The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - How And Where Is The World Changing Under Donald Trump?

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Dr Janice Stein has been globetrotting again, to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan and she's got some great stories to tell about how the other side of the world is dealing with Trump 2.0.   Can we learn from what they're doing? 

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You're just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. It's Monday, that means Dr. Janice Stein. The topic today, how the world is changing with Donald Trump. That's coming right up. And hello there, welcome to another week. It's a big one on Canadian domestic politics. Coming up tonight, the first debate between the liberal leaders, or those who want to be liberal leader. It's in French. Tomorrow night is in English.

Tomorrow morning, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth will delve into what happened tonight. And then later this week, the Ontario election. So there's lots to talk about on domestic politics front. But not today. Today we're going to talk about international affairs, because it's our regular Monday discussion with Dr. Janice Stein. We missed last week with Janice because she was in the Far East, and that's what we're going to talk about, what she was hearing there.

I think you'll find it really interesting. Before we get there, a couple of things. Well, first of all, one of the big things that changed just in the last 24 hours is the German election. Germany went as expected. It went right. The Conservatives won that election, and therefore will form the next German government,

and finishing in second place, the alternative for Germany, an even further right party. So they're the official opposition, so to speak, in the German parliament. So interesting times in Germany. Okay. I wouldn't assume, though, right off the bat, and we'll need to do a little more study and research into this, that the new German government is totally aligned with Donald Trump. In fact, the new German leader made that pretty clear right away yesterday.

There are things, especially on the foreign front and especially in terms of the future of Europe, where they don't agree. So keep that in mind. Okay, before we get into our discussion with Janice Stein, the question for this week. A reminder, answers in this week a little earlier than normal, and I'll explain this later in the week why it has to be earlier, but 3 o'clock Wednesday afternoon, Eastern Time, for your questions. So you can start getting them in today or tomorrow.

Three o'clock, Eastern time, Wednesday. Include your name, the location you're writing from. Keep the answers relatively short, please. One paragraph is what we're looking for. And you write to themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. What is the question? I'm grocery shopping like you guys do.

In my case, over the weekend. And what's clear when you're grocery shopping these days is that most of the stores are giving you ample evidence as to where the products come from. And I guess it's not just groceries. It's other stores as well. Hardware stores, clothing stores, appliance stores. Canadian made, it usually comes off, or Canadian grown, it usually is very clear in the packaging. And just as clear is where the products are coming from south of the border. And I think it's fair to say that a lot of Canadians are making decisions about what they buy based on those labels.

So here's the question. When you're shopping and you see friends, relatives, acquaintances who are not looking at labels. How do you react? Are you okay with that? Everybody each their own? Or do you make a point of trying to say something? I want to try and understand the depth of this issue because there are a lot of people who feel very strongly about this product

buying issue. So tell me what you think, what you do, what you see. And actually, if you're one of those people who doesn't much care about where it comes from, tell me why you're feeling that way, why you're sticking to normal, in effect, in light of what's going on. All right, so there's your questions. It's kind of hazy and muddy, but you get it.

Okay? Do you go along with Made in Canada labels? Are you turned off by Made in or Grown in Canada labels? Are you turned off by made in or grown in America labels? Or not? Tell me about that. There's your question of the week. Looking forward to seeing some of your answers. Okay, let's get into our discussion with Janice,

because as I said, I think it's really interesting. So here she is, Dr. Janice Stein from the University of Toronto, Director of the Munk School, our weekly conversation. So Janice, I've been anxious to talk to you, and I know our listeners have been anxious to hear from you, because we know you've been on the other side of the world, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan. On this side of the world, and I don't mean just North America, but Europe as well, it has been a crazy last 10 days in terms of trying to sort out what the heck is going on with Donald Trump and some of the things he's saying that he's going to do. So my question to start things off is, are they as concerned about what Trump is up to

on that side of the world as we are on this side of the world? It's so interesting to be, the short answer is no, with the exception of Taiwan. Very interesting to be there as the story was unfolding because we were they were reading the same news I was reading and it was really striking Peter the difference in being in Asia as opposed to being in Europe or North America and watching all this. In a way the trip

it was structured We didn't know this in advance. The least concern in Japan. Now, they're the most formal society of the three, so they're very contained, but confidence in Japan. And this

is the Japan of Shinzo Abe, who managed to establish very good relationship with Trump. Trump won. They are, the way they think about the world, it's what kind of deal can we make with Trump too? And in all the discussions we had, and we met with government officials and journalists who are really knowledgeable and that's where they were. It's clear. Go a little further to South Korea. That's already different because they're in the middle of a huge crisis of democracy themselves right now. And in the quieter moments, the concerns were very apparent.

