The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - SMT - No Smoke and Mirrors in BC's Latest Weather Event

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

Words can't really describe just how devastating the flooding in British Columbia has been and the extent of the short to long-term damage it's caused.  Smoke Mirrors and The Truth with Bruce Anderson weighing the consequences cuts to the facts.  Also, Erin O'Toole just can't escape the knives in his own party.  And Justin Trudeau heads to Washington, what will he come back with?

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. And you know what that means, because it's Wednesday. It means Bruce Anderson and smoke, mirrors, and the truth. Our podcast is brought to you by Questrade, Canada's fastest-growing and award-winning online broker. Tired of getting dinged with fees every time you buy or sell U.S. stocks? Well, good news.

With Questrade, you don't have to. You can hold U.S. dollars in your trading account and avoid expensive, forced conversion fees every time you trade U.S. stocks. Switch today and get up to $50 worth of free trades. Visit Questrade.com to open an account and use promo code QUEST. Conditions apply. Looking for a way to zhuzh up your dinner options? With 21 flavorful recipes every week, Chef's Plate ensures dinner time will never be boring. Our menu includes easy and quick 15-minute meals and favorite classics, including vegetarian options and more. We don't compromise on the yum factor. Each Chef's Plate box comes with pre-portioned ingredients measured out perfectly for your meals.

Say goodbye to wasted produce and hello to saving money. Go to chefsplate.com and click the sign up button and apply the code THEBRIDGE. That's THEBRIDGE for 50% off your first two boxes. Yes, it's an SMT day. That means Bruce Anderson joins us from Ottawa. I'm Peter Mansbridge in Toronto. This is The Bridge, the Wednesday edition.

SMT, smoke mirrors and the truth. Good morning to you. Good day to you. Morning, Peter. It's good to talk with you again. You know, it's hard to turn on the TV or listen to the radio or go online are all just absolutely top of the page. They are the big story of the day. I mean, when you've got thousands of people being relocated from their homes, hundreds of people being literally airlifted by helicopter away from their homes because they're in dire threat from floodwaters.

You see all kinds of different impacts in terms of the operation of the province from railways to highways to ports. And this is not going to be cleared up in a day. This is going to take a long time and a lot of careful thought about the future and how to handle situations like this, which everybody says are going to become much more commonplace because of climate change. But this one seemed to catch at least some people off guard, totally off guard. While south of the border, the state of Washington seemed to be prepping their people and their emergency services.

They expected there were going to be problems. But BC is responding as best they can, and maybe the feds are going to get involved here as well. But it's an overwhelming story. I'm going to play you a one-minute clip. Just so you get a sense of just how widespread this is. This was the Solicitor General, the Minister of Public Safety in British Columbia, Mark Farnsworth, was giving the update last night.

So this is, you know, whatever, 12, 16 hours old at this point in terms of the data in it. But what's important is the scope. When you listen to just how wide-ranging the problems are in BC, listen to this. This is about a minute or 70 seconds or so. So here he is, Mike Farnsworth, the Minister of Public Safety in British Columbia last night.

Since early this morning, heavy search and rescue teams have been working to reach and rescue people trapped in their cars due to the mudslides. They are working in challenging weather, but they are working as quickly and safely as possible to help people. Progress has been made. So many people have been rescued by helicopters from mudslides near Agassiz and Hope, with crews working to rescue the remaining people in the next few hours. I want to thank Agassiz and the Seabird First Nation for their support in housing those evacuees. A slide near Lillooet led to approximately 50 vehicles being stuck. Ministry crews and the Pemberton Search and Rescue Team have rescued those on site,

and they are being housed in Pemberton. Over 20 emergency operations centres have been activated. As well, Emergency Management BC continues to work with local governments, MLAs and MPs to share the latest information and share what they are seeing and hearing in their communities. Since this morning, there has been a slide near Hague on Highway 7 that has trapped many vehicles. Exact numbers are still being assessed. Work is underway to rescue those vehicles and those people now. So you get a sense of just how, you know, widespread this is. And it's just sort of one, you know, one hit after another as the minister sort of surveys the damage in British Columbia

from this storm that seemed to dump more water on parts of the province in a couple of hours than usually happens in a month. And nothing can, you know, the power of water is something we constantly underestimate. But it is incredibly damaging. And you just need to look at some of these pictures and listen to clips like that to understand how. what are your feelings on this bruce well i think one of the local mayors used the term it breaks your heart to see what's going on the damage to to lives and the loss of life at least one life so far and perhaps more um the great devastation to property the sense of uh vulnerability i think that a lot of people must property, the sense of vulnerability,

I think that a lot of people must feel in the province of British Columbia right now. And to realize, and good for the public safety minister, Mike Farnworth, in British Columbia to link this to climate change, not to make a political point, but to really reinforce the fact of life, I think, for British Columbia, which is that it seems like as a province, because of the nature of it, it's more exposed to some of the risks that come with climate change over time, whether it's forest fires and people in all parts of the province experiencing a lot of smoke and haze and air quality issues every year, or whether it's the vulnerability to mudslides like these because of the kind of the geographic nature of the province

and the mountains and the roads. I spent a lot of time in BC, and I kind I know the beauty of being able to drive through these mountain passes and into these smaller communities and, and to realize just how vulnerable those connection points are. I, the last thing I would say, Peter, is it, you know, it does feel to me, I was talking to a group of people in British Columbia yesterday, mostly in the business community, and we were discussing some of the data that I've been gathering in the province, and they were remarking at how

how strong the consensus was to take action on climate change in the province, including in the province's business community. And I was saying, look, I do think that there's almost no organized entity of any political stature or effectiveness that is against action on climate change now in Canada. There's skirmishing about the policy mix. And occasionally you'll have somebody like a Max Bernier who says we don't need to do anything about this. But really, the consensus is very strong, the motivation levels are higher than ever. And hopefully, there won't be good that comes out of this, obviously. But if it does reinforce the sense that we have to take more action over time to solve climate change, then that can't be a bad thing. You know, politicians and bureaucrats got to be careful on the way they deal with this.

I mean, this is an overwhelming tragedy. As you said, we're lucky at least so far. The loss of life has been minimal, but there are all kinds of ways of looking at that in terms of the cost of this, whether know, not just crops but animals that have been severely impacted because of this. But it's a delicate situation for, you know, political leaders especially, and I think, you know, I think we both assume that the prime minister will probably land out there somewhere in the next few days. I mean, he's tied up in this Washington meeting with Biden

in the next little while, and the Mexican leader. But the issue becomes, what do you say and how much do you talk about climate change at a time when people are suