The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Is it time to reopen the Canada-US border?

Episode Date: June 8, 2021

Some thoughts on London, Ontario and Kamloops first, then our feature segment today on the debate around the US-Canada border -- should it be reopened?

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge, where today's question is this, is it time to reopen the Canada-U.S. border? Are you still trying to find ways to get into the world of crypto? Well, look no further. Bitbuy is Canada's number one platform for buying and selling Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitbuy has launched a brand new app and website with a new look, lower fees Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitbuy has launched a brand new app and website with a new look, lower fees, and new coins. Bitbuy is your one-stop shop to get involved and super easy to use for beginners. Visit bitbuy.ca or download the Bitbuy app. Enter referral code PODCAST20 to get $20 free when you make your first deposit. And hello once again, Peter Mansbridge here. This is The Bridge. You know, every once in a while, it seems like every month or two, there'll be some kind of survey that's put out, usually by a respected organization in the world, you know, the OECD or something like that.

Some big, internationally recognized organization. And the survey will be keyed around one or a couple of questions that's searching for the answer, what's the best country in the world to live in? Sometimes it's, you know, what's the best city in the world? Who has the best parkland in the world? Who are the nicest people in the world? You know the kind of questions. They come up. As I said, every couple of months there'll be something. And Canadians take great pride in the fact that usually in the top ten,

sometimes in the top five, and sometimes, number one, the position is held by Canada or a Canadian city. And that's pretty impressive, I guess, if these things mean anything to you. But news organizations tend to trumpet these surveys and they splash them on the front page or at the top of a newscast. Canada, number one.

Or Canada in the top five. And we see this as a point of pride and reinforces in our mind the kind of country we think we are. Well, I'll tell you, I don't need to tell you, you know that in these last two weeks there have been a couple of things come up that remind us, in fact, we are not the country we want to be. Not yet. That there's also a dark side to this story, that we have not fully expunged, that we have yet to deal with in a fashion that will truly put us in the top of those lists.

Two weeks ago, it was the haunting image of the residential schools question that comes back every once in a while. We say, terrible, horrible part of our past. At least most of us do. There are deniers, there are doubters out there. But we say, never again. We're going to deal with it. And yet, continually, things happen to remind us that not only was it a horrific story,

it was worse than we thought it was. And that's what the last couple of weeks have done with the Kamloops story. And now, this terrible, horrific incident in London, Ontario. This incident of apparent, alleged racism, perhaps terrorism. I have a car driver running over a Muslim family. Four people dead. Only one living in serious condition in a London hospital. Three generations of that family.

A terrible story. And one in which the days and weeks and months ahead will tell us further about exactly what happened. How was this planned? Why was it planned? What was behind this story? We know there have been incidents of racism in other cities in Canada over the past couple of years, terrible ones,

ones that ended in death. And all of these incidents remind us that we are not the country we want to be. Not yet. And that we can't ignore these things. We have to deal with them up front and turn this situation around. We will never deserve a point, a part, a place on those lists that I talked about. That's all I want to say on this subject today,

because I just simply don't know enough on this latest incident. But I look forward to watching the investigations and the journalism that takes place around both these stories that point to who we are as a country. Now, in the opening to the program, the little tease at the beginning of today's The Bridge, I talked about the Canada-U.S. border and the desire by some, it's more than just a few now,

to reopen that border. And in a moment, that's exactly what we're going to discuss. All right, back with The Bridge here on SiriusXM Canada Talks, channel 167, and on your podcast, wherever you get your podcast the bridge is available so the topic for today is the canada u.s border hey listen we all were taught since we were kids about this longest undefended border in the world and how it stretches thousands and thousands of kilometers

from east to west, west to east. Also, don't forget that fairly significant chunk of land in the north on the Alaska-Yukon border. So there's a lot of border. And for the most part, it is undefended. Although for this last year and a half or so, it's been closed. At least that's the way we describe it. The border has been closed because of COVID, because of the pandemic.

