The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Europe's Move Towards Military Recruitment -- Will Canada Be Far Behind?

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Whether it's voluntary recruitment or a form of military draft, it's happening in different parts of Europe as fear of war with Russia mounts.  Ukraine was the tipping point here but the moves are taking place, and the question is will the same concerns become apparent in Canada. Dr Janice Stein from the Munk School at the University of Toronto joins us for her regular Monday session, "Our Changing World".   Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You're just moments away from the latest episode of the bridge. Many European countries are moving towards a form of voluntary military recruitment. What does that actually mean? And could Canada be far behind? Dr. Janice Stein, coming right up. there, welcome to Monday. Welcome to December. Here we are already. December, last month of the year. Whoa, and what a year it's been. Lots of activity today. There's still count numbers at Zootopia, too.

Have you seen those numbers, the box office numbers, for the first weekend of your favorite animated film with, of course, Peter Moosebridge in it, 10 seconds or so. Over $500 million in the first weekend? That's a worldwide figure. Anyway, enough of that.

Let's get to more important topics. We've got another great session with Dr. Janice Stein coming up in a few moments' time. But as we always do on Mondays, point you forward to the week and give you the question of the week. You know, I think you've had a number of days, if not weeks, to think about this one.

So I'd love your thoughts on it. Here is the question. The question is, would you want Canada to buy its next fighter jets from Sweden? That's the Gripen by Saab. Even if the planes are not as good in some ways as the American F-35. Now, you know the deal. We've already bought 16 F-35s, and we have plans to buy upwards of 88 F-35s,

but that extra number is still not finalized. And we could switch. And the government, the new government, the Kearney government, has asked for a further study on what other options there are other than the F-35. and there seems to be a lot of interest in the Swedish plane, the Gripon, at least a lot of interest by some, not necessarily the military. And they claim, and they leaked last week, somebody leaked,

the test results between the F-35 and the Grypen from a couple of years ago showed an overwhelming advantage to the F-35. So that's why I've worded the question the way it is Because there are all kinds of different parts of these deals Would you want Canada to buy its next fighter jets from Sweden Even if the planes are not as good as in some ways the American F-35 So there's your question 75 words or fewer

Is the border on keep in mind New York Times ran one of these things last week And said you'll have to do it in six words so just think how wonderful the bridge is being they're giving you 75 words or fewer okay got to have your answers in by 6 p.m. eastern time this Wednesday include the name and your name and the location you're writing from and please do that please do that last week again there were quite a few of you who were either over the limit that's a non-starter and terms of words, or forgot they to put their full name or the location they're running from.

Okay, so please keep those things in mind. That's the question for the week and the conditions placed upon it. Also on Thursday, of course, your answers plus the random ranger. Tomorrow it's Raj and Rousseau who come back to the bridge for their every session. second week on Tuesday's appearance. I'm looking forward to hearing from them. Lots to talk about, as always, with them. Wednesday, it will be an encore this week.

And Friday, of course, good talk with Chantelle and Bruce. Okay, enough on the preps. Let's get to the topic of the day, because I think it's pretty interesting, and I think it's going to have you thinking and talking as well. So let's bring her in the director of the Monk School from the University of Toronto, Dr. Janice Stein. Okay, Janice, one of the things I've found interesting this week, and I know you want to talk about it as well, is this issue that seems to be happening mainly in Europe, but not exclusively in Europe,

but mainly in Europe, where enlistment into the armed forces is an issue, where governments are looking at whether it's voluntary recruitment or whether it's, a form of draft. It seems to be happening. So I want to know not just where it's happening, but what it's telling us about the state of the world right now. You know, Peter, it's really astonishing

because in most of Europe, the draft was ended in the mid-1990s. The Soviet Union dissolved in 1991. That was the great peace dividend. And to find ourselves 30 years later, with most of Europe and most interestingly, and I think unexpectedly France, moving now to what the president described as voluntary military services

for young people in France. A lot of support inside France for doing it, which is, again, not what you would expect. But with the goal, and he was explicit, about it when he announced it, that it would expand to become compulsory if the security situation deteriorate. You know, who else is doing this?

