The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Hate and Trying To Confront It

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

There are many forms of hate and sadly we see that unveiled in different ways and in different places almost every day.  It leaves many of us with questions about how we can make a difference in confronting it.  Today a story about one woman's attempt to do just that.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. Hate, and what can we do about it? And welcome to another week here on The Bridge. I'm Peter Mansbridge in Stratford, Ontario. Hate. Well, hate comes in many different forms. And sadly, we see varying forms of hate all too frequently these days. And not just in one place.

It's not just happening in parts of the United States where it clearly does happen. But we've seen it in New Zealand. We've seen it in Australia. We've seen it in Britain. And yes, we've seen it here in our country. There are different forms of hate. There are different levels of hate. But hate is hate. Last week in Peterborough,

Ontario, the verbal and physical harassment of Jagmeet Singh, the NDP leader, was very much on display, caught on camera. You can see it. You can see the faces of those who are yelling at Singh, threatening Singh, giving Singh the finger, and there was hate on their face. Then the all too familiar sound of gunfire in a public space in the United States, this time in Buffalo, a horrific, horrific sign of hate. Ten people dead. Four injured.

A young gunman in custody, 18 years old. What's the through line, the common thread through almost all of these stories? Well, it's the way these people have been radicalized, almost always through what they've read online. And certain chat rooms and certain feeds fostering and festering hate. Whenever I see these stories and you see them, you'll see the television networks there on location within minutes

and they're interviewing people trying to get as much information as they can about what just happened. And often the question comes around to what are we going to do? How are we going to deal with this? What's involved in trying to deal with this? You know, I was watching Al Sharpton, Reverend Al Sharpton on television, both yesterday and again today, where he was talking about the common thread through all of these stories, which is some degree of hate, hate fostered by

anti-black feelings, anti-Semitic feelings, the belief that whites only should run the world. And he said, you know, we've, as individuals, it's not always just government. It's not always banning assault weapons, which should be done. But it's not always those

kind of actions. It's also actions by individuals, by us, to have more impact on the lives of those close to us and the lives of others. Well, today's bridge is kind of about that. You know, in the couple of years that I've been doing this podcast, other than just occasionally referencing that I'm in Stratford, I don't talk about Stratford.

I love this city. Small city, 30,000 or so, southwestern Ontario. A cultural leader in the country with the Stratford Shakespeare Festival. A number of small tech firms here, very successful. A caring community, a giving community. But there are also issues in our little town, our little city, just as there are in many other smaller communities in this part of the country and in other parts as well.

And one of those issues is what's feeding into the minds of young people. Well, today I've got a story. I was planning on doing this today even before what happened in Buffalo on the weekend. This isn't about Buffalo. It's just about, it's about Stratford. It's a local story that I think has an impact beyond our borders. And that's why I wanted to bring it to you. It's the story of a woman, business leader in Stratford.

Her name's Carrie Reiford. She runs a homeware store. It's called Bradshaw's. It's well known, obviously, within the community, but it's also known outside of Stratford. Has a large customer base. But Carrie wasn't born in Stratford, didn't grow up here, but has been here for almost a generation. Raising kids here, the kids go to school here.

Well, something happened that impacted Carrie. And as a result, it's impacted the whole community. So I want to run an interview I did with her about what happened and what she's done about it and why she thinks that's important. After it's over, I'll put a few things in context because I think there are a couple of things to be needed to put in context. But the main thrust of this interview is about how one person can make a difference. So why don't we get to it. Carrie referred to us her name. And listen up.

Well, first we'll take a break so I don't have to interview uh interrupt sorry i'm carrie during uh the interview so we'll be right back right after this and welcome back peter mansbridge here in stratford ontario you're listening to the bridge on sirius xm channel 167 canada talks are on your favorite podcast platform as promised my interview with stratford business leader, businesswoman, Carrie Reifert, about something that's happened to her and her family and the impact it's had on her and her family and the impact it's had on our community.

