The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Guilty - Smoke Mirrors and The Truth

Episode Date: April 21, 2021

Two stories dominate today -- the guilty verdicts in Minneapolis yesterday and what they could mean for the future.  And in Canada the budget, was there really something to shake loose the billions sitting with investors on the sidelines that could jumpstart the economy?

Hello there, I'm Peter Mansbridge. It's Wednesday, that means smoke, mirrors, and the truth with Bruce Anderson. Like you, I have been so grateful and so thankful for frontline workers during the COVID crisis. Let's just talk about the frontline workers at SickKids, which is one of the world's best children's hospitals. SickKids doctors also work behind the scenes on incredible breakthroughs to help our kids and generations to come. Listen to their inspiring stories in a new season of the popular podcast called Sick Kids Versus. Each episode explores a major Sick Kids discovery, like, well, a virus-fighting super molecule or a cure for hard-to-treat cancers. Just visit sickkidsfoundation.com slash podcast or search SickKidsVS and spell versus VS. So SickKidsVS. You'll be amazed at Guilty.

That word rang across not just the United States, but across the world yesterday when the Minneapolis police officer charged in the murder, the murder of George Floyd last summer, was found guilty on all three counts. And that set off a lot of reaction around the world, a lot of kind of exhaling going on, because I think so many people, given so many years of watching similar situations,

returning acquittals for police officers, a lot of people just didn't believe that it was going to happen. But it happened. And it couldn't have happened in a more definitive way. Last summer, we talked any number of times about how we were in a moment. Last summer was a moment. It wasn't caused by reaction from politicians to the George Floyd death

they were basically irrelevant people had long passed the thoughts and prayers reactions of politicians on events like that and they were looking elsewhere the moment was caused in my view by a couple of things.

It was caused by people power, the strength of people demonstrating and protesting all over the United States, for the most part peacefully, but not just the U.S. It was happening in Canada, it was happening in Europe. There were protests all around the world. So that was a significant factor in the moment. But to me, the biggest cause of the moment

was the reaction of professional sports in the United States. I really believe that. And especially basketball. I mean, it had started a number of years ago with Colin Kaepernick and the NFL and full credit due to him. But if the NBA hadn't taken the actions that it did last summer,

which was basically stopping everything, just like they'd done on COVID, and pushed the limits of their power at that point, forced governments into shutting things down on COVID. But the same thing happened, you know, in the middle of their kind of playoff season. Things stopped. Players demanded it. Players wore special uniforms with slogans. They still have them. And other sports leagues did similar things. Even hockey, which has always traditionally been a very white sport,

even hockey stopped for a couple of days and held rallies of players. But it was basketball that was the leading edge of the moment last summer. But with any moment, the question is, how long will it last? Well, the next significant part of the moment was going to be the trial and the verdict.

We've reached that moment. But the moment doesn't end with that verdict. The moment doesn't end until black lives truly matter. So what happens now, and you saw President Biden trying to push people in that direction last night. But it's been, I'll say this, in terms of moments, we've all witnessed them in our lives on different issues. Moments tend to often only last that, a moment. This one's longer.

And let's hope it keeps going, that it is longer and real change is affected. But just to see the looks on the faces of so many of those people who were in the streets yesterday, the moment at which the verdict came down, it was quite something. So that's my opening rant on this, Bruce. I got more to say, but obviously um so do you so what did you think well I was felt like it was a very powerful moment I knew that or at least I

had the sense from what I'd heard Peter that there was going to be an announcement of the verdict yesterday and yesterday afternoon. And I was surprised, but not surprised that in a way that my mind just kept on going to it all afternoon. And so I started, you know, I just turned on the television and I kept an eye out because I wanted to be focused on it in the moment when that verdict was announced. And even though in the period of time since Lloyd was murdered, so much else has happened, so much else has preoccupied us. We've been kind of focused on the pandemic and everything related to it. But the subject really brought me back and unfortunately or fortunately or both as I was watching one of the networks prepared

to show the announcement of the verdict, I saw the nine minutes during which the policeman killed George Floyd. And I found it so shocking again to see it. And I know that a lot of people have found it quite triggering and difficult to watch, and so they should. But like you, I'm at least somewhat more hopeful that this is part of a watershed moment it's not just one thing but we've been watching a watershed shift I think the the nature of the shift is likely to be

