The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Going Inside Kiev -- Why Morale Is So High.

Episode Date: February 28, 2022

First up today, we go to Kiev to talk to the internationally known academic Olexiy Haran for an on-the-ground description of life in the embattled city.  And why morale remains so high.  But it's also Monday and we hold true to our weekly commitment to stay on the pandemic story with a focus this week on masks and the push to end use of them.  Science Sam, Dr Samantha Yammine is with us for that.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. Today we go inside Kiev, where the confidence of the embattled city is still very high. And I know, I know many of you are saying, hey, but Peter, it's Monday. You promised you would stay on the pandemic story. Don't worry, I'm staying on the pandemic story for this Monday. But we're going to start in Kiev. A little later in the program, we'll bring in Science Sam.

Dr. Samantha Yumin, very popularly known on social media circles as Science Sam, and her take on masks right now, because it's very interesting to watch some of the discussion going on about, okay, come on, let's get rid of masks. But that's coming up a little later. So we'll hold true to the Monday pandemic COVID angle that we've been doing for a couple of years.

But we can't ignore what's going on in Ukraine on any day as we've noted all through last week. And you clearly want to hear about it as well. So I have some thoughts, and I have a great discussion with a friend who's in Kiev right now, lives in Kiev, teaches at the University of Kiev.

So, but let me make this point, because there's a lot of jumping to conclusions about what's going on in and around the story. Well, let me remind you of this. Comparisons are being made, too. This is the first time since the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 where we've had the world so on the edge. Well, you know, I was alive at that time. We were on the edge.

And we used to watch those television appearances by President Kennedy explaining to the world what was happening. And, you know, everybody was on edge. Of that, there is no doubt. Now, in the 60 years since then, almost every year, and especially again this year on the 60th anniversary, there will be stories about what was really going on in the background. Who was talking to whom? What were they saying? What was happening?

What were the deals struck? And every time that happens, there's new information comes out. 60 years later, we're still learning about what really happened during those 13 days in October of 1962. So keep that in mind. We're having some brilliant journalism done from inside Ukraine by networks and newspapers and social media online. Social media is actually, there's been some good stuff, a lot of misinformation still, but there's also been some really good stuff that major news organizations have relied upon to some degree in telling the story.

But there's some great stories that must be happening as well that we don't really know the ins and outs of. Who's really running the Western response to all this? Which has, appears to have been so far, so far, things could change. The Western response so far, in the immediacy of all this we can argue about the months leading up to it but in the immediacy oh it seems to be pretty brilliant who's running it the assumption always is at least if you watch american television oh it's all been run from was. Well, maybe it is. Maybe it is Joe Biden's greatest moment.

Maybe. We don't know. We don't know exactly how that's operating. Is it being run from Berlin by the new German government, who have surprised people every day of this conflict? They were going to stay out of it. They were still going to keep their pipeline going for energy supplies to Russia.

No, they're not. They'll never get into the process of sending arms to Ukraine. Sorry, they are. And money. So what's going on in Berlin? How's that unfolding? Is that an independent initiative?

Or is that in concert with other countries? How's that unfolding? Boris Johnson, for all the criticism and deserved criticism that he's taken over the so-called party gate affair, I don't know whether you saw him on the weekend. I did. I was watching a British feed, watched his scrum outside an aircraft that was just taking military supplies to Ukraine, an RAF, big four-engine transport plane at one of the British airfields. He was Churchillian. I use that advisedly in terms of what he had to say.

What's happening in Ottawa? Right? You know, the buzz around is that so much of what's the Canadian position is being orchestrated, organized, and done in concert with some European nations by the Deputy Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland. And we all know of her Ukrainian connections, personal as well as professional. So there are lots of stories to be told here, and we haven't heard them yet, but we will. The dominant story that we are hearing is this incredible confidence

and the ability of the Ukrainian people to say, you know what, we're not going to let you have our land. We're certainly not going to let you have it without a fight. And that's what's been going on for the first four or five days of this. To the point at which there's some kind of talks going on between the Russians and the Ukrainians at the border with Belarus right now. So, this story is wide-ranging. And one of the ways that we stay in touch is being able to talk to some of the people in Kiev.

And let me tell you about Alexei Haran. He's a professor of comparative politics at the University of Kiev. He's also the. So I wanted to touch base with him again today to see where are we? And the last thing he said to me on Friday was he was heading out the door to buy a gun and not to buy a gun, to get a gun because they were handing out guns rifles for the street fight now alexis not a spring chicken but he was part as part of that you know people's army that's been formed in kiev and in cities across ukraine so i reached him a couple of hours ago and here ago, and here's the conversation we had. Alexei, can you describe the situation that you see and that you hear from your location today?

