The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Getting A Vaccine, Needing A Vaccine.

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

I was lucky enough to get my vaccine over the weekend, but a letter I received shortly after made me realize there are others who may be much more needy than me.  Plus the lay of the pandemic land as a new week begins with Dr Isaac Bogoch. And some big news about a guest later this week.

Hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You're just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge, where today we've got a real mixed bag of news. All right, let's start with some good news. It is great weather here in Stratford, Ontario. It was great weather over the weekend. And it looks like it's going to be that way for a few days yet. Blue sky, temperatures in the mid to high teens. Wow, you'd really think it was spring. Well, it's supposed to be spring. You'd almost think it was spring. Well, it's supposed to be spring.

You'd almost think it was summer. It's not summer. And if you believe the forecast, you know it's going to get ugly again at some point. But we're not going to think about that today. We're just going to think about the weather is nice and we're going to enjoy it. You know, I spent a lot of time outside walking around the backyard, doing my steps, and I'll be out there walking again today and looking forward to it. You know, if you listened to any of the programs last week, whether it was The Bridge or Good Talk

or Smoke Mirrors and the Truth, you probably heard me whining a little bit about the fact that my younger friends, like Chantel and Bruce, had managed quite legally and appropriately to get their vaccines last week, but not me, because even though I was older, I wasn't in the right category. And it looked like it could

be another month before I'd be in the right category. So, to my surprise, on Friday morning, the Ontario government decides actually, we want to push out some more of this AstraZeneca and we're going to spend a couple of days this weekend for those in the age bracket of 60 to 75. Available at certain pharmacies in I think Windsor, Toronto and Kingston.

And I just happen to be in Toronto at our little apartment on Friday night. And so I phoned immediately to a pharmacy. There was one of those on the list. And it rang and rang and rang. And then I got into those messages over and over and over again. And then finally, a real voice picked up the phone. And it was the pharmacist.

And I said, I understand you're taking those over 65 now. And he said, yes, we are. Only until Monday under that certain set of rules that would have been put down on Friday. And I said, well, can I book a time? And he said, yeah, absolutely. And so I booked a time for Saturday morning. And so I went over at Saturday morning. and there was a lineup at the pharmacy, and the phones were ringing off the hook at the pharmacy.

So I managed to, you know, somebody said to me, I'm sorry, there is no more vaccine available here, and there's no point in you putting down your name. And I said, no, no, actually, I have an appointment for 11 o'clock. And the fellow said, oh, okay. And he took out a list and he says, your name Peter? And I said, yes. And he said, okay, fine.

You come over here and sit down and fill out this form. So the bottom line, I got my vaccine. Now, Bruce had warned me that it was a very emotional thing. Now, I was just so rushed and hurried and kind of mind-boggled that I was actually even getting it, that the emotion never hit. Next thing I knew, I was sitting in the chair, rolled up my sleeve. The guy, the pharmacist, you know, sticks the needle in me

and you spend 15 minutes in the place just to make sure you're not going to have a reaction of some kind. And then that's it. Done. Over. Gone. and then that's it, done, over, gone. The whole time I was there, the phones never stopped ringing of people trying to get an appointment to the point where they just weren't answering them. They couldn't answer them, and they'd never get anything else done, and apparently it was like that at pharmacies across Toronto.

So then I, later that day, I drove back to Stratford. And I had this kind of mixed feeling of, you know, should I feel good? Should I feel emotional? Should I feel guilty? Because there are others who haven't got this vaccine yet, who are, you know, should be at the front of the line as far as I'm concerned. But I'd gone ahead with the process and I'd got my vaccine. Now, you have to be very careful for a couple of weeks under the same protocols as always

before the vaccine, and it's just the first dose, takes hold. And then even then after that, you're still doing all the appropriate things, wearing masks, staying socially distant, all of that. But you have the vaccine. It's in your body. socially distant, all of that. But you have the vaccine. It's in your body.

So that part of it feels pretty good. I was waiting for the after effects because some people have after effects, you know, headaches, soreness, you know, a variety of different things. Actually, I kept waiting for it and I kept thinking, oh, okay, I think I've got a headache coming on. It never came on. I was afraid I was going to miss the Leafs game

where they begin the big comeback on Saturday night after a pathetic six or seven games. But I didn't miss it. I watched the game and it was a good, it was a nice little shout out victory for the Leafs and I never

so far touch wood haven't had any kind of after effects. A little groggy perhaps a little more sleepy than usual but nothing of any real consequence.

