The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Could The Hostage Shootings Lead To A Ceasefire in Gaza?

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

The accidental killing of three Israeli hostages by Israeli troops has led to new calls, many from Israelis, for a ceasefire in Gaza.  Would Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu agree, would Hamas agree? Those questions and many more for our regular Monday guest Janice Stein of the Munk School at the University of Toronto. Plus, the latest from Ukraine.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. It's Monday. That means the Middle East and Ukraine. Janice Stein is our guest. That's coming right up. And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. Getting close to the holidays. Well, I guess in many ways we're into the holidays now. And people are starting to head towards home. And home is Stratford. For us, we're here getting ready for the holiday season.

Looking forward to it. But we've got lots to go this week before we get there. And today is the regular Monday. We kind of look outside, right? We're looking outside the country. We're looking at the big issues. And our guest, as usual, is Dr. Janice Stein from the Munk School of Global Affairs, the University of Toronto. And our topics today will include both the Middle East and Ukraine. Before we get there, I just want to give you a sense of a little change in something that's coming up later in the week.

Thursday this week, the Your Turn, I want to turn it a little bit. I'm thinking of some changes that we're going to make in the new year, but this one is just for this week. Thursday, for your turn, and the random ranter. The ranter will continue with his, hopefully he's got the Christmas spirit, the holiday season spirit. When he joins us on Thursday, we'll see what he has to say with his rant. But before we get there, I want to try something a little different.

Remember, oh, it's a month and a half ago already, we had an incredibly successful Your Turn when we talked about Remembrance Day. And I suggested that you write me a letter with your Remembrance Day memory. It may be something about your family, your father, your mother, your grandparents. Something that they passed down about Remembrance Day and why we remember. And that program was, well, it was amazing. It was quite incredible.

And it provoked a lot of letters following the program with people with more memories. So I wanted to try something similar this week. So that's why I'm giving you a warning. I'm giving you a couple of days warning. What I'm looking for this week is a letter from you about, I guess, your best or your most significant

or your most memorable holiday season memory. Christmas memory, Hanukkah memory, you name it. What is it? You tell me. So I'm looking for a letter. Once again, it doesn't have to be long. Remember to leave your name and where you're writing from.

And I'll look for the best of those to include this Thursday. And as a special bonus attraction, I'm thinking of this for the new year as well, but specifically for this Thursday, I will send a signed copy of the new book by Mark Bulgich and myself, How Canada Works. I'll sign it for you, and I'll put it in the mail for you. So that'll go to the best letter, the one I judge to be the most interesting, the best,

the most significant, the whatever letter that addresses that issue, the issue of your best memory of this season. Okay, so there you go. Now you understand the stakes. Send it to themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com and the winner will get a signed copy

of How Canada Works. Number four on the bestseller list has been since it got it. It was released. It was immediately onto the bestseller list, which is, Mark and I are pretty happy about that. All right. Now on to the troubling issues of our time.

It has been quite the year. We've seen Ukraine go through almost its complete second year of hostilities between Russia and Ukraine after Russia invaded Ukraine. Tens of thousands have died. Tens of thousands have died. And since October 7th, we've seen thousands more dying in the Middle East as a result of the Hamas attacks of October 7th and Israel's retaliation in its invasion of Gaza.

So these stories are still high on the list as for another brutal week in both regions. Another brutal weekend in both regions. So as we've been doing since October 7th, Janice Stein has been with us. Brian Stewart, if you were wondering, if you hadn't heard, is off writing his memoirs. So he's going to be gone for a while. And we're wishing him luck on his book. Brian Stewart, if you were wondering, if you hadn't heard, is off writing his memoirs.

So he's going to be gone for a while. And we're wishing him luck on his book. I've talked to him every once in a while, and he's pretty excited about what he's coming up with. And so are his publishers, Simon & Schuster, who are also the publishers for Mark and I in our last few books. Okay, so let's bring Janice in and let's get into this discussion of where we are on these two conflicts as we come up to a year end. Here's my conversation with Janice Stein. Janice, I want to start with this issue of the ceasefire because it seems, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the killing of the Israeli hostages by Israeli forces, accidentally obviously, but nevertheless their deaths seems to have increased the tone and the momentum behind the possibility of a ceasefire. We're not at ceasefire negotiations, but we seem to be at negotiations to begin negotiations on a ceasefire.