And then the last three and a half days in Taiwan, where the Halifax Security Forum took the forum to Taipei, and we had a fair number of Canadians with us too, dug in grit resolves they see themselves as the Ukraine of Asia there's no question about it and as they were watching frankly

what I would describe as the betrayal of Ukraine unfold in real time you could just see the stiffening of the spine what did you make of the spine. What did you make of the betrayal of Ukraine? I mean, in some ways, we've seen this coming, right?

Yes. But when you suddenly are up against it and hearing it in the cold, hard reality of both Trump and his defense secretary, It's still a stunner. It really is stunning. It is shocking. You know, you could put the following spin on it. You could. I don't, but you could, which is Trump has been obsessed with Ukraine

since the first Trump administration. It has nothing to do with the big security issues. It has everything to do with Hunter Biden and Joe Biden and that whole sad and sorry story. And when Zelensky didn't play ball with him over that issue, he did not launch an investigation of Hunter Biden and Joe Biden. Well, that was it for Trump. And this is just a revenge story. Now, the reason I bring this up, Peter, and certainly there are people who think that way, even in Asia. If you think about it that way,

it's less frightening because it's a very specific history and Trump doesn't have that history. You know, he doesn't have that history with us in Canada. He doesn't have that history in Asia. So that's a way of putting a frame around it and making it more manageable. I don't see it that way because this is the president of the United States.

And it's not only Pete Hexeth, his defense secretary. It's Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, who's pleasing the boss. You know, Steve Wyckoff on Sunday was on the talk shows and said the Ukrainians are going to sign this deal on critical minerals. They're going to sign it. And that's because when they didn't sign it,

President Trump told them what it would be like if they didn't sign it and they are now going to sign it. So that is a level of frankly extortion and brutality um which goes beyond anything i've ever seen anything and the signing of this the signing of this deal is basically payback. Yeah. And we're talking billions here. Billions and billions of dollars of access to probably one of Ukraine's biggest resources, which is critical minerals, because we all know how valuable they are in the economy that we're going into,

in exchange for nothing. Let's just understand, in exchange for nothing. No security guarantees, no future American aid of any kind. It is, in Trump's view of the world, a way of recouping the investments that the United States has made in Ukraine. And again, for the record here, the United States is the biggest military donor to Ukraine. But because it has the kit, Europeans have given more in economic assistance than the United States has given. So I can't think of a precedent.

I can't think of a precedent I can't think of a precedent like this just to take us down a little rabbit hole for one minute here when Europeans talk about this and this is much less meaningful for Asians again because they have such a different frame but the Europeans talk about Munich and appeasement and the sellout of Czechoslovakia

at that famous conference in 1938 between Neville Chamberlain and Adolf Hitler. It's a big difference here, Peter, which I think people are not paying enough attention to. Czechoslovakia had no army. That is not true about Ukraine. Ukraine has the most battle-hardened army in Europe now, and it is pretty self-sufficient. It can manufacture a million drones a year.

I think it's very important to understand Ukrainians are not going to give up on the fight, despite what Donald Trump does. You can imagine, Peter, the scene there were Ukrainians that came to this forum in Taipei. That was deliberate,

right, to kind of structure a conversation, what did we learn from each other? And they were there, and they are decision makers. They were there as this was going down. And it was hard sometimes to distinguish between what you heard from leaders like former President Tsai or President Lee, who came to talk to the forum, and the Ukrainians. It was, this war will go on.

He respected. When you heard the Americans say yesterday that the Ukrainians will sign this deal, did they say it in such a way that you believe that heard the Americans say yesterday that the Ukrainians will sign this deal. Yeah. Did they say it in such a way that you believe that they think that's really true? Yeah. I think it's a blackmail.