So, that was that. I got my vaccine. Number one dosage. Then, I opened the mail at themansbridgepodcasts at gmail.com. themansbridgepodcasts at gmail.com. That's where you write, and that's where a lot of you write. So I'll tell you where this letter came from in a moment,

but let me read it to you first. I wanted to talk about an issue that doesn't seem to be making much press, COVID-19 and educators. Why is the Ontario government so set against protecting teachers? Yes, I'm biased because my husband teaches kindergarten in Hamilton and many of my patients and friends are educators. However, we are missing out on protecting a large group of frontline vulnerable people and the countless others they come in contact with. The press is not hearing about all of the cases in the schools. It's kept fairly quiet.

From a single school in Mississauga, for example, three educators are in hospital, one in ICU. A friend of mine at grade two teacher was very sick with COVID-19 in December and still suffers from some late COVID symptoms. She is sick again, probably COVID, probably a variant strain as she awaits testing. Now the letter goes on, I am going to read more, but I just want to tell you that I have checked these out, and to the best of my knowledge and ability of checking these out, all those claims are true. The public might not realize that when someone tests positive in a classroom, the entire class and educators must stay at home to quarantine for 14

days. The teachers expected to transition the very next day to online teaching, provided they're not sick. Then, if they become sick within that period, they are off work at school longer while they recover. The school boards are running out of teachers. There are few, if any, supply teachers available. And because there are so few teachers remaining at some schools, that the ones who are there have no prep coverage, an important break to eat, toilet, take care of the many administrative duties. For example, in one kindergarten class of 20 students, there were two educational assistants, gym teacher a prep coverage teacher

and the classroom teacher who were exposed often public health is so overwhelmed with contract tracing that they might not be able to contact people for days in this particular classroom although the teacher is doing it remotely now, she only had 3 of 20 students participating online. It's complicated why parents may not be able to provide online learning for their children. That's another story. It's true that in general, children who get COVID-19 don't get as sick as adults. However, they can get very sick, end up in a hospital and die as well. Because in general, they are less symptomatic or asymptomatic, they may go to school and unknowingly spread the virus to adult educators

and other schoolmates. Those adults are generally not so fortunate. They may end up very ill with COVID-19 and they and the other children may spread the virus to other family members who are also not so fortunate. At the very least, educators should have rapid COVID-19 testing available to them, especially at the affected schools. Currently, there is some testing being done, but only on weekends, and it's not widely available for them. This could make a huge difference. The public loves to complain about teachers, but anyone who knows a teacher knows

that their workday is not just the hours listed for a particular school. Most work many hours a day longer, before and after school on weekends and yes, on winter break, on March break, and during their summer vacation. And most use their own income to fund books and other supplies for the classroom for the benefit of their students. And most, like many students and parents, are running on fumes right now. This should have been their March break to physically and mentally recharge, to start anew, but alas, it's been postponed. I know many of my patients have had a hard time with this. This is a doctor writing.

Like everyone else with COVID fatigue, they had mentally prepared themselves that they could push through until March. But that was taken away, and many suffer emotionally, mentally, and physically as a result. Yes, education is important, and everyone is working their hardest to keep the kids in school for their emotional and intellectual well-being. But in a race against the variants, we need to vaccinate our educators now, not just for them, but for everyone whose lives they touch. This could make a huge impact. Another great letter from Dr. Jane Rosnack. She's a physician in St. Catharines, Ontario. You may remember her name.

She was the letter of the week last week. That's right. Same person. Now, when I read Dr. Jane's letter, you know, especially just after getting a vaccine, and I'm basically a guy who's staying at home, is obeying the rules from that end of things. I'm staying at home, but I'm not under, you know, any enormous threat. But I got the vaccine, legally, appropriately, following the rules.

The teachers aren't getting it. Now, I don't know how universal this is across the country. It seems to suggest to me from the checking I've done that it's kind of similar in most parts of the country. I'd love to hear from teachers who can write to me at themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. Let me know. I know many of my listeners are teachers

because I've read their other letters over the last year. So if you want to add to that message, please do. And as I said, it's, you know, it's been, it's been very strange for me to read that letter after I received a vaccine. Sure.

I'm 72 and I'm, you know, in an elderly population and one of the vulnerable areas. But I'm not a teacher who's going through what some of these teachers are going through. I talked to a couple last night. I read them this letter. Well, you know, phase two of Ontario's rollout plan on vaccines starts next week, April 1st. And phase two has in it educators, teachers. But there are a lot of different groups in phase two,

a lot of different age groups in phase two. But up there near the top are educators. Now, I don't know how they're going to roll this out and when they're going to ask for educators to come in, teachers to come in. But let's hope it's near the top. Phase two runs from April to July. Let's get the teachers in now.

