The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Science Sam on The Bridge

Episode Date: January 4, 2022

As a new year starts with the same old story dominant on our minds, a new take on where we are.  And it comes from one of the big names on Canadian social media.  "Science Sam" is her social media handle and Dr. Samantha Yammine is her real name. You are in for a treat as she helps us navigate this story from a different perspective than perhaps you've heard elsewhere. The launch of a new year with a new voice on The Bridge.

He's back! That's right, Peter Mansbridge here, just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge, the kick off our first week. I know it's Tuesday. Yesterday was a holiday, so we took it. But today we're back to work. I hope your break was a good one in spite of everything that's going on. It is a strange time. It is a strange time. It's a difficult time. I don't know about you, but COVID really hit home to me

over this last couple of weeks because, you know, while we've all known people or been aware of people who were in our kind of circle who've had COVID over the last couple of years. There was kind of a torrent of it in my circle over the last couple of weeks. A lot of people who I know got COVID. In some cases, they got it pretty bad. In other cases, it was this alleged mild thing,

and we're going to talk about that a little bit today. But it was difficult, and it struck home, and it's left us all kind of trying to figure out what the heck is going on. Will we ever see the end of this? And those are questions that we're all asking. But aside from that, you know, we had planned to go overseas over these holidays. Everything was booked.

Flights were arranged. All of that. And at the last minute, like so many others, we had to cancel. It just looked too, I'm not sure if risky is the right word, but what was the right word was confusing. You know, what it was going to be like leaving Canada, going through airports, arriving in another country, going through airports, dealing with the testing situation, all of that.

And we just pulled the plug and had a quiet, comfortable, kind of hunkered down holiday season here in Stratford, Ontario. And it was fine, although it was quiet. You know, we're used to having kind of big holiday celebrations with family and those close to us. But that didn't happen this year. It was quiet. But we're through it and we're into a new year.

And who knows how this one's going to unfold we all have our hopes but we're confronted with a situation that once again i pull out that the c-word confusing and so that's what i want to try and get at today as you know on the bridge uh over the last couple of years, we've been lucky enough to be joined by some great experts on the COVID story and who've helped guide us. Today, somebody new, new for us, new for me.

She's known in the social media world as Science Sam. Her handle is HeyScienceSam. She's a neuroscientist, and she has a huge following. She's kind of a rock star out there in the science world in Canada. She's got over 100,000 followers on Instagram, and that's a big deal. You know, it's usually actual rock stars who have those kind of numbers. She's a rock star in science, and she's young, dynamic, loves to talk. And I heard about her and I followed her. And I reached out in the last couple of days to see whether she'd be willing. And she was gung-ho.

Loved the idea of having a chance to talk on the bridge and talk about this situation we're in. So we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, though, Science Sam. I think you're going to enjoy this when we come back. Okay, so who is Science Sam? Well, her name, her real name is Samantha Yumin. Dr. Samantha Yumin.

Dr. Sam. And as I said, she's a neuroscientist. She's not an epidemiologist. And as we get into this conversation, that's where we started. Because some people might wonder, well, you know, what really does she know about all this? So I thought, let's get her on the record on that first, before we delve into the bigger story and some of the kind of issues that come up as we talk about COVID, as we talk about the pandemic.

So here's our conversation. Well, listeners to this podcast know that we've been real lucky over the last couple of years. We've been, you know, three or four epidemiologists, well-known ones in Canada, who've helped us navigate all this. But I'm really looking forward to talking to you today, even though you're not an epidemiologist. You're a neuroscientist. So you better explain that one to me, first of all, why you're you're comfortable talking about this pandemic and this virus and and all that goes with it um as a neuroscientist yeah thank you my my training

uh what i went to school for what i got my phd in was in neuroscience and cell and molecular biology so basically i'm the type of doctor who couldn't help you if you were in any sort of crisis, but I could tell you what might be happening inside of your cells, and what the millions of proteins in your cells might be doing at any given moment. And I'd have a lot of fun having that conversation. So my expertise comes more as in the form of a general biology experience. When it comes to the pandemic, I've been operating as a science communicator, which means that I don't share my personal opinions. I don't share my own interpretations of the data because I'm not qualified to do that. But what I do is use

my scientific training to find the right experts, evaluate what is the current consensus, and communicate it to people to try to be that bridge between the experts, the epidemiologists, the virologists, and people who maybe their last science class was in high school, or maybe they never really liked science at all. I want to be able to connect them with those experts and be that middle person so that everyone can participate and feel empowered to make evidence-based decisions. Okay, well, let's try and tick off at least one of those boxes here by trying to evaluate what we can about the current situation. Because I got to tell you, I'm confused.