permanent but I even hesitate to say that because there will be black people killed by police for a long time to come, probably. These kinds of things don't solve themselves overnight. At least we hear people talking now about Black Lives Matter in the same way that, as you and I might remember when we were younger, people talked about the women's liberation movement. It was a giant social phenomena that, and we're two guys talking about this, so I hesitate to say transformed the world because there are still lots of areas of inequity for women. That having been said, it did change the trajectory of the conversation from what we would have experienced in the 40s and the 50s

to what has come since. And hopefully Black Lives Matter is starting to achieve that kind of dynamism in society. One of the reasons you mentioned sports, and i think you're right that that's a that's an important landscape change because sports is a kind of a for america especially maybe a defining cultural phenomena it's how americans kind of get together to revel in the things that they enjoy whether it's college football or major league baseball or basketball. And so it does matter that sports has shifted. But the other change that I think that's been important is corporations. Not because businesses necessarily set the agenda for the public, but sometimes the public sets the agenda for businesses. And so when we think about the way that boards of directors and investors are talking about issues like diversity and inclusion now, and the way in which they relate to incidents like this, there's not much, there's no room, there's no daylight between them and the kind of the, we've got to stop this problem.

We've got to stand up on this issue. We've got to speak out. Most of the major corporations that I've had a look at are pretty unified and clear in the position that they're taking. And certainly the movement of the major league baseball all-star game from Georgia based on the, the voting laws there was one of those things. And the last thing I'll say is that I wouldn't use the word credit, but more progress on this issue owes something to how horrible Donald Trump was on it. He forced America to stare almost at its shame as it relates to race.

It's always been part of America's problem. And I don't say that thinking Canada doesn't have its own version of that, especially with indigenous people. We do. But America's had a giant problem with race for a long time. Sometimes it's more visible and sometimes it's less visible. But under Trump's leadership, it became really visible. And he basically tried to profit politically from those divisions. And that, I think, caused people to stare at, like they were looking at the worst aspects of their body politic in a mirror, a full length mirror, and they were naked to it.

And I think it's changed the way a lot of people have thought about it. And watching some of the streeters coming after the verdict was announced in Minneapolis yesterday, I saw a lot of people, a lot of white people, expressing a lot of relief about the decision. And not just a relief that there was no violence that was about, all right, we can't be caught in these situations anymore. We can't involve ourselves in these situations anymore. We need to change. So I'm hopeful, but with that caveat. You know what? I find interesting.

I kind of mentioned it earlier, but when you go through that, I totally agree with you on the Trump factor in all this. But I also feel pretty strongly that the politicians, aside from that issue, the politicians were irrelevant on this. What's happened since last summer to use this moment to affect change with hope for the future future the real change will come has been as a result of of of people and sports and you're quite correct big corporations taking the lead they they all seem to like they've given up waiting for government to do something

um that the politicians racked by the polarization that exists today in America, and not just America, has brought things on major change to a standstill. And if something's going to happen, it's going to happen outside of that arena. And I think, you know, we've witnessed that happen. Listen, I'm also glad that you that you mentioned the indigenous situation because there's you know there's a lesson here the moment that was created last summer through the death of george floyd was not just a moment about black lives matter it it It was a signal to us that lives of minorities matter. And in our country, the indigenous issue, which has plagued us since our inception,

and which in many ways is still there, needs action. I mean, I have mixed feelings, and we'll get to it in a minute, on the budget, the Canadian budget, the federal budget. But they plowed, at a time of plowing big bucks into a lot of things, they plowed big bucks into the Indigenous issue. $18 billion doesn't sound like much when you're talking about a debt of $1.5 trillion and a deficit of over $100 billion. But $18 billion is a lot of one and a half trillion and you know a deficit of over a hundred billion but 18 billion is a lot of money used properly things can happen there for god's sake maybe they'll

finally clean up the water situation now i i believe the the current minister is a guy who really wants to do something, Miller. But this moment includes a lot of things, and it does include the situation in our own country. Yeah, absolutely it does. And it's always been a little bit divisive, that subject in Canada. But in my estimation, it's less divisive than it used to be. And one of the reasons for it, and I think we see it in the U.S. and in other political cultures as well, is that generation change is pushing an agenda of equality. That your children and my children grew up understanding that it was wrong to discriminate.