All right. I'm going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to do what we always do on Mondays. We're going to get a sense of the lay of the land that's coming up what i've tried to do uh every monday for the past year is get a sense from some of the infectious disease specialists that we count on to help us out on this story for the last year. And they're in Halifax and Edmonton and Toronto and Hamilton. And they've been great. And I really appreciate them taking their time. This week, it was the turn for Dr. Isaac Bogoch in Toronto.

He is an infectious disease specialist at the University of Toronto. He's also on the kind of the vaccination rollout board where they discuss all these things. But his primary responsibility is as an infectious disease specialist, and he's helped and is trying to help all of us understand what we're going through, the highs and lows of what we're going through, and how he thinks we should be behaving. So I wanted to get him for this week, and the only time I could do that was last night,

because he's a busy guy. So we recorded this interview, so when he refers to tomorrow, he's actually referring to today. Got it? So let's listen to the good doctor and see what advice he has for us right now. All right, well, let's start the way we always start, the beginning of a new week. Where do you see the lay of the land right now? I think Canada is in a challenging position, unfortunately. We're doing

really well for at least February, but by early March, many places, or throughout March, I should say, many places started to see a rise in cases, and it's unfortunate, but it's pretty clear that we're either at the beginning or somewhere farther than the beginning of a third wave in many parts of Canada. I think Atlantic Canada is still doing very, very well and the North is holding on. Quebec's actually doing okay, but everybody else seems to be unfortunately showing a trend in a rise in cases.

So we've got to be careful because we've already been through this twice before. We know, we know what this means. So yeah yeah unfortunately i think we are in the midst of a third wave here well but are people not listening i don't mean people like you know just ordinary people i'm talking about governments like you look at ontario the numbers have gone up considerably just you know even in the last week and yet at the same time they're opening things up you know i was in toronto yesterday driving down uh you know university avenue and there are people out at uh you know a restaurant sitting out on the you know the outside portion

um and and you know things are opening up weather's nice you wouldn't know anything was going on yeah it's uh it's it's kind of unfortunate because i think over a year into this we already know who gets infected how they get infected where they get infected we know how to prevent it as well i mean we've been through this twice before you have the collective ontario experience you have the collective canadian experience you have the collective global experience, there's really fewer and fewer surprises. To be totally transparent, I really am supportive of outdoor dining. I'm supportive of outdoor everything. I mean, if we could just move anything business or anything outdoors, it's so much safer. Of course, nothing's 100% perfect, but we just know that outdoor environments are much, much safer compared to indoor environments. So restaurants want to do outdoor dining.

I'm totally supportive. I hope we, in the short term, take over the sidewalks and the parks and really let businesses do what businesses do, but just let them do it outdoors. The indoor issue is very peculiar and surprising to many because, as you point out, cases are going up. We are clearly in a third wave uh and like it would come to no one's surprise if you start putting more and more people into an indoor setting and then take their masks off like that's how you get super spreading events that's how it's transmitted we know that by now so that was a little unusual and you know i don't think you need a crystal ball to see how this ends. What difference does the vaccine situation make now in that climate where numbers are raising? I mean, after much whining and moaning on my part, I ended up getting my vaccine this weekend.

And, you know, it's a great feeling and everything. But at the same time, you're going, yeah, but there's this big problem still existing out here. So what difference does it make in real terms if you are able to get the vaccine now? And I'll get to the issue about those who don't seem to be taking advantage of this. But what's the difference? Well, for starters, the vaccination pace is growing. That's obviously good news and clear and you know everybody in long-term care over 90 percent of people have had one and very close to

almost everyone of those have had their second dose of a vaccine phenomenal like the most vulnerable of the vulnerable is is protected um and well they'll be afforded tremendous protection regardless of how high this third wave is. Same with people over the age of 80 in the community. I mean, this is great. They're not 100% vaccinated, but they're vaccinated. So the pace of vaccination obviously needs to pick up. Those who are vaccinated will have some degree of protection, but the pace of vaccination is not going to beat the pace of infection. We have, you know, tomorrow we're

moving into vaccinating 75 plus and of course AstraZeneca is now available to 60 plus. Obviously great news and the number of people vaccinated day after day is going to start growing. Great, but that's still not going to stop a third wave and of course i think one of the real challenges here that people might not realize is the icus were not fully decompressed following a second wave um and we're not really starting from scratch with this first wave like the icus are you know at a bit of a perilous place like there's not a lot of wiggle

