The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Smoke, Mirrors and The Truth -- Kathleen Petty Joins Bruce And Me For This Year End "Hits And Misses"Episode.

Episode Date: December 23, 2020

It's long but fun. Lots of questions and some very different answers!

Thank you. is the Bridge Daily. I am Peter Mansbridge, but on Wednesdays, we have the podcast within a podcast, Smoke, Mirrors and the Truth. And this is a special Smoke, Mirrors and the Truth for this Wednesday. Bruce is in Ottawa, of course, and we've got a special guest in Calgary.

Kathleen Petty is joining us. And Kathleen is not unfamiliar to Bruce and I. I've worked with Kathleen, obviously, for more than a few years at the CBC. And Bruce and Kathleen were on the old Ad Issue panel at different times over the last 10 years or so. So, Kathleen, it's great to have you with us. I know you're busy at the CBC in Calgary these days, as always. But you are also the host of West of Center, which is a really important new podcast,

been out there for a couple of months, I guess now, but important because of why. Tell me about it. I acknowledge that they dust off the old folks every once in a while who have been around for a considerable length of time, which you kind of alluded to. And we found, Peter, during the last election, there was this sort of very intense interest

in what was going on in Alberta. So we established a pop-up bureau that we called West of Centre. And that was sort of a title that I've been working with for a long time because I've was sort of a title that I've been working with for a long time, because I've always sort of considered Alberta in particular as being sort of West of Centre. And you get the reference, right? The centre of the universe being not here. And you know where that is. Central Canada, for sure. And so we just thought that there was so much going on in this

province. And there was so much misunderstanding about sort of what made the place tick, what the zeitgeist of the province was, that it was time to start talking not just to Albertans, but to all Canadians and in some form post-election, especially after we saw what happened to Liberal-Led here, not that that was any big surprise, that we wanted to start telling our stories from, you know, a very decidedly Western point of view and an Alberta point of view. And I was, as you know, born and raised in Calgary, even though I spent seven glorious years in Ottawa, which I love. But, you know, this place is in my blood.

So they figured they'd dust off the old girl and put her back to work on air because I hadn't done a lot of on-air stuff after I left Ottawa and came here to be executive producer of news. And so here we go. We started almost a year ago. And I can tell you there hasn't been a shortage of topics and issues to explore. So it's a lot of fun. And I want to just thank you for having the opportunity because The Bridge has been such a hugely successful podcast.

And you've been so good about helping promote West of Centre. And it has been noted and it is very much appreciated. Thank you. center and it has been noted and it is very much appreciated thank you well congratulations on western center and those who were working with you on it because uh it's an important podcast within the kind of canadian system it's being recognized that way now because it's a it's worked its way up the charts it does very well in terms of uh listeners and reaction to it so good for you but we're going to put you to work anyway here today. Got it.

Along with Bruce. It's not really a quiz as such, but it's kind of a sense of the hits and misses of the year under different categories. So we're going to do that. I've got to make sure Bruce is on the line. You are there, my friend? Here.

I'm looking forward to this conversation. It's great to hear Kathleen's voice again. Yeah, and it's great to talk to you again, Bruce. I've missed here. I'm looking forward to this conversation. It's great to hear Kathleen's voice again. Yeah, and it's great to talk to you again, Bruce. I've missed you. I've missed you both. So I'm glad we can have a reunion on this. So Kathleen's in Calgary. Bruce is in Ottawa.

I'm in the center of the universe, Stratford, Ontario. So let's get going. And let's agree, for starters, that when you're kind of going through the year in terms starting with kind of the biggest story of the year, I think we all agree what the biggest story of the year is. It was related in one way or another to the pandemic. So let's kind of not set it list for the moment and deal with what we think is in effect the second biggest story of the year or the biggest story of the year other than the pandemic and we'll start let's start with Kathleen. All right so being able to start it off on home field advantage I am actually going to say it's Alberta. I suppose that's predictable, but I'm not sure the country understands just what's going on here because it's a transition. It's a transformation, but in many measures, it really is existential because I think Albertans are now struggling with trying to understand what their

place is in the country and what their future holds. And there are a whole bunch of question marks around that. And of course, the pandemic, as you rightly point out, is sort of the spine of sort of every story because everything is influenced by that. And Jason Kenney likes to talk about all the whammies. I don't know if it's a double or a triple whammy. I think we're up to triple. But obviously, oil and gas has had a terrible year. We have, you know, sort of a growing, I don't think it's big, it's sort little cringy, but we do have a separatist sentiment that is certainly influencing the conversation here and policies. And we've got a fair deal panel, which I'm not sure how much of the country has paid attention to, but it really is a panel that came up with any number of recommendations to establish far greater economy for Alberta. And

many of the measures, or at least some of them, equalization for sure, will be the subject of a referendum in the next municipal elections in October of 2021. And then in the midst of that, we have Jason Kenney, who really performed a political miracle to combine two parties and turn them into one and then become premier of the province, who's really struggling in the polls, in part because of COVID, but in part because he ran on the economy, on jobs and pipelines and the economy is not doing so well. And the deficit is at $21 billion and counting. And he's been criticized quite widely for his reaction to COVID. So, you know,

what could transpire over the year ahead sort of laying the groundwork that we've seen this year, I think could be, well, I don't think. I know it's going to be a big Canadian story, but I'm not sure how much of the country is actually aware of, I guess, the unsettled nature of the politics and economics of this province. I think those are all legitimate points. And the last one is one that could apply to many parts of the country. We tend at times not to look beyond our own borders in terms of the troubles

