The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Good Talk -- Does Smaller Mean Better?

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Day One of the Carney administration reveals a much smaller cabinet, almost half the size of previous ones of late.  But is this all about optics or does it really mean a slimmer, more accountable and effective  "war" cabinet for the fight ahead?

Are you ready for Good Talk? And hello there, good Friday to all of you on the Good Talk world. Rob Russo, Chantelle Hebert are both here. I'm Peter Mansbridge. A big day in the nation as the nation welcomes its 24th prime minister officially today. The right honorable Mark Carney becomes prime minister after being sworn in by the governor general. And Justin Trudeau has stepped down and is moving out. The other thing that happens, of course, is there's a new cabinet appointed. As we record, they're still, they're still have yet to release the names. We have a good idea, but I don't want to get bogged down in names anyway. But what I can do is get

started with this issue of the fact that Carney is appointing a much smaller cabinet, probably about, you know, roughly half the size of the cabinets we've been used to in the kind of, you know, modern politics era. So my question is, you know, falls out of the old size matters thing. Does size matter? Is smaller necessarily better? Rob, you start us. Yeah, I think so. I think the swelling of cabinet to grotesque levels that we've seen in the last few years, and it happens to every government. Every government

comes in with a cabinet of around 25 to 30, and then it ends up going to 40, sometimes over 40. It happened with Mr. Harper. It happened certainly with Mr. Trudeau. Some of those jobs are meaningless and they're baubles and they're meant to reward people in certain regions and people of certain religions, people of certain ethnicities. It's not really a working cabinet often, which is why you had in some governments, the Priorities and Plannings Commission, like the PNP people, like there are five or six people who really do run government on a minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day basis, along with the public service. So yes,

this one here is interesting. I don't think it's going to last. If it's below 20, really below 20, we haven't had below 20 since the population of Canada was 16 million people. Okay, it's now 41 million people. So is it going to stay there? I'd be really, really surprised if it's going to stay there. What I'm looking for is not just size. I'm looking for things like, is he going outside of the current Liberal caucus for cabinet members? We know now, we had an idea last week,

but we know now that he did try to reach outside of the Liberal Party. He did approach Jean Charest. He has approached some other people. I think he's approached some New Democrats and he's approached some progressive conservatives elsewhere as well. Are they going to make the leap now as cabinet ministers who don't have seats, or are they going to wait to run? That's the kind of thing that I'm looking for. I think the size now is transitory. This is going to be a kind of an election cabinet because it looks like we'll be in a campaign in 10 days from now.

Yes, they will have responsibilities, particularly those with the United States. But otherwise, it's one of those things. Remember when we were younger, there used to be a red box on a lot of the telephone poles that said, break this glass in case of fire and the fire guys will come in along. I think it'll be one of those cabinets. You'll go to them if you need them. Otherwise, you're not going to need them. They're a campaign cabinet. But I'll be looking for who are the outsiders that come in and what does it say if they're outside of the party? Well, you must be a lot older than I thought you were. Even I don't remember those red boxes. He was around and you don't. Well, they were everywhere. Many of them are still in old school buildings, by the way, and I know that I think I have a grandson

and once, okay, I'm not going there. I'm not going to get in trouble. And I could be wrong. So let's not do this and ruin someone's future at an early age. I'm going to, well, I am of the school of smaller cabinets. I don't believe that they should be smaller just for the duration of an election campaign to send a message or to put down an electoral or a special fire. say that I believe that this smaller version of cabinet will not disappear the day after the election if Mark Carney wins, that he will keep to a smaller cabinet at least for a while. I can't put a number on a while, but I would expect about a year and a half. Why do I believe smaller cabinets are important? Because the larger the cabinets, as we have seen, the less influential the body that is the cabinet actually is. That there are so many people around the table

who have segments of portfolios inside a real portfolio. We used to call them Secretary of State or Ministre d'Etat. And now, suddenly, they're a full-fledged minister in the same sense, by the way, if you're going to go for inflated language that the caucus critics in the Conservative Party have suddenly become shadow ministers, which over time I've come to believe means that we rarely hear from any of them, hence the shadow thing. But this particular cabinet is meant to send the message that this is kind of a war cabinet or a unity cabinet in the case of a referendum. A group of people, a team that will be focused on one main job. There will be other issues. There always are. But the main job is going to be Canada, U.S. and the economy. And for