Okay, so yesterday there was a curfew in Kiev. Actually, it was prohibited to go outside our apartments. The idea was to prevent Russian diversions to have operations within the city because they were using the tactics of infiltration. So that's why the mayor asked Kyivites to stay at home in order to check if there are any suspicious people in the streets. So the shops were closed, the streets were empty.

We heard a lot of explosions. Explosions around the city. Today, I had one explosion in the morning, but not more. People are in the street, shops are open, there are lines, definitely. But, well, I would say it's going back to kind of normal. Definitely, it's not a normal situation.

But anyway, so... What's in the stores? Do the stores have supplies? Do you have trouble getting food? Well, I sent my wife to double check. So I'm doing, I'm on the information front talking to you and other media because I am bombarded by the whole world.

And this is actually good. The world tries to understand what's going on. And there is an understanding there is a growing and growing understanding of what Ukraine is doing that Russia is an aggression is aggressive state uh so my wife will come back and then I will inform you well two days ago ago it was possible to get bread for example if you go to the plant which is producing the bread so not far from our place and I live in the north of Kyiv quite close about 20 kilometers to the front line to the main attack to the Kyiv from the north. So and they spread the bread for free, actually. But in other places, there was no bread.

So you had to you had to wait you had to stay in lines still it was possible to buy to buy some food so many shops were closed what's morale what's morale like okay so the morale is the morale is high very. So I think the most important thing to understand in the West is that, look, first of all, we have a very tough political struggle in Ukraine because we are a democracy and Ukrainians like to criticize any government. You know, it's tradition for Ukrainians and political culture of Ukrainians that we mistrust the state. Why? Because it was mostly

it was foreign state which dominated Ukraine. So the reason is trust. And that's why Ukrainians also like to criticize and to criticize everybody. However, now what we see is the unity between Zelensky and the opposition. They are working together, hand in hand. This is very, very encouraging. Also, once again, there is a demonstration that Ukrainian,

we have political nation in Ukraine, which means that, well, I think for Canada, it's easier to understand that for most Europeans, for example, because we have English speaking. Oh, sorry. We have Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians, Russian speakers. We have Russians, ethnic. We have Crimean Tatars, Jews. And there is a sense of unity. This sense of unity appeared long ago. It was boosted in 2014 after Russian aggression. And now it's boosted in 2014 after Russian aggression, and now it's boosted even more.

So a lot of people, you know, who are Russian speakers, we see them taking arms. And so, you know, this was one of the main huge miscalculations of Putin because he believed, despite all the polls, that Ukrainians are split. And this is simply not the case. So Russian speakers are taking arms as well. And I was telling you that I was going to get my gun. So I went on Saturday to the territorial defense.

But look, the enthusiasm was so high that during two days, there were 100,000 Ukrainians who get the guns, who signed for territorial defense, and they formed the brigade and well wasn't one brigade you know so they are now they're going to organize the next next brigade and so there were lines but there was no no guns enough guns so unfortunately i couldn't take the gun but there would be more supply so people are ready to take it and among those who were staying in

lines you know youngs and elderly people so it's very you know, touching sense of patriotism. And look, you may look how there are many videos right now. I saw actually in my vicinity, I saw how people were digging trenches from other places. I saw videos because it's well, I'm not moving around the whole city, but what I see in my vicinity. But I see videos from other places, you know, how people are preparing Molotov cocktails. And now we have Ukrainian term for that. It's called Bandera Smoothie. So Bandera was the leader of Ukrainian nationalists in World War II.

And Russians are very, very afraid of this name. So we call it Bandera Smoothie. Alexei, let me ask you about the situation that's going on as we're speaking there there are negotiations or discussions going on between Russians and Ukrainians near the border um are you hopeful that those discussions can actually lead to anywhere not really frankly speaking look uh look first of all look there are negotiations but Russians

didn't stop offensive and they clearly stated that okay we have negotiations but we are not stopping military

operation which is actually clearly a sign of and they continued shelling yesterday after it was announced

that we would have negotiations but they continued shelling yesterday after it was announced that we would have negotiation. But they continued shelling of Kiev and other cities. So I think, you know, Putin is going crazy and he will definitely try to do something else. And I believe he's still hoping that he would hit Ukrainians militarily. And if he doesn't succeed, I think that he may increase the shellings of Ukrainian cities. So perhaps he understands. I'm not sure because, you know, he seems to be totally out of touch that