that any particular region may be having. Anyway, let's move on. That's all good. Bruce, what's your pick beyond the pandemic? Well, first of all, I just want to say I think Kathleen's points are really interesting. I've been studying Alberta opinion, rest of Canada opinion, if I can put it that way, for a long time. I do think we're at a different point in the relationship than we've

been before. I do think that it's fair to say that the rest of Canada maybe doesn't understand Alberta, but also, how to put this, I think that there's not that much interest in the rest of Canada in hearing Alberta on some issues because of the way that some Alberta politicians have presented the position of the province. Recent years, climate change being one of those issues. And I think it's fair to say that there's a divergence of both values and interests, not a complete divergence, but enough that if politicians are kind of rubbing these tectonic plates together, they can create some reaction that's not very helpful. So thanks, Kathleen, for raising that. I think that is a really interesting issue and probably will be one that's even more prominent going forward. But for me, the biggest issue besides the pandemic, the thing that has kind of kept me awake at night is the fact that the world's biggest,

here to for maybe most successful democracy is in crisis. I think that there isn't a day goes by that I don't look at politics in the United States and say, it seems completely broken. There are those days when some things go well, but even on those days when some things go well, other things go terribly. And there are more days when things seem to be going terribly. And I don't want divided rather than unified around a set of ideas, less informed perhaps about the choices available to them as a country, and more kind of obnoxious in the way that they prosecute their politics, left versus right and right versus left, more convinced that their democratic institutions can't be trusted,

more determined to try to bend their judicial system so that it becomes an arm of politics. And then yesterday, you know, just another example that is so disheartening to watch of President Trump rolling out the first of what looked like it's going to be a series of truly obnoxious pardons, including of people that you would look at and go, what is the value for the country of that? What does that say about America's view of what's right and what's wrong? So I grew up always thinking that America had flaws, but always thinking it had a democracy that worked pretty year at least, it all started with the death of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, as it did with many others, incidents involving police in different parts of the United States

and, quite frankly, in Canada as well. This was all exacerbated by COVID, but really it's been happening around the world, the birth of this movement and the reaction to the movement and the demonstrations involved with the movement. But COVID, despite what people say, is not the great equalizer. That's what it was supposed to be, at least when it started. We started to think of that as the great equalizer, That's what it was supposed to be, at least when it started. We started to

think of that as the great equalizer, but it wasn't. It has exposed the inequalities in our systems in a big way. So yes, COVID is the biggest story, but BLM, Black Lives Matter, may be the most important and profound of the year, depending on where this all leads, and not just for black Americans, but for people of color and for indigenous people across North America. And through it all, it caused, or perhaps it should have caused, all of us, every single one of us, to examine our own biases, racism, and our own behaviors, and as a result, be better. So that's where I am.

In a lot of ways, Peter, I know you wanted to talk about the most unexpected story of the year, and actually Black Lives Matter and the reaction to George Floyd was my pick for that because as you point out the racism and systemic racism has always been there but it hasn't been sort of recognized and it hasn't been you know something that we talked about with with any sort of commitment and laughing understanding, deep understanding that it wasn't something to sort of cover and move on from, that this is a challenge that all people must confront and be honest with themselves about where they have fallen short. And so in many ways, it's such a personal story as well. But it's an issue that I think a lot of people are struggling

with. Some I think are doing a better job than others are struggling with it. But as you point out, you know, again, we connect back to COVID and the pandemic, and it laid bare the inequities, many inequities that I don't know that any of us really recognize. And I'll just go back to what Bruce was talking about when he talks about the U.S. being more divided than it's ever been. I don't know that it is more divided. I just think we're more aware of it. I do think that, you know, we were probably kidding ourselves. And one of the things I've learned as a journalist is that we're pretty good at covering the symptoms of things. We're not very good at figuring out what sort of the core issue, dilemma, the core contradictions,

the sort of the core problem is. We're always sort of addressing the symptoms, and we're not going deeper. You know, one of the areas that I worry about in terms of, you know, the whole movement around Black Lives Matter, in terms of, you know, the whole movement around Black Lives Matter. And it is, you know, obviously it's not just Black Lives Matter. It goes beyond that. But my concern is while this was a moment in time, especially the summer of 2019 on this issue, and everybody seemed to step forward, or just about everybody seemed to step forward that they're going to make a difference, this is going to change. And what I worry about is that it just becomes another moment in time, the summer of 2019.

It was all going to change, but did it? I hope I'm wrong on that, but I worry about that. But Kathleen, you neatly moved it into the next category, which was the unexpected story of the year, by placing that one as your unexpected story of the year. Bruce, what's yours? And remember, if we're going to get through this list, and I include myself in this, we better make our points sharper and quicker. But fire away, Bruce, on your most unexpected.

Well, I actually did have two. One of them was Black Lives Matter. I'm not going to get into that because you guys have covered that thought. I agree with what you said. I think the question of the momentum remains to be seen, but I think more was made this year than we've seen in a long, long time. More was revealed, too. stopped, that everybody was going to down tools, who were trying to push towards reduction of carbon emissions, innovation with clean technologies, investment driving towards those organizations and researchers and innovators that were trying to find ways to build a next

generation lower carbon economy. And that didn't happen. And I think, you know, it's perhaps the most encouraging thing for me when I think about the major crises that kind of beset the world right now. And there's certainly no shortage of them. Climate is right up there for me. And it has been for the last several years. And I've been watching with some kind of hopefulness all of the momentum that has developed in recent years.

