The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Have the NATO Allies Finally Had Enough of Donald Trump?

Episode Date: December 6, 2019

and hello there I'm Peter Mansbridge this is the bridge for your weekend listening we're well into December now just a couple of weeks away from the holiday season. I guess we're already in the holiday season, but Christmas and New Year's still to come for so many Canadians. And, you know, the excitement that's always attached to that. So what have we got? What have we got to talk about this week? I'm going to talk about NATO. Now, keep listening. It'll get interesting. But I think you got

to understand what really happened this week, because this was a historic week for NATO, not simply because it was the 70th anniversary of what many people consider the strongest military alliance, the most effective military alliance ever in the history of the world. So it was its anniversary, but something remarkable happened this week that really sets a new tone. I don't know whether it will be a tone that lasts for long, but there's no doubt it happened this week.

What happened was the undisputed leader of NATO has always been the United States. They put up the most cash. They're at the front lines of NATO. They've done distinguished service for that military alliance over the 70 years and especially throughout the Cold War. But there are other countries involved. Historically, all those other countries have looked up to the Americans,

have looked up to the Americans, have looked up to the President of the United States as kind of the acknowledged leader in many ways of NATO. I mean, think about those names. You know, Truman, Eisenhower, the great military leader from the Second World War. Kennedy. You know, wasn't Eisenhower, but he was a military person. He actually served the U.S. Navy. Was regarded as a hero for his service there, Kennedy. LBJ. Nixon, Jerry Ford, Jimmy Carter. You know, for all the

things that are said about Jimmy Carter, Jimmy Carter served during the Second World War as well. Also in the U.S. Navy. Ronald Reagan, seen as a strong force for the West, took on the communists, took on Brezhnev, made friends with Gorbachev, followed by Bush, Bush number one, war hero, pilot, shot down, rescued at sea in the Pacific. Clinton, kind of leading the pack in those who found ways not to serve during Vietnam. Followed by Bush number two, who also found ways to not serve in Vietnam. But nevertheless, all these leaders, and followed by Obama, regarded by the other allies as a strong force within NATO and the acknowledged leader. So now we get to Trump.

That's what happened this week. What happened this week was for the first time in the 70-year history of NATO, at least in my reading of it, for the first time the Allies said, you know what, we're not going to take this anymore. We don't have any respect for this guy. We understand the U.S.'s importance in NATO.

We understand who ponies up with the forces and the money. But we're sick of this guy treating us the way he treats us. And so you saw this, like, parade. I don't know whether it was planned, probably not, but it certainly unfolded day after day through the NATO gala celebrations of their 70th anniversary. You know, it started with the, what they call a bilateral. I mean, the major conferences are all the leaders are at,

but the real work tends to happen within these bilaterals, the one-on-one meetings. So day one, you have a Trump-Macron meeting between Donald Trump and Emmanuel Macron in France. And whenever these one-on-ones happen, there's kind of like two minutes where the media gets a chance to show, you know, take some pictures of the two together, sitting there awkwardly, you know, by a fireplace

or by some flags or whatever. But Trump loves these moments. He, like, goes on and on. He talks. He answers questions. And it's always awkward for the other leader because most of the questions are from the U.S. media, and they've got nothing to do with NATO,

nothing to do with the meetings at hand, but lots of questions on domestic politics and obviously with the impeachment happening, lots of questions on that. Anyway, this thing that had gone on and on, and Macron, you could tell, was, you know, can we move on here? Anyway, Trump drops one of his little bombs, taking a shot at Macron, who he felt had taken a shot at NATO. He takes a shot at him around the ISIS issue. Well, Macron wouldn't have anything to do with it.

And he shot back, rebuked Trump live in front of the cameras to his face, and the look on Trump's face was amazing. He was stunned. He couldn't believe somebody was doing this to him. But it happened. That was day one. Then you move into the next day, and Trump has a meeting with Angela Merkel,

the German leader. These two don't like each other. Trump and Macron were supposed to have this bromance of a kind. Didn't look like it this week, that's for sure. But Merkel and Trump, you expect some tension. So knowing that full well, Trump still does another one of these one-on-ones, and it goes on and on and on and on. And this time, and I've got to hand it to those who are videoing this, the pool cameras.

Usually they just sit on a single shot of Trump, because he's the one who's babbling away. But on this, they sit on a two-shot. So you can see Angela Merkel sitting there, getting more and more frustrated as she's having to put up with listening to Trump talk about all kinds of things that have nothing to do with NATO. And, you know, him going after Pelosi for her operation as Speaker in the U.S. Congress.

And I thought for a minute that Merkel was just going to get up and leave. And I've often, I've got to say, wondered why some of these leaders don't do that because they go on. I don't know how long that one went, 20 minutes, 30 minutes. But she stayed there. As much as she looked like she wanted to just get out, she's leaving shortly anyway as she's retiring.

