposed to do. You put on a mask, you distance, you don't go over to other people's homes, you adhere to the public health guidance and we'll get our second dose. I had two questions from viewers in the last couple of weeks that I couldn't answer.

And I actually hadn't seen an answer anywhere around. Here's one of them. And, you know, it's a pretty straightforward question. If you had your first dose, whatever the vaccine was, and you did not have a blood clot issue, which is the overwhelming majority of people do not. But if you had your first dose and you did not have that problem, does that guarantee that you won't have a blood clot problem on a second dose? No, no, it doesn't.

It certainly does not. Blood clots, again, can't ignore them. We've talked about it a couple of times. Like you can never sweep it under the rug. You've got to be completely transparent about the risks and enable people to make an informed decision. Here's a small crystal ball. I could be way off.

There's going to be a study results. There's study results coming out of the UK. I don't know, two, four ish weeks from now, where they're looking at first dose of X, second dose of Y, right? Vaccine, you get one vaccine, then you get a second dose of another vaccine. And they're looking at AstraZeneca and some of the mRNA vaccines. You know, so basically, can

you mix and match? We don't have the results yet, but here's speculation, and I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone would be surprised if the results of that demonstrate that you know, it's totally safe, it's's totally effective you mount a very strong immune response i wouldn't be surprised now again i'm speculating i could be wrong we made a totally different result and obviously we can't change policy until you have the results of that but i would imagine that like um you know i think astrazeneca is like a good vaccine don't get me wrong i've been promoting it

my many of my family members have gotten it as well like i you know it's not talking the talk it's walking the walk as well but like there may be a time where people with the first dose of astrazeneca get a second dose of an mrna vaccine why number one well we don't actually know when we're next we're getting our astrazeneca next because India is not exporting it as they shouldn't be given the crisis there. The United States is sitting on a ton of it, but it's not quite clear if they're going to send more our way or give it to other places. And quite frankly, we have a lot of mRNA vaccines coming in, a lot of Pfizer, and actually Moderna is going to give us another million doses imminently. So there may be mixing and matching because of a, you know, why bother having a risk of a blood clot if you don't? Even though the risk is tiny, you can you can have a different vaccine for the second dose.

And B, you know, there may be delays in AstraZeneca and some people can just get a second dose at a more reasonable time you know that's that's not four months away that's that's sooner if they get a second dose of an mRNA vaccine okay here's the last question on the second dose issue uh assuming you have the same vaccine for your second dose is it the is it the same is it is it uh yeah? Is it identical? It's identical. Identical. Like it is same dose, same product, cut and paste. You're getting identical product, dose one and dose two.

It's nothing fancy schmancy about the second dose. It's just exact same stuff. Okay. Where's your head at? Where are we? Oh, God. um where's your head at where are we oh god uh canada wise come see come stop i mean obviously third wave is tough in many parts of the country but in many places there are arrows pointing in the right direction that things are at least starting to get better two places that i'm a little nervous about um the north there's a big pointing in the right direction that things are at least starting to get better. Two places that I'm a little nervous about, the north, there's a big outbreak in the north.

There's obviously a big outbreak in Nova Scotia and Alberta. Those are the three places I'd be most concerned about currently. It's tough with Nova Scotia. I mean, they've done so well for so long. Good leadership, smart policy, and it's tough to contend with a big outbreak this late in the game. But I have confidence that they'll do a great job. I mean, they acted swiftly.

They have some testing delays due to testing capacity, but I think they'll work through this. They really have a can-do attitude and smart policy. So I think they'll be okay. But again, just obviously watching that closely. Alberta, though, I mean, wow. If you look at the cases per capita in Alberta, it's really, really, those are tough numbers. And it's hard to see how they're going to turn the corner based on the current measures that they have in place. I think they're just going to need to impose, you know, more stringent

public health measures, which stinks because we all know how difficult they are. But I mean, when your case values are so high, you don't really have many other options available at your disposal when you want to drive case numbers down. And then, of course, it's not just having the public health measures in place, but communicating them effectively and ensuring that people are adhering to them, which could be very challenging this late in the game, given that there's so much COVID fatigue. So I don't know. I'm watching that closely. I mean, biased, I'm sitting in Ontario. We're nowhere near where we should be, but at least there are signs that things are starting to improve so that's good but again we gotta we gotta stay the

course looking forward i just hope people don't open too soon and too fast like yeah i really don't i i want to get through this just as much as anyone else but like the health care system is stretched if you open too soon and too fast you're just going to go right back to square one vaccination is really picking up across the country not just in ontario and like this hopefully should be truly should be the last lockdown that we ever see well i hope you're right on that. Listen, as always, you know, we really appreciate your time. The only advice I can give you is to stay off social media for the rest of this day anyway. terrible it really i mean just i know we're done but like i joined twitter two years ago because my colleagues told me you should join this it's good for your you know it's just everyone does it it's it's a professional thing to do it's you you know you're missing out by not being on there