I think a lot of us are confused. We thought we knew where we were at after a couple of years of this. But these days, it seems awfully easy to get confused. You know, on the one hand, they tell you to, you know, look at the case numbers. On the other hand, they tell you don't look at the case numbers. Then they say, you know, look at hospitalizations. Don't look at hospitalizations.

You know, kids should go to school. Kids shouldn't go to school. I mean, it's all very confusing two years into this we thought we thought after a couple of years we'd be pretty well knowing what we were doing and and comfortable with whatever path we were on but right now there there does seem to be a great deal of confusion at a time when there are you know it's not a pretty scene out there. Yeah, I mean, I'm right there with you. It's overwhelming. We've heard many of the experts, including at the WHO, call it an infodemic.

And I just want to pause and just say what that really is. It's just an avalanche of information, both true and false information. And I think we forget that the infodemic also involves being bombarded with information, even that which is true. And so that feeds into that confusion we're all feeling, that overwhelming, like, not more of this. Why are we still talking about this? It's just because there's so much information coming at us in every single way. And it does feel like it's been changing. Although I will say in the last year, I think things have been pretty consistent. The unfortunate thing, we've had a consistent

understanding, but unfortunately, not consistent policy and not consistent acting on that information. And that's why things seem to still be, I don't know, tumbling down a well of despair because our policies keep changing because they've never really been great. So we're kind of just circling around what we should be doing instead of actually doing it. And that's why we're in this ever-changing landscape. But I would say right now, the complicated piece is certainly that we have this new variant, which I think has only been around for just over a month, the Omicron variant. And it's unique in how transmissible it is and maybe even in how it presents in someone in terms of the illness. So a lot of people throwing around the word mild, but I don't want to do that because I'm not really convinced yet.

There are still a lot of open questions. And certainly with how transmissible it is, it isn't mild at the population level with what it's doing to our hospitals. And so I think that's a major variable that has changed things and added to the confusion. And now the context of vaccinations too. We have many people who are fully vaccinated with two doses, but at various stages since their last dose, whether from one month or it's been six months since your last dose, your protection against certain levels of illness are different. And then there's the extra heterogeneity of whether or not you're boosted. The extra what? What was that word you just used? The extra what? Oh, I don't even, variability, I think. There's more variation. The point is,

there are so many different variables right now. There's the variant, there's when you had your last dose, whether you've had a booster dose, your age, and all of that just comes together into a lot of messiness in trying to interpret the data and apply it to our lives. And a lot of policy that's been lagging behind and leaving us fending for ourselves. And I think that's at least where I'm confused. Let me back you up a little bit to this issue about policy, because I'm not sure whether you're pointing your finger at at any particular province or country or government or just are you suggesting sort of generally there's been it's been unclear as to what kind of policy we're trying to follow as as a people to deal with this I I think this is really important, actually,

and I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to clarify. I think our policy has failed at every level. At the international level, we have not had global equity of vaccine distribution. That is why we are still in this situation, without a doubt. We haven't equitably shared vaccines, and that's a major issue, and we can't expect this to end until we figure that out. At the national level, we've seen multiple countries, including where we're both based in Canada, where we've had a failure of coordination across the country, a failure of communication between the feds and each of the provinces. And then within each of the country, a failure of communication between the feds and each of the provinces. And then within each of the provinces, there has been such variation from place to place,

coast to coast, in how people are reacting, what types of policies are implemented, when they lock down, what metrics they're looking at, how they're collecting the case data. So we've had multiple failures at every level of policy. And I didn't even get into municipal yet, actually. I see what you mean. Trudeau, the elder, Pierre Trudeau, used to say in the 70s and the early 80s that we were, Canada was a country of shopping centers where it was different in each shopping center you went to. And that's kind of the same, that's what he was talking about in terms of the provinces.