But she looked like she was ready to leave the room. But it was all written on her face so it was clear. There was rebuke number two without words. Just the visual. Now anything was rebuke number two without words, just the visual. Now, did anything else happen this week? I'll tell you what happened. Chris Rands, who's a producer at the CBC in Ottawa, was watching the pool feed come in, and there's like miles and miles of video shot at these conferences

by pool cameras. And, you know, somebody has to kind of monitor them and put them in the library, video library. Well, for CBC in Ottawa, Chris Ranz, who works for Power and Politics, Vassie Capellas' show, he was monitoring it. He's watching this stuff come in. And he sees this little grouping of people, leaders, including Trudeau,

and they're talking, and he can kind of hear something going on. So he puts a headset on and listens in, and sure enough, turns out he gets one of the latest of the stories of the week of how these leaders have had it with Donald Trump. He's got that great stuff of Trudeau with Macron, with Princess Anne. Not exactly a world leader, but Princess Anne. I don't know whether you're watching the

latest series of The Crown, but boy, she's terrific in it. But she was involved in this little, they're calling it a gossip session, where they were clearly talking about Trump and how he tries to, you know, how he ends up hijacking photo ops with his long Q&As. They were laughing at him. They were laughing at him. Now, much has been made, especially by the Canadian media, of Trudeau's role in all this, and that's fine. We can be provincial about these things

and sort of pick out our guy, talk about him, and there's a debate back and forth. Was it going to hurt Canada? Oh, my God, are we going to have to pay for this? Or was it smart? Is it about time? I think Susan Delacorte wrote a great piece in the Toronto Star the other day saying it's about time these guys laughed at Trump. Anyway, to me, in that shot,

there was one that must have cut deeper than any of the others to Donald Trump. And it wasn't any of the people I just mentioned. You know who I'm talking about, sure. Bojo, Boris Johnson, the British Prime Minister, was in that group. And he's supposed to be big pals with Trump. I don't think so this week.

He was going out of his way to make sure he didn't have to be anywhere near Trump. Look at all the pictures, positioning himself not beside Donald Trump. Even when they were welcomed onto the stage in the conference, as the host prime minister, he had to shake hands with Trump, and he did, but he moved them along real quick, like real quick. Anyway, Boris Johnson was there yucking it up, enjoying this as much as anybody else. Laughing as hard as Macron. Laughing as hard as Trudeau.

Laughing as hard as Princess Anne. So, there you have it. You have a historic week. Trump rushed out of town, canceled his news conference, got on his plane, flew home. But it was significant in the sense, to me, that this was the first time in the 70-year history of this thing they basically blew off the American president in a number of different ways.

I don't know whether it was planned. I doubt it. It just kind of happened. They all just kind of at the same time said, I've had it with this. Like, you know, the movie Network. I'm not going to take it anymore. And they didn't.

We'll see what retaliation there is. And there may well be. And it's, you know, apparently Trump's already talking about new tariffs against Canada and France. Maybe he will. And maybe it'll hurt. But that'll tell you something as well, won't it? Anyway, that was that.

I found it particularly interesting, and I find it will be interesting to watch the fallout in the days ahead. And I guess we'll first see the fallout, one way or the other, in Britain. Election coming up in a few days. And those of us who love election nights will sit there late into the night. It's a funny way the Brits do their elections. But I love watching it. It's great theater. It's a funny way the Brits do their elections. But I love watching it. It's great theatre. It's great television. It's great journalism.

So we'll be watching that on Thursday and see what happens. In the last, you know, while, British pollsters have had real problems suggesting what outcomes could be like, including on Brexit. Right now they're suggesting a Bojo win, Bojo majority. I guess we'll see. It'll be fun to watch. It'll be fun to see

whether, if that is the case, whether Johnson is on the phone with his old buddy Trump the next day making up for all these things. But listen, we should never assume that they all get along. It's hardly the first time that a Canadian and an American leader have had, you know, differences. Not around NATO, but just differences. Diefenbaker and Kennedy didn't like each other. Pearson and Johnson had issues around Vietnam. Trudeau and Nixon really didn't like each other. Nixon wrote in his notes.

It's there. You can see it in the U.S. Congress in the library. Nixon called Trudeau an asshole. Trudeau was said to have responded, I've been called worse things by better people. So, there you go. We'll see how this unfolds. British election coming up, you won't want to miss that. I should note, and I wish I could play you tape of these, but I can't given

the venue they were done in. Uh, but I've had two fascinating interviews over the last couple of weeks where I was interviewing on stage, uh, two people, uh, who have made the headlines in the last, uh, well, over the last few years. First one, Susan Rice, who was the National Security Advisor for Barack Obama. She was fascinating, talking about the current situation but also talking about the situations she found herself in

including Benghazi during the Obama years but she also talked about a little bit about Ronan Farrow the writer, author. Sorry, not Ronan Farrow. Why was I thinking Ronan Farrow?

I was thinking Ronan Farrow because my wife, Cynthia Dale, just bumped into him at the Toronto airport the other day. They got into a conversation and she mentioned that to me. No, I'm not talking about Roland Farrell. I'm talking instead about someone who definitely made the headlines and has continued to do so ever since he went into exile in Moscow just a few years ago. I guess around, when was it, 2013.