Would that be an accurate reflection of what's happening now? You are absolutely right, Peter. Let's talk first of all about the domestic politics. The killing in what you might call friendly fire, which is when IDF soldiers killed these three hostages, even though they were waving white flags. That's just a game changer in terms of the domestic mood inside the country. You know, large, large demonstrations, again, in Tel Aviv, thousands and thousands of people now. And for them, it's clear every additional day of fighting puts the hostages at risk.

So if you, and that pressure is much harder for the government of Israel to ignore. And, you know, a visit by the French foreign minister at the same time calling for what she says is a sustainable ceasefire. If you ask me what a sustainable ceasefire is at this moment, frankly, I couldn't tell you. It sounds really good if you're a diplomat, but I couldn't describe to you what that looks like. But two big visits, one by Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor to the President, and the other by the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Brown,

in which they're going, they're on their way now to Israel to hammer home that they want to see a change in the fighting. So let's talk about a ceasefire as a downscaling of the intensity, the withdrawal of most of Israel's troops behind the border. That's what they're asking for. But with a capacity to launch rates into Gaza with Hamas leaders and the tunnels as targets.

That's not most people's definition of a ceasefire. But that's in fact what is going on between the United States and Israel right now. Just to add Peter my hunch is that Netanyahu is going to go for broke here.

He is going to fight back fiercely against the United States, which he's never done before in his career. In fact, no Israeli prime minister has. And why would he do that this time? Because as soon as it appears that there's a significant lowering of intensity in the fighting, the pressure for a commission of inquiry inside the country will be

irresistible. You know, the incident with the hostages, the killing of those three hostages just fuel those flames. So he's fighting for his political life. He seemed to say on over the weekend on Saturday, I believe he seemed to say that he was open for negotiations. He didn't use the C word.

He didn't talk about a ceasefire. So he was open for negotiations. Now, I guess so, because there were negotiations that he signed off on that were going on in Qatar that released those first 100 hostages. But you don't see anything in that line over the weekend of his that would lead you to think he may be softening somewhere? Well, let me distinguish between two sets of negotiations.

One, a next round of two, which you could call a pause, which is what they called it last time. Not the same as a ceasefire, but negotiations with Hamas indirectly through the Qataris and the Egyptians to get one more big round of hostages out in exchange for a much larger number of Palestinian prisoners, which the Israeli public is prepared for.

He and his government are not, but the Israeli public is prepared to make that deal. He would do that in order to reduce the domestic political pressure. But a ceasefire, a real scaling down of the intensity of fighting, which is what the United States wants, that's a request of a different order. And that would put him at risk. There's no question about it.

Even the first might put him at risk, Peter, because the government is so fragile with those two extremist right-wing parties who might kick up a tremendous fuss about releasing thousands of Palestinian prisoners. That may be enough to break apart his government, but they too, let's just understand, this is such a dysfunctional,

that's the only word for it dysfunctional and fragile government that as much as uh some of those small extremist parties would like to break away if they bring down the coalition They have no political future either. You're clearly making it sound like as far as Netanyahu is concerned, it's all about him. It's all about him. It's his agenda, his personal agenda that is directing his attitude towards this war. Yes, that is what I think. And there's nobody to say you can't do this. Well, there is. So let's talk about this five person war cabinet, right?

Because the larger cabinet, they're locked into the same logic that if they break apart the government, they all lose because there's no path back for any of them to power. So you look at this emergency war cabinet, three of them are Netanyahu people, in a sense. Ron Dermer, who's a former ambassador to the United States, was appointed by Netanyahu. Netanyahu himself and the Minister of Defense, no friend of Netanyahu. They were fighting fiercely a few months ago,

but nevertheless, a member of that government. And then you have two others. Benny Gantz, who leads the largest opposition party and is way ahead in the polls now. All the polls converge here. Nobody's arguing. Were an election to be called, and if a government falls in Israel, it takes about six months

until the next election. And the current prime minister stays as a caretaker. But we're an election to be called. Gantz's party would get more than twice as many seats as Netanyahu's. That's a huge lead.

He has an incentive to break this up before too long. And a former chief of staff whose son and nephew have been killed in war. If either one of those walk away from the table, that would break up the war cabinet. That would probably be enough to ignite this. But they joined that cabinet because they said there was a security emergency war

and they didn't want to play politics during the war. How long does that last, Peter? Right. Especially if Netanyahu defies the United States there has never been a government in Israel that didn't understand that was the one thing they could

not do they could push they could obstruct they could drag their feet they could delay but they couldn't defy and they're defying now he will I think he will. Because his back is to the wall. Let me ask you, you know who I'm talking about when I talk about William Cohen.