And even in the last election campaign, where the Conservatives made opposition to carbon pricing central to their strategy, they said that if you elect us, bill number one will be to repeal carbon pricing. And they did that because they thought that was going to be overwhelmingly popular. That was going to be the ticket to success in the election campaign. And the Liberals were a little bit apprehensive about whether or not they were going to be able to carry that on their shoulders and convince Canadians that they deserved to be reelected. And, you know, the election turned out to be about a bunch of other things.

It didn't turn out to be very much about that and the momentum has continued in terms of the movement of capital the shifting habits of business and the reorganization of the automotive sector the innovations in terms of technology i'm very hopeful by by the way, for Alberta that it can kind of shake itself loose of this. On the one hand, we see a transition coming around the world. On the other hand, we just want to blame Justin Trudeau for it. It's a global phenomenon. Public opinion in Alberta says we see it as a global phenomenon and we want to be part of the next generation of opportunity. I think they need political leadership that kind of encourages them to go that way.

But everywhere else in the country so far, we see lots of momentum, and certainly around the world, we see gigantic momentum. And I read something just this morning about the movement of capital and the projection going forward. So I'm encouraged by that. I'm going to give you a short snapper for my answer on the most unexpected story of the year. Murder hornets.

That was unexpected. I didn't see that one coming. I mean, we should have seen it coming, you know, 2020 and all. Well, if you do see it coming, hi. Exactly. I never thought we'd be talking about murder ordinance. So if you had that on your 2020 news bingo card, you should get a medal of some sort. Okay, here we go.

These are kind of short snappers, so make your case. And Bruce, you start us here. Who was the most overrated Canadian of the year? Well, you know, suddenly I don't think Canadians overrate anybody as a general rule. But if I had to give an answer to that, I would say Jason Kenney. I think that Jason Kenney, I knew in Ottawa. He came out of Ottawa, went into Alberta as somebody who was considered to be one of the smartest, the most clever, most thoughtful conservatives that you could find anywhere in Canada.

And I just don't think that his performance in that role, notwithstanding the fact that he's dealt with the headwinds that Kathleen mentioned of economic and oil price and pandemic and so on, it doesn't seem to me that it has been what I would have expected. And I think what a lot of people would have expected in terms of that kind of discipline in the mind and the thoughtfulness. And I think it's kind of been a little bit more rhetorical and a little bit all over the map. So that's my pick. Kathleen?

I sort of feel like I'm picking on conservatives now because after Jason Kenney, I'm going to say Aaron O'Toole, frankly. You know, the expectations, I think, were that just by not being injured here, it would be a game changer for the Conservative Party. And I don't think that's what we're seeing. I still think he's largely unknown. He's, you know, obviously in part because the focus is on the pandemic. But, you know, even his sort of struggle to come up with a response to what Bruce was talking about a little earlier about, you know, how to address climate change, he hasn't had much to say other than he doesn't like carbon taxes. He will say he's going to do something, quote, serious and, quote, smart. And he readily acknowledged that the party under Andrew Scheer hadn't done much of the job of sort of laying it out.

But I think we're still waiting for that. And he's trying to position himself in a way I heard him say the other day. This is how he describes it. There are four parties on the, quote, extreme left. And he's the one in the center, center right. And, you know, he's trying to expand his base and reaching out to union workers, those in the private sector, not the public sector, but specifically the private sector. And, you know, that may bear fruit and maybe it's too early to judge, but I think most people assume there's going to be an election in 2021, and, you know, Bruce is the pollster, but I don't see much happening for him.

Yeah, his start kind of, you know, I think there was a great deal of expectation around O'Toole as things started. But in these first few months, he seems to have proved once again that the Conservatives' biggest political foes these days are in fact themselves, which doesn't help. Anyway, I'm not picking Aaron O'Toole now because you already did that. But what I am going to do is pick a band. And that band is a political band and it's comprised of the four players, Legault, Ford, Kenny and Moe, who together, you know, they kind of set themselves up when this whole thing started as this is a group that can really deal with

things and deal with issues and deal with a big situation like the pandemic. But frankly, their pandemic responses, you know, have been at best, well, not very good. And at worst, they've been deadly in some cases. And so I think they have been overrated. Let's have a little more fun and talk about who's been underrated this year. And here I get to start on this one. You're going to laugh because they're both famous people. But together, Ryan Reynolds and Hayley Wickenheiser, they organized a massive PPE drive when the country needed it the most.

Ryan donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to food banks in both the U.S. and in Canada. He did a PSA to stay home for millennials, including joking about how his insatiable mom was also struggling, not acting on her tinder matches um and when a young woman had the teddy bear uh that her late mom had given her stolen he offered cash to have it returned now these may seem like little things but you know i think that they really touched nerves within and cords within Canadians and their desire to help others. And they spurred on, in many cases, the national campaign.

I think of Hayley Wickenheiser and the things she did. You know, we all know her as a hockey star, but she's a doctor. She's at the front lines. She took time beyond that to organize drives like these. And they made a real difference. And I think as much as we think of those two, we actually underrate them because of the fact of the extra things they did this year. So that's my take. Kathleen, you're next.

Underrated. First of all, I just want to say I love your picks. Those are great picks. And I do think the Canadians, I think it's sort of helped Canadians see what's possible. You know, I think they thought, ah, that's what a Canadian does. Oh, okay. Well, I'm a Canadian, so I can do great things too. So I just want to say kudos for picking Ryan and Haley. I think that's great.