So he's the first of the West Europeans, really. The Germans, you know, that's astonishing, too, in Europe, because all of post-bore politics, really. you know the best description of NATO was it was to keep the Germans down

the Russians deterred and the Americans engaged that was the purpose of NATO it was just as much about Germany not reviving its militarism as it was about deterring

Soviet aggression well the Chancellor talked about again a you know voluntary military service for germans Poland is now moved to a draft and I think in Denmark peaceable Denmark they are now drafting women Peter

drafting drafting drafting drafting women all three Baltics Estonia, Lithuia and Latvania a version of all three of them have a version of a draft Finland has long

had a draft Sweden is now moving to a draft so if you want to color the map of Europe you could say that you know all the countries that

live next door to Russia are engaged in some form of draft and just move a little west and the French have decided to stand up volunteer reserves. And you know, in Canada, we're having the early beginnings of a discussion like that, too. What do you mean? Well, there was an announcement a couple of weeks ago, I think, was frankly,

it bungled in which the Minister of Defense and the Deputy Minister, Minutes, talked about voluntary reserve training, growing the reserves in Canada. And a little bit of a miscar, was the focus was the public service. That was the original release. And, you know, it was people will learn to drive a truck, launch a drone, and fire a gun. The public service is not the obvious place to start, frankly. in this country everywhere else it's 18 to 25 year old it's really young people I think our government will move very very quickly to some notion of voluntary reserve service reserve military service

for 18 year olds and up okay I want to try and understand the terminology here because as the way it exists right now you're encouraged to join the services if you feel you know that's what i'd like to do with my life after after school or after university that's where i'd want to go um it's more of a kind of appeal to patriotism in a way there's that like we have now or there's voluntary recruitment like it sounds like the same thing it's not here's a difference like you just described this is join the military if you think this will be a good career for you. What this discussion is now is join, except for those who have a draft, join voluntarily, join the reserves, get trained, learn the basics. So if we need you, we can rapidly ramp up the

size of the military. That's the Canadian. That's where I have no doubt we will go in Canada. And the drafts that we've talked about, which is a third thing, the drafts that we've talked about all across Europe,

18 months of service, not career. This is not where you want to go when you think you will have, you will spend the next 25 years of your life as we currently do in Canada. But join, forcibly, you don't have a choice if you're 18, you join for 12 months, 18 months.

And that's to build out what the French acknowledge is a really flabby army. And if it's not compulsory, they are not going to get the recruits to grow an army. You know, it's astounding, Peter, the why of this. Because the first country, really, to learn. But the political price of a draft was the United States during the Vietnam War. The streets in the United States were on fire by people who did not want to go to Vietnam, frankly, but would have been drafted. And that's what, you know, pushed young people out into the streets, brought down a president. A huge political, Lyndon B. Johnson had a huge political.

impact. And the lesson for democracies was get rid of the draft. Smaller armies, well trained, but get rid of the draft unless you faced an existential crisis because forcing young people to go to war or to go and fight for anything but will jeopardize your government. Look how far we've come. Yeah. Well, it's most Canadians, any Canadian who studied our own history knows that the word draft does not play well in our history books, you know, and for a number of reasons. So it does make me wonder how far you could push Canadians into thinking some form, I mean, call it whatever you want, but some form of, of where they're trying to entice you beyond just your patriotism to join the military.

Yeah. You know, regional differences in this country about military service are huge, just huge. And the epicenter of resistance, Quebec, that wonderful race that the then prime minister used, conscription if necessary, but not necessarily conscription. I mean, that's genius, right, in terms of what he said. So I think that's why our government, short of unbelievable urgency, will focus on voluntary military service, which will be, and you know the interesting question, it's not clear yet,

will it be paid? Will young people be paid? In France, they will. They're going to be paid about 900 euros. What's at about $1,400 a month? Then they're going to go in. A little more than that now. Maybe more. And they're going to go in for 10 months.