And we're seeing it so clearly on this. Now, we're all dealing with the same virus, and yet we all have different policies as to how to deal with it, which doesn't seem to make sense as a country i mean we're i'm not sure how alone we are in that it seems that most other countries that we tend to follow have generally the same although our american neighbors have you know they're they're kind of different as well but um but it must make the whole issue that much harder to manage when there's such distinctly different policies in different provinces of the same country. Yeah, and that's the part that adds to the confusion

because people in Ontario will look at what's happening in BC and say, well, why is it different here? Is it not the same virus? Are these not the same vaccines? Why are we giving boosters to different people, for example, was the conversation a month ago, right? So it adds to the confusion. Sometimes it makes sense, sorry, to have different policies based on how bad things are locally. And so you might have different risk tolerance if you are in the Maritimes where there's very low incidence of COVID versus if you're in a city that has so

much COVID. So sometimes those variations from place to place make sense, but other times they don't. And the thing that's really frustrated me is that we've been watching what's happened in one country and been like, oh, that's bad, but then acting like it's not going to happen here. And then we've had to relearn the lesson. That happened in the summer with Delta. While India was in a major crisis, you saw the messaging in the U.S. be all about no more masks and go out and have fun if you're vaccinated. And they were really trying to push people to kind of get back to mingling. Meanwhile, India was in a major crisis from Delta. And lo and behold, in a few months, Delta hit the States, and they had to backtrack a lot

of those things. And the way that we don't learn from other countries, even though we're more globally connected than ever before, is the part that I have no words for anymore, because we just keep watching. It's Groundhog Day, basically Basically what happens there is probably going to happen here, especially if we're ignoring what that place should have done. You know, I, I find it incredibly puzzling to watch how our two countries, Canada and the U S are dealing with this right now,

like over this weekend, this past weekend, you know, hockey games in Canada, are dealing with this right now. Like over this weekend, this past weekend, you know, hockey games in Canada, or at least many of them, fans weren't allowed. So you play the game, but it's an empty arena. Then you watch, at the same time that we're doing that, you're watching in the States, and they're packed, college games,

there's 100, thousand people at them they're dancing and singing and the bands are playing and the and the teams are out on the field playing you know and heavy contact football and and it's as if there's nothing going on like they're the this is if there's no virus sort of passing around, you know, in the atmosphere at those games. And yet it's it's so different here. And we're all faced with the same dilemma. And yet the treatment is so, so different. It's totally puzzling. You know, you watch this and it makes no sense to you.

Yeah. you'd watch this and it makes no sense to you yeah and of course there are clear differences culturally between the u.s and canada there are differences in the health care capacity i would say one thing canadians kind of forget is we have a much more fragile health care system we don't have as much wiggle room we don't have as much buffer. So our healthcare system can collapse much sooner with a much lower level of COVID in the community. And I think we kind of forget that. And then we have very different population level vaccination rates, but still we shouldn't be that drastically different behaviorally, despite those variables. So I agree with you. It's puzzling and yet not at all surprising.

Okay. I want to ask you a couple of things in particular that have puzzled me. I've tried some of this out with some of our epidemiologist friends. Isaac Bogoch is used to me throwing this question at him. So let me try it on you and you you tell me what what your answer is you know it's been a hundred years since anything like this happened in the uh in the poorly uh described spanish flu because it didn't start didn't start in spain yet they've had to handle that and still handle that name hung to it ever since but it was roughly two two and a half years long they didn't have anywhere and millions of people died far more many than have died so far during this pandemic they didn't have the kind of uh advanced science that we have today and yet it seemed you know it was basically wrapping it up now after a couple of years

we're we don't seem to be in any any position to be saying we're close to wrapping this up why is it taking so much longer here to deal with this when we've got a hundred years of better technology better science better abilities to be able to deal with something like this just a very light question yeah um i mean for starters we have different technology um which also lets us track it in different ways, which also is the reason why we have much more travel and we're more interconnected and things are much less isolated. I think we can't forget about that. I think the extent to which people travel and are mobile is much greater than it was back then. And I think that's got to be a major contributing factor. But the other thing that really strikes me is, well, we have so many more tools and we're really lucky. I don't want to

dismiss how important the tools like vaccines and better healthcare and better treatments as well. Those are incredible innovations of the last hundred years. We're not always using them to the best of our advantage. That's not the major driver of why things are still happening, or the major difference between that pandemic and this one, but I think it plays a big role that we haven't seen equitable distribution of vaccines, of testing, of things like paid sick days. We have the tools, but we're not necessarily using them in the most efficacious way. And I don't know what, actually, this was interesting and something I should look up. I don't know.