I'm going to go with a politician, and that's Annamie Paul, because Canada's first Black leader of a federal party, relatively unknown, still really unknown. But I think she's got the potential to be a big driver of Green Party growth. And anyone who's watched her interviewed, whether you agree with the platform of the Green Party or not, you can't help but be impressed with her. She's so very smart and a wonderful communicator, I think. And the Green Party for so long, I think, was defined by its leader. It was sort of more the Elizabeth May party than the Green Party. And I think she's got the potential to, you know, take the party forward as opposed to just herself.

She seems to have the skills and the depth to move it forward and sort of establish the brand of the party. Now she just needs to see and she needs to run someplace where she can actually win. And then it's going to be interesting to see the urge to compare and contrast with the MVP whose grasp she'll inevitably mow if she's successful. Okay. Bruce? Yeah, look, I like all those picks. For me, it's a group of people. It's the service workers who had their lives thrown into disarray,

found themselves in situations where the sense of risk to their health was quite significant. And yet every day, you know, I feel like I'm able to get up. And if I have to go to the grocery store and get some food for us to eat, there are people there who are stocking those shelves, who are checking out our groceries and taking money at the cash register. And I know a lot of people have commented on this over the course of the year. And, you know, I think generally we can all say that people who are on the front lines of the health system are owed a particular debt of gratitude. But I also think that people who work in all of those other industries that we consider to be essential, where we really require people to stock the food shelves,

to pick the produce, to make sure that it's there for us when we need it. I've just been so impressed with the kind of quiet fortitude of people across the country. And if I can add one last little thing, which is that in years before, we often had these debates about minimum wage, and they became kind of quite political, where I think people who are kind of on the progressive side of the spectrum would say, well, why? Why does it make sense that affluent people who are making big salaries and seeing their portfolio values go up because stock markets are going up should be the only ones to benefit from a relatively healthy economy.

And we hold down minimum wages. And there were a lot of politicians or some politicians anyway were saying, no, no, no, we can't increase minimum wages because it will be the ruination of the economy. And I don't have to believe that that's true. I don't have to believe that that's true. I don't have to believe that it was fair. And I am kind of hopeful that coming out of this pandemic that we recognize the value of workers in these fields going forward. Kathleen? Oh, you want to go on?

I've already talked about Anna Mae Paul. So I'm going to agree with Bruce. And I'm glad both of you picked. I mean, I went for a politician. I thought you guys would have been the ones going for the politician. Yeah, we like that. We're center. We don't just talk about politicians here in the center too much.

It's so funny that I was the politician. You guys were on the ground and the list here. They were the most overrated global figure. Is that what's coming up next? That is what's coming up next when Kathleen gets us started. All right. Okay. Well, this is a bit of a dodge. what's coming up next that is what's coming up next and kathleen gets us started all right okay well here's what this is a bit of a dodge um but i'm i don't know that any of them matter all that much i mean putting trump aside he's sort of an outlier in every category um but uh not that

anyone overrates donald trump i'm not even remotely suggesting that. I'm just saying, I actually think this is the mirror of local leaders, not global leaders. Everything is so local right now that none of the national leaders, to my mind, to Canadians' minds, I think, matter very much. I think that people are paying a lot more attention to what they're, you know, in terms of leaders, what their premiers are doing, what their municipal leaders are doing, what their community leaders are doing. And COVID, in large measure, is very much a local story at its core. And of course, it is the issue, the challenge that everyone is struggling with on every single level because it's sort of declining our lives from the moment we get up to when we go to bed and everything that much can happen. So much of it is determined. I feel despite sort of the high profile of sort of national leaders in news conferences every day, and obviously a lot of seniors are as well, but I do think it's the local leadership

that people are paying attention to right now and the sort of global view of the world has been diminished to a great degree. I like that. Bruce? So for overrated global figure of the year, and maybe if you will, Peter, I'll also add my underrated global figure of the year. Overrated for me is either Borisis johnson or jared kushner uh i don't know how much i had in way of expectations about boris johnson but it's pretty hard not to look at the uk and say what a mess they've got there and if it wasn't for there being an even bigger mess in the united states

you'd say that that democracy in the uk is broken uh worse than anything we can see anywhere and i think that the the performance of his government on the pandemic has been horrible, on Brexit has been horrible, and doesn't look like he's got any idea of a path forward. But Jared Kushner is kind of a headliner in this category because, of course, he started the year with more on his plate. The things that he was going to solve for the world and America was a longer to-do list than I can remember anybody in public life ever being gifted with, let alone by somebody in their family. And I know that there are experts in the policy field who say that there was some progress made in the Middle East, But on pretty much everything else, I think the guy looks so he had no experience, no particular skills to bring, was working inside a government that was

completely chaotic and devoid of any sense of real purpose other than the promotion of the family value proposition. And I think he was overrated and was a monumental failure. The underrated figure for me is Joe Biden. his support in the polls and went from being a presumptive winner very early in the primary season to somebody who was considered to be an inevitable loser for the third time as he competed for the presidency. And of course, now he's heading into that role and he seems to have the country sort of at least maybe a half and a little bit more of the country looking at it and saying, okay, maybe this was the right choice. Maybe this is the calming influence or the steadying influence that we need.

Okay. You managed to get all of that into one answer, and good for you. So let me pick it up in the same way. Overrated, I know we're getting later to a media question, but I, I think the overrated figure of the year, uh, global figure of the year has generally been the media and you could pick CNN. My issue is that the media, as good a job as it can do, it really failed on the misinformation front this year. It allowed misinformation to take over to an extent today where it dominates the news collection areas for most citizens because of social media. And there hasn't been an aggressive enough attempt on the part of the media in general to deal with that. And in some cases, including the ones I've named, have fed it, which is inexcusable.