so i joined and you know i would put some stuff out and like i only followed doctors and scientists and stuff like that and it was totally fine and reasonable like you know because i only followed a handful of people but this pandemic i think i mean it's more not yeah people have sort of lost their heads but you can sort of see that's pretty clear it's too bad well there's a lot of that out there. It's too bad because it's such a powerful vehicle for good that it gets tainted so badly by this kind of stuff that happens. It's obviously not just in medicine, but in a lot of different things. that tool has and that people growing up in this era have got at their fingertips these kind of communications possibilities and these kind of research possibilities that have never existed before in the history of the planet and how it can go so bad so fast if you're on the wrong track when you get in there yeah all right listen thank you so much always. We'll talk to you again soon. You do take care out there.

Dr. Isaac Bogoch talking with us. I told you, he's blunt. He's not shy. And there are so many things in that conversation that make you sit up and pay attention, not the least of which is his concerns about, you know, all the misinformation that's on Twitter. And sadly, some of it coming, as far as he's concerned, from some of his own, you know, colleagues in the medical profession and how disheartening that may be.

But lots of stuff on, you know, on second doses and just the general situation of where we are and what may be on the horizon, including the immediate horizon. So as always, we thank Dr. Isaac Bogoch. All right, we're not going to leave it on that note. We're going to leave it on something a little different. My friend Steve Pagan, and those of you in Ontario know who Steve Bacon is. He's the host of TVO's Agenda,

a very good and extremely important current affairs show that's on nightly Monday to Friday on TVO. He had a tweet the other day, over the weekend. 80 years ago, one of the greatest movies of all time debuted, Citizen Kane. And he uses that to plug a show that he did 10 years ago on the 70th anniversary and suggesting how you can watch it on YouTube

to give you a sense of Citizen Kane, the power of Citizen Kane, the importance of Citizen Kane, the power of Citizen Kane, the importance of Citizen Kane, and the fact that it's generally regarded as one of, if not the greatest movie of all time. Now, on that assessment, I beg to differ. Casablanca is my favorite, always will be. I've probably seen it 25

times. And I still get as excited each time I watch it as I did the first time. It's a fantastic movie. Some of the greatest writing that I think there's been in any movie.

However, Citizen Kane does have this reputation. And, you know, deservedly so. It's a great movie. However, Citizen Kane does have this reputation, and, you know, deservedly so. It's a great movie. I'm not suggesting it isn't. But it's always ranked. Do you ever follow the Rotten Tomatoes classification on movies? Basically, you know, if you get all great reviews on your movie,

if all the reviews out there are, this is a great movie, then it's going to be regarded as a great movie and get a very high percentage rating, upwards of 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. If there are bad reviews, that number comes down. So Citizen Kane has always been up there at the top. It's been number one on the Rotten Tomatoes-based guide to movies. Not anymore.

And you know why? They've just discovered a long-forgotten or long-ignored review on Citizen Kane that came out at the time that it was distributed, came out in the Chicago Tribune, and it was lukewarm, to say the best. It was not a good review, and as a result, Rotten Tomatoes has dropped its ranking. As regards to sentences like this, Citizen Kane presents an almost clinical dissection of a complete egotist, the review reads. It goes on to dismiss the film's use of moody sets.

I only know it gives one the creeps and that I keep wishing they'd let a little sunshine in. The review was added to the Rotten, I'm reading here from CNN's online entertainment section. The review was added

to the Rotten Tomatoes website on March 2nd of this year, but has only been noticed in recent days. The website links out to a newspaper clipping of the decades-old story, and its addition means Citizen Kane now no longer has exclusivity positive reviews. Exclusivity Positive Reviews. Still enjoys 116 positive write-ups on the website, but the sole black mark removes the film from the exclusive 100% Club, a collection that features movies including the first two Toy Story installments, the much-loved Paddington sequel,

and Arnold Schwarzenegger's action classic, The Terminator. The same critic is listed as the author of a number of contemporary reviews for the Chicago Tribune between the 1920s and 1960s. They were more complimentary of other classics, including Lawrence of Arabia and Casablanca. Well, there you go, Steve.

I don't know whether that'll change your tweet or not. But Citizen Kane, after all these years, 80 years, finally surfaces a negative review. Hey, it's still a great film. And if you haven't seen it, you should. If you have seen it, you probably should watch it again. But Casablanca, now there's a movie. There's a great movie.

That wraps it up for day one of this week on The Bridge. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back at it again tomorrow that's in 24 hours