It grew up in a culture that still had discrimination evident in it. And their experience of it was different from mine growing up. I'm not suggesting my family was saying, you know, discrimination is okay, but I think that the political culture of the time, there was a lot of it. And some of it was soft and some of it was not considered all that noticeable or in some cases objectionable in the eyes of people at the time. But when you look back at it now, I happened to be watching something on YouTube the other day, and it was a thing about Frank Sinatra and about Sammy Davis Jr.

And the piece talked about how Frank Sinatra was one of the leading voices for better treatment of Black performers. And at the same time, the piece showed footage of how he and Dean Martin dealt with Sammy Davis. And it was quite clearly, by today's reckoning, racist. And there was a lot of criticism post-Hawke, not so much at the time. So anyway, what I'm saying is that generational context is something that we're all familiar with now in this context of a cancel culture conversation, which I don't really buy into. I kind of feel like, look, we can look back and say we did some things that were racist and wrong, and we must never do them again. And we need to do that if we want to continue to encourage younger generations to grow up with

those values and to have them believe us in terms of our value system. We need to acknowledge which things were wrong, which isn't to say to demonize everything or everybody that lived in a time earlier, but just to acknowledge the change. So on Indigenous people in Canada, I do believe younger people are part of the movement towards more equitable treatment. And I say that because I also see it in terms of their attitudes towards LGBTQ groups in society. They pushed society along younger generations and in this trajectory. And I think they'll continue to do it. And I hope they continue to do it.

I hope you're right. I'm not quite there yet where you are. I believe strongly that you're right about the generational shift that's been going on on a lot of issues. You can go from climate change to the role of certain groups within our society, but I still want to see it on the Indigenous file because, you know, I grew up with this and I witnessed it firsthand and I still see it. And I worry that we're not dealing with it in a way that we could.

And, you know, I'm hopeful of this initiative and the budget. I hope it actually goes somewhere. I hope it's not one of these things that we sort of refer back to five years ten years now and say well you know it was in the budget but they you know they didn't really deliver on it or the money got wasted or whatever um i i hope there's something i hope there's something real there um there was lots in that budget. And as a result, we're going to talk about it next, right after this. Are you still trying to find ways to get into the world of crypto? Well, look no further.

Bitbuy is Canada's number one platform for buying and selling Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitbuy has launched a brand new app and website with a new look, lower fees, and new coins. Bitbuy is your one-stop shop to get involved and super easy to use for beginners. Visit bitbuy.ca or download the Bitbuy app. Enter referral code PODCAST20 to get $20 free when you make your first deposit. Okay, we have a historic moment this week with Chrystia Freeland becoming the first woman finance minister, first female finance minister with a budget in Canada. So that's the history of the moment in terms of that side of things, but it was historic on another side. It was an enormous budget, you know, 700 plus pages, lots of billions of dollars being scattered around in different places,

including extending some of the pandemic relief programs, which will come as relief to a lot of people and businesses who were benefiting from those. But there was lots more in that budget. And for a budget of that kind of spending, here was one of my thoughts. You recall the interview we did with Justin trudeau a couple of weeks ago and one of the questions i asked him was does the pandemic in a you know in a way give you an

opportunity to not only redesign how budgets are done but tackle some kind of big projects some big some big thinking going on. Now, some people have said, well, the whole childcare thing is that. And to a degree it is. It's been kicking around for 30 years, you know, in terms of whether or not this was actually going to happen. So there's no doubt that's, you know, a big project. But was it sort of the big think,

the big thinking for the economy in general in terms of where the country is and where it's going? And that I'm not so sure of. I always have trouble with budgets, not like you, Bruce, who studies these things and probably could actually repeat all 700 pages from memory already. I could sing it. I composed a tune.