he may have some military fruits and then use it to seize some more Ukrainian lands and then to have a good bargaining position on the uh on negotiation negotiation table but what we are surprised actually all of us are surprised ukrainians it's that the russian

army appeared to be not strong you know they're using out of date some techniques is some equipment is out of date the morale is low they're using that they're sending to the fire to the battle 20 year old guys not a qualified soldiers so and this is really really surprising you know for us because we were told about the Russian army, how it's great. And actually, we were expecting that Putin would send the best troops, the real killers on Ukraine. But it appears that it was quite weak. So, what may happen is that they have some reserves and hections are very, very important. Finally, they arrived. Strong sanctions, strong military support and strong economic sanctions.

Actually, we were asking for that since 2014 when Russia first attacked Ukraine. But the West wasn't ready for that, unfortunately. Unfortunately. So now, now finally it's arriving many thanks for that many thanks to canada we really appreciate what canada is doing but it's early to uh it's early to miscalculate putin He may do a lot of harm. I think we'll leave it on that point, Alexei, and, you know, wish you the best over the

days ahead, and obviously we'll connect back with you as well to see how things are going. But there's a confidence in your voice in terms of the unity of the Ukrainian people in this conflict, battle,

fight with Russia. We shall overcome. Slava Ukraini, Slava Kanadi. Glory to Ukraine and glory to Canada. Thank you, sir. We'll talk again soon. Yes, sure. Well, there he is.

Professor Alexei Haran at the University of Kiev. He's actually in his home today and has been for the last four or five days. He sent his daughters to, they're in a, there were at least for much of the weekend in an underground shelter. Things seem a little calmer in that area today, to the extent, as you heard him say, his wife went shopping today, at least to get some bread.

But I don't know whether you were struck as well as I was. Now, I just talked to him on Friday. He didn't sound anywhere near as confident on Friday as he did today. So that's encouraging in terms of his own situation. Anyway, we'll stay in touch with Alexei and we'll definitely bring him to you again in terms of how the situation unfolds. And we'll stay on this, obviously, throughout this week.

At one point, he said putin is crazy which raises the question is putin crazy like imbalanced or is he crazy like a fox we've got a guest tomorrow whose focus is 100 on vladimir putin and we'll hear what he has to say but we're going to take a quick pause and then then we come back with our Monday regular, our look at the COVID pandemic situation with a focus on masks when we come back. Thank you. In the storm In the storm

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In the storm In the storm In the storm In the storm In the storm In the storm In the storm the latest episode, the Monday episode, for yet another week. I'm Peter Mansbridge. You're listening on SiriusXM Canada, Channel 167, Canada Talks,

or on your favorite podcast platform. And as we always say, wherever you're listening from, glad you joined us. Okay, our focus on Mondays has been been for the last couple of years has been on the pandemic and for good reason and we keep that going today with our second segment and it's with a very popular figure on on the social media circuit she's a neuroscientist dr samantha yameamin better known as science sam

so i wanted to get her take on well on something specific so let's let's get right to it here's dr sam so for the last couple of years we really haven't had anything else to talk about except the pandemic and people have been consumed by it to the point where they were wished they were able to talk about something else well in the last month six weeks we've certainly had other things to talk about there was the truckers convoy and that took a lot of everybody's time and and attention and now there's ukraine um so in the space of a you know the last four or six weeks we haven't really been talking as a people to each other about the pandemic like we were. And I'm wondering, is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? I think it's always important to pay attention to things that are going on.

And of course, while the pandemic's a very big thing going on and very worthy of concern and our attention, there are a lot of other problems in the world. And I think some of them have taken a backseat. Climate change is another example that's an ongoing crisis we haven't been paying attention to. So I think it's a lot to hold. And I think we need to sometimes alternate because there's so much. But I do think that even if it's not the front page news, we can't pretend that it doesn't exist anymore. And so I think holding all of those things is a lot for any one person, and we got to pace it. But we absolutely still need to remember that a pandemic is ongoing even if there are other crises as well and i guess that's what i was getting at because it seems for a lot of people um it it has taken

very much a backseat i mean you see it in the way people act the way people talk the way people are are seen in the streets or seen in crowds or in restaurants. It's like it's behind us, but it's not behind us. I wish it were, but it's definitely not. And yeah, there's a lot we can say about how we, yeah, we can't wishful thinking our way out of it. I think we've tried that many times over and it hasn't been a successful strategy. The most visible part of our, you know, fight against COVID has been wearing of masks. And it was interesting in the last couple of days, because I heard this clip, I want to play it for you. It's Rochelle walensky who's the director of the cdc

the center for disease control in the united states um and she was asked by andy slavitt who used to work at the white house as part of their covid um response team um and he like like all of us these days has a podcast and he had dr walensky on the on his podcast the other day and he brought up this issue of masking um and and the seeming reluctance well not necessarily reluctance but the sort of advancement on the part of people to not wear masks anymore and he wanted to get her thoughts on this i just know people are tired. And the scarlet letter of this pandemic is the mask. It may be painless. It may be easy, but it's inconvenient. It's annoying. And it reminds us that we're in the middle of a pandemic, right?