I'm sure there were similar inequities back then as well, but they probably weren't being logged or looked at. And I think now we see the inequities, we're studying them, and we're still not acting on them. It's probably only gotten worse. I also wonder, yes, we have the tools, but are we using them to the best of our advantage, enough to overcompensate for all of the things that we have now

that also make this worse, like the added travel and mobilization? But otherwise, I don't know it's also a different virus and um that's a that's another that's another thing that could be you know we can't assume that it'll always just be two and a half years although i still try to remain optimistic um that's hard this week it is hard this week and you know it's funny because that's not funny but it's odd because so many of us were feeling not that long ago that you really could see the light at the end of the tunnel and maybe some people still can see that given the the nature of this particular variant but it's it's so hard to when you're confronted with the kind of numbers we're having. You know, you start to hear,

and you never heard this until, you know, recently, really in that last month, as you say, since Omicron kind of came on the scene, but you start to hear now, and you hear it from, you know, a lot of reasonable people this this sense that you know what we're all going to get it anyway let's just get it over with let's just get it and move on and that that sort of goes hand in hand with this whole issue about well you know it's supposed to be milder and you know that that mild word i I'm like you, I have trouble with, especially when I hear some of the people, some of whom are friends, who have a supposedly mild case.

It doesn't sound very mild to me. It doesn't sound like much fun at all. But this phrasing by some people that, you know, we're all going to get it, so let's just get it and move on. What do you say to that? My answer to that is, you might be right. We might all get it at some point, but it doesn't have to all be at once. We don't need to all, just because we may all be exposed to COVID at some point, we don't need to make that happen all at the same time because there are devastating consequences to that. We cannot forget that the timing of things matters. Getting COVID when we have no cases and tons of healthcare capacity, you can probably get

great treatment and hopefully have a good outcome. We saw deaths go low. I don't want us to lose that perspective. Just because we are in a bad wave right now and things are dire right now. Don't forget that things weren't so bad not that long ago, because they can deal with me in a few months, but they can't right now. And if I can avoid getting it right now, I'm going to, to help out my friends and colleagues who are beyond their limit and don't have space for me, both actually in terms of a bed, in terms of staff, in terms of treatments that they have available in every sense of that. What's the most commonly asked question you get? It depends on the day.

Today, this week, it's, is this ever going to end? That's a pretty common theme. Is this ever going to end? That's a pretty common theme. Is this ever going to end? My answer, by the way, hasn't changed in two years. If listeners who are peaking in their anxiety right now are interested, the answer is yes. The question mark attached to that is when? It's going to end. It's going to end. How much trauma and death and disease are we going to tolerate to get to that end? How hard are we going to make it on ourselves, really? That's the part that I don't know. I don't know the timing and I don't know what it's going to take to get there. But I do

know that we haven't locked in our history yet there's hope and I know many people who are really going to be pushing this month for major strides on global vaccine equity and if you are like me like this needs to end now then join in and make noise about that because that's the best path forward. We hear a lot about the fatigue factor and I think we're all confronted with that. How close that comes to the impact it's having on our mental health becomes another issue. You know, after a couple of years, are you seeing it? Are you seeing it more evident than perhaps you thought it was going to be even, you know, a few months ago? The mental health component, you mean?

Yeah. Yeah. From, you know, from fatigue to mental health. I mean, there's kind of a line that goes from one to the other there. Yeah. The fatigue is interesting. it's definitely palpable uh i know people i'm sick of it it's been it's been i don't even know how long a hundred years it feels that we've been talking about this i've been having to to think about it um and i all have

medical anxiety so for me like my limit was day one, you know, it's, it's been very hard, uh, psychologically, personally, and professionally in every way. Um, and I know that others feel it too. So the fatigue is very real, but I also think people are a little more motivated when things get worse. They're also, we also realize we have to do more. And I think that that helps. I think how fatigued we feel and what we can do, we have to remember are not always, we can always push a little more. And I think people are really stepping up and I really want to thank them for that. And I wish that we had more support in that. When it comes to mental health, I do want to say it's a term that gets thrown around a lot.