In fact, you've probably met him. He was the secretary of defense for Bill Clinton. Right. He was a republican so he was an interesting choice by clinton to to uh try to show a non-partisan attitude towards the defense portfolio and bringing in a republican i was watching him the other day he's still pretty active and uh in terms of giving his opinions and his opinion and i i wonder whether you think this in any way would work i mean it sounded pretty straightforward and simple um but nobody's grabbing onto it he's saying what netanyahu should

do what israel should do uh is say we're prepared to have a ceasefire right now, today, if you release the hostages. No other conditions, that's it. Ceasefire, we get the hostages back. That would, for Israel, would tend to bring some of that public opinion which has been running against Israel from the outside world back into the Israeli tent, perhaps, and it would end the fighting and end the killing. Why doesn't that happen?

You know, that is, frankly, such a smart suggestion that has been made by several people. William Cohn is one, but there are people inside Israel that have made that suggestion. In my sense, it's smart for all the reasons um that william cohen suggests but for one other as well not fully clear that hamas would accept that offer right now um then it would be their problem then but then the fighting becomes their problem and it makes it clear to palestinians in gaza that the continuation of the fighting is

a result of hamas's refusal to come to the table and accept that now just so we understand peter that would leave the idf in place ceasefire can be of two kinds you have a ceasefire where the soldiers stay in place they just withdraw to more defensive You have a ceasefire where the soldiers stay in place. They just withdraw to more defensive positions. Or a ceasefire where you withdraw to the lines before the war started. You notice when William Cohen was talking, he didn't specify which kind of ceasefire it would be. But they're very different. But the reason I say that because the Israelis have been fishing now for

10 days to get these hostage negotiations started. They've tried through the Qataris and maybe we should talk about Hamas a little later about why that might be. And they were not met with success. There's less interest

now, it appears, by Hamas than there was for that first round. Hamas doesn't speak with one voice, right? No, no. Well, you know, that's why I'm saying there's politics all over right now, Peter. When we talk about war, we think there's a neat separation between the military strategists and the politicians it's never like that and you can literally see it the domestic politics inside israel inside the united states and where the political states are just huge for the Biden administration as we move into primary season. And of course, inside Hamas too. So there's two big wings of Hamas.

There's the political wing where the leadership is largely, although not exclusively in Qatar. And here's an interesting story that came out of Gaza and other Arab sources and has not really gotten a lot of play. So I'm tracking the story, but I don't have any good evidence. Let me put it that way. That some of the most significant members of the political leadership left Qatar this week because the Qataris said to them, we can no longer guarantee your safety.

Now, we could make a lot of that story, and it could be that the Qataris are increasingly worried about their exposure. If they have senior Hamas leaders, it could be that Qataris are picking up threats to their safety. It could be any of those. And the rumors in the Arab press were that they had gone to Algiers. Now, if that's true, it's going to be a lot harder to communicate um because it's going to be more difficult the communication between the political wing wherever they are now and the military wing on the ground in the tunnels in gaza will just be harder for people working on a ceasefire

so you know we're having a kind of one-sided conversation right now right you see what i'm saying let me let me play out your um rumor although i guess it's a little more than probably a little more than a rumor but if that's in fact what the hamas leadership who had been in cutter had been told, I mean, the odds on is that it's Mossad is tracking them, right? I mean, they have a history of worldwide reach, and they don't care what anybody says. Once they've determined that they're going to take people out,

they take them out. We've seen enough evidence of that over the years. What would happen if that happened well you know again so who's warned against that who's warned against that in the most explicit terms not the united states on the contrary jake sullivan i really sat up in my chair when I heard him say this. Jake Sullivan said, Yaya Sinwar has a target on his back. And who is that again? Jake Sullivan, the president. No, no, no.

Who has the target? Oh, sorry. Yaya Sinwar, who is the most important leader of the military faction inside Gaza. He crosses the line almost between the political and the military. There's a lot known about him. And why is he

so well known? Because he spent 18 years in jail, in prison in israel and there's um detailed records of his interrogations while he was in israel language very again interesting set of conversations released this week by a former interrogator who talked about how you interrogate prisoners and how you need to make you build trust

with them otherwise they don't tell you anything and it's only when you build the relationship and he built that uh with yaya sinwar when he was i'm in an israeli prison and the story he tells of how Senoir described to him how he forced somebody in Hamas that he considered disloyal to kill his own brother

and bury his brother before Senoir himself killed the remaining brother. The analysis really was this was somebody who, I'm not going to use any psychological terms here because I have no qualifications to make that kind of diagnosis, but he said this was the most chilling conversation he'd ever had.