Well, I think that's what it is. Yeah, sure it is. But let me ask you this because, you know, the Americans want that access because they consider as you said that they they have spent billions of dollars um have sent billions of

dollars to ukraine to help them in their fight and they want that money back now when you listen to trump he believes that that canada is on the side side of billions of dollars of U.S. trade access, that there's been an imbalance there. He also wants our critical minerals. Yes, he does. Is it too much of a stretch to think, even for a moment, that we're witnessing something play out on Ukraine that we could end up witnessing play out with us? No, I don't think it's too much of a stretch. I don't think it's too much of a stretch.

You know that famous hot mic that Justin Trudeau had at the summit of business leaders where he said, this is serious. The president takes this seriously. And one of the big assets is our critical minerals, which are in the ground. And we, as you know, are not fast at getting them out of the ground and we don't we we as you know are not fast at getting them out of the ground but that's one of the big things that trump actually wants access to um so i don't think it's it's a stretch at all you know let's look at the different what well why would zelensky sign this you ask yourself because it is it's extortion and it looks like he is going to sign there in the final stages of renegotiating. And Steve Whitcoff, who is one of the more sober-minded guys around Trump,

just because there's a long-standing friendship there, and he's not in the position of constantly glorifying Trump in quite the same way, predicted that Zelensky will sign it this week. He was very specific about it. So why would Zelensky do it? Well, to the extent those critical minerals are an asset for the United States, that's a shield against a total Russian occupation.

What's a week Russian occupation. What's a weakness is a strength, right? At the same time, I think where we're totally different in Canada is there's zero chance that the Americans, even Trump, would use force against Canada. He said that.

So it's a form of economic pressure, and the question for Canadians will be, how much economic pressure are we willing to withstand? How much economic pain are we willing to withstand? For Zelensky, the stakes are much, much, much higher. But I mean, that is what he's saying. That's what Trump is saying to Zelensky. He's not going to use military pressure. He's not going to invade Ukraine. No, but the big difference is

Ukraine still needs assets from the United States that nobody else can give him. Air supports, you know, intelligence assets that he gets. The access to Starlink from Elon Musk. Those are critical assets. So if you're sitting in a presidential palace and you say, okay, I give these guys access to critical minerals.

It's a completely extortionate bargain, but once they get that access, they then have a vested interest in securing that territory from any further Russian military action. We don't have to worry about that. That's the difference. How are the Russians going to react to that? Well, it's, you know, it's very interesting because in Trump's mind, it's not, that's not how he thinks about things.

But this is really a double-edged sword. I don't think this is what the Russians would want, frankly. When you call it extortion or blackmail, does history give us any examples of this, any precedent to this kind of a situation? Oh, a ton, right? Peter, if you think about the whole colonial experience, when the Europeans went all over the world, what were they going for? They were going for resources.

They occupied countries, they shipped the resources, they shipped human beings. Human beings were a resource. I mean, that's the origin of modern slavery. So this is an old pattern. We call it imperialism. That's what origin of modern slavery. So this is an old pattern. We call it imperialism. That's what it is. You use force or the threat of force to extract resources from countries. But extracting resources because you're basically conquering them is one thing.

Extracting resources to pay back, you know, something you've given them is different. Yeah. Well, you know, it's a distinction without a difference in the end because you're pulling the resources. You understand what I mean here? The motives may be different, but the result is the same. I'm trying to think if there's a history of somebody extending loans or assistance. And then the next, you know, the successor government coming in and say, pay us back for everything.

That one's hard. I can't think of one like that. It's extraordinary. You know, we don't have categories, Peter. Everybody's jaws are just dropping in astonishment, frankly, as they're watching all this. Did anybody say, what's going on between you and Trump, like Canada and Trump? Well, you know, that's really interesting, too, because in Japan and in Seoul, it was a small group of Canadians. But in Taipei, we had a significant group of Canadians with us. You know, a former Chief of Defense

Staff Wayne Ear was there. I've always had a very high regard for him. He's one of our most thoughtful CDS. He's a kind of thinking person CDS. Just great to talk to. Canadians don't get attention in the world right now.