that reason, the people who matter most are people who are already pretty much where they were before the shuffle. That would be the trio of ministers that have been on the front line of the Canada-US file. So, Dominique Leblanc, François-Philippe Champagne and Mélanie Joly. Interestingly enough, this morning, the leader of the Bloc Québécois is saying that the shuffle means that the only interests that will be really defended by this government are going to be Ontario interests. There's three names I named, two of them are from Quebec. I'm assuming they are not going to be going into this conversation or continuing it with the US to kind of say we're here to defend Mr. Ford who seems

to do a good enough job of defending himself. Jean Chagas, since he was mentioned, has turned down the overtures. That is not to say that he would not take a role. I'm sure like some others, he would really like to be our envoy to Washington. And he would find that more suited. But why do I also think Jean Chagall refused? I don't think it's out of love for the Conservative Party. I think it's because he already has a seat at the Canada-US table as part of the Canada-US Council. So why would he want a seat at cabinet that probably would be once removed

from the front line when he already has one on the front line and seems to be enjoying himself immensely in a professional way, dealing with this issue and being in the media. There are two people that seem to have gotten quite a shot in the arm from this debate. One of them is obviously Premier Ford, but the other one is former Premier Jean Charest. Both have more of a spring in their step now that this challenge has been thrown to Canada. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing for people to have purpose, but I think the message from today's cabinet is we are focused on an existential issue. And notwithstanding what the opposition will say, and that's fair game,

the existential issue is not the survival of the Liberal government in the election. It's the Canada-US file. Okay. You've brought up a lot of good things. I want to touch base on them. But first of all, let me tie the knot on this smaller versus bigger cabinet. Because I tend to agree with Chantel. If, in fact, Carney is able to win an election, I don't think he'll suddenly go to a bigger cabinet.

Even knowing full well and conceding, Rob, the points you make about why we end up with bigger cabinets, mainly for political reasons. But when you look at Mark Carney's background, which is not politics, wherever he's been, there hasn't been this big group around him. There have been smaller groups, whether it was the Bank of Canada, the Bank of England, or whether it's been in the private sector, he's used to a room that is much smaller in terms of the numbers in around him, advising him, taking part in the discussions and debates. So I just wonder whether he's more, perhaps more comfortable with something like that. But it's a big if, wondering what his second cabinet may look like, because he's got to get passed on election yet, and we're far from that having happened yet.

We may be close to it happening, but trying to assume what might happen in it is something else. Okay, I want to, you know, the number of things that Chantel raises, you know, whether it's this perception of we're going to have a war cabinet, or whether it's the whole Doug Ford, Mark Carney thing, the kind of good cop, bad cop, which seems to be developing with these two who clearly have a relationship. I mean, their buddy-buddy breakfast the other day

and the pictures they put out online certainly would seem to indicate that. No, it was the Carney people who put it online. We have to make a distinction there. There was a reason why they did that, but go ahead. But the Ford people didn't object. No, I'm sure they didn't. They didn't say, I'm sorry that this picture came out.

It was a big secret. Yeah. Well, you go, Rob. Tell me what you're thinking about this. Well, look, again, this is something that worries and irks the people around Pierre Poiliev. And they are concerned about it for a reason. Premier Ford just won a third successive majority mandate. He, right now, is riding high.

He has been friendly with liberals throughout Justin Trudeau's time in office. He holds sway. He's saying some very good things about Mr. Carney now. There are people who are not just irked about it, but they question the loyalty. It isn't loyalty. It's political calculus. It's always good for an Ontario premier to have a Liberal in Ottawa for all kinds of reasons, particularly in circumstances where the next prime minister is probably going to come in and have to look after

some very, very difficult times, times that are going to be tough on Ontario. And if there is going to be anybody wielding a rusty axe, and Mr. Poiliev has talked about swinging a cleaver, then that's not going to reflect well on the Premier of Ontario, who is a conservative. So it's smart politics for Mr. Carney. They didn't just have pictures. There was a guy holding a camera there, one of those handheld cameras that swept out gracefully, pulled back from the breakfast. It was beautifully lit, lovely shine, lovely focus. This was a campaign commercial, okay? And we are in the middle of a campaign. The campaign's already started. The Conservatives have got their headquarters up on the east end of Ottawa, a couple of kilometers away from me. That was a campaign commercial.