There was no remorse. There was just a cold-blooded description of what he did and an unrelenting commitment to come back whenever he was released and attack. And that's the story, I think, that most intelligence agencies who have had any contact with Sanwar will tell about him. He's by far the most important player. He's the one, by the way, that came the first day, October the 8th,

to the tunnels inside Gaza and met with some of the hostages. And one in particular who had long been active in the peace movement, she was 85 years old. She clearly was fearless. And she confronted him and asked him,

how could you do this to the members of the peace activist community that lived on the border? Because that's who those people were. And she said he never flinched.

So he's the one who's making the critical decision and he's the one who said this will happen again this is a rehearsal this will happen again so I think it's fair to say that there's no political solution that would satisfy a sin war.

You're not finding a way out for us here, Janice. No. You've got both sides. Both sides refusing to make any attempt to end this. Yeah. And I certainly don't, you know, they're very different. And I don't draw equivalencies. And if I did, I would get way more mail know, they're very different, and I don't draw equivalencies, and if I did, I would get way more mail than I did after last week, Peter, for sure. But there's no question that Sinwar and the two or three other most important

military leaders that are still in Gaza do not have any, whatever they agree to, it will be temporary. They are not about to announce violence um uh in order to get to a long-term political solution that's not true of the political leadership there are many in the political leadership And who even talk about rejoining the, the broader PLO structure, which made a commitment to recognize Israel within the 1967 borders. There are certainly members of Hamas political leaders who talk that way.

And one just made that kind of statement even a week ago. But they are really divided. Netanyahu, on the other hand, also has, I think, no interest in stopping the fighting. None. Because, and I you were absolutely right, because I believe he is

right now wholly fixated on his own political survival and what is good for him as distinct He is right now wholly fixated on his own political survival and what is good for him as distinct from what is in the national interest. Okay, last point on the Mideast story. For the last two weeks, you felt that the pressure from the United States was going to be enough within a few weeks to bring this to some at least temporary conclusion.

So the timelines? Yeah. I got the timelines right if you listen to the Americans who are there right now, right? They're working on the same timelines. They're a little more, you know, they'll say January, early January. And I think Netanyahu will drag his feet, will drag this out as long as he can. Can that add an extra few weeks to this?

Ultimately, I think the presence of those two others, two former chiefs of the defense staff, are going to matter. He cannot afford to lose them from the war cabinet. So his attempt may elongate this another couple of weeks, Peter, but I still do not believe it is possible for Israel to stand up against this kind of pressure. And let's have the third bit of politics here. Before the primaries, Biden is pretty clear he and his team want this stopped

before American voters start to vote in the primaries. Well, you better hurry up then. Better hurry up. That's right. All right. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we want to check in on Ukraine. We're going to talk about politics.

Another bizarre week for Zelensky. So let's take that break and we'll come back with that in just a moment. And welcome back. Peter Mansbridge here with Janice Stein from the University of Toronto, the Munk School. Political analyst, Middle East analyst, conflict management expert. She's got it all.

You're listening on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. All right, I want to shift to Ukraine. And as I said a moment ago, it was another kind of bizarre week. You have Zelensky making his latest sort of cap-in-hand visit to Washington, and where in the past he was welcomed and treated like a hero, this time it was very different.

It just didn't feel in any way welcoming, even with Biden, who was, you know, he and his people are obviously pushing for is there a way to kind of bring this thing to some form of a resolution in some kind of discussions between Ukraine and Russia. And then the whole situation in Congress where he needs a guarantee in terms of future resources and money. He didn't get it. He got some money, but he didn't get what he was looking for. And so back he went to Ukraine. And the war continues.