And because there are agreements on both sides of the border to do that. But there are voices being raised now that it's time to reopen. They've been kind of evident in the last few weeks and it's going to be a rising chorus of voices. And some people are expecting

that there will be action on this front within the next few weeks, certainly the next few months. So that's what we want to talk about. I mean, I think we all know and understand the importance of that border for trade, for the movement of goods and services back and forth between two of the greatest trading partners in the world. So what's going to happen? Well, one of the people who's been extremely active in this discussion throughout the last year and a half has been Goldie Heider, who's an old friend of mine from Ottawa days. He's been definitely involved in politics over the years. But these days, Goldie is the president and chief executive officer

of the Business Council of Canada. So he's deeply involved in this subject. And to me, he was the perfect guest to try and get some context and understanding of the debate that's going on and the discussions that are going on. So here's our conversation. Well, let's get right to it. Should the Canada-U.S. border be open? Well, Peter, technically it is open, right? That's the thing that people don't realize is that what's happened since last March of 2020 till now is both governments have effectively been rolling on a monthly basis restrictions on the border. We've kept the essential services going for the last 14 months.

Otherwise, you wouldn't have fruit in your aisles when you go to your grocery store. So the border has been functioning and it's been functioning reasonably well for those that have had to use it. The issue now is how do the folks that have been vaccinated, how do we get to travel? Especially if you've been vaccinated twice, which is really the push right now. And I think that that's where businesses and Canadians, I think, are looking for some guidance and clarity

of what changes in my life once I get vaccinated. Well, what would change on the border front? As you quite rightly mentioned, it's not like it's absolutely closed. It's not. A lot of things have been going on. But what hasn't been going on that affects the Business Council of Canada and Canadians in general? Well, obviously, business travel has been restricted to those that are essential only. So you're really seeing trucks go across the border for the most part. I mean, there are some examples of people who have been able to fly back and forth as

well. But my, you know, my anecdotal evidence is that they're literally grilled at the border as if they violated, you know, all kinds of rules when they have an exemption. So that attitude of travel is bad has been, you know, hammered home by the part of our governments to say, you know, don't go anywhere. I think the thing now is Canadians have really moved from fear to hope. And my concern is if we don't respond to that hope as leaders, whether it's business or political, the next emotion for Canadians is going to be anger. What they want to know is what have I received for being compliant with what you've

asked me to do? I have borne the burden of this pandemic as much as anybody else. We've been locked up. We've done all the things that you needed. But now I listen to do. I have borne the burden of this pandemic as much as anybody else. We've been locked up. We've done all the things that you needed. But now I listen to you. I've been vaccinated either once where I've got about 70% protection or hopefully soon twice. And what I want to know is what changes.

And so business travel for sure, but that's not the reason. I think what Canadians want to know is, can I reunite with families? There's a lot of families that have been separated, but I've got members whose husbands are on one side and the wives are on the other side, just the way the luck of the draw is here. You've got business travel for the purposes of seeing your customer. We have to

compete. Canada, US, our economy, as everybody knows, is intertwined here. And it's been in a state of suspension or some have said an induced coma for the last 15 months. How do we resuscitate this patient? How do we give people a sense of comfort and confidence that they can go across? And I think one of the things that we've seen, Peter, and this is up your alley, you know, the politicization of this issue has not been helpful. And I think we have to depoliticize it and Canadians expect their political leaders to put their interests, the public's interests ahead of their political interests on this one. Yeah, good luck on that. Because, you know, you're right.

I mean, there's so many issues that have become politicized. This is one of them, where one side figures that can, you know, make points, make gains by taking a very active, you know, political stance on it. How do you turn that around? Well, we're being told for the last 15 months, you know, follow the science. Well, the expert, federal expert panel, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention in the United States and others have all come out and basically saying, look, when you're fully vaccinated,

you are mobile. You should be allowed to go where you need to go. You don't need to be tested. You don't need to be restricted. Because at some point, Peter, this is all we got. We've been told, trust the vaccines. I trust that. So when I'm vaccinated, why on earth would I be restricted in any way, shape or form? Because this is the new normal, whatever it's supposed to be. Sure. I have to comply with local public health officials, you know, wherever I might be, whether it's on the US side or the Canadian side, that's going to be expected. But, you know, the vaccine is supposed to give me my life back. That's what's supposed to happen. And when the experts are saying that this is the case, then let's make sure that we deliver that. And the other thing I would just say to your listeners in terms of being hopeful is,

this is going to move very, very quickly. You know, for all the excitement about the vaccines and the frustrations, I haven't been one of those. I've been pretty much expecting that we will achieve the levels that the government has been telling us sooner than being advertised. By all accounts, sometime middle of August, I expect that, you know, the vast majority of Canadians will actually be double vaccinated. Some say that by late July, we will cross the Americans on the two dose because the Americans have stalled both on the first dose and the second dose. And we're going to accelerate past that. And so if that's the case, then I think it's only more likely the Canadians are going to say fantastic. What's my benefit for that? What's the outcome? What's the reward?