There's a lesson here for all of us. This isn't just a Stratford story. This is a Canada story. Here's the interview. Carrie, I want to start, first of all, by trying to understand what motivated you here before we get into actually what's happening and what you're doing. So what was it that got you motivated to take the moves that you've taken? What spurred this on? Okay, well, in a nutshell a nutshell basically just to give you

some context is um you know i'm jewish i grew up in toronto i attended a private hebrew day school from grade one till grade eight um you know i grew up as part of the jewish community there and then making a long story short um I married a man from Stratford and we moved back to Stratford about 16 years ago. Okay. When I moved here, I, in my mind, knew possibly at some point

I might discover a feeling of not being welcome in my community because of a lack of exposure to Jewish people in smaller Canadian towns but um it wasn't until more recently when I started listening to a lot of reports across the country of anti-semitic incidents taking place in schools that I really started to get uncomfortable. You know, I could really relate to those incidents, even though they weren't happening in Stratford. But then all of a sudden they were happening in Stratford. And I became aware of some incidents in Stratford, in a Stratford school. And I realized, okay, this is now on my front doorstep. And I can't sit here and not comment on it and not get involved with the upbringing that I've had,

the people I've known. I just can't. It became personal and not just for myself and my family and my children, but for everyone in our community here in Stratford who is dealing with a lot of hate, hate-related incidents. Can you tell us what the incident was or the incidents were that suddenly made you realize this is my town too? It's very tricky to comment on this subject

just because it took place in a Stratford school where minors are involved. I'm a little reticent to name the actual incidents but i will just say that um there were a number of you know incidents that occurred that you might think of being something that you could imagine like um certain um incidents that again i really just i can't really call out right now but but can you can you give us kind of a hint are we talking about you know bullying are we talking about things written on a wall are we well okay so so some of the incidents that happened in tor that I became aware of through friends of mine because

they were getting letters home from their schools addressing that there had been anti-semitic incidents such as swastikas being painted in the bathroom with spray paint things like that Kyle Hitler salutes things like that okay in in an incident here in stratford uh there was some online scenarios that i became aware of and um in one of the online incidents i could tell that the wording that was being used was not the wording of a child it's not not something myself or you or anybody that i know would be aware of language like this it is a very distinct uh neo-nazi language and that is really what gave me the kick in my butt to get moving you've got kids in school were were they aware of this um yes unfortunately they were aware of this yeah but would they bring it home would they would they talk about it or or was it because

you kind of heard about it that you started asking questions well at first yes i i started to hear some anecdotes coming home and I to be honest stupidly kind of thought oh it's just kids being ignorant or kids you know joking around that was my first inclination but then I witnessed something personally that I couldn't look away from. And it really was very disturbing and alarming. And it was happening right here, way too close. And that is when I started to ask a lot more questions of the school, get involved with the vice principal and principal of the school and kind of reach out to people that I knew to try and get some, some backup of how, how to proceed. And that, that, that particular incident you can't talk about directly or you would feel

uncomfortable talking about directly. You know what I would, I would really like to talk about it directly, but you know, I just feel like, you know, children are very, very impressionable. Okay. If they are exposed to the wrong kinds of behaviors, they might try it on. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't make them a bad person. It just makes them misdirected.

And I don't, I have hope in these kids that have made these mistakes, that with a little bit of help, they might be able to be turned into the light. But I just, I really am worried about saying or doing anything that can harm harm any child in this community who may have made a mistake they're young you know um i'm not going to hold them responsible however it does signal to me that there is a major problem uh and a problem that needs to be addressed right now by all of us regardless of my ethnicity or your ethnicity or anything is this is a problem for everyone so um i really value this beautiful community that we live in in stratford and i felt compelled to get involved well i want to talk about that involvement in a second which

clearly has the support of the school system and others in this community. So there's clearly an agreement that there is an issue here that has to be dealt with. It's not just you making this argument now. It's more than a few people. But just before I get there, you mentioned earlier, and I agree with you on this point, that there does seem to be something that's almost indigenous to smaller communities in this part of the country, certainly in southwestern Ontario, that has left certain elements of our population in terms of our younger generations more agreeable with certain ideas that are kind of fringe ideas or extreme to the right on ideas, whether they understand it or not. And, you know, I mentioned earlier, you know, about the Confederate flag stickers on the back of, you know, pickup trucks and stuff flag stickers on the back of you know pickup trucks and stuff like that um is that what you're talking about yes you know um this scenario that we're

discussing today is something that's been ongoing since uh the fall of last year this when it came on my radar here in strafford but since then, I was actually playing tennis with a few friends, and one of them mentioned to us that one of the people that we know here in Stratford, you know, has a home that she rents out part of her home to actors from the Stratford Festival. She was housing one of these people people and this person happened to be um person of color and that this person my friend's neighbor put up a confederate flag um just as as this person moved in and the neighbor we were talking about wow what do you do when your neighbor throws up a confederate flag like what do you do when your neighbor throws up a Confederate flag?