It's to the point now where I heard somebody suggesting this morning on one of the morning programs that the only way to defeat misinformation now is to teach the dangers of misinformation in grade school, that it's too late now for generations past grade school. They're totally into it and hooked and can't shake it. But if they can get to the next generation, so to speak, early, they can teach it what the dangers are and what to look out for. I thought that was interesting.

Underrated, I'm actually going to pick an international leader. But I also am hearingathleen says because in some ways she's a local leader because they're kind of remote and isolated but it's the new zealand uh prime minister yacinda arden um she's she's been quite remarkable on a number of big issues in the last couple of years but but very much so on the pandemic. We tend to focus, as we do, on the Trumps and Johnsons and Macrons and even the Trudeaus of the world, and yet she's quietly killing it as the New Zealand prime minister.

So good for her. So you get the, Kathleen, you're most underrated and that moves us out of those categories. So you're most underrated is whom? I think people have been holding her up as sort of like almost an icon in terms of the response to COVID. So I think she's been said and lauded quite widely. But I mean, it's been fascinating to sort of watch her. And I would also suggest that there are actually a lot of women out there doing really amazing work in terms of leadership, like Angela Merkel is another one that I would point out who actually is a scientist and talks like a scientist. And you want to talk about confronting misinformation. Boy, she would be my go-to gal. But in terms of sort of picking one person, I actually don't have to go on for too long because you'll be relieved to hear that, Peter. I agree with Bruce. I think it's Joe Biden. You know, he was seen by many as just, you know,

a weak candidate, especially early in the primaries. But even after winning the nomination, that sort of sense of him persisted. And the belief that the only way he was going to win, if he was going to win, is because he was running against the most historically flawed candidate in U.S. history. Yeah, you know what? I'd like to see the first hundred days before I pass the big judgment on Joe Biden. I mean, I followed his career since the 80s, and there's a lot to like about what's been done. There are also some

major question marks hanging over him and his abilities. We're about to find out. It's hard to judge things right now, but clearly you're both right. He won. So you can't take that away from him. And you may argue that he won in a race that would have been extremely difficult for any of the others who were on that list, the Democratic potential list as presidential candidates. So anyway, I'm looking forward to making more judgments after 100 days. All right. Here we go. And, Bruce, you start this. What was the year's moment or event that you most enjoyed in the year?

Well, it was the day that Trump lost the election. Why am I not surprised to hear that? Both. Both second or first. Sometimes it was the day that we learned that the vaccines that are in development were. I think, you know, everybody that I observed in our research, we were seeing for several years, really, that the biggest story for most Canadians every day, every week, was Donald Trump. And he was more unpopular in Canada than any president whose popularity I've measured, and I've been measuring them for almost 40 years,

and by quite a wide margin. And so I think there was a huge sense of relief for a lot of people in Canada, certainly for me, that we weren't going to have to imagine four more years of what kind of damage he was doing to the conversation that the world was having about different issues and the unity of America on those issues.

But I do think that the vaccine story was one where you could almost feel an exhalation as people allow themselves for the first time to really see the end of this awful pandemic that we've been living through. And while it's not done yet, and obviously we all kind of hear the admonitions to keep our behavior in the right zone and to take care of other people by being careful, it's hard for me to imagine a happier story than that, except possibly with Trump on it.

All right. Here's my pick. Banging pots and pans. That was the most enjoyable moment for me of the year, which we did here in Stratford every night at 7.30 for March, April, May into June. We're not doing it now, which is kind of odd. I mean, some people are, but, you know, we stopped in the summer. But there was something about it that truly made us feel like we were all into it together.

I mean, watching neighbors up and down the street, some of whom I'd never talked to before, barely ever seen. Suddenly, we were sharing this moment every night together, and that kind of bond between the neighbors has remained, even though the 7.30 event has stopped. So I think it was one of those moments that signified the good in what can be accomplished on the part of neighbors and society at a time when, you know, good is needed. Kathleen? Well, I'm going to, this might be cheating, but I'm going to sort of turn that question into a bit of a pretzel because I'm, it's not an event so much as it's actually a book that I read this year. And I have to say, I don't read as many books as I once did because I'm reading stories and articles and I find it hard.

I find it more difficult all the time to get through books, I'll be honest. I think they all need better editors. They're too long. But one that I read and devoured was Humankind by Rutger Bregman. I don't know if you've read it. I highly recommend it.

The guy went to Davos and basically tore strips off of all of them for being hypocrites. And then he went on Tucker Carlson's show on Fox and destroyed Carlson to the point where they didn't air the interview. So he posted it on YouTube. And the book was restorative, honestly, in terms of how I see people on this earth, including myself, because what was wonderful about it in the midst of all this misery, because there's been so much misery this year, is he has, his hypothesis is that people are at their core good.

We are good. Our instincts are good. That we're, you know, not at our core sort of evil. That there is an avarice that's not natural, and that we have to sort of rediscover all the wonderful things that we're capable of. And in a year of misery, that was a really important message to read. I mean, he backs it up with data. And, you know, it's not just all sort of his imaginings. I mean, he offers a lot of really interesting stories that sort of back up the premise.

But I like the idea that at our core, we're good and we can do good and we need to rediscover that. Yeah, I listened to a podcast with him, I just want to say. It was maybe the best thing I've listened to all year. So I recommend that as well. Better than listening to us back again? Even better than that? Well, you know. You don't have to answer that question.