I could sing it to that. You'd probably hum it while you're out there working on the radishes in the field there. There's nothing more fun than that. I bet, especially now that it's cold again. There's snow here in Stratford today like it's unbelievable anyway um I digress thank you for worrying about the radishes I'm worried about them too but yeah carry on Peter let's well I mean that that sort of is my point my point is

where's the big think or do you know mean, I thought we needed a big think. I know some liberals thought there was a need for a big think, and I'm not sure we see it there. So I'm wondering what you think. Or was this just not the time for a big think, a new change, a new way of looking at the Canadian economy and moving forward on fronts like, on fronts like that. I know there's the childcare thing.

I know there's action for climate change, but is there, is there more than that? Yeah, it's interesting, Peter, to hear your comments on that. And, and one of the things that I was thinking about is that I was so happy to have a giant piece of public policy that wasn't exclusively about the pandemic, that was the product of a bunch of people whose lives revolve around identifying challenges and opportunities and coming up with public policy to try to to try to help move the country forward um and i thought that there was a lot of meat in this

and i and i feel like one of the challenges for me for you for everybody is that we live in a time where we want a 10 minute later. In fact, we don't even wait for it to be fully read before everybody's telling us what's missing in it. What's wrong about it. What's not going to work. That's our job. That's what we're supposed to do.

We're supposed to like pick up that document, flip through the pages and say, hey, where's this? And I'm kind of like, well, I just want to take a little bit of time and look in it and say, what's in it that's interesting? And why are some of the ideas that are in it shaped the way that they are? Because it's been a long time since I worked um in government like a very very long time but i do know people in mackenzie king wasn't it it was a king that you used to advise yes okay so i'm sorry i was i thought you were older but sound wrong yeah 52 so so when i look

at it i kind of go, well, you know what? They put their minds to some particular issues and I'm not going to try to laundry list them because I actually want more time to digest the budget and kind of think it through. But they took a look at students and they took a look at student debt and young people's opportunities. And as you know, from our earlier conversations, that's something I care about a lot. And when we had Benjamin Tal on, I remember that's kind of how we finished that conversation with him, with him saying, we need to do something for young people. We need to help them pick the right path. We need to make it easier for them to pick the right path. We need to recognize that that first job that they get is a seminally important job in their future trajectory. And so we need help. And I saw a lot that I was really interested in there, the shape of the way in which they came

at student debt so that they capped the amount that you would have to pay in your early years of of working um i thought was clever it wasn't the same it wasn't um kind of a blunt instrument the sort of which uh jagmeet singh offered and i'm not being critical of singh's uh idea i remember saying thank god he put that on the table because I think it probably did catalyze the government to look at it and say, yeah, we better do something if only to protect our political flank. But I don't think that's the only reason they did it. I think basically they looked at it and said, OK, well, what's the smarter way as far as we're concerned to do this? And I like their idea. I like things that might seem

kind of on the margins in terms of the scale, but all of the young people who can now be hired to train small and medium businesses in technology applications, it's taking advantage of that younger generation's knowledge and skill set with technology and saying, we're going to make it easier for you to add that technological expertise and catalyst to all of these small and medium businesses. I think that's a really interesting idea. So for me, I'm very happy about the childcare aspect of this. I know that there's knitting to do with the provinces,

but I really feel like this has been a long time coming and, and very important. And I'm happy about the climate stuff and I'm happy about the indigenous supports, but a lot of these other ideas that I see in there I think are, are interesting and they're kind of well considered. We'll see how they all work. And the last thing I will say is that, you know, sometimes some people criticize the government for the idea of picking winners and others will criticize the government for not

doing enough to pick winners and decide on a very specific industrial strategy. And I think what the government tried to do with this budget by putting more money into the strategic initiatives kind of umbrella is to say, we don't really want to pick the winners, but we want to provide the funding support for winners to access and emerge and grow and succeed. So it's a little bit of a halfway measure. And I think that's probably, I think that's probably proved to be a reasonably useful tool in the past.