And it's very much a drone war, at least it has been for the last couple of days from both sides. But when you looked at that situation last week in Washington, what did you see? You know, I was struck, I think, as you were, Peter. It was sad, actually. Zelensky looked exhausted. And going through the motions, he's an astute politician. He understood very well he had not broken the deadlock

with the Republican House. Frankly, Biden looked exhausted in the press conference, and that's worrying to see as well. His voice was tired. He just looked exhausted. And there was a sense that there was an uphill struggle. His commitment is there, but this was an uphill struggle. Anyway, Zelensky went home without a great deal to show for it um and the war um

is is is a i think it's a killing stalemate let me put it to you that way it's much worse than world war one if we could just talk about the war for one minute, Peter, because in World War I, you've seen, I've seen all the World War I movies where you could dig a deep trench and most of the soldiers were in the trenches on either side. And only when you came out of the trenches did you get killed. That's not what is happening on the front lines between Russia and Ukraine. These are killing grounds. The number of military deaths, you know, in Kherson, which is just over the major river, the Dnipro River, where Ukrainian forces, and this is the hardest thing for military to do, an amphibious crossing where you're out in the open and you're

sitting ducks for the other side they have crossed and they've landed several small clusters of ukrainian forces virtually everybody killed they are replaced virtually everybody killed they are replaced and why are they doing? They're doing this really to divert Russian forces from their attacks further up the line. They're also pulling in Russian forces and large numbers of Russian forces are getting killed. in which you have this high level of military deaths, is ultimately not a war that Ukraine can win, because it just has fewer men to put on the front line. And already we're getting reports out of Ukraine that young men are being picked up off the street

and forcibly recruited into the Ukrainian army. So to say this is approaching a desperate situation for Ukraine, it is. There's no question. Two possible rays of hope here. One, the Pentagon has enough in the queue to keep on supplying for several months. The money was committed earlier earlier but there's enough in the queue at lower rates but nevertheless they will be able to and secondly and to round out the political circle here there are heated talks going on as we speak in washington about an omnibus bill, aid to Ukraine, which is Biden's priority,

aid to Israel in exchange for much bigger compromises on securing the U.S. border and on immigration and on conditions for asylum than the Biden people wanted to make. He will antagonize the, if he makes these concessions, he will antagonize the if he makes these concessions he will antagonize the progressive wing of his own party and there are big costs as you go into an election year you know it is really stunning peter to see the extent we're not used to this in canada you you tell me when we last fought an election over foreign policy

free trade probably right uh is the last time we might have um but in the united states right now foreign policy issues are penetrating right into the heart of the political process they're politicized biden goes one way he fractures his own party right before primary start and if he goes another way he can't meet his obligations and fulfill his commitment to ukraine very tough you got politics playing a role in both these conflicts now right like more than? Yeah, domestic politics. Yeah, domestic politics. Let me ask you this. Zelensky was pushed on, I think it was in the news conference he had,

he was pushed on the issue of whether he's prepared to sit down and talk about territory and what he could agree to allow the Russians to hold on to that they'd taken in the past couple of years. And he was adamant, and it wasn't just kind of a flip answer. It was like heavy duty. I'm not giving up an inch is basically what he said. Now, I suppose he has to say that, but he sounded like a man convinced of his words that he wouldn't ever sit down and talk that way.

He doesn't have to say that. He really does believe it, except for Crimea. He is flexible on Crimea. There's no question yet. He just can't say so in public, but he's flexible for Crimea. He is flexible on Crimea. There's no question yet. He just can't say so in public, but he's flexible on Crimea. But he too has an enraged public to deal with. There is a lot of talks about an election in Ukraine in 2024. There's no question his political support would take a huge hit were there to be a discussion

right now before an election about making concessions of part of eastern ukraine to the russians and that's what he's protecting against it's also interesting you know we heard putin at that famous press conference this was the most confident that putin's been and that's partly why he agreed to take questions from journalists coming over the phone in a really structured way that are vetted before let's not kid ourselves but nevertheless he did and just as much as zero traction with zelensky right now less than zero traction with who said no no no no we we're going to take more territory in eastern ukraine and that will become part of russia permanently and it's never going back and actually the the rest of ukraine what remains the west of ukraine probably will be integrated into another state in other words he was saying he does not see an independent sovereign ukraine

in the future. He might have felt differently last year when his forces were pushed back. So here's the irony, and this is one of the things we know. When you're losing, you're more open to ceasefire and concessions. When you're winning, you forget about it very quickly, and your rhetoric changes very fast.

So how do you get both parties to the same conference to feel they're losing at the same time? That's when these wars end. You'd think 300,000 casualties on the Russian side would tell you, you know, I may not be losing, but I'm getting hammered here, and the people are going to rise up. But, you know, Russia's history and Soviet Union's history accepts incredible losses. It's quite something.