All right. I'm going to jump ahead of here a little bit in our list because I want to get, we're already past the 40-minute mark here, and I want to get into some short snappers. So in other words, like one-sentence answers. And I'm not sure who's up first. I think Bruce is up first here on this one. What did you watch the most of this year?

And I'm talking about television, all right? We've all been in many ways isolated. What did you watch the most of this year? I watched a lot of political TV in the middle of the night if I was having trouble sleeping. For some reason, I got into watching people sailing around the world single-handedly.

I don't know how to sail. I've always thought it would be kind of fun to do something like that. And lo and behold, I find on YouTube, there are endless, endless hours of people documenting their voices around the world.

And I think the entertainment TV that I watch, that I'm really into right now, is the Bureau of the French TV program, the spy program, and I highly recommend it. But the sailing was the surprise thing for me because I've never done it. I'm like, how do I be kind of fun? And I found lots of it out there.

I've spent more time watching streaming services than conventional television by a long shot. Really, really this year, more than anything. And the one I watched the most of, enjoyed the most of, was Fauda, which is an Israeli television series, which is incredible. If you don't mind reading the show, because it's all subtitles. Kathleen. Okay, well, I'll give you two quickies. I have a bunch of episodes of Boston Legal, which is one of my favorite shows of all time with William Shatner.

So there's the Canadian component. And I just am so thoroughly entertained by it. But the other one I'll just mention on regular TV is I suspect I might have to retire in Laurel, Mississippi, because ATTV has a so-called hometown where they renovate the homes and people buy them for like, I don't know, $20,000. And then they put $70,000 in for $100,000. And you've got like the most beautiful home you've ever seen. And I'm totally and completely addicted to HGTV and those programs in particular. So those are my guilty pleasures.

Yeah, I'll have to admit I watch too much HGTV. It's a lot easier to watch how they renovate than to try to do it yourself. Yeah, that's great. Next question, what did you eat the most of this year? And I go first here on this one, and my answer is everything. I'm playing at my pandemic weight now, and I've got to do something about that because I've just eaten so much this year. I've been bad about that. Kathleen, what did you eat the most this year? Honestly, chips. I eat a lot of chips. I'm addicted to salt. I don't know if

you read that book years ago. I can't remember what order it's in, salt, sugar, fat, or fat, sugar, salt. Anyway, it was sort of about the fast food industry and how scientists figured out how to get you addicted to stuff. And I always remember the part about potato chips that they designed it in such a way that the taste was intense, but it disappeared quickly so that you would, you know, have to go get another one right away to get a hit. Well, that's been me in 2020. Bruce is a great cook. I like he's like, he's seriously a really good cook.

But what did you eat the most of this year? I'm clearly fond of Bull's Dutch, which I think is a Western brand that we eat. But I'm with Kathleen on chips. But my answer is Italian food. I love Italian food. I love thinking about being in Italy. I'm involved in two Italian restaurants now

as an investor. We just opened another one up. Our second one up I guess about a month ago, really, in the middle of a pandemic. A lot of people wondering when and on that one. I do, but it's going really well as a takeout place, and I sample the food quite regularly. All right, back into the mainstream of questions, but still with the short, snappy answers. What Canadian figure

has had the best year? And Bruce, you go first this time. The president of Unifor is my pick for that. He got a lot done this year, and he was a useful voice in a lot of conversations, but most particularly because I think that a lot of people looked at the GM decision to shut down the plant do that. That's your job to kind of make the pretense that you can turn that decision around. And lo and behold, a couple of years later, he did turn that decision around. And that plan is going to see an injection of new investment. And there's a lot of potential, I think, for Canada to participate in the e-vehicle manufacturing sector going forward,

in part because of his advocacy around the idea that Canada should be in that business and must be in that business. And he convinced a lot of people in government to support him in that. So a good winning year for Jerry, for sure. My pick for the Canadian figure who had the best year Is actually four of them but they're all together John David Alexis and Moira Rose The cast of Schitt's Creek I actually said that word

On the podcast I'm very proud of myself for figuring out a way of saying it They swept the Emmys They're media royalty now And they're really so damn likable This was their year They put a smile on so many of our faces in a year that was difficult to smile. They won the year and all the

awards. So good for them. Kathleen? I'm going to go with Mark Carney. He's been a big figure for a long time Bank of Canada, Bank of England, now the C1 Special Envoy for Climate Action. You know, there's an aura around Mark Carney, and he sort of seems to operate at a level unlike almost any other public figure I can think of,

not just domestically, but internationally. And he seems to sort of have the royal jelly. There's, you know, I've interviewed him, as I know you have, Peter. There's something really sort of charismatic about him. I mean, he's, who knows if he ever gets involved in politics in any real way. That has a habit of taking the shine off, as we all know. But he does come across as someone who has principled stance on issues, climate change among them, but also, you know, some authority. And he's about to have more opinions, perhaps, than he's had in the past, although he certainly hasn't, but I mean sort of more broadly.

So I'm going to go with Mark Turney. Somebody who I don't think we've heard the last of, because I agree. I think, you know, he would love to be in a role of public service, elected public service, I'm sure, if he could be, but we'll see how that plays out. Let's go to the Canadian figure who had the worst year, and, well, I'll start. You know, and I'm cautious about this because they're friends of mine, and I've worked with them in the past, and I can remember, especially Craig Kielberger when he was just, you know, 12 or 13 years old

and was starting to make headlines. But the Kielbergers had a brutal year, and some of it was self-imposed. They clearly exposed some faults in the way they've been operated. And that is a shame because there's no question that these two guys, Craig and his brother Mark, did inspire a generation to engage with charities, even if the year kind of ends with their own charity being somewhat suspect. But they had a really, they had a bad year.