And so we get to live our lives again normally if we don't have to wear the mask. We came down dramatically in cases from where we were just a few short weeks ago. We were at a million a day. And that's only the ones through PCR, right? That's not even the ones for rapid testing that we know we're not counting. So, we are down to 150,000, 200,000 a day, which I think is great, but we're not really low. And so I think I appreciate that governors are wanting to lean in and to give people promise and hope that these masks will be removed. So what she's saying there, Rochelle Walensky, the CDC director, she seems in some ways to be having it both ways because she makes the arguments as to why so many of us would really like to ditch the masks

and yet at the same time she's reminding us that hey i know we're just talking about the american numbers obviously and all those numbers she's quoting um that we're far from over this yet there's still a lot of people who are getting covered every day um but what i found interesting was how the mask has become the symbol now of whether we're done with this or not that's the first time i'm hearing that clip by the way. And I, I don't under, I don't understand it. I don't understand calling a mask a scarlet letter, first of all. Um, and I know that people feel many types of way about masks. Can I just say like for the record, I find them pretty annoying sometimes, sometimes it stresses me out and I got to leave a store

so I can go outside and take my mask off and be more comfortable for a second. So I empathize with the fact that wearing a mask sometimes sucks, especially if you're talking a lot or trying to exercise or something. But to throw it away just because people have these feelings about it, to throw it away because it's been made into a symbol. When we know that it's a really important way to protect people, when there are millions of disabled people and chronically ill people who are vulnerable, I just don't really get the logic. As you said, they're trying to have it both ways. They're telling people like, here's a break, but also just a few weeks ago we were in major crisis like what do we think is going to happen when we drop masks i i don't really i don't know it's it's just shocking really masks with us then in your in your sense they're going to be with us for a long time

i'll be wearing mine for a long time it's it kind of common sense, I think. And I think even in the future, when traveling in a crowded airport it's still widely circulating here where I live and definitely all across the US. I don't really understand why they're the easiest thing that people can do for themselves and their community. So I don't get why we would discourage them just because they've become a symbol perhaps. and because people have sort of weaponized if you wear a mask you're like you know conforming and weak or something i think we should be opposing that not giving in and dropping something that we know scientifically medically is helpful um as you know there there are parts of the world that were wearing masks long before

COVID came because they'd been through other situations, especially in the last 20-30 years, where mask wearing is commonplace in public, especially crowded public areas. It just seems, I don't know, maybe it's something about the North American culture.

Because when you look, when you watch television, you watch, you know, sporting events or just general events, especially in the U.S., it's hard to find masks sometimes. Like, I mean, it's hard to find them on people. They're just not wearing them. Yeah. I get it. Yeah, but it does lead to this impression that it's over. You know, we realize people are getting COVID and people are getting sick. Hopefully, you know, mildly sick to use that word.

And that's sort of been accepted. But we're moving on and we're getting back to normal somehow. And, you know, it seems to me to be a real challenge for those in health care and those who are advising governments about the situation and about the way forward. This issue of masking in public and in in big areas yeah i i really i get that people don't want it makes sense to me um our brains do a lot of associative learning and you learn to associate one thing with something else and for many of us seeing a mask can trigger a kind of stress response where it's like, ah, this horrible thing.

Of course, we have these awful associations with masks because they remind us of the pandemic, of the people we've lost, of being in lockdowns, all of these things. I get all of that. I appreciate it. I feel it very deeply as well. I would like to not have to see a mask,

but at the same time, I'd also like to live in reality. I'd also like to not ignore things because we've done this before already. There have been states, there have been provinces that haven't used masks. We know what happens. We're not in the age of the pandemic where it's like, it's unprecedented. No, we are unprecedented. We are in predictable times. We know what's going to happen. The thing that they're doing is also now reducing access to testing and making it so that it will be a lot harder to track. So when, yeah, there are just going to be all of these ways where we know what's going to happen. It may not be as obvious anymore because we're not tracking things and reporting them in the same way, but it's still going to be bad.