You know, they were all happy to see us. They kind of knew on the radar screen that we were having a hard time. And one of our board members, because it was our whole board that took this trip together, is from Mexico. So there was a perfect opportunity, really,

to say to Canadians and the Mexican, well, how are you dealing with Trump? It's a struggle to push us to the top of the agenda, frankly. So there were questions like, what do you know about Trump? Can you share any knowledge of Trump? There were those kinds of questions, but there wasn't more than a passing interest in Canada, except in Taipei, except in Taipei, where there was.

I want to go back to something you said about Japan, that of the three countries, there was less concern about Trump because they're transactional, too. It's deal-making that matters to them. Yeah. And if they see the possibility of a deal, that's okay with them. Yeah. Is there something we can learn from that?

Well, you know, I said that on purpose, Peter. I really did. And the Japanese prime minister has already been and had a good meeting with Trump. What they described as a very good meeting. And came back and lowered the temperature. Shinzo Abe is now the model for them as they think about this. And Shinzo Abe's wife, widow, because he was assassinated. Shimonzo, she's an active force.

She speaks out. And so it's very clear that the framework for Japan is a transactional framework. And the questions, and so they were most diligent in asking us what we knew about Trump, how the negotiations had gone. And what was interesting with the Japanese, they put their finger on something and they asked, why did Gloria, Claudia rather, get the call first? That's the Mexican presidentican president yes and not you what did they offer what did they do differently that she got the call before canada got the call and that is a question worth asking so i think there are things we can learn um Japan. I think what's really important is to decide where our own red line is

and then where there are some flexibilities. What we can do, and you know, Canadians are not in the mood for this discussion. I am well aware, Peter, that's not where the public temper is, but we are going to have to have a very hard

nose conversation. Where do we accommodate? What can we give Trump that will make him feel that he's gotten the win, that he's moved the needle? That will not be fundamental to us. I think we have you know we have to start that conversation now frankly because that's where the asians are

but tell me again why we have to do that simply because they're more powerful they have more people they have more money they have more military strength they have all those because the old nice rules-based order is fondly in the rear view mirror. And what's so great about a rules-based order of any kind? It protects the less strong, frankly. That's the value of rules. Because strong don't need them.

They just do what they want anyway. And the United States, to some degree, did that anyway, frankly, even in me. But nothing, nothing remotely like what we're seeing now. So, you know, the concerning thing to me is

that Trump doesn't have to do much more to Canada than he's already done. He's already inflicted damage. And where's that damage? Foreign investors done. He's already inflicted damage. And where's that damage? Foreign investors are taking a second

look, right? And they're asking themselves the question, well, why invest in Canada unless there's a huge benefit? Let's just invest in the United States and remove the uncertainty. The Canadian business community is also involved in this, frankly,

although they don't talk about it out loud, is also involved in the same calculation and saying, let's just move behind the tariff wall. Let's move our businesses, or at the very least, open one business. Every time a decision like that is made, it harms the Canadian economy and the future of the Canadian economy, which is troubling. Well, tell me why on this then. If we're in a sense going to fold in some fashion to Trump in some areas to try and

cut a deal, if we're going to do that yeah are we not also folding to putin at the same time i mean the things trump is saying about putin now and willing to give putin now these are not things that we'd be willing to do no one assumes no no um you know let's let's talk for a second about the Trump-Putin relationship. There were, as I said, Europeans at the conference, and the Japanese know the Russians very well, too. And this is speculation, as opposed to evidence. This is just speculation. The speculation was Trump-Putin negotiations

are going to go on and in the final analysis Putin will say no. And that people are reading him wrong. That he will say no. Because he thinks he can outlast Trump. Trump is erratic. Putin really only wants one thing from the United States right now.

One thing. That's all. To lift the sanctions. Because the Russian economy is really struggling. It is truly struggling. There's no question. The interest rate's 21%. Just imagine.

It would take to the streets of Central if we were paying 21% interest. That's what they're paying in Russia right now. Inflation is high and growing. So, you know, here's the great irony. Trump is doing this at exactly the wrong moment, right? Like he's doing this. And that's what Putin wants from him. And if he doesn't get that, the speculation is he'll walk away.