room i think the other thing people should realize too is that with covet 19 it's not all frail long-term care residents that are getting sick and being hospitalized and dying like that represents about maybe about 10 to 13 percent of hospitalizations uh there's a lot of people in their 40s and their 50s and their 60s that get sick with covid19 that land in hospital and sadly land in the icu so just by vaccinating all of long-term care and now vaccinating 80 plus and moving our way to 75 plus it of course it helps of course it helps but it doesn't solve that problem of preventing a third wave and it certainly doesn't solve that problem of preventing a third wave and it certainly doesn't solve that problem of having our hospitals and our icus fill up unfortunately if we are in a third

wave now and you you maintain we are um is there any way of judging the severity of the infection in this third wave versus what we've witnessed in in the first two waves well there's sort of competing issues here making things better is that many of the people who uh would be at risk for covid 19 are vaccinated so for example those in long-term care who depending on time and place in the country long-term care accounted for anywhere between 50 to 80 percent of the deaths they're just you know they still might get sick but way, way fewer of them will get sick enough to land in hospital if they do get this infection, and way, way fewer of them are going to die. On the other hand, you've got the variants of concern.

For example, the B.1.1.7 variant. That's the one that was initially discovered in the United Kingdom. It's clearly more transmissible. It just causes larger outbreaks. But there also is data demonstrating that it can cause more severe symptoms. And I think what we're going to see is a wave in parts of the country, perhaps partially driven by the variants of concern, including the B.1.1.7 variant, which means we're going to see 40 year olds 50 year olds 60 year olds who have not yet been vaccinated uh landing unfortunately in hospital and in the icu and again like the icus just don't have that wiggle room at least in ontario they don't like they

just never were fully decompressed following the second wave um so we're not really starting from a good place to begin with so i think we've got got to, you know, you'd say, okay, we've got to be careful here. ICUs are filling up hospitals or hospitalizations are starting to rise. We should really take steps to curb cases and curb transmission to the community. But then we see that we're allowing more and more people into indoor venues without masks. Like, I mean, i think it's not nice to talk about but i really don't see this ending well and i wouldn't be surprised if we carry on this pace

you know we may have another lockdown and that would ultimately be driven by reduced hospital capacity what are we doing wrong in terms of of getting people vaccinated people who are eligible now and it's the vaccine hesitancy issue and and i'm not talking about those who are sort of against vaccines you know who are anti-vaxxers but those who are just they're hesitant for any number of different reasons they've become hesitant what are we doing wrong in not being able to convince them well that's going to take about three hours but let's let's let's talk about some high level points one is that we should be taking an empathetic approach and we should really be listening to what the concerns are and addressing that it's

easier said than done i think what you'll find and again i've spent the last i don't know since december uh reaching out and discussing various issues with various communities in ontario and i think you'll find that um different communities have different concerns. I think it's clear that we need grassroots support, and it's extremely helpful to empower local leaders and local health care leaders that represent various groups to best inform communities that they represent. It's not easy to do. There have been some successes. I think we've seen really good uptake, for example, with many Indigenous communities in Ontario, and that's a significant success. And that's because Indigenous leadership throughout the province really recognized that this was a big issue. They spent countless hours learning about the vaccines. They spent

countless hours speaking with those that they represent about the vaccines. They reached out to expertise. And when the vaccine program started to roll into their communities, they were very accepting of it. I mean, it's not over yet, but to date, I'd categorize that as a huge success, especially on the in the remote more uh flying communities but of course there's still many many other communities that are hesitant we haven't done ourselves any favors for example with the astrazeneca vaccine i think that sadly the public messaging and uh has been pretty poor. And some of the policy changes could have been messaged a lot better as well. We've sort of build it up, unfortunately, and unfairly as a second class

vaccine. And I don't think that's fair. I don't think it is. So we certainly haven't done ourselves any favors as well with one of the three vaccines that we currently have in the country. Now, as of tomorrow, it's available to anyone over the age of 60 and up in Ontario. I really hope people take advantage of this. We're headed into a third wave. There's still a lot of COVID-19 out there, and this vaccine truly can help save your life. It's a very good product. We've seen it used tens of millions of times. There's great data from real world situations where it just reduces the risk

of people getting sick, going to hospital and dying. Seems pretty clear to me. You can either get a vaccine and prevent your risk of death or not get a vaccine and, and, and wing it while we're in the middle of a third wave. I mean, I, I really hope people take this one. Well, it's the one that's in my arm. So, so, so I'm buying the argument that it works. Okay. Last, last point. You, you've made it sound very clearly throughout this whole interview that we, we are at yet another critical moment in this story and how, you know, we all we all behave, I guess, and how we all act over these next couple of weeks is really going to tell a story about when we may or may not be getting out of this.