But you think in a way about the crisis of employment that we're facing in this country. You know, entry-level jobs, we, that's kind of very. in the larger employment data, but the toughest, the group that's facing toughest time getting a job now are people just coming into the labor market with degrees, without degrees.

It doesn't really matter. Entry-level jobs are difficult to get. And here's the opportunity for national service. You join. You'll learn the basics. You're paid. And then you're in a reserve force, which I think are government.

is to term, we have a small reserve for Speeder. I think they're determined to double a triple N with a whole set of advanced skills that they're going to need. And it would avoid those political challenges that we faced in the past in Canada because it would be on a volunteer basis. So you're less likely to get the blowback. Right.

If it's all volunteer. Let me, Let me just take a slight detour in this conversation because I know you agree with me on this, but I think it's worth reminding listeners of this. When we talk about the resistance, the draft resistance that came from a lot from Quebec in past conflicts, that is not to say that Quebecers didn't serve because they did serve.

They did serve by the thousands. And there's heroic figures. in Canada's military history, who came from Quebec in, you know, both the Great Wars, one and two, and elsewhere in Korea, and, you know, same in Afghanistan. So I just want to make that point, because I know it comes up every once in a while

and it comes up in ways that just aren't accurate. Good thing you did, because, I mean, they're outstanding, you know, generals who are Quebecers. have left an indelible impact, Peter. And again, also important to remember, what was, why did Quebecers resist? It was not an opposition to serving in the military.

It was an opposition to fighting for the empire, which was British. They did not want to fight for the king because of their own history, their own history. with Britain. So it was political resistance and it's this thing from opposition to serving in the military.

I don't think, you know, that piece is really going away. Nobody is going to fight for the empire anymore in Canadian history. So it would be very, you know, it's unpredictable what the Quebec response would be, frankly. You know, when you read the stories

about the fall of 1914, when Canadians were rushing to be recruited, rushing to enlist. And, you know, I remember the city, the great Shadow Lurier Hotel in Ottawa. They had a recruitment center there day one after war was declared and people were lined up. And who were these people? They were mostly expats from Britain.

They were there for King Country. And that was kind of similar across the country in the fall of 1914. Because they all thought this will be over by Christmas, do our thing and, you know, being responsible for the place we came from. So, you know, there was a lot of that at the beginning. Okay, let me get back on track here. Because on the opposite side of the fence, so to speak, in Europe are the Russians.

And the Russians, after they decided to invade Ukraine, I thought it was going to be a walk in the park. turned out not to be, and they were taking huge casualties, they had to put in forms of a draft to get people on side, not on side, get them into the field, into the battlefield. Well, now they claim they don't need to do that anymore, that they have voluntary recruitment, and it's working just fine for them. Yeah. Do you believe that?

No. I really don't. And, you know, I'll tell you what the evidence is, that it's not working for that. They are paying huge signing bonuses for people to sign up. And where are they getting people? They're getting people, you know, from the far east in Russia. And there's documented evidence, Peter, that. in the smaller communities, the older people get together and they finger one young person

to sign up. And there's an understanding that the community as a whole is going to share the death benefits that the Russian army pays. So it's almost a collective enterprise. And so we know this from Russian bloggers who are complaining about how long these death benefits are taking to get to the communities. That doesn't sound like, you know, soldiers who are signing up for patriotic reasons. Those benefits are really large in terms of what the communities would normally make. So they're paying through the nose to get people to sign up. That's what we know. A week ago, we discussed on this program and others were discussing around the world,

that we could be close to an end on the Russia-Ukraine conflict. And that the peace deal seemed kind of a bizarre one, but that being put together by the Americans might stand some form of a chance. Well, it didn't take long for that to seemingly unravel. Where are we now on this? I mean, there's all kinds of sort of backroom talk going on and negotiations going on. But are we really anywhere near something here? You know, I'm dubious.

You know, Ukrainian negotiators met yesterday in Florida with President Trump's team minus André Yermak, who has led this negotiating team. He would literally be the twin brother to Zelensky is the only way to describe. And with him from the beginning, you know, I don't know if our listeners have ever seen pictures, but a tall, really beefy, big guy. And Zelensky's not.