But he'll extract every concession he can from Trump along the way. So it's not a foregone conclusion, the end of it all. Peter, but you're right that Trump's transactional approach to politics is so different from virtually every European country from us. But we and Mexico, Canada and Mexico need the United States for economic reasons more than anybody else. And Ukraine and Europe need the United States for security more than anyone else. But you make it sound like Trump is the guy at the poker table with all the aces. With many, most of them. Yep, that's true.

That's accurate. He is. He is the United States' sole powerful. It's got the most dynamic, innovative economy in the world. It's got the best technology in the world. It's got the best military machine in the world. It has military assets. No other country in Europe can even match.

They've underinvested, just like we did, with the exception of Poland. Well, how far is Poland going to take us standing alone against this, right? So what's the point in all this patriotism and pride that it's exhibited in canada we're going to stand up and defend it you know harper saying the things he said which are very strong in defense of canada's position much stronger than boliv's position much stronger but what's the point in all this stuff i think it's very important because let's go back to the way you just put it. You said if we're going to fold anyway, and I said if we're going to make some concessions anyway. It's a little bit of difference there, right?

Yes, there's some things we are going to give up in order to make Trump feel that he's gone. Let me give you an example, and this will probably set every one of our listeners on fire. Supply management on dairy. Oh, good luck with that. Yeah, exactly. That's the hottest political issue. We know how hot it is, but that's squarely in his sights, right? And there's a bunch of other stuff on the list too,

which would be equally inflammatory, right? But that is a choice we have to make as Canadians. Do we want to have continued access to the U.S. market? And are we going to preserve supply management on dairy? Is that going to be more important to us than having access to the U.S. market? That's a fair conversation to have in this country, frankly. So there's a list like that, Peter, that's coming. But patriotism really matters because it

helps us. It's really important. It helps us define this is a line we're not going to cross. For example, let me give you a for example. And, you know,'re not going to cross. For example, let me give you a for example. And, you know, this is going to come. Do we restrict? Do we continue to restrict foreign ownership? The stake of banks that can be foreign owned in Canada. That's what we do now.

The Americans don't do that. TD's all over. Anybody who goes to the United States, TD, and they use TD and they don't know it's Toronto Dominion. But that's what it is. It's TD. And so, where do you draw that line?

Well, if you've got to compare banking systems, if you have to compare banking systems, you'd much rather have ours than theirs. Well, that's right. But do you want to have ours with no foreign ownership and have tariffs? I mean, that's where we're going to go. That's where we're heading.

And that's why I am anxious for us to get a government that is going to get rid of it to get, again, being in Asia, they're all over this stuff now. They're already in that conversation, right? Okay. They're already having it. We got to take a break, but I'll, I will, I'll try, you know, I've kept meaning the last week or two to use this phrase about patriotism. And, you know, you know, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Yeah. Well, no, I don't agree with that.

I know you have to take a break. But just before, you know, at the Halifax Forum in Taipei, there was a hockey game going on, which was Friday morning in Taipei during the sessions. Well, let me tell you, the number of phones that were going, both on the American side, because we had, I don't know, the Canadian side was unbelievable. And you could see, you could see patriotism on both sides. People were fired up on both sides.

That quote, by the way, is 250 years old. It is. Almost exactly now from, what was his name, Samuel Johnson? Yes. Poet, author. Anyway, enough on that. I want to totally change the topic here because we haven't heard you on this subject and we need to hear what your take is it relates to trump again but it's about the middle east and you know what it's about and we'll get to it right after this and welcome back you're listening to the monday episode of the bridge that means dr janice stein

is back with us after a week traveling on the other side of the world um director of the monk school the university of Toronto. You're listening on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. Glad to have you with us. Okay, so Donald Trump says about two weeks ago, just as you left, that he basically wants Gaza. Give me Gaza. I'm going to build Trump Tower or Trump beach or Trump resort or whatever it

is he's going to do. And he tells what Jordan and Egypt, you take the Palestinians, get them out of here. And I'm taking over that property. And he says this while he's sitting next to Netanyahu, basically doesn't say anything. He was stunned.

I didn't know that before. It was either stunned or he was complicit, but one or the other. What, you know, and then since then, there have been all kinds of other shiny balls put out there, so we don't talk about the Gaza plan. What do you make of that? Was that a one-off? Was that a one-day wonder, or is it real?