And it was a shot. It was a carny shot at the Conservatives. So a few points. If you don't remember 2019, Mr. Ford certainly does. 2019 is the year when Andrew Scheer is leader. And Mr. Ford is starting office premier, and is basically ordered to stay in his basement for the duration of the campaign to not even show up to federal conservative events in his own writing. So if I remember that, do you not think that Mr. Ford remembers it every single day of the week? Andrew Scheer happens to be very close to Pierre Poiliev. There was even a story recently that had him as a possible future finance minister for this country.

Do you really think that Mr. Ford is looking forward to spending a lot of time with Pierre Poiliev and Andrew Scheer over the next four years, the answer is a clear no. The glue of this relationship between Premier Ford and the federal government is Dominique Leblanc. They are the real buddies. They're like this. They smoke cigars together. They get along. They like being with each other. This is a premier who spoke about having evening conversations with his friend, Chrystia Freeland. So, this does translate. Well, for one, it's very useful to the federal government. Why? Because Ontario has, is the industrial and the economic engine of the country, the larger one. If the premier of Nova Scotia was called board and was doing all this, it wouldn't have the same impact in the US because

Nova Scotia, for all of its qualities, does not carry the weight that Ontario does. So to have the premier of the largest province with a majority mandate and four years ahead of him be in agreement with the federal government in articulating this strategy is actually a great thing for both governments, but probably a great thing for Canada, notwithstanding the fact that some premiers wake up sometimes in the morning wishing that Mr. Ford stayed in bed a bit longer. But it has consequences for the next election in a practical way. Premier Ford has instructed this caucus to not participate in the next federal campaign, to stay out of federal events, to keep their people away from the Poiliev campaign in Ontario.

And you know what? Most of them will actually obey that order. Why? Because Premier Ford is in a position to punish them or reward them on behavior. That includes ministers. So while he has said that he will not be taking a stance in the federal election, that you should translate into he will not be supporting Pierre Poiliev in the upcoming election campaign. Two things to keep in mind on that point is the Doug Ford conservatives and the Pierre Poliev conservatives are different. You know, Ford's conservatives are progressive conservatives,

the old PC party, you know, closer to the red Tory wing. That would be a stretch putting them all the way there, but they're closer to that, certainly than the Poliev wing. But second, and people who deny this do so at their peril, there is a strong degree of dislike between Polyev and Ford. Ford has not forgotten what Chantel just mentioned and other things that happened in that same time period. And that is a real looming problem for the federal conservatives in any election campaign. We'll see how it actually turns out, but it sits there as a real problem.

Can I just highlight why that's important if you look at polls? The polls show a tightening of the race, in some cases, neck and neck. But a lot of the polls, I'm thinking of the Leger poll, which had them almost neck and neck, the recent Leger. The Conservative Party of Canada is still ahead in the province of Ontario. And so if Mr. Ford can, if he doesn't come out and support Mark Carney, nobody's saying that, but if he can be kept on the sidelines, if the machine can be kept on the sidelines, then the Liberals have a chance to pick up some seats in Ontario they normally wouldn't get. Particularly now that the NDP numbers are down, that the Conservative Party of Canada was really counting on picking up some seats in union country in southwestern Ontario, southern Ontario, northern Ontario,

where the NDP vote is normally strong. If that NDP vote stays down like it is now, then it's a race between liberals and conservatives. And that's what the liberals want. That's the danger for conservatives in the province of Ontario. You know, as liberals may be excited about the Doug Ford positioning, it is extremely unlikely. In fact, I think we can wager the farm on this one. He's not going to come out and declare his support for Mark Carney. But not declaring his support for Pierre Polyev

could be just as damaging as the other. Let me get back to Carney. And Chantal, you start us on this one. Carney has said he's willing to talk to Trump when Trump shows some respect. What does he mean? The closest, I can't speak for Mr. Carney, who has given a few interviews over this leadership campaign and even fewer since he became leader.