Like, what do you do then? These are people she's known for decades. And she went to them and said, hey, you know, this is making my friend uncomfortable. And, you know, would you please take it down? And they would not. And that is another problem. that is a really huge concern like i said to my husband what would we do if somebody started flying a swastika flag on their lawn like that would not be tolerable so why are we allowing these um confederate flags to fly i

just i don't understand it however just like um we were chatting about a few minutes ago i i am understanding that there is a certain culture in stratford and the surrounding area that there there is a problem there with the the imagery and the their their lack of willingness to to look at how their actions are affecting other people people who are targets of hate hate crimes and uh racism okay i should say and i know you agree with this that we're talking in these examples of a a small minority of people right as you said strafford's a great town wonderful town has all kinds of good things going for it but on on on this issue and stratford and in other smaller communities

i guess not just in ontario but in different parts of the country uh some of this stuff has infiltrated into the younger population sometimes they don't even know what they're they're dealing with or why these things create such controversy they just do it because other kids do it and you know we all know how that that works but obviously you came to the conclusion and some of your friends came to the conclusion and the schools came to the conclusion and the local museum came to the conclusion that something not only has to be done, but can be done. So tell me what it is that you started doing. Just to give you a bit of background leading up to this. I was sitting in my car one day.

I was on my way to the grocery store and i was listening to something on the cbc and it was bernie farber the chair of the anti-hate network in canada okay and he was speaking and i felt like he was speaking directly to me because what he was saying is that um you know with this rise of anti-Semitic incidents happening across Canada, across the U.S., across the world, if people are making comments denying the Holocaust or minimizing that story, and there is no one in the room to refute what they're saying, then what do we think happens? It just continues and grows so that was my impetus for trying to figure out what to do you know when these incidents were happening in the stratford school system here you know there was a process that I went through with this with that was gone through with the school where um the people involved were you know addressed they were addressed perhaps reprimanded and whatnot

but what I felt I wasn't really quite finished with there was, okay, we addressed it on that level, but where's the educational level? Where are we? What now? Where, how are we going to teach these children this incredibly complicated story? You know, and I, I was not ready to drop it. I guess I was not ready to walk away just because perhaps children had been reprimanded. In fact, I thought that that could maybe be a problem in and of itself, you know, punishing instead of expanding the minds. Right. So so this is what led me to to think about how how and what we could do to get these kids exposure to this Holocaust education that I think is critical. But for everybody who is a biracial person of color, indigenous, LGBTQ, S plus community, Asian, everybody who experiences hate,

everybody who is marginalized needs to be aware that Holocaust education is vital to preventing further problems. So long story, sorry, I went off on a tangent there. No, that's good. You know, can I give you a little bit of extra information as to my background? Because it will then pull this whole story together okay you know the response to this um although it appears that i'm just responding now it actually for me started a

number of years ago in stratford you know in 2000 and what was it 2015 i believe it was, the Stratford Festival, which everyone knows and loves, they had the Diary of Anne Frank production on at the stage at Stratford Festival. When they did that, Gallery Stratford, which is the contemporary art gallery in Stratford, mounted a show of Holocaust portraits, which actually was artwork done by my brother. OK, so they had this beautiful show of survivors of the Holocaust. The Stratford Festival had the show. And we also had John Kastner at the Stratford Perth Museum, who had a satellite exhibit from the Anne Frank House in Holland up in the Stratford Perth Museum. So there was this incredible trifecta happening of education and awareness

around the Holocaust. And I just thought that was such an incredible scenario here in Stratford in this small community, but this was happening. So, you know, there was discussions and speaker series and all kinds of things going on. And so that was when I kind of started to get involved back then. But when this whole thing was going on in the school system here i just happen to know because i keep in touch with john at the stratford perth museum that he had the anne frank exhibit up again and that is through that personal community connection that i had i was able to reach out to him and kind of tell him what was going on. And he just came forward and helped me by providing this.

He asked me if there was anything I wanted to do. And I said, well, by the way, yes, actually there is. And so what started out as just trying to get one class into the Stratford Perth Museum to expose these kids to the exhibit that's right here in our community. It turned out to be an opportunity to expand on that and to send all 18 classes from one school to go through this exhibit. Now, that was an incredible feat because it involved a lot of coordination and, you know, assistance from the school, assistance from the museum, buses, everything. So it took a little bit of doing, but it got done. And I just wanted to point out the number 18 is a very symbolic number in the Jewish tradition. So the fact that there were 18 students going from the school to see the show was very meaningful for me.