So I don't know why we're going towards this specific type of people say back to normal, but what we're really doing is worse than that. We're going to a new normal that's actually horrible because many people are still going to be getting sick. Our healthcare systems are still going to be overwhelmed. We're accepting that immunocompromised people now are going to have even fewer safe options. I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay with acting like disabled people don't exist.

They do. And this makes life way harder for them. People who have had surgeries, cancer. This is not the normal I want to go towards. So it's just really, really difficult for me. And I've been quite actually sad about the, I don't know, just the willful ignorance that we're allowing in our political landscape. Well, there does seem to be a trend there right now i mean not all governments are acting the same way but there's certainly some governments are acting in the way of it you know we're done with all these restrictions we're moving on accepting certain things may

happen but it's clearly something that's bothering you and I assume a lot of other people in the healthcare field. Yeah, it's been very demoralizing. It's been, frankly, very disheartening and a little depressing the last few weeks just seeing this trend all over the world and even in Canada. One sentiment that I really, I know is out there that makes many people agree with these next steps is, well, it doesn't seem like this is going away. And a lot of people tell me, you know, Sam, we do have to just learn to live with this. It's not going anywhere. So we can't just live like we have been forever. And to that, I say, yeah, we should learn to live with this. But the key word there is learn. And it doesn't feel like we've done that part. We should learn to live with this. But the key word there is learn. And it doesn't feel like we've done that part. We should learn to live with this and not accept a worse state than before and not accept millions

dying, millions getting sick, millions becoming disabled long term because of long COVID. That doesn't sound like learning to me when we have tools where we can still have great quality of life and also support those in our community and in the world. What kind of signal does it send when a political leader is saying, let's drop masks? How do you think the immunocompromised person feels? That's a symbol. Removing a mask is the symbol to them that you don't care about them. I don't want to live in a society like that. So keeping on a mask is telling people, I still care about you. And I care about myself too. I'm doing this for you and for me. So I just don't want to live in that kind of world. And I think we

need to just push for better and push people to learn to live with this. Learn in a way that will help us all live with this. Thank you for being so blunt about how you feel about this. I know I kind of threw this at you without any warning, but listen, it's great to hear you on it. if you want can you do you want to tell us something hopeful something on the upside of where we are right now before uh before we call it a call it a show things that i'm hopeful about is we just had in canada uh i have a few covet related things i'm hopeful about that i'm going to share if that's okay um i'm hopeful that we do have people in the House of Commons pushing for global equity of vaccines. We had a motion the first week that they were back in the House from an MP, Nader Smith, pushing for Canada to support global vaccine and overall resource equity. I'm hopeful for that.

I think we need more of that and I hope it goes somewhere. I'm hopeful that there are scientists still working on treatments, still working on new vaccines without IP issues so that they can be manufactured around the world like Corvax. That makes me really hopeful. And I'm hopeful and grateful as someone who's fully vaccinated and boosted and has access to great masks, that now is a time when I can consider maybe looking into a trip or something fun to get away. And I think I do feel empowered now with some tools available that I can do stuff I haven't in a while. And I'm really optimistic about that. I'm planning a wedding that's really great i didn't think that we'd be able to have one and now we it looks like we might be able to so

those things give me hope and um i hope that other people find hope in those things too well i do it's great to hear you talk that way as well fully aware um of the challenges that still face us and we spent a good chunk of time talking about one of the challenges that still face us. And we spent a good chunk of time talking about one of the main ones that's facing us right now in, in allowing people and governments to get perhaps a little too far ahead of themselves. Thanks so much for this as always.

It's been great talking to you. Thank you for having me back. It's a, it's a true honor. you thank you for having me back it's a it's a true honor dr uh samantha yameen neuroscientist better known of course as science sam and you can find her on uh twitter and instagram hey science sam is her instagram handle. And as always, love talking to her. Love hearing what she has to say, as I have done with all our healthcare experts over the last couple of years

from different parts of the country. All right, that's going to wrap it up for today. A multi-segmented program from Kiev to pandemic. And there's lots more coming up this week inside Putin's brain tomorrow. You don't want to miss that one. Bruce will be by for smoke mirrors and truth on Wednesday, your mail, your mailbag on Thursday and Friday, of course, good talk with Chantelle Hebert and Bruce Anderson.

Hope you have a good week and keep in mind all the things we talked about today take care i'm peter mansbridge thanks so much for listening you've been listening to the bridge we'll talk to you again in 24 hours.