Bruce. I had trouble with this one, I'll be honest with you. I mean, my first thought was Michelle Rample-Garner because I saw her as somebody who had so much potential to contribute positively to Canadian politics, and I don't think she's done that. I think she was particularly unhelpful in the debate about vaccines and the pandemic response and on some immigration issues too.

But I finally settled on Rex Murphy. This is somebody that we probably all know, and I used to spend quite a bit of time talking with Rex and had dinner with him a couple of times and enjoyed those conversations. And I find myself reading what he writes now and being quite disappointed in it and kind of observing that he is squandering the credibility that he had accumulated over a lifetime of journalism and hosting cross-country checkup and participating in CBC panels. And I was disappointed to see that.

I think he had a bad year. I think his reputation has taken a hit because of the way that he's making the arguments that he's making, as well as, in some cases, the arguments that he's making for sure. So he would be my pick. Kathleen? Sorry, just taking a swig of Fresca. That's the other thing that's been doing a lot this year. I'm addicted to Fresca.

Fresca and chips. Boy, it's a wonder I'm still alive. That's quite other thing that concerns a lot this year. I'm addicted to Fresca. Fresca and Chip, boy, it's a wonder I'm still alive. That's quite the diet. No, no, he's got that. I sort of feel like we're picking on him, and I don't mean to, because I know that he came up in a previous question, and I brought him up. But I've got to go with Jason Kenney. I just think he's had a miserable year. Nothing seems to be going very well for him.

He's, you know, he's having problems on his right flank. I'm not, you know, look, this is now. And who knows what happens two years from now. But nothing has really gone his way. And he's sort of getting it from all sides, I would say. Excuse me. And so, you know, this is the job he wanted, but I wonder if this is the job he wanted

because no one could have predicted that this is what he was going to walk into. And I think he's struggling. I would be really interested to see what happens in 2021. And I will say this, too, to be fair to him, I don't know that there's another political leader in the country, certainly no provincial leader in the country, grappling with the same set of really challenging and confounding issues as he is. And I'm not sure how anyone else would have performed. They would have performed differently, obviously,

because they're different people. But I think this is difficult for anyone. And it's truly testing them. And I'll be interested to see what 2021 looks like. Okay. We're into the last couple of questions here and I'm going to combine two to go into this one. It's about the media.

Okay. And it's, you know, the best media moment of the year and the worst media moment of the year. You can either do both or pick one. But, Bruce, you can start. Yeah, I'll pick the worst media moment of the year. And it's the worst for me because it's consistent with something that I've seen over a lengthy period of time developing

where I don't know the reason why exactly but the way that the media reacted to Prime Minister Trudeau asking for some time to speak to the nation 10-15 minutes I forget exactly how much it was about the pandemic in the run-up to Thanksgiving, I guess, really struck me as being kind of tone deaf in terms of not understanding the public that they're there to serve. There was almost this implied, how could he not understand that our role is to sit in the middle of the conversation between a prime minister and the people who are voters in the country. And doesn't he know how valuable 15 minutes of TV time at six o'clock or whatever it was in the evening central time really is?

And both of those just seem really odd to me. And they seem like the media were not understanding how interested people are in the pandemic. And whether they thought much of what the prime minister said, whether he said very much, to me is kind of beside the point. It sort of struck me as being a reminder that a lot of news organizations often try to imagine a bigger controversy than the public is prepared to see. And so a story will kind of blow up into a big thing for a couple of days. And then eventually, I guess, editors or assignment editors will realize that not very many people are paying attention to it. And the story will

go away, but the syndrome will happen again. And so I think that there's certainly an argument that there's a disconnect between politicians and voters on a lot of things And so I think that there's certainly an argument that there's a disconnect between politicians and voters on a lot of things. But I think that media and the people that they serve, the audience, there's also a pretty big gap there most days. And that was a pretty telling episode for me. Kathleen? Yeah, I don't know.

Let me jump in on that one because that's not the one I would pick. But I will just say that I think part of it was he was on the airwaves every single day, like all the time. And I mean all the time. I know because I was asked to join our network coverage all the time to talk about it. And so I think that was part of it, Bruce, honestly. It was, you know, there was, I think, an expectation that we would hear more from him

other than what we were hearing every day anyway. So that was part of it. And I don't, you know, there is a certain expectation when you sort of take over the, you know, it's sort of like a command performance, a command broadcast, command coverage. I mean, we're doing it anyway. And so I think that was part of it. And the other thing I'll just sort of add to that is I think, you know, we're now in the accountability phase more fully than we have been over the course of the pandemic. And that's been sort of

interesting to watch because I do think, you know, sort of getting to the best and worst journals and things. I do wonder if the accountability on some of the decisions being made came too late. I think part of it was sort of a sensitivity that we're in a crisis and you just want to sort of get stuff done and help people and do, you know, I suppose bring the country together and not try and create divisions, but I'm not sure that's actually the job of journalism. And I do wonder whether the accountability on a lot of decisions that were starting to see now came too late. And so it's now like a hindsight of 2020 kind of coverage that we're doing now. And it sort of exposes maybe where we failed. Yeah, I got to say that I think the debate around accountability and how soon the media should have been on was more important to get information out to the public on what was happening on the day than it was to argue about how soon certain things had been done, when you did this, when did you find out that, what was the first meeting you had,

et cetera, et cetera. I knew that was all going to come, and it is coming, and you're right about that. And some of it is a dark picture that's being painted of some of the way things were handled. And I'm thinking more specifically in the provinces than in Ottawa, but it'll all come out in the wash at the end. And people will be accountable and should be accountable. And, you know, I was always suspicious of provinces that went rushing to the polls as quickly as they could, knowing full well that this wasn't over yet. Anyway, that's that. My worst media moment of the year was actually, I'll take it outside of Canada. It was the day Trump got out of hospital and that kind of Hollywood attempt to glamorize his flight on a helicopter from the hospital, from Walter Reed to the White House, and his eventual standing on the balcony doing take one and take two or whatever of a message to voters, I thought that the media fell for that in such a fashion.