And to be honest, when when I get going on the subject, you know, 18 to 18 classes to me now is not enough. That's how I feel. I feel like that is not enough and so what would be enough trying to get every class in each of the schools in stratford um i actually think a lot bigger than that peter uh i think every every child in the school system in Canada should be learning a lot more about this subject matter so yes I'm starting in Stratford but where can this go you know where can this go you know my I was doing a little bit of research um you know it so my brother had his, he, he received an award from the Holocaust museum, uh, the Florida Holocaust museum, uh, for some work that he had done photographing survivors of the Holocaust

community there just received the award, um, just while all of this was going on in Stratford. So it was really crazy timing that that was happening for him as well. But I realized that in the United States, Holocaust education is mandatory. It's not mandatory in our province or in our country. That's interesting.

That's really interesting, especially in light of the fact that it's not like the Americans have not had issues and problems at the, you know, even greater level than you've talked about in terms of Stratford and perhaps some neighboring communities. But the very fact that there is now an obligation for schools to ensure that there's some kind of education, you know, through whether it's lectures or visits to Holocaust museums. And there are some incredible Holocaust museums. The one in, you know, intawa next to the canadian war museum is especially important but in every major city there's usually something but we're talking about small towns uh where there's nothing and and there's a degree of ignorance that spread can spread like a virus right yes um and that becomes the problem tell me me, in the last couple of minutes we've got, what kind of reaction have you had from the community?

Because you've been involved not just as an idea, but you and your husband have been involved in helping this actually happen in terms of funding in some areas. But what kind of reaction have you had at being at the kind of, you know, leading edge of this? Well, you know, I'm happy to say for now that I have had a positive reaction. There could be a negative reaction coming my way,

but I don't scare easily. However, I will say that, you know, I got some feedback from one of my friends who works at the Stratford Perth Museum. I texted her and I said, look, can you tell me what's going on when the kids go through the exhibit?

Because I know they're grade seven and eight. That's like, if you've had children, you know, that's like the worst time for teachers. Like it's a very challenging time. And I was guilty of being in a terrible grade seven and eight class. But so I asked her, you know you know like what is the response being have they been receptive are they even interested did they even care are they listening you know and she said that the kids that have been coming through the uh the exhibit have been extremely respectful um very engaged um that their eyes are as wide as saucers.

Thankfully, they are being led through this exhibit by two docents or two or three docents that have been trained by the Anne Frank House. So they're getting a really solid foundation. They're watching a video, they're looking at pictures and they're having a real discussion that's challenging their young minds. So the response from that really makes me feel like this was the right thing to do because it's, it's reaching them from friends of mine in the community who are teachers. They are all very supportive and very concerned as well. I feel like the teachers feel like maybe they don't know how to teach Holocaust studies or maybe I don't know what kind of resources they have. I think a lot is left up to, horrible pictures and movies and all kinds of things that have shaped who I am.

But if you haven't been exposed to that at all, how can you go and teach a student class of 30 people? Like, I just don't understand how one is is expected to be able to do that um and lastly I will say you know I'm very reticent about um putting heavy duty content on my feed at at the store that I work at at Bradshaw's and I'm very careful because I know there's a lot of people out there that like to hop on and just say terrible things but I did post it on my feed recently and I got an incredible amount of people reaching out to me about it and and happy that that was taking place so so all of those for those reasons, I think it's been a positive outcome. But like I say, I feel like I'm just getting started.

I need helpers and partners and people, other people in the community who are willing to stand up and fight for these kind of um canadian ideals this is not just it's not just jewish it's canadian you know um i've been put in contact with some really great people in stratford who lead up the um human rights and equity resources for the school system here in town. I've had some incredibly encouraging conversations with those people. I know that in Stratford right now, I've been doing a whole group of people in Stratford have been doing diversity, equity, equity equity diversity and inclusion training program for store owners and and business owners in Stratford to kind of expand their their thinking

on on these subjects and you know I personally have been doing courses of my own interests through the University of Alberta Indigenous studies course that is free and online it is up to all of us and this is what i'm learning through the equity diversity inclusion training it's up to all of us to seek out information it's not you know we have to all take the time and invest in making this world a better place you know and that's what i'm trying to do and i feel like i'm 47 just starting now like this is just the beginning for me and um i don't give up that's that's clear just from listening to you and And I want to tell you that, you know, obviously what you're doing is incredibly important.