And it's getting thrown around a lot this week because we're hearing in some provinces of restrictions being added and some return to some level of lockdown. And the first thing a lot of people say, it's been in my inbox a lot this week is, well, what about the impact this has on mental health? You're locking down because you don't want people to face severe outcomes from COVID, but what about severe outcomes from mental health? And I just want to remind folks that there's a false dichotomy to say that lockdowns are the only thing that cause mental health challenges. Losing someone from a disease that's now preventable will have a severe impact on your mental health. Having long COVID and being disabled for a long time and not getting the help that you need could impact your mental health. Being isolated in a long-term care home could impact mental health. Being a child

who loses your parents to COVID because they're a frontline worker is going to impact that child's mental health. And so I just want us to remember we're in a pandemic in a society that doesn't necessarily value every life equally and value our health, it is inevitable that it's going to be hard on our mental health. And I want us to remember the mental health also of healthcare workers who are burnt out and being asked to step up yet again. So I just want us to remember this is hard on everyone right now. And the cause of the mental health challenges isn't necessarily the public health measures, the lockdowns, the things like that. It's the fact that we live in a society

that doesn't prioritize our well-being. And I want us to keep that perspective and point fingers in the right direction. That's pretty scary stuff when you phrase it like that that we're in a society that doesn't prioritize that issue and how it's confronting us i mean that's a sad statement to have to make yeah i'm i'm sorry to say it i'm sorry to to be that downer um but it's true we've i hear a lot of people when we have a lockdown say, well, what about mental health? But to me, it's an absurd perspective to not think that, yes, okay, I cannot go do the enjoyable recreational things I'd like to do that are very important for my well-being. I want to be clear on that. It's important for me to be able to do those things and get a break. But my colleagues in the hospitals are beyond breaking point. They are not

okay. And they haven't been. My friends who have lost family members, the people that I've lost in my family, like, how is that okay, either? We're all struggling right now. And I don't want us to take the red herring and point fingers at what's because we're in another lockdown. No, it's because we've had to go into another lockdown because our government hasn't put the right things and protections in place to support us before getting to this point, because they wanted everyone to get back to work instead of really protecting people. That's the real issue. And we shouldn't take the distraction bait from the real issues. And that is sad, but it also gives me hope because it tells me that we haven't exhausted all of the options and all of the ways out. It means that there's a lot of work to do, but it doesn't mean that we have no options.

We haven't done the best options yet. And following those is the hope that I cling to and that I really work towards. What's the best option we haven't taken yet? Yeah, it's a mix of things. It's, I mean, we're still talking about proper paid sick days that are accessible and easy to implement, low barrier to accessing that. We're talking about access to proper protections like N95s, like rapid testing, access to testing in general, child care that's affordable, especially for people who are frontline workers who can't deal with their kids in virtual school again. Having proper ventilation in classrooms and other indoor settings that are higher risk. These things that our experts, the experts you've had on the show

have been asking for for months. We haven't, again, that's the hopeful part is we haven't done everything we can. And so that tells me that we're not stuck forever. We're stuck until we do those things. But that means that there's a way out and we just need to come together to get to that route. This has been fascinating i i just

got a i got one or two more um what are we you know we've been asked to do a lot just as ordinary citizens to try to protect ourselves and to protect others uh around us and those who we you know bump into in the in the course of a day and whether that's you know getting vaccines and boosters and and you know wearing masks and staying distant and all that um what's something we tend to forget to do that we that we could be doing that we're not doing. Wow. People have done so much. So I want to acknowledge that first and foremost. It's been a lot of burden on individuals for a systemic crisis. One thing I would, can I say two quick things I'd love people to do? One is, it's so cliche, but take breaks and take care of yourself and put your phone down when you can. I did that this weekend and it was great.