I think this will be his first, maybe, or today would be his first Q&A with journalists on the occasion of the shuffle. But the more explicit comment that seemed to substantiate this expression was an interview where he explained that he is not going to be going to Mar-a-Lago to have, what is it, meat pie or whatever they were serving there. If he is going to meet Mr. Trump, it's going to be as the leader of a government meeting another government leader in a meeting room where those things happen. Now, I think that having watched what happened with President Zelensky, there is absolutely no

appetite to have Mark Kear Carney go and kiss the ring with people who treat their guests as if they were meeting thugs that are waiting to rob them, which is basically a setup that could be replicated for the Prime Minister of Canada. So I don't expect that Mark Carney is looking for an early meeting with Donald Trump in any way, shape or form. I think he wants to meet him when they have something other to discuss than his crazy musings about the annexation of Canada. Which is why that first foreign trip is, I think, very cleverly going to happen in France and the UK and not south of the border. Because if he goes south, there is only one thing he can do.

He has to meet the president or not go. And why I think it's a good idea is because this is a comfort zone for Mark Carney. He knows those players across the pond. He will get meetings easily, and it will showcase him in his job as prime minister just before he calls an election. So, yes, smart move. And there are many issues that Canada wants to discuss with both of the leaders of countries. Ukraine is one of those. It's not just economics and tariffs and, well, you come and support us and save us from Donald Trump if he wants to take us over. But I suspect, and I don't know this, but I suspect that ideally Mark Carney would like to meet Donald Trump for the first time as a prime minister with an electoral mandate in his pocket, and maybe not much before

the G7 in early June. The G7 offers that opportunity for Mr. Kearney to have as close to a command presence as he's going to have, because he'll be hosting the G7 in Kananaskis. Chantal is absolutely right. If elected. If he wins an election. That's right. Well, yes, I forgot there's an election happening imminently. We've called it.

Nobody else has, but I think it's going to happen. Look, the traditional trip often is to Washington. But can you imagine, can you imagine, Mr. Carney, having to sit in the same seat that Zelensky was sitting in with Lutnick on one side of him, J.D. Vance on the other, sitting beside Donald Trump? The risks are enormous. Mr. Trump loves to make his guests squirm, loves to go on and on about things that have nothing to do with the relationship while the guest sits there and waits, loves those who come to tug their forelock and to flatter him. And that can't be Mark Carney's style going in.

Not only does Mr. Carney know the players well in Europe, he endorsed Rachel Reeves as the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He served on her Economic Advisory Commission. So he knows the Labour Party very, very well. He and Macron get on exceedingly well. He's an admirer of Macron. I know Macron is in trouble right now, but he's an admirer of Macron. He's going to get a very warm welcome there.

Talk about campaign commercials. You know, they're going to be cutting commercials of this guy being welcomed in the capitals of the old world, and he'll be welcomed in style. These are, in many ways, kindred spirits. So, you want to look like a prime minister? You do that. You want to look like a supplicant or you want to risk being made to look like a supplicant? You go into Donald Trump's White House, where his fantasies of empire are not going to be on restraint. They're going to be on full display. As a matter of fact, I was amused to listen to Donald Trump twice this week talk about how Canada could keep its national anthem, which was very kind of him, Oh Canada, while remaining a great state. It reminded me of the wonderful Quebec comedian Yvan Deschamps, who used to say that what Quebecers really want was to have an independent Quebec inside of a strong and united Canada. It sounded like he was channeling Yvon Deschamps, which was crazy. But that's the kind of lunacy he'd be subjected to.

We've got to take a break. I said the other day on this program, and I still feel it, that to me showing respect would start with Trump calling the prime minister of Canada, the prime minister of Canada. And until he was willing to do that, instead of his, this governor 51st state stuff that Carney should just stay, stay away from it. Let LeBlanc do what LeBlanc does and Jolie do what Jolie does,

but don't get into it. Stay away from it. To me, that's showing respect, but we'll see. Anyway, we will be back right after this, because there's lots more to talk about on Good Talk this week. And welcome back. You're listening to Good Talk for this Friday. Chantelle Hebert, Rob Russo here in the house.

I'm Peter Mansbridge. You're listening on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform, or you're watching us on our YouTube channel. And whatever platform you choose, we're glad to have you with us. You both mentioned this European trip. The Prime Minister, the new Prime Minister, is set to board the Canadian plane and head over to Europe, at least to Britain and France. It wouldn't shock me in the slightest if he pops up in Kiev as well, for all the reasons

that are kind of obvious as to why that would be probably a smart play in his first week in the job and just before an election campaign is called. But if that's going to happen, it certainly hasn't been announced that way. It's interesting to watch. You mentioned the G7, Rob, but there's also the meeting that took place just over the last few days between foreign ministers from the different G7 countries that kind of sets up the Kananaskis agenda. It was interesting to watch the number of other participants

who turned up, who know Melanie Joly, who was the number of other participants who turned up, who know Melanie Jolie, who was the host of this conference, who know her well from past meetings, but they were wearing Canada pins. They were saying the right things. We have your back. All things that haven't been kind of obviously said in the past few months by Canada's allies. Does that make a difference?

Do you think the sight of that, the hearing that makes a difference? And Rob, you start. I think I'd be more inclined to think it was significant if their leaders started to say things like what President Trump is saying about Canada is unacceptable when it comes to an ally and a loyal friend of the United States. I'm not hearing that yet. I'm hearing a lot of biting of tongues, and I'm hearing a lot of people in foreign embassies here in Ottawa say things like we have allies, but we also have interests, our own interests, our own economic interests. I note that the EU, Australia and some other countries have not decided to respond immediately to Mr. Trump's tariffs like Canada has. They're watching Canada. They're learning from Canada's, I think, more pugnacious posture when it comes to responding to the terrorists, because unlike them, we respond immediately. We signal that we're going to respond. We respond immediately. They're trying to learn from it. They're consulting Canada, but they're reluctant to go beyond, quite frankly, what is flattery often in their dealings with Donald Trump and with his administration.

And they recognize, they say, yeah, it's kind of crazy down there when you talk to diplomats. You listen to Howard Lutnick, and it's difficult to discern a difference between Howard Lutnick and those around Kim Jong-il. Howard Lutnick has given Mr. Trump the powers to see around corners, see through walls, superpowers. I expect to hear that Donald Trump has birdied all 18 of the holes symbolic things when I hear the leaders saying that what Mr. Trump is doing to Canada is unacceptable. And I haven't heard it yet. There is some keeping powder dry until that April 2nd general tariff round, which is actually just around the corner. So it's really hard to assess the EU's response until this happens and to see what will happen then. But as for, and I'm like Rob, I'm not very impressed by the Canada fence and the wearing white or red or whatever suits you to show something that you don't want to talk about.

I'm sure that Denmark has thoughts about these very polite responses to threats to territorial integrity and has found that its allies in Europe are very discreet in their support. But as for Mr. Letnick, I'm convinced that if things keep going south in the U.S. with the economy, with markets, with approval numbers, that the person who will be thrown overboard is going to be Letnick. That at some point, if Donald Trump thinks this is really going badly, he's going to find someone to point the finger to and guess who's in the crosshairs of that irrational decision to blame the guy who can't get a hearing from his boss to do things that would keep matters in check. So I see him increasingly when I see those interviews, I think he's speaking to his boss. He's literally saying, boss, you'll never have someone who has your back

more than I do. I'm willing to make a fool of myself every single day, many times a day to hang on to my job. I don't think it's going to save his job. But I'm sure you guys must have seen it this morning on social media, this incredible meeting, town hall of a Republican senator with his constituents. Not only was this guy taken to task over Canada, Greenland, the tone, humiliation of Zelensky. And this wasn't some suit and tie, I'm a political science major from some university that is too woke. It was the opposite. It was someone that if you only saw him at first, you would think this is someone who is open, certainly, or part of the audience that Donald Trump wants. But what struck me about the scenes on social media was not what he was saying. It was the reaction of the rest of the people in the room to what he was saying. It was the reaction of the rest of the people in the room

to what he was saying. They were cheering him on as he was going on the attack against his elected representative over what has been happening and the way the Trump administration has been treating its allies, its friends. It was quite something to watch. But if I were a strategist for Mr. Trump, I would find that even more disquieting than what's been happening to the markets. I think you're absolutely bang on on that. And, you know, it's funny. I was on an American talk show this week.