It's inspiring to hear you talk about it. And it's clearly, you know, very brave of you and the others who are involved in this to try and make this happen. But I think we understand from listening to you why you see it as so important. And as you said, it's not just a Stratford thing. It's a Canadian thing.

I can tell you, you know, your friend been to i've been to holocaust um museums um in a number of different uh cities not only in canada but in in britain in germany um and the the thing that you notice most is exactly the way your friend described it, is when you're looking at young kids going through that who may not have known anything about what they were about to witness, when they come out the other end, they are wide-eyed. And it has made an impression. And so whether it's grade 7s or 8s or other classes,

other grades who end up going to uh this exhibit that you've helped ensure stays in in the museum for a while longer um you know those are our deeds that uh that you have to be thanked for by uh by your community and i hope you continue to be thanked for by your community um we're going to leave it at that for now, Carrie, but I'll check in with you to see how it's going over time and I really appreciate you having the courage to talk to us about it because I know it's not easy. It's not easy, Peter, but

you know, this is the time for us to lean in and get closer to these uncomfortable subjects. It's not the time to turn a blind eye and not say anything. It's now more important than ever to lean in, get your hands dirty. I agree with that. Good for you for doing that. Thanks again. Thank you so much for having me today. I appreciate your interest and your interest in telling this story.

Thank you, Peter. Carrie Reifert in Stratford, Ontario. And her story of trying to make a difference. And I think it's an important story. Now, there are a couple of things that I should put in context, because I was surprised. You heard me.

I was surprised when Carrie mentioned those figures from the United States that it's mandatory in the United States, Holocaust training in schools. It is to a point. Twenty-two states, as of the end of last year, had mandatory Holocaust training, Florida being one of them, and Florida is what she mentioned. But that is less than half the country. However, it certainly stands above where Canada is

on this issue of mandatory training. Most of the training that goes on in Canadian schools is because of teachers, teachers who are committed to their students understanding what happened and teaching them what happened. And that's often an individual teacher decision. And, you know, good for them. But, you know, I read a report last night and early this morning, there was partly commissioned by the Ontario government into students' attitudes towards the Holocaust. And in that, the opening line, this was 2021, no Canadian province or territory mandates Holocaust education as part of their secondary school curricula.

No Canadian province. Now, I understand that there have been developments in BC and in parts of Ontario, but overall, Canada is well behind the United States on this issue. This study, which was a big study, and once again commissioned by the Ontario government, or at least partly funded by the Ontario government, had some shocking results. You know, I'm not going to go through them all, but I'll give you some of them. 42% of the students contacted, and there were more than 3,500 in both Canada and the United States.

42% have witnessed anti-Semitism in some direct way in their lives. There's a couple of, you know, as I said, there are a lot of different results on this. But some of the ones that I find most shocking are ones like that, what they've witnessed. A third of the students contacted have some doubt about claims about the Holocaust, whether it even happened. Or those who believe, well, yeah, okay, it happened, but those numbers don't make sense. Six million dead? No, that's not possible. Those are the kind of things which spur people like Carrie Reifert and others who have supported her in this community to do what they're doing.

Further education. And find ways to explore this issue. Now once again, as I said earlier, anti-Semitism isn't the root of all hate. But whether it's anti-Black hate, whether it's anti-Indigenous hate, whether it's hate on any level, there does seem to be, as Reverend Sharpton was saying again this morning, whether it's hate on any level,

there does seem to be, as Reverend Sharpton was saying again this morning, there does seem to be a connection between all of these. And it's clear there was a connection in the head of this young person accused of the horror of Buffalo yesterday or Saturday, there's no doubt there was a connection for him in the way he determined his feelings. Anyway, that's it. I'm not going to prolong this. I did want you to hear how one person can make a difference on a small level, but it's a difference. And it's going to take a lot of those kind of difference-making moments

to try and deal with this issue, because this issue's not going away. This issue is getting worse. And it's getting worse day by day, week by week, month by month, year by year. You can see it. You can see it in the stats. All right, that's it for, I guess, what's been a special edition of The Bridge on this day. I appreciate you listening in, and obviously your thoughts are ones that I would love to hear.

The Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com. The Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com. Tomorrow, Brian Stewart will be by with his latest commentary on what's happening in Ukraine. Wednesday, Bruce Anderson with smoke mirrors and the truth. Thursday is your turn.

And Friday is good talk with Chantel and Bruce. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening on this day. We'll talk to you again in 24 hours.