He's short. So when you look at these two, they're in almost every. picture together well he is the big casualty from this corruption scandal that is going on simultaneously

inside Ukraine he resigned just before the weekend started well however you look at that it's a weekend Zeletsky just was the enforcer

he ran everything from Zelensky's office. He was the one who muffled the opposition when he felt they needed to be muffled. Every appointment went through him. He truly was the enforcer. And, you know, domestic politics matter. Zelensky will have a much harder time in the near future, keeping the opposition in check. and the voices within his own party. So I think Yermak's resignation more than

anything else telegraphs to the Russians keep going. There is that. There will be problems for Zelensky inside Russia. That's probably a big game changer. The other thing is

Yermak and others succeeded in pushing back many of the things of Vladimir Putin has said are crucial. They took voting NATO off the table, right? They took security guarantees.

Those are really being beefed up in all these negotiations. So what has come out of these prolonged negotiations with the Europeans having a very big and influential voice,

something that is much less acceptable to Vladimir Putin. Now, I think this will go on for another few weeks, but given the weakening of Zelensky and a much tougher deal, which, by the way, Trump has not resisted. That team of Witkov, Krishna, and Rubio, the three of them have taken on board

a lot of the European criticism. I'd be very surprised, Peter. if Vladimir Putin, we're going to sign on to this now. So we're looking at, we're looking at some time yet. Yeah. Yeah. If at all.

Yeah. You know, you see some of the images, you know, the Globe ran a great photo essay. Yes. Online one of their photographers who went there on the Russian side. And they're just, it's like a different century. Yeah. It's slaughter.

On both sides, it's, it's slaughtered. It is, it truly is the 21st century version of World War I. You know, it's done with drones, you know, infantry are on bicycles, but the end result is the same. People are fighting for inches, Peters. The Confederacies are huge, and it's really difficult. Here, Donald Trump is fine. fundamentally not wrong.

It's difficult to see the strategic value on either side, frankly, of continuing to fight. In the trenches. In the trenches. There's a shot in that glow piece of the guys in the trenches. And it's, you know, the trenches look like they did 120 years ago. The guys look like they do in the movie. now because they're all armed in you know with the fanciest and most modern of weapons but

they're in a trench that's right and you know what are they hiding from you know in one one it was artillery fire right that was coming in or now they're hiding from drones that circle on top of these trenches and detect the slightest movement and they're smart drones and they can find you and that's why we're seeing these astronomical casualties. You know, I actually was really pleased the Globe did that series because it's, we forget how horrific fighting and war is really, ultimately it's always a human story. And it's the young kids, 18, 19, you know, not in the Ukraine. training in K so much because their draft age is higher.

But it's relentless and it's for inches. That's what they're funny. I mean, they're stalemated, these two armies fundamentally. I was talking to David Wamsley, the editor-in-chief of the globe, who you know as well. And he, you know, about this photo essay. And he's always being big on this, the power of an image. I mean, he's an old television guy as well as a print guy.

So he understands the power of an image, but especially so at times in a still image can carry so much weight in impact for people. And we can all point to different ones over the years that have had that. You know, just on this, Peter, and this is a digression of the moment, but you may remember last year there was a film made by Russian who went to document Russian soldiers.

Right. A huge controversy. Oh, it's propaganda. And Kiff ultimately buckled and didn't show the film. And I remember thinking, what a mistake, right? What a mistake. And I think it's, again, you know, David commissioned this piece from the Russian side. Yeah.

But that's, but it had a huge impact if you. As I look at those still photographs, because it's almost irrelevant, which side at this point you're looking at it from? They're in those bloody trenches. Yeah. Okay, we're going to take a break. Come back with something totally different. We'll do that right after this.

And welcome back. You're listening to The Bridge, the Monday episode. First day of December here now. Boy, what a quick year this has been. Mondays mean Dr. Janice Stein from the University of Toronto, the Monk School. She's with us, and we're talking all things that are in our changing world these days. You're listening on Sirius XM Channel 167. Canada Talks are on your favorite podcast platform.

You know what we haven't talked about for a little while? Taiwan. Yeah. And we should be talking about it because it's making news again. Tell me about it. Well, there's a new woman, Prime Minister, I have to say that's a big story

in Japan, Prime Minister, Kaki, and in a discussion with the Japanese Parliament that she was asked what she would do if China were to blockade or invade Taiwan. And I think she gave an unscripted answer. But wow, is this going to define her prime minister? She said that would constitute a survival threatening situation. Well, that is cold in Japan for Japan would come to the defense of thought.

Taiwan. There's no ambiguity about that. And a firestorm erupted. What's interesting here on the Japanese side? She's not backed down. This is now, we're three weeks into this. She has not backed down. You know, you remember President Biden? He'd say something like, yes, we would come to spend. And then, you know, the people around them would be out in five seconds. Say, oh, the president, yeah. He misspoke. That hasn't happened in Japan at all. And again, we look at the public opinion polls

because I think I was interested in this last few weeks on all these 18 and 19-year-olds that we've been talking about, overwhelming support from young people in Japan. Those people who would actually be called to fight if a crisis over Taiwan felt overwhelming. I mean, astonishing in the 60s. Whereas older people, much less support for or they would like to see her pull it back. You know, this in a sense, people have no memories of terrible wars.

Well, memories only last so long, right? Memories last long for people old enough to remember what it was like, but there is a drift after that, especially those who don't follow their history, world history. That's right. But what is Japan's, you know, like, obviously Japan was defeated in the Second World War and then went through a long period of reconstruction

and trying to reorganize itself and staying out of anything international? Since that point, what's Japan's history being on Taiwan? What have they said, if anything? You know, so they have, in their constitution, there was a commitment to not using military force. It's that strong that came out, first of all, being bombed with nuclear bombs, but then the prior imperial history in Japan too. And that was sacred in Japan among young people. That's why this is so surprising.

So the Japanese are the most alarms about China of everybody in Asia. They are watching the military build up. You know, China has the largest blue water navy in the world, which is astonishing, frankly, for every ship. the United States builds, they built forth. So it's not only the largest already, they are the pacing power, navelina now, in the world.

There is long tension between China and Japan that goes back, at least as far as pre-World War II. What's called the rape of Nanjing, which is Japanese forces in China. those memories don't fade in China there you know the government makes sure to tell that story over and over and over and over and China

is regarded as an imminent military threat and you know Japan presses the United States over and over again take this seriously take this seriously this has been going on for 15 years so this was almost it was an unscripted response but it reflects frankly what Japanese really think Chinese reacted ferociously

the statement so what do they do they sent their ships into disputed waters they use this kind of journalism that you know the Chinese have been famous for these, you know, cut off her head because she has filthy hands. I mean, it's over the top language, and that hasn't been withdrawn either. They told Chinese not to visit Japan because they would be physically at risk. They could be harmed by Japanese, and Japanese tourists are something. something like 25% of the tourists, Chinese tourists, or 25% of the tourists who go to Japan. So in these last three weeks, since this has happened the rhetoric gone up, the deployments

along these disputed waterways and islands that, you know, Japan and China can test a string of islands just off the coast of Japan, the tensions increased. And it's very clear. This prime minister has put a marker down, Peter. And one last thing, which is one last thing which is really stunning.

Shishi Ping, after this happened, tensions began to spiral, reached out and asked for a call with Donald Trump. So there was that call. that happened was not about trade

it wasn't about tariffs you know it was she being saying to Donald Trump oh boy she's dangerous

this could escalate ring her in and you know that or you theorize that no I know that now it got that you know

it went on to talk about trades and tariffs, but that's what prompted the call. Is anybody else in that part of the world saying anything about this? I mean, the South Koreans have a play, major play in that part of the world. And, you know, further south, whether it's Vietnam or the Philippines or is anybody saying anything? So the South Koreans, you know, have a very bad history with Japan, which is also World War II history, right? Yeah. And it took the Biden administration.