I guess they couldn't find Chantel or she was busy and booked up so that you know they can't speak english yeah they can't pronounce my name they they called me and um they wanted they were really intrigued by the doug ford thing because he's done lots of television there and the the question to me, do you think he's getting through to Trump or Ludnick? And I said, actually, you know, I'm not so sure that's his target. I think his target is the American people because they're not hearing the news. They're not getting the news about what's at play with tariffs.

He's talking to them. He's giving them the experience that he's seeing in his province and that they should get ready for it because they're going to see in their states. And so his target was the American people as opposed to the American politicians. You know, obviously he's dealing with the politicians as well, but his real target is the people. And it's starting, as you said, watching that town hall stuff, it's starting to happen. It's starting to happen.

It's starting to happen in the key states, which are mostly red states, Trump states, and that can be incredibly damaging. The one thing I'll say, though, is there's no evidence yet from Trump that any of this is registering. He just keeps doubling down, as he did yesterday. I'm never going to change my mind. What? I'm backing off. He did have some kind things to say about Ford. I think Ford

and Trump, if they ever got in the same room, would get along quite well. They're two aging guys with faux flaxen hair populists. That's who they are. Mr. Ford has said that he kind of supported Trump until Trump put the ship in Canada, and then it was in politic to support Donald Trump. And it clearly, if you listen to what Trump said,

while he was perusing which Tesla he was going to buy, there were a lineup of Teslas on the front of the West Wing of the White House. He said some kind things about Mr. Ford. Of course, 24 hours later, he said that he brought Mr. Ford to his knees very, very quickly. But the two of them speak the same language. And so I, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if they got on. The thing about the hearing that's on social media that you guys were talking about earlier, I think it is significant. It is important, but it is important also to note that that was in Asheville, North

Carolina. North Carolina is, did go red, and that hearing does have a Republican, but that's one of the most liberal parts of North Carolina, highly educated, moneyed, got hit very, very hard in the storm. And that was one of the reasons why they opted for a Republican, the hurricane late last year. But that's a pretty Democratic normally part of North Carolina and doesn't represent the other parts of the state, which are very Republican. Okay. So what are you saying? It doesn't matter? No, I'm saying that that's not necessarily representative. I think it is important. I think it's noteworthy that a Republican congressman got roughed up. And I think what's more noteworthy is that he said that he disagreed with Trump on that, although he agreed with Trump on Ukraine.

If you watch that all the way through, he said that we need to get something back from Ukraine. In other words, minerals, critical minerals. But he didn't think that it was right for Mr. Trump to go after Canada and Panama, a couple of allies like that. I'm saying we shouldn't take too much in terms of the people in that crowd because that's normally a pretty liberal Democratic part of North Carolina. Do you think the, just to tie the knot on this part of the conversation, do you think that the end of the Trudeau era, and clearly Trudeau and Trump never got along,

and that relationship only got worse as time moved on, there was never a kind of calming of it. Do you think the end of the Trudeau era and the emergence of a new era, whether it's Carney or eventually Polyev, will signal in the immediate term some calming of the waters on this issue between Canada and the U.S. I understand tariffs is a much bigger issue for Trump globally. It's not just a Canada thing. But the Canada relationship has really gone into the sewer and there are more and more people raising questions about it south

of the border. Do you think this is an opportunity that exists for Trump to calm the waters. No, is there an opportunity? But whether it's going to be ceased, I very much doubt. Basically, Donald Trump has resurrected Justin Trudeau in the dying days of his prime ministership. There was an interesting poll in the US this week, last week, that the question was, which foreign leader do you appreciate the most? And they had a list. And guess who came on top? The most appreciated foreign leader in the US is called Justin Trudeau, followed by UK France in that order. So up to a point, I don't know what Donald Trump will do.