It was great just to not consume news for just for a second. I love news. I know you love news, but we do need a break now and then. Sure. Get some fresh air, get that perspective. And the second thing that we can all do is be really mindful of the time you spend online and how you spend your time online. Remember that every pause during a scroll through the newsfeed, every double tap, every retweet, that's a form of social currency. So please be mindful how you spend it. Spend it on the opinions and experts that matter that are working towards ending this. Spend it on positivity and messages that make you feel good. Because I think we're also in a stage right now where

there's a lot of chaos online. There's a lot of disinformation, misinformation. And one small thing we could all do is to try to pump our news feeds with things that are productive, things that make us feel good, and that contribute to the collective well-being, whether through positivity or through realistic things and advocacy that need to happen. What's the last thing you read or heard that made you feel good? I watched the Harry Potter 20th anniversary over the weekend. I'm a shameless Harry Potter nerd. That made me feel really good and gave me a much needed laugh because it was so mindless and great yeah we could all use a little mindless a few moments couldn't we sorry it's not something more more uh more fancy but that's okay that's where i'm at right now you were probably joined by a lot of people who are trying to uh you, find that outlet that gives them some comfort and reminds them of, you know, better times, obviously,

but also can give them a sense that because we've had better times in the past, we can have better times in the future. I mean, we've all been through, most of us in our lives, we've been through some very difficult times, nothing like this, but they've been difficult you know it you know it could you know could have been uh you know an international conflict could have been 9-11 could have been the financial crisis could have been you know a you know a forest fire in our in our homes um like in northern alberta or any number of different things we've all been through difficult times and when you're in the midst of them,

it feels like it's never going to get better, but it gets better. You know, there is going to be another side to this at some point. You know, we all wish it would be soon. But keeping that in mind one hopes gets us partly at least gets us through this but there are other positives and you've named them the brilliance and the dedication

and the suffering of our frontline healthcare workers and when we say frontline healthcare workers there's so many people attached to that it's not just the people in the hospitals frontline healthcare workers. And when we say frontline healthcare workers, there's so many people attached to that. It's not just the people, you know, in the hospitals or in the paramedic units or what have you. I mean, there's so many people who are part of that process, sort of out there while we're, you know, huddled in our homes, who are the heroes of this day.

And, you know, hopefully there will be a time when we can properly celebrate with them because it's, as you've described so well, it's been really, really tough for them on a lot of different levels. Listen, once again, thanks so much. If there's anything else you want to say, any last word, now's the time to say it.

I just want to say thank you for having me here. I grew up watching you on TV. My sister and I used to pretend to be you and give the daily news update from school to our parents. So this is, it's the small moments like these that are the highlights, the way that this has brought many people together who might've not otherwise met, which is one of the good things in these dark times that I hold on to. And so thank you for, for making my week for sure.

Thank you for making mine. I really appreciate it. And, and we'll do it again. It's great to listen to you talk about this issue. So thank you. Thank you. Science Sam.

Dr. Samantha, you mean. Now you know why she's popular. Because she's really engaging to listen to. She doesn't talk outside of her lane. She talks in her lane, but in a way that helps us all understand, you know, from a different perspective, where we are,

what the situation is, and perhaps some of the ways to consider to help us through this particular period, especially at a time when we are going through this, it's never going to end. I might as well get it over with. There are different ways of looking at this. And having Science Sam with us today has been great. So you can follow her. She's on both Twitter and Instagram. Instagram is her big vehicle and she has lots of videos on

Instagram. So you can catch that up, but we will have her on again, you know, if she's willing, and hopefully she will be. Big week ahead, right? And I'd love to hear from you. Remember how to write to The Bridge? It's the Peter Mansbridge. No, that's my website, thepetermansbridge.com to write to the bridge it's the mansbridge podcast at gmail.com the mansbridge podcast at gmail.com i'd love to hear your thoughts as we head into a

new year keep them short right that's the way to get to get them used on the air. I get a lot of long, long emails, and some of them are fascinating. And as you know, I have read the occasional long email. But kind of looking for that kind of paragraph, that four or five lines that can sum up your feelings on anything you've heard today or just generally as we move into 2022. But we're in it now. Can you believe it? We're in 2022. It'll be 200 years before there's another year with this many twos in it. Sorry, another year where there'll be more than this many twos in it. Sorry, another year where there will be more than this many twos in it. There's a piece of useless information for you. Anyway, time to wrap her up.

Back tomorrow. Back all week. We're back. The bridge is back. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening. And, of course, we'll talk to you again in 24 hours.