You know who I mean. You know who I mean? Come on. Think about it. Got a book out right now. They all have books out. That's why they end up in Toronto. Susan Rice is here with her book.

But Edward Snowden is here, or was here, for his book Permanent Record, which is kind of an explanation of the whole story that he found himself in when he left the U.S. with all these secret documents from the NSA and the CIA and started releasing them. And they told a story of mass surveillance

and it was extremely controversial. There are those who call him a traitor, there are those who call him a traitor. There are those who call him a hero for doing that. Now, he's never left Moscow, and he didn't leave Moscow for this interview I did with him because he was in Moscow at a secret location somewhere, and I was in Toronto. We were hooked up electronically and with cameras

and did an interview for an audience in downtown Toronto of colleges and university presidents and board chairs and board members, and it was fascinating. It was a fascinating discussion about whether or not we were actually living today in a post-privacy world. Anyway, both these guests that I interviewed, and in many ways, you know, they're not fans of each other, but gave me lots to think about,

and maybe we can turn it into some form of discussion in the near future. Unfortunately, it won't be with either of them. But that's that on that front. Time for the mailbag. I have one letter that I want to read. Our new format is reading one letter, talking a little bit about it,

because people aren't writing with questions. They're writing with thoughts, either spurred on by something i've said in the podcast or just something that's on their mind and i'm finding it fascinating reading and as i said i pick one each week and i'm going to be back with the one for this week right after this. All right. This one, this letter this week is a little, it's kind of interesting. It's a little different. It's from Nima Tabatabai. Nima Tabatabai. I think that's the way you pronounce it, Nima. So let me read it, and then I'll talk about it a little bit. Hi, Peter.

I was born and raised in Calgary, and my dad loves the news, so I grew up with your voice in our house every evening. I left Canada in 2006 for Europe and have lived in London, England for the last 11 years. I can't say I have done the best job of keeping tuned into Canadian arts, media, and culture, but I do follow you on Instagram. When I learned about your podcast, I subscribed immediately and just listened to my first episode today. Non-traditional media really does cross borders.

Well, thank you for tuning in and listening to the bridge, Nima. Anyway, back to the letter. To the real story, I was listening to your pod while shaving in the bathroom. Natalie, my British wife, came in midway, and after about 20 seconds of listening, she asked, is this playing at a half speed? I've heard that before. To which I answered, no, it's Canadian, both defensively and proudly. The exchange made me realize and appreciate the deliberate, mindful tempo of your delivery and of Canadian conversation in general. I've been told I'm a slow speaker in the UK, but never in Canada. Pauses for reflection or effect are all too rare over here, it seems. Sometimes taking things a touch slower really is better. I find this sets Canadian media

apart from American and British outlets, which can be frenetic and exhausting. I think you exemplify this. I'll keep tuning in to hear the pauses and keep up to speed with Canadian matters. Excuse me. That's the other reason you take pauses, so you can, like, cough to clear your throat. You know, I don't think I'm, you know, I have a,

I was going to say a deliberate style, but I have a style that I've developed over a couple of months of doing the bridge, which is slow and deliberate and does involve pauses, partly because I sort of wing this thing. It's all ad lib. And sometimes you need a pause to collect your thoughts and try to get the names right,

like Ronan Farrow versus Edward Snowden. But listen, I am, and I'm not sure it's a Canadian thing, maybe it is, but I am a slower reader than the average reader. I can remember when I started doing newscasts on CBC radio, they send you to a sort of like news training you know routine or you spend a couple of hours with with somebody and they they explain to me that the average reader reads a hundred when they're reading out loud reads 150 words per minute you should time yourself on that and see where you come in. And they said, you know, Peter, you've got to keep up the pace because you're slower than that.

You're around 130. And I said, yeah, but that's the way I read. That is, you know, that's the speed I read at. They said, well, see whether you can pick it up a little bit. And I think I picked it up to around 140 by the time I was doing the national. But never more than that. And sometimes, you know, there would be problems on the program and the lineup editor would come in in my ear and say,

oh, man, we're running heavy. You're going to have to speed up. And I'd get on the phone during an item. I'd say, I'm not going to speed up because that's when mistakes will happen. So let's figure out where we're going to cut. And then we go through some of the copy stories that I read and find out where we could take out a line here or there so we could come in on time. But it's an interesting exercise, and you can do it by, you know, finding something that's 150 words long, read it out loud, and see how long it takes you to read it,

whether you can do it in a minute, whether you can do 160 words in a minute. And is that good, or would you prefer slower? Interesting exercise. You never know. Could lead to a job. Right? So think about that one.

All right. Thank you, Mima. I really, or Nima, sorry, I enjoyed that letter, and I think you've got something there in terms of the Canadian conversation in general. I think it does tend to be at a slower pace than elsewhere. And that just is one of those distinguishing factors about us as a nationality. Your letters are always welcome here at the Bridge.

You can write me at themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com, themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. That's it for this week. Hope you've enjoyed it. Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you in seven days. Thank you.