That was a heavy lift by the Biden administration to repair that. It's much better. But they are deeply worried about China. As usual, you know, their most obvious and immediate concern is North Korea. But they're very worried about China. And it's very clear that if push came to shove, they would support Japan. Vietnam was invaded. by China despite the fact that it's a communist government and so is the Chinese that doesn't matter here

the history matters and they have big issues with China the Philippines their territorial waters China does not recognize them China's claims you know literally cover this whole area the whole maritime area but between Japan and China and the Philippines in China probably the biggest asset that a president not this president but a president as in Asia

is the huge anxiety and fear that all those Asian countries have of China every one of them is worried you know it's as we've so often concluded in this program

you look at different regions of the world and what you're seeing is turmoil. Yeah. You know, whether it's Europe, now, Asia, and quite possibly, yeah, Middle East, always, that's a given. It's quite possibly parts of South America, depending on what the Americans do about Venezuela. But we have time for only one more discussion on a short one.

What is our friend, Bibi Netanyahu up to now? Oh, my. You know, the news broke on Sunday morning, Peter, you could probably hear the astonishment in my voice that he wrote a letter, the Prime Minister wrote a letter to the President of Israel requesting a pardon, even though his three corruption trials

have not concluded yet. And he's asked for an unconditional pardon made in the national interest because it's distracting him from the national security of the country no expression of any no admission of any wrongdoing whatsoever no expression of remorse and no statement that he would withdraw from act of political life when this term comes to an end, which it must do. See, who does that sound like? Who does that sound like to you?

And he didn't went ahead and made a video, which was to talk to the people in which he explicitly said that Donald Trump had made. I had advised them to do this, that this part was something that Donald Trump would support. The opposition is, outraged and

there's no precedent for this, right? You know, I hardly need to say that in order to get a pardon to have to be convicted of something. It has to be an acknowledgement of responsibility and remorse. That is going to turn

that's going to set Israeli politics on fire I can tell you. it'll be a good one what do we know about the president well it's really interesting it's really interesting the president i think in private conversations and this is a you know a bigger subject when do you do this in private conversations i think he is intimated in the past that he would be open to a pardon if there were an if there admission of responsibility and if there was a withdrawal from politics you know that's not that's a

sensible strategy sometimes when you believe that it's in the national interest that somebody moves on and this is it's like guaranteeing somebody asylum right how do you get people to move uh you guarantee them that they can spend the rest of their life in their French Riviera with good wine and good food. This is the modern equivalent, but I don't think he has ever implied that he would do this if there were not an expression of guilt and remorse and a withdrawal from political life.

You don't pardon someone so they can get on with politics as usual. Exactly. Okay, we're going to, we're going to leave it that for this week. There are lots to think about as always. Thanks for this, Janice. We'll talk to you again next week. See you next week. Dr. Janice Stein

from the Monk School at the University of Toronto on her weekly Monday session on the bridge which really is reflective of our changing world. Whenever you tune into these Monday broadcasts, you have a sense

of how things are changing. in significant ways in our world. Okay, that's going to wrap it up for today. Tomorrow will be Raj Russo, the reporter's notebook, Althea Raj and Rob Russo will be joining us with their latest sense of what's going on in the background to the Ottawa story. And there are a number of things going on this week,

so we'll look forward to tuning in with them. tomorrow on the bridge. Wednesday is a, as we've said already, is an encore day. And Thursday, your turn, the question of the week, a question of the week. You know the conditions that are placed on your answer to this question. The answer, excuse me, the question this week is, would you prefer the Swedish jets to the F-35 U.S. jets, even though it's clear from the different tests that have been done,

that the F-35 is probably a better plane. Would you prefer the Swedish jet to the American jet? That's our question for your turn this week. Keep in mind, there are already 16 F-35s that have been purchased. That deal is a done deal. Whether we'll fill out the rest of the 88 is the question. as the Canadian government is looking at other options, and one of those is the Swedish jet, the Gripen.

Friday, good talk with Bruce and Chantel. Also on Thursday, of course, the random ranter. That's it for now. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening this week, and this day, the first day of December. Cheers. Have a good one. Thank you.