And I look forward to seeing if it, if it continues to play that role and maybe has a bigger impact going forward. But I think ultimately the government was sort of in this situation of we can't only talk about the future of the economy we need to talk about how we're going to help people for the next six months nine months whatever it takes and and so i think that's probably why it felt like two budgets in one a lot of stuff to get through let me just try this on you uh in the run-up to the budget, we heard from, as you said, Benjamin Tal at the CIBC World Markets,

and we've seen other economists talk about it, and we've seen government talk about it. All the money, the billions of dollars that's kind of sitting on the sidelines on the part of private investors, businesses, big corporations that have the potential to invest. And I'm assuming that they were all looking at this very closely in terms of, okay, what's in here that would suggest to me that we're ready, it's time now to invest. Because obviously governments need that if this is going to work.

Because it's not just their power, their spending. It's going to be the power of all those billions sitting on the sidelines that are going to encourage new jobs, that are going to help pay for all the new social spending, all of that. So if you're one of those big investors or big corporations, and you've been sitting on the sidelines, what do you see there that says, okay, this is the moment. This is our moment. Let's go. Well, I guess I think that probably for some of them the moment won't come until the pandemic is more fully extinguished um so i think the policy framework is helpful uh but it's only

going to it's the the growth will really only be catalytic once people think the economy is not going to open and shut and open and shut and open and shut, which has been the experience obviously of the last year. But I do think that the long-term investors are looking at the fundamental policy pillars in Canada. And so they could either look at Canada and say, it's debt is getting out of control. It's too left wing. It's too interventionist. It's too focused on regulation. We're not going to invest there. The other thing that they might say is that it doesn't have scale and it doesn't have technology and it doesn't have universities that we think are up to the task that we need, that sort of thing. Or they could

look at Canada and say, its population base is kind of small, but they're accelerating support for immigration. They want more people to come in. They're making it easier for businesses to come in and grow here. They're putting in place a kind of a competitive dynamic around a low-carbon economy to match what or to be in line with what Joe Biden is doing in the United States and what most major companies are saying is how they want to live their corporate lives in the future. They want to invest in places where there's a reward for being a low carbon company. There are other things like our role in the minerals and metals marketplace in the world, where a lot of people may not be familiar with the fact that a lot of the new technologies,

whether it's our phones or our solar panels or our wind turbines, they require a certain type of mineral and metals that Canada has in abundance. And so we've actually negotiated a relationship with the United States where we together look for ways to help fill the supply chains that the major companies in the world need. And so there was references to that in this budget as well as a competition really with China, which is the other big player in the critical minerals business. So I think that, oh, and the last thing I would say is that because we have a relatively small labor force and because the nature of the labor force that companies want to hire in the future is male and female, child care, good child not going to solve the housing price problem in the short term. But we are going to, because we have space, if we increase broadband availability and accessibility, we're going to find people living in different parts of this country in the future,

companies locating in different parts of this country. And so I think on the whole, the government is kind of pushing towards a model that says we're a good place to invest in, even though, and I think this is an important point, this is a very progressive budget. And so it leaves a lot of room for conservatives to criticize it. But it's also a progressive budget because two out of three Canadians kind of identify as progressives. And so that's the, you know, the constant dilemma for both conservatives and I guess for progressives because progressives splinter into three or four parties. But this version of a progressive budget, it doesn't look like is scaring off businesses.

We haven't heard a lot of trenchant criticism about it from an investment standpoint and i think the government's probably got to look at that and say that's not a bad day's work so far yeah i'm glad you mentioned the opposition because you know they've had a bad run here, the Conservatives, for the last while, and it's showing in all the numbers that you see. The opposition's role is to oppose, by the very nature of the word. But also, you know, part of opposing is demanding accountability. And part of opposing and demanding accountability in the run-up to an election, which we're in one way or another, is to offer alternatives.

So this is an opportunity for the Conservatives. Seemingly in trouble, but an opportunity. Okay, what would you do? And how would you do it right now? So I'm assuming that Aaron O'Toole, he's not a stupid person, is working on that front. And he doesn't have long to put something together which, you know, could possibly attract people back into the conservative camp.

So we'll see how that flows out. Look, we're just about out of time for this week, but I did want you to touch briefly on the climate summit that's coming up. This is Joe Biden starting, I think it's tomorrow, right? It's Thursday and Friday of this week. And his climate change buddy, Justin Trudeau, is part of all this. And so we'll see how that plays out. But there are going to be a lot of different leaders from different parts of the world.