My goodness, it's a one-day wonder, and goodness it's a one-day wonder and it's gone all right and it's very yeah it's gone it's gone um and it's gone because of the pushback from eating boys they push back egyptians and the jordanians they push back really hard and frankly even trump said well i guess that's not gonna work it's a great idea it should work, I guess that's not going to work. It's a great idea. It should work, but I guess it's not going to work. And so there is a value in pushing back. It's a ballot. And as we're talking, Peter, we're in the middle of a process, very interesting, where the Arab world mobilized. It was that plan was so shocking to the Egyptians and the Jordanians.

Who took the lead? Mohammed bin Salman and organized the conference and said, how many billions of dollars are we in the Gulf going to put on the table? Who's going to put troops in Gaza as a transition for the next two or three years?

And where do we find some technocratic Palestinians? What are technocratic Palestinians? Palestinians who are not Hamas, clearly, but also not openly identified with the Palestine Authority in the West Bank

so that there is a facade that the Palestine Authority in the West Bank so that there is a facade that the Palestine Authority is not in fact responsible for civilian governance. There's new elements in there, but not enough probably to get it over the line because here's where there is a consensus between Trump, Netanyahu, and the Gulf states. They want Hamas gone, with the exception of Qatar. So the Emirates and the Saudis who are going to pay for this want Hamas gone,

because they see Hamas as a threat to them, as well as to Israel. The meeting put all those assets on the table. They're consulting, meeting again next week with a sense of urgency. That's what Trump does. Galvanizes everybody by the chaos.

I could use the word craziness. But he does. It was moving at a snail's pace before this. And all of a sudden, there's a tremendous sense of urgency. They're going to meet again. And they're going to go back to Steve Witkoff now with an operational plan. Will it be enough? Probably not.

But it's a much better start than we've had before. You know, I'll tell you what, I mean, I thought it was nuts when he said it, and for all the right reasons, I thought it was crazy. But there's also part of me, a small part, I just want to underline that before I get all the letters you usually get, that I thought, you know what, for a hundred years, over hundreds of years, but certainly for the last hundred, for generations that preceded us and will come after us, we're missing one of the most glorious, beautiful parts of the world.

Some of that Middle East real estate, if you will. Whether it's along the Mediterranean, I mean, there's a reason Beirut is called the Paris of the Middle East. Oh, beautiful. Because it's gorgeous. But so are a lot of other places in the Middle East that, you know, I can remember sitting in a remote part of the shoreline of the Dead Sea and saying, you know, if this was anywhere else in the world, it would be condos all along here.

There would be people enjoying this. It's gorgeous. It's beautiful. Not just for the scenery and the water and all that, but for what's grown in those areas. And history. And history. Yeah. at but for what's grown on in those areas and in history and history yeah so i mean when i heard him say that i that was in a small part of my mind remembering how i felt when i've been there and what we're missing what what the world is missing yeah you know i listen I'm going to say in a small part of my mind

for a hundred years we've had this conflict right and people ask me all the time what's the road to peace I mean journalists who don't know anything about the Middle East will say that to me what's the road to peace and I have to say there isn't one

right this has been going on for a hundred years and actually this is one of the worst moments we've ever had if you look at what's going on Peter you radicalize two populations and the way you've radicalized the Palestinian population in Gaza and the Israeli population

you know you just take those really self hostages where they're doing it on a stage designed to humiliate that That's usually the kind of activity that's designed to provoke, frankly, and the Israelis themselves are engaging in activities that are also and so this is the lowest ebb we've had in certainly in 30 years, the worst.

And all in comes Trump and rattles everybody's cage and forces them out of the ritual, I support the two-state solution. As you say it, you know it's impossible. It's a wonderful Canadian reflex. I support a two-state solution. Great talking points for any minister because it shuts down the conversation. This is not going to happen. They all know it.

But it's a safe thing to say, let's just move on. Well, he blew it up. He blew it up and he bounced the ball to the governments in the Middle East and it's on them now to come up with some much more creative solutions than we've had in the past. You know, Steve Witkoff was all, and I think he's the most, he's the best of them.