That's right. Okay. This is all too depressing for a time where we're all going to try and take some holidays here. Give us something good to think of. You whispered to me that you had a story. Tell me a story. I did. I did.

I wanted to tell you about this story that I just saw a couple of days ago, which went viral in Iran about a man, I'm guessing in his 60s who was standing out in front of his stall in the marketplace and started to dance and a group of young men around them and somebody photographed it and it was a folk song with a great beat and it just went viral um all over Iran and the song has a chorus oh oh oh and you know literally all over Iran thousands and thousands

of people dancing as the latest form of protest, the Iranian secret police come and arrest this man and delete the video and accuse him of treason. There was such an outcry. There was such an outcry. And the number of dancing videos, men with men, men and women, reached such a point that the Iranian police backed them. He was released.

His website went up with his great dance that he was doing. And there you are. The human spirit. The human spirit. The human spirit. That's a nice story. And let's try to think of that one for the next little while after all the other things we've talked about of late and today. You made me smile.

Peter, it's called O-O-O. If you look O-O-O in Iran, you can find the dance. Too much fun. Okay. We'll find it. And so will our listeners, I know. Thanks, Janice. Janice will be back in two weeks' time,

and we'll bring everybody up to date on where we are in these stories. But in the meantime, it's oh, let's dance, right? That's right. And a Merry Christmas to you, Peter, and to all your listeners. Have a great holiday. Bye-bye now. Dr. Janice Stein with us. She has been every week since October 7th.

And if you're looking for that video, it's not hard to find. You can go to your search engine, you know, if you use Google, whatever. Just type in Iranian man dancing and you'll get it. His name is Sadegh Banna Motajaded. He's 70 years old. And it's a small market in Rashtaran. And as the New York Times says, it's grown into a symbol of disobedience and a demand for freedom and happiness.

Isn't that something we all want? Happiness? That's why he's dancing. It is a remarkable video and a remarkable moment, and I'm glad Janice told us about it if you hadn't heard about it before, but if you want to look at it and if you want to maybe feel a little good in difficult times, you'll find it in that video.

All right. A quick reminder, contest for Thursday. Get your holiday thought in, something that's made a difference to you in your life. Could be a memory from childhood. Could be a memory that's been passed down by parents, grandparents. Whatever it may be, I'd love to hear about it. Name and location, please.

They're important. So I'll go through those and I'll pick out what I consider to be, well, what moves me in some fashion. And then we'll pick the overall winner. And the overall winner will get a signed copy of How Canada Works, a new book by Mark Bulgich and myself that's doing quite well out there. You can always go to your local bookstore, or you can order online to pick up your copy. And if you do get it, and if you already have it,

and if you're already reading it, I hope you're enjoying it. It gives a real reflection of some of the jobs in Canada that we all benefit from those who do those jobs. So it's their stories. It's not my story. It's not Mark's story. It's their stories. And it's in their voice. So I hope you get a chance to grab a copy. It had a fantastic review by Jamie Portman,

who writes for the Post Media chain. And it was in most of the Post Media newspapers right across the country over the weekend. So if you're looking to get some understanding of the book, just look that up, Jamie Portman and his book review in Post Media. You can search it online. But it was very kind of Jamie to write those nice things about the book. Okay, that's going to wrap it up.

But tomorrow, I have this pile of NBIT possibilities and we're going to give those because some of those are nice well they help get you ready for the holidays on a number of versions and one of the ones you know one of the perils of the big family dinners

around the holidays you end up getting in arguments. I've got a great end bit on how to ensure that you don't get in arguments at family dinners over the holidays. So we'll look at that and a bunch of others. So it'll be an end bit special tomorrow. Wednesday, it's Bruce's last shot at Smoke Maris and Truth, as Bruce has got so many other obligations work-wise that he's had to beg off the Wednesday episode, and he will be

with us, obviously, on Friday still with Good Talk with Chantel. There is a restructuring of what will be a four-day week for the bridge coming up in the new year. And, you know, the old man's getting old here. Got to reduce from five days to four-day weeks, but still looking forward to every moment with the opportunity to talk to you about various things. So that's it for this day. Thursday, the special I told you about. Friday, the annual year-end Good Talk with Chantel and Bruce. Then we're taking next week off. There'll be a Best Of series, encore editions of The Bridge through the main holiday week.

Then we're back at it as of January 2nd. That's a Tuesday, the day after new year's day i'm peter mansbridge thanks so much for listening have a great evening talk to you again in uh 24 hours Thank you.