You know, can I plan a Christmas vacation now because I want to get in on the low rates that are available? Can I, you know, plan on making a Christmas vacation now because I want to get in on the low rates that are available? Can I, you know, plan on making a graduation that might be deferred somewhere down in the U.S. for my daughter or my son? You know, can I can I can I go go see my customer? Can I go see my colleagues? It's a lot of business that happens both way here. Can I just go to the other side of the Niagara Falls because I want to see the view from that side? This is normal behavior on the part of people. And so I think that's what we're looking for is leadership on this issue. Let me ask you about tourism and the role it plays. It's, you know, we're approaching summer.

It feels in the last few days, it felt like summer, which is great. The tourism angle, Canadians often don't seem to realize that, you know, about 10% of jobs are in some fashion, directly or indirectly, focused on tourism. And this past year has been a killer for that industry. So how much a part of the push to get things more open is about tourism? Well, look, first of all, there's no question that the uneven impact of this pandemic, both on individuals, but also on businesses is very real. We have seen the distress sectors from the transportation industry to hospitality, to tourism, to retail as a consequence of all of that. That's where I think

Canadians have been saying and businesses have been saying, help those that have been basically punished for being compliant with the new rules, right? You can't travel, you can't open up, you can't have people, you can't have people, you can't have people in your store, help those people. Those people don't work on an on-off switch, right? So whether you're talking about the restaurants, whether you're talking about hotels, whether you're talking about booking airline travel, or so forth, they need a runway, pardon the pun, but they need some time to be able to prepare for that. It's not too late to say, even on June the 7th, the day that we're speaking, that if you said now, hey, look, August, September, this is what

it could look like to go to Cabot Lodge, you know, or to go to Victoria, wherever you want to go, there's a chance that you might be able to do it. It allows people to prepare and plan. You got to bring back your workforce. You got to, you know, get yourself ready to open. You got to market that you're available and open again and get people back into your premises. So, attitudinally, I think it's important to put something out there as a marker that says you should know that you probably can plan a vacation. You might be able to go somewhere in the fall. You probably can have a vacation in Christmas. That, to me, is something that is lacking right now. There isn't a consistent, clear, coherent plan on either side of the border for the moment that says,

how is life going to be different for the second half of 2021 versus the first half of 2021? You know, about a year ago, when I first asked the listeners to this program what their view was on the border issue, the results were overwhelmingly against opening the border, right? It's about 80%. And, you know, that's just listeners to this show. But as it turned out, when you looked at other data, it was kind of similar. It was around that range, which is a pretty overwhelming number. I assume you feel that that number has changed considerably in the year since? Yeah, I think by all accounts, it's dropped probably to 50-50 at the high end. And of course, in politics, if you've got 50% of people on your side on something, you run with that. I understand that. But that doesn't make it right for the other 50% who are saying, hang on a minute

here. You told me to get vaccinated. I've been vaccinated. I think the other thing we need to realize here, Peter, is that we need to make sure that we continue to stress the importance of people being vaccinated. We're doing well. We're going to get to some pretty good numbers. But you know what? We need to be even more ambitious than that. The greatest threat to our economy, locally, globally, are the variants. The best way to mitigate risk against the variant is to increase the uptake in vaccination. So don't settle, as Canadians are known to do, for 75%. Let's strive for excellence here. Let's strive to, you know, the gold medal here. Let's get to 90% plus. How are you going to drive that behavior when people are going to say, well, I'm relaxed

now. It's summer. Everybody seems okay. 75% of people got it. I don't need it. I don't even know if I need the second dose right now. Oh, wait. You encourage them to say the reward for you, the benefit for you is what is known. And your friend and my friend, Bruce Anderson has been talking a lot about this. The number one reason people want to get vaccinated is travel. They want their mobility. They have been held under house arrest for all intents and purposes. And their measurement of the new normal will be, can I leave? Can I go where I want to go? Can I do what I want to do? And so we want to encourage vaccinations. And I think one of the ways to do that is to reiterate to people that in doing so, here's what awaits

you at the other side of that. And that means you can move around. And I think that number will continue to drop lower and lower as more and more people are vaccinated saying, okay, but you can't hold me hostage. Because as I said, you know, in our preamble here is that I have less freedoms today than I did last summer. Based on all the lockdown rules, that makes no sense. I'm vaccinated. At least once I'm 70% of the way there. And I assume you're at least 70% of the way there, if not more. So how come we're locked up? Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Well, this is where I said earlier that I think the public is moved beyond the political rhetoric and the political agendas of, you know, keep fear. And I think part of that is just driven

by a real concern for variants. I understand the risks. You know, I'm not naive to what the variants can and cannot do. But I also think that in order to encourage the vaccinations and to get those rates up, we've got to give people a reward at the other end of it, some benefit at the other end of it. We know this is becoming endemic. We know that we're going to require, you know, screening, more testing, more tracking, more tracing. And frankly, Peter, I think you alluded to this in your earlier question that globally, too many countries have been looking inward and we've become protectionists and nationalists in our viewpoints. And as a result, what's lacking on the eve of the G7 here is international leadership on some of these issues.

What is going to be required for us to be mobile? Imagine if you're on your way to Scotland, you have to land in London first, but London has a different set of rules versus what you're going to get when you're in Scotland. You're like, well, who am I following here? And how come this QR code doesn't work over there? And why is this? So we're going to need some kind of a nexus pass or some availability of the use of technology to provide mobility. And I think almost every country is going to say, I need you to be vaccinated with both doses before you come into my country, right? Free of testing, free of quarantines. And that's what we ultimately want. So are you in favor or against vaccine passports? I'm against the term passports. I think passports implies all kinds of other things in terms of what

it connotes. I think what's more important here is recognizing that, let the experts tell us how this is. I don't want to pretend to be an epidemiologist, although we've all figured we are now one. You know, what is the right measurement here? Is it proof of vaccination or is it proof of immunity? Is it true that you're immune if you've already had COVID and apparently you've developed the antibodies? I don't know. Let the experts tell me what's necessary. All I'm saying is that there's no way anybody who's been vaccinated fully, which means twice, should be subject to hotels or quarantines or frankly, even testing, unless it's a random exercise that's being used just to keep track of things. Last question. If everything breaks your way and things like the variants are kept under control, what's realistic to think in terms of the border situation, the Canada-U.S. border, being in any fashion the way it was a year and a half, two years ago?

Well, look, it's not imminent. Let's be honest with Canadians here. It's not imminent. But what is imminent is that as the vaccine take up, as I said, it reaches a peak in the US, but I think we're going to do a lot better in Canada here soon. We can start the process of communicating to Canadians, here's the plan, here's what you're going to be allowed to do, which starts, I think, with following basically their advice of the expert panel. If you're fully vaccinated, there are no restrictions on your mobility. If you've been vaccinated once, then you'll have to take a test. If you haven't been vaccinated at all, you're going to have to quarantine or whatever. Like, let's be clear.

I'm just saying what the expert panel said, but whatever those rules are going to be, make it clear. I think you're going to see a phased in approach. I think you'll see a lot of pilot projects. You know, the premiers had a conversation last week, and the health minister was involved in this here talking about the need to not have 13 set of rules. Hallelujah. I mean, we have seen a country that's behaved like a union of provinces right now, as opposed to a true country for the last 14 months. We cannot afford that anymore. So we want to see consistency, clarity, a coherence to that plan, communicate it now. And you know what, Peter?

Canadians are a forgiving group of people. If you get it wrong and you need to move it by a few, don't worry, but put something out there to give us that hope that there's a reason for me to go out and get vaccinated now, not once, but twice. All right. Goldie, thanks so much, as always. Great to talk to you.

Great to see you, my friend. Thanks for what you're doing. Goldie Heider, who is the president and CEO of the Business Council of Canada. The topic, of course, the Canada-U.S. border. Is it time to be reopened? I'd love to hear what you have to say on this. I asked you this question about a year ago. It was overwhelming. You wanted it to remain

closed. I wonder where you're sitting on this now. Why don't you drop me a line at the Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com, the Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. A couple of other things to mention before we disappear on this Tuesday. I've talked to you about my little hometown of Stratford, Ontario.

I'm actually in Toronto today because I had some work to do in Toronto, but I'm heading back to Stratford later today. One of the schools in Stratford is known for its trade school component. It teaches students, the young men and young women of the Stratford area to deal in certain trades. It could be construction. It could be carpentry, cosmetology, I think is the word, or automotive technology. They work on cars.

They bring them in. They take them apart. They put them together. they do the whole bit. Well, I hadn't thought of this really until I saw this article in a periodical called Fast Company. And it's about the past year and the fact that so many schools have been closed and the impact that's having. And we have covered many times the discussion and the debate

surrounding teachers, surrounding students, the impact it's having on young kids. But I hadn't thought of it from this particular angle because it's not like you can have a virtual classroom in your basement on cosmetology or automotive restoration. You can't bring a car into your basement. So what's happened to that class of young people from this past year and what impact is that going to have on everything from their futures, personal futures, to the overall job market when those graduates aren't coming into

the system? Well, not good. As I said, this article is pretty good. For students learning trades like carpentry cosmetology or automotive technology in-person class time is crucial school closures hit them hard potentially setting back a key division of the labor force for this past year now they're looking primarily at the american situation but i think it's easily uh transferable to canada um COVID-19 pandemic has disrupted schools across the country, raising concerns about learning loss. For students trying to learn a trade like carpentry and masonry or welding, a report from the Association for Career and Technical Education estimated

that students nationwide, that's U.S., lost a great amount of class time. By January, when many schools nationally were starting to open, ACTE estimated that only about a third of CTE schools nationally were fully open. The rest were open only part-time or not at all. In Ohio, for example, that data won't start rolling into the state until summer to show up on school report cards in the fall last year's credentialing data didn't tell a clear story since the pandemic school courses didn't happen until mid-march and students had already banked training hours earlier

in the school year so you know here's, an industry relations manager for the Great Clips Hair Salon chain. And that's a big chain across the United States. I think there's some Great Clips salons in Canada as well. And they depend on people coming out of the hair salon training courses in trade schools. It really has been so different, said Justin Faust, an industry relations manager for Great Clips. There's going to be more training necessary. It's not that the schools aren't doing their part.

They're doing everything that they can do in the circumstances. And I guess that's the key to this whole thing. Anyway, an interesting angle to the school story that we hadn't thought of before. Here's your last point. I got a letter this morning, an email. Now, usually I save these for Friday, but timing is everything, right? This is from Joel Rivard in Ottawa. Now, we'll assume Joel has his tongue firmly in his cheek, but nevertheless, it's a great letter.

Here we go. Following last night's win of Montreal over Winnipeg, I wanted to ask you a favor. Given your track record for these playoffs, can you cheer for either the Vegas Golden Knights or the Colorado Avalanche in the next round of the playoffs? Seeing that you supported both Toronto and then Winnipeg in the playoffs so far, it makes sense that you continue to support the opponent of the Habs. I know this may be difficult given that this is Canada's team now,

but being superstitious and all, we have to keep things the way they are if we want a Canadian team to win the Stanley Cup this year, the last one since 1993. Gee, who was that, I wonder? Love the podcast. Keep up the good work, Joel. All right. Thanks, Joel. You're right.

I was cheering for Toronto, certainly in the first round. And I've watched and read little about hockey since then, but I was cheering for Winnipeg because that's one of my old hometowns. Yes, my support obviously had a little impact on the outcome of those two playoff rounds. But let's keep in mind, I'm not anti-habs. I cheer for the Leafs when they play the Habs, but I'm not anti-Habs. You know, I cheer for the Leafs when they play the Habs.

But I'm not anti-Habs. If you will recall, I said and I tweeted and I've commented often that in my view the best goalie in the world is Carey Price. And there's no doubt that Carey Price won that first round against Toronto. It was like no contest. And that's not to say the Toronto goalie, Jack Campbell, was bad because he wasn't. He was very good.

But Carey Price was outstanding. And that's why he is the best goalie in the world. And there's no question about that. And only a fool would argue that point. Sorry, Andrew. So there you go. Obviously, I'll be cheering for the Canadian team as we move forward in these. As I said before this all started, this was the Canada Cup,

this whole North Division playoffs. And the winner of the Canada Cup this year was the Montreal Canadiens. So let's cheer for Montreal as they go forward into the Final Four. It may take a while because the other teams are all still playing, trying to get out of their divisions. So Montreal will have lots of time to rest and recover. Right? Right? Okay.

That wraps her up for today. Tomorrow, Wednesday, hump day. It's the big day. It's the day for Smoke, Mirrors, and the Truth with Bruce Anderson. And no, we don't have a topic yet. But by tomorrow, we will have. I think Bruce got his second shot yesterday. At least he

was planned to. I think I'm getting my second shot today. We'll see what kind of shape we're in tomorrow. Stay safe, stay well, be kind out there. I'm Peter Mansbridge. This has been The Bridge.

Thanks for listening. Talk to you again in 24 hours. Thank you.