Yeah, I think there's I like this concept of shared responsibility. I mean, yes, we certainly need senior political leadership and senior public health leadership to set a smart policy to keep us safe. We absolutely do. But in the same breath, there are things that are under our control that we can do as well. And we should be doing this too. So there really is shared responsibility.'m concerned right like we've got cases on the rise actually on the rise rather quickly and we've got policy that does not necessarily keep us safe and actually will likely make things worse so i don't and based on you know we have to time stamp every conversation but based on where we're at now i can't look in the crystal ball at least the next week or two and think that things are

going to get any better. They might stay the same, but I don't think they're going to improve. And sadly, they'll probably get a little bit worse, if not much worse. If we don't turn things around, and if the pace of new infections continues to rise, we know what happens. We've been through this twice before. It ends up resulting in more people landing in hospital and then more people landing in the ICU. And suddenly when you don't have hospital capacity, when you cannot care for your population and your hospitals are not just overburdened, but they're completely overloaded. You don't have any options left. You have to, as much as everyone hates lockdowns, as devastating as lockdowns are,

sadly, that's the only option you have left to decompress your hospitals and protect your healthcare system. You've seen what happens when a healthcare system fails, right? We saw that in Houston. We saw that in New York. We saw that in Wuhan. We saw that in Northern Italy. It's totally preventable. We saw it in Belgium where they were sending ICU patients

to Germany. Like, avoidable. Don't need to get there. Well, on that note, Isaac Bogoch, we're going to thank you again, as we always do. I'm looking forward to the week where at the end you say, well, Peter, you know, that's it. We're not going to need to have these talks anymore. Well, Peter, in all fairness, no matter how badly we screw up the next little bit, and we might, this is still going to get better, right?

Even if we screw this up royally, and that might happen, it's still going to get better. Vaccines are rolling out, and they're starting to roll out quickly. That's not going to prevent a third wave, but what goes up must come down. And at the tail end of this wave, we're going to enter a very, very good summer.

We are Casey. The weather is going to be working in our favor. Vaccination is going to be working in our favor. And, and, you know, it would be nice to get there without a third wave, but you know, this is bad as this gets, this will also end.

And I think regardless, what is it, April soon? By late May, I think things are, mid-May, late May, things will start to improve no matter what happens over the next few weeks. Well, I sure hope and I'm sure all our listeners hope that uh you're right on that one thanks again take care how we're going well you wanted uh you wanted it straight from the uh what is that phrase straight from the shoulder straight from the hip straight from the wherever that's it there is the situation as of, you know, basically today, the 22nd of March, 2021, more than a year since we got into this. But Dr. Isaac Bogoch from University of Toronto Infectious Disease Specialist,

his take on where we are, what we're about to confront, the fact that it ain't over yet, but the fact that it's going to be over. So as I said at the beginning of this, some good news and some bad news. So it could be a tough little while that we're about to go through here. Okay. I wanted to give you a heads up on what's happening on Wednesday. I hinted at this last week that we got a special guest this week, and we do.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is joining the bridge for a special episode on Wednesday afternoon. This will be an exclusive to SiriusXM. So let me just point that out. It's a special edition of The Bridge, one o'clock Eastern, Wednesday afternoon. All right. Special edition, exclusive to SiriusXM. Now, if you want to check out the different options available to you on SiriusXM, please go to the link

SiriusXM.ca slash Peter Mansbridge. That'll take you to some free trial offers and the possibility of listening into the Justin Trudeau interview on Wednesday afternoon. Now, having said that, the hour before on the regular Wednesday edition, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth of the Bridge with Bruce Anderson with us, we will play a major excerpt from that interview. All right?

And that will be on. So that's Wednesday at noon, wherever you get your podcasts. It'll be on Sirius XM, obviously, but also wherever you get your podcasts. The full interview, you got to, uh, you got to check in and subscribe to, you know, one of the free offers. But on the regular edition of The Bridge, a major excerpt, so I'm not sure how long it'll be, probably, I don't know, five, six, seven minutes at least.

The interview itself will be probably around 35, 40 minutes, and we're going to cover a fair chunk of ground, I hope. But clearly, for many people, the most important ground is the issue of the pandemic and the vaccines. But there are other issues as well. You know them.

China, the economy, possibility of an election, all those things. All right. Time to wrap it up for this day. That is The Bridge. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Peter Mansbridge. We'll talk to you again in 24 hours.