And I think I saw that China's President Xi is going to be a part of this in some fashion as well. So it's a big deal what's going to happen over these next couple of days or not happen. So point us in that direction. But once again, as I said, we've only got a couple of minutes here. I think that President Biden is reminding me of what solid American diplomacy used to look like to me, right? It's careful. He doesn't do more or say more than he wants to.

So he's indicated that he's going to have a meeting with the Russian leader at some point, but he's not thirsting for that. He's taken sanctions against Russia and he's sort of ignored any blowback or any pushback. He's just sort of said his piece and then he moves on, which I think is a bit of a hallmark for how he's dealing with these things. He said, we're getting out of Afghanistan. I know I remember your remarks last week about that, but he's got a kind of a business-like approach to it.

He's not a show pony when it comes to these things. And I kind of like that, especially in contrast. Now maybe if Trump hadn't existed as president, I'd be saying, couldn't he be a little bit show here. I'd like to have a little bit more excitement value for my presidential dollar. But, but, uh, I'm just kind of relieved that he kind of does the work, keeps his head down. Now on climate, I'm fascinated by what he's done because you remember that he

looked like he was walking wounded or dead on arrival in his run to become the democratic nominee because he looked old he looked out of touch he wasn't in line with the new thinking of the alexandria ocasio-Cortez's and Bernie Sanders. And part of what they were saying about him is that, like, he's not green enough. Well, you know, I saw when he started to gain momentum and move towards the presidency, he changed the way that America was talking about the climate change issue from almost exclusively obligation and a sense of crisis to a part obligation and a sense of crisis, but a lot more about opportunity. And I remember that one event that he did, and I think maybe we

talked about it during the Race Next Door series that we were doing when he he was down in Detroit and he was surrounded by American made vehicles. And he said, we are going to make the electric vehicles that the world wants to buy. And so as he approaches tomorrow, I think he's bringing those countries together and he's not just going to try to add pressure to them from the standpoint of obligation. He's basically signaling there's a race. It's an economic race as well as a save the planet race. And if you want to work with us on it, we'll be open to working with you. And if you don't want to work with us on it, that's okay too. But we're going to apply pressure in some areas and probably some incentives to those that want to work with it. So I'm going to be really fascinated at how he deals with it. And of course, as the most integrated economy with the American economy, we have a huge stake in,

in getting this right and working with him and seeking opportunity together. So we'll be watching. Yeah, we'll all be watching. It'll be, it should be a fascinating, uh, couple of days.

I mean, it's a, you know, a virtual meeting, but just like everything is these days. Um, but nevertheless, it,

it should create some moments within those two days. Um, quick heads up for tomorrow, uh, where Bruce Chantel and I will be doing some good talk. And that offer is still out there for a 30-day free trial offer because the good talk is just on SiriusXM. It's not a podcast like this is a podcast that's available to you

at no cost through any number of different podcast servers. This one is a SiriusXM. It's a one-hour great political discussion. We've had a lot of really good reaction. Very nice. People are loving it. And we're loving it, too, because it's a chance to reunite with our dear friend Chantal. But, yeah, if you get a chance to listen, give it a go and see what you think and let us know.

And that offers at siriousexam.ca slash petermansbridge. It's 30-day. All you got to do is give your email. You don't have to do credit cards or anything like that. Just sign up and get it. And if you like it, well, then maybe you'll sign up permanently. Anyway, that, the bridge, obviously obviously it will be back on tomorrow at its normal time and everybody can get that one so uh we look forward to talking to you tomorrow thanks for this bruce you get back to the radishes um good luck on those i'll let you know how the

frost conditions have affected the arugula as well peter because that's a you know everybody loves arugula just like they love radishes. Right. And, you know, listen, if the crops get destroyed, you know, that's what crop insurance is for. I don't think we got around to that. We'll see. Yeah.

All right. Take it easy, Peter. You might want to consider that. Yes, take it easy is right. That's it for this day. Smoke mirrors and the truth with Bruce Anderson in Ottawa. I'm in Stratford. I'm Peter Mansbridge. That's it for this day, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth, with Bruce Anderson in Ottawa. I'm in Stratford. I'm Peter Mansbridge.

Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you again in 24 hours.