Let me put it that way. He's the most pragmatic. You know, Marco Rubio was kissing the ring in the last few days. And Steve Witkoff said, oh, look, we're going to extend the ceasefire. I'm going to the Middle East. We're going to extend the ceasefire. Whether you call it an extension of phase one,

we're going to extend this ceasefire. And boy, you could hear it in his voice, this president does not want this war to start again. You know, it's funny you mentioned Rubio because I've never been a Rubio fan, quite frankly. But I've watched him over this last week and in the different meetings he's in, on the overseas meetings he's in. He does not look like a guy who's convinced, like the others, like the Hegseths

and those guys. They drank the Kool-Aid a long time ago. Rubio does not look like he's believing what he's sitting in front of and dealing with. No. You know, I agree with you. I think I don't give him a very long tenure in the job, frankly. He does not. And that's the reason I distinguish Rubio from Steve Witkoff,

because he is a longtime confidant. There's a longtime friendship there with Donald Trump. And he's secure long time friendship there with Donald Trump. And he's secure in that friendship. So he feels he's got a greater capacity to speak. He's credible

in the region because people know he speaks for Trump. And when he comes back and he speaks to Trump, there's a better relationship there to push back. And you can see, I mean, again, I look at body language all the time when I can watch it. I watch the body language.

There's a determination there. People, you know, everybody right now in the Middle East is saying this ceasefire is doomed. We got what we could get out of it was an exchange of hostage. We're never going to phase two. Everybody's going back to war. What they're not factoring in

there is Donald Trump does not want. He's the man of peace. He's gunning for the Nobel Prize prize this one he does not want this war to start again and they're going to go back to the region and they're going to stare people down in a way frankly that the biden people were far too nice to do tony blingett didn't behave like that yeah all there's little doubt that doubt that they're putting the screws to everybody they sit across the table.

They are, including the Prime Minister of Israel. Let's just understand that. Okay. All right. We're going to wrap it for today. We're glad to have you back on this side of the world. But we know these next few days are going to be ones where you're trying to beat the jet lag. So good luck with that.

And we'll talk a week from now. Thanks, Janice. See you next week, Peter. Dr. Janice Stein, University of Toronto, Director of the Munk School. And as always, we thank her for her time. She's great, and I know how much you enjoy her. Because she gets your mind thinking. Um, she doesn't expect you're going to agree with everything she says, keep that in mind. Um, but she does, uh, like I do, uh, like the fact that we talk about these issues and,

and we think about them. Okay. A couple of things to mention. You heard the question of the week at the beginning of this program. So if you've missed it for some reason, go back and listen at the beginning of the podcast and you will hear the question of the week. Deadline this week is 3 p.m. Eastern time on Wednesday. And that's basically because the agenda I've got this week. It's crazy. Starting with tomorrow, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth with Bruce Anderson and Fred Delorey.

That's one liberal, one conservative on some of the events of the week. Starting with tonight's liberal leadership campaign, leadership debate. That'll be interesting to watch because it's the first time we've seen them all on stage together. And, you know, one assumes going at each other on the differences between them. There's four left in the race and there's, what, two weeks left in the race. Later this week, Ontario election. We'll talk about that a little bit tonight too as Fred Delorey is working on the Doug Ford campaign. And we'll talk about how that's going.

My schedule this week, after we do the show tomorrow morning, I fly up to Ottawa because I've got an event there on Wednesday I have to deal with. And then I'm off to Petawawa, the forces base of Petawawa, which is home base for at least part of Cansofcom, the special operations force, the Canadian forces. And I'm the honorary colonel of that force, and I'm proud to be the honorary colonel. I've seen them in operation in Afghanistan, and I've written about them in one of my books, and they're quite the operation, and I have a lot of respect for the men and women who are in Cansov Con. So I'll be up at Petawawa on Thursday and

Friday for that. So it's a busy week. And I'm still, as you can tell, fighting the hangover of that, you know, the cold I had last week. It's still kind of evident there in my voice. I think you can probably hear. But hopefully that'll be gone in the next 24 had last week. It's still kind of evident there in my voice. I think you can probably hear, but hopefully that'll be gone in the next 24 hours or so. Okay, that's going to wrap it up

for this day. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you again in about 24 hours. Thank you.