You don't know. I mean, it's like having a baby that doesn't yet sleep through the night. Maybe tonight, maybe not. Who knows? But one thing I do know is that Pierre Poiliev and Mark Carney have both understood that their standing in Canada does not rest on having a good relationship with Donald Trump or finding common ground on Ukraine or finding common ground on tariffs, which would only involve us giving up stuff and not the opposite. So, I'm not sure that the stars are aligning for our political leaders to actually want to have a good relationship with this person. Rob, I think that there's no doubt that the relationship between Mr. Trudeau and Mr. Trump was drowning in bile. Now that that bile has been drained between those two men,

does that mean that either Mr. Carney or Mr. Poiliev have a chance to start anew? Just based on Donald Trump's history, it all depends on the alacrity and the ardor with which his interlocutor will leap into his lap and nuzzle him in the ear. If you don't flatter this guy, you don't get anywhere with him, which is why Lutnik does the Mutt and Jeff routine with him every time he comes out. So it doesn't matter. Countries have interests. The U.S. interests now seem to be to reindustrialize and to get money into their coffers. Canada's interest is to safeguard its independence and sovereignty, its prosperity as well. I imagine it'll take hours for the relationship, for the personal relationship to curdle if they have a conversation.

And apparently Mr. Carney and Mr. Trump are supposed to have a conversation shortly after he's sworn in. Both sides have kind of signaled that that's happening. I expect it to be civil the first few times. I expect it to have some acid dipdipped barbs from Donald Trump. He operates that way. That's his MO. There'll be gentle jibes, but there'll be acid on the jibes as well. And the first federal leader who goes and flatters Donald Trump in public

and does all the acts that Rob has been describing, for which my vocabulary in English fails, is the moment that federal leader loses the election. There is no tolerance in Canada for a flattery moment between Pierre Poiliev and Donald Trump, or between and or associates, or between Mark Carney and Donald Trump and associates. Even watching Premier Ford yesterday after the meeting with Letnick gush on about how it was productive with nothing to show for it except another meeting kind of made you uncomfortable at this point. As in, is he just saying that because that's the way you have

to operate? Then you try to cast Pierre Poiliev or Mark Carney in that role saying these things and you knew this would be bad for them in the election campaign if they ever did that. I don't think it's an accident that in this case, the federal ministers allowed Doug Ford to have the first kick at speaking at the media before they materialized in front of cameras some while later, not five minutes later. I think they didn't want to be the ones doing the or leading the, oh, this was so productive and then being asked. So what got accomplished? And the answer, obviously, is nothing got accomplished.

And even if something had, there is no reason to believe that Donald Trump would have gone along with whatever would have been agreed to. Okay. I've got to take our final break. Before I do, a quick one to each of you, and I mean quick. Complete this picture for me. Mark Carney's standing outside 10 Downing Street with Keira Starmer taking questions and a photo op for their meeting, and the same thing then happens in Paris with Macron.

And somebody yells out the question Mr. Prime Minister speaking to Starmer do you how do you feel about the U.S. intentions to try to annex Trump's intentions try and annex Canada as the 51st state what does he get as an answer? Well, his answer should be, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be, that the prosperity of all three countries, the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United States depends on open and fair trade between all of them.

We all have our interests. We all have our faults and vulnerabilities. All of us are going to work towards that. Canada is a great and independent contributor to peace and prosperity around the world. And we would like to see that continue and we expect it to continue. Yeah, that's probably the UK's response

because it's kind of soft and kind of tries to blend the edges at the corner. And we would like, yeah, right. We would like the candidate to remain sovereign. Great. I expect a formal response from Emmanuel Macron, who has two audiences in this country. The Canadian audience at large, but also the Quebec audience that will be scrutinizing whatever he has to say because of the relationship between the two.

Quebecers, as you may have noticed, have been among the most likely to cancel trips to the U.S., boycott U.S. products. Although I saw a picture of customs at Pearson Airport at the end of the Ontario March break, an empty custom hall. I was struck by how much Ontarians had managed to change their holiday plans for the March break. Okay, we're going to take our final break back right after this. And welcome back. Peter Mansbridge here, along with Chantal Hébert and Rob Russo.

The final segment of Good Talk for this week is right ahead. Don't forget the buzz comes out tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. Eastern time. You can subscribe at nationalnewswatch.com slash newsletter. It costs nothing. It's sort of my take on things that have happened in the past seven days. Okay, we closed out that last segment by really, you know, talking about how Canadians feel about this.

And I think there's been some degree of surprise about how uniform it is across the country. Kind of a united feeling, very upset about what our closest friends are saying and are doing to us as Canadians as a result of this tariff war and as a result, a lot because of the attitude that Donald Trump has taken towards Canada. And I want to, you know, when Chantal talks about the empty customs hall at Pearson Airport, and you know, I've seen that too.

We've seen it in stores, the sort of bi-Canadian, but not only bi-Canadian, taking the next step as well, as I talk now of how many Canadians are literally turning things over in stores that are made in the United States. Talk to me about what we're witnessing here in our own country. Forget about the politics of it all. Just in terms of the ordinary citizen. I've seen it in the letters that come in here.

I know you two have seen it in different conversations you've had. This is unlike anything we've ever seen before. We've talked about that a little bit over the past few weeks. But talk to me about where your head is at now in terms of the way Canadians are responding on this story. Who wants to go first here? We've got a couple of minutes left anyway. So you've got, I'm going to speak about what I see around me. I've never heard so many people spend so little time talking to me

about Quebec politics and so much time talking about Canada-US politics and what's happening federally. Big things have happened on the provincial front over the past month, as they have in other provinces. Stories that would have lasted two, three, four days that died hours before, after they emerged, overtaken by this issue. Léger Poll this week is down to 29%, which is one of the lowest level of support for sovereignty that we've seen in decades. And that is not because people are renouncing the idea of a sovereign Quebec as much as saying this is not a good time to talk about this. We are into something where we need to be focusing on the larger picture, and the larger picture involves dealing with the Americans. Now, I will also say about what I've noticed in Quebec, which I found interesting. Quebec, as you know, has seen this before. Twice it has watched head offices shut down, companies leave,

and twice it has emerged eventually on its feet. So, yes, there is a lot of anger and there is a lot of concern. But at some point of all of the regions in the country, possibly the one that has seen these kinds of things happen before and that says when this happens, you just kind of get your act together and do what you need to do and find other ways to resuscitate your economy, do it differently. This is one place where there has been experience with that and with the cost

of what all of this will bring. And I found that really interesting. People aren't complaining about the rest of Canada or whatever the federal government is doing. They're just carrying on because that's what you do? Rob? You know, it's heartwarming in many, many ways. You know, my parents came here from the old world, and I listened to them talk about the old world, and then listened to them talk about Canada. And it sounds, and we've had a lot of immigration since then. You speak to newer Canadians, and the rest of us who've been here our whole lives are beginning to sound like them. There is a sense of appreciation. Our eyes are now open to some of the things that we've always had that we haven't always appreciated.

A sense of appreciation and wonder for Canada, for our safety, our security. Having lived in the United States, I had to ask when my kids were going on a play date, do you have guns? Are the guns locked up? Those are not the kinds of conversations we have here in Canada when you do that. There's a sense of appreciation that's growing for the wonder and the beauty of the place. Why? Because people are canceling vacations in the United States and elsewhere, and they're going to the Rockies. My daughter knows somebody who's going to go to Halifax for the first time. So there's this sense of appreciation, not just for what's above ground, for underground. We now are realizing just what our power is.

Why is Donald Trump interested in annexing us? Because we have things that the rest of the world wants. And water is one of those things. We have to appreciate what a precious resource, fresh water, is going to be in this century. As well as oil and gas. Absolutely. Somebody like Mark Carney, one of the questions I asked him is, what would you advise somebody when he was at Brookfield about wanting to invest in the oil sands? And he said, the oil sands are an attribute.

We have to understand that. And so there's a sense of appreciation for what's above ground, what's underground, what's around us that I haven't seen for a long, long time in Canada. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. You know, one of the things I wonder is when we're going to get a sense from some official forum of the impact what Canadians have been doing, you know, not buying American or just buying Canadian or not going on holidays. At some point, we're going to see the data on that,

see the figures, see the numbers. And there's every indication that we're going to be startled by them, that they're much more dramatic than we may have thought. Anyway, we'll see about that. We'll see when those kind of statistics come out. Have a look at Air Canada's sales to sun destinations in the US. Okay. The prices on tickets, it's

because nobody's going to Florida. Nobody's going to Arizona. Nobody's going. People aren't going. That's an indication right there. We're in the middle of March break season still and people are not going to Florida. Okay. Let's leave it to that for this week.

Next week, we'll bring a whole new parade of stories to talk about. Chantel, Rob, thank you so much. Always great to hear from both of you. And thank you for listening. We'll be back on Monday with Dr.

Janice Stein, of course, and her latest take on things on the foreign affairs front. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks for listening. Talk to you again soon.