The whole thing was staged like it was a scene from some big Hollywood movie. And the media played its role in encouraging that. And I thought that was not a great moment for anybody on any channel and any version of the media on that night. Okay, let's go to the last one because we're, man, we're well over an hour. And here it is. And we'll end on a positive note, okay? What was the best political choice of the year?

Now, it could be Canadian, it could be outside of the country, but who made the best political choice of the year and what actually was it? Let's see, who can start on this one? Kathleen. Okay. Putting Kirstie Freeland into finance, I think, was by far the best political choice of the year. She is one of those rare individuals that seems to be able to talk to everyone.

And she is a cabinet minister that is spoken of glowingly from everyone from Doug Ford to Jason Kenney for that matter. And, you know, she doesn't come across as much as a, as a politician, as someone who sort of has a vocation, which is kind of refreshing to have in such a high power position, also a deputy prime minister, as we know. And I think she's had, you know, sort of countless success stories that she can point to as well. I mean, we'll see because she'll really be tested, I think, in the year to come for sure and when we finally get a budget

and other than just sort of fiscal and economic updates. But based on everything I've seen from her so far, I think that was the best political choice of the year. Okay. Bruce? I think the combination of putting money into the hands of Canadians and small businesses and then ordering lots of vaccines. I think if I look at those two things as being kind of the bookends of or the central elements of the pandemic management,

it's hard not to recognize that if the government hadn't moved as quickly as it did to reassure people that they're going to have some income, we could have had social unrest, we could have had more people spreading the disease more quickly and more deaths as a consequence. So I think that that decision saved lives. And I think that the decisions to order vaccines in significant quantities is something that, you know, when I look at how our country handled the situation compared to others, it's hard not to feel like that. Those were good political choices made by the people that run government. Here's mine.

And it was the decision to close the Canada-U.S. border. Now, it's been, what, nine months now since they did that? That saved lives. There's no question that that saved lives. You just have to look at what's happened in the States. And the government has stuck to its guns. Now, look, there are lots of loopholes, and we know that on a number of areas, but can you imagine if it hadn't been closed

and what could have resulted if that had happened? So it's not perfect, but it was the right thing to do. And, you know, make no mistake about it. That was a political choice. And I'm sure there was much discussion and debate around that and trying to ensure that, you know, certain elements of the trade between the two biggest trading partners in the world continued, but they closed the border, and it's still closed. And like every month, they extended another month. And, you know, good for them on that decision. I mean, there are going to be enough decisions that were already questions raised about, and as time goes on and we find out more and more of what happened over the last year,

there will be more questions raised. But on that one, it seems to me they did the right thing. Listen, I wish I could declare a winner out of all these questions and the answers you gave, because they were all pretty good. They were all actually very good. And what's surprising is in almost every case, I think, there weren't duplicates, which is pretty good as well. So, Kathleen, we thank you enormously for your contribution

and in joining us to smoke mirrors in the truth for this special edition today. And we wish you obviously great luck in the, in the year ahead on West of center. Thanks again. Well, let me just say that it, you know, as I was saying in responding to Bruce on Twitter,

that it was sort of great to have a reunion and cause it, you know, it sort of feels like that because I think the last time the three of us spoke, there were more than just the three of us, but I think it was at issue in 2011. And so, and I know you and I have spoken since then, Peter, but it's, you know, it's great to serve joint forces again,

talk politics, but more than anything else, talk about life. And I'm so glad to see both of you thriving and as always. So thanks so very much for the invite. I really enjoyed it.

And to you too. I just want to add my thanks to what Peter said. I always love talking with you, even those brief moments that we could chat when I would be in Calgary and step into the Calgary studio. Always good to see you there. Always felt, you know, better about the quality of journalism whenever I saw you doing what you do. And I'm glad to have connected again and wish you all the best for the holidays.

Great. Well, listen, both of you have, have a great holiday season. I try to try to enjoy some downtown down time, even if we can't spend it the way we normally do at this time of year. So thank you both. And look, that ends this special edition of smoke mirrorsrors and the Truth on The Bridge Daily. We'll be back tomorrow. And tomorrow is actually a contest where we'll be giving away a signed copy of Extraordinary Canadians. The contest, so get your entries in. A lot came in last night.

But, you know, if you want to enter the contest, what I'm looking for is what your Christmas message would be, right? We all know the Queen's message and how important that is. So I'm looking, what would you say if you were afforded that opportunity to give a message to the country on Christmas day? I'm just looking for a sentence or two, three at the most. So send it in the Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com, the Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com. So thanks againpodcast at gmail.com. So thanks again for listening today. It's been great to be with you. I'm Peter Mansbridge.

This has been The Bridge Daily. We'll be back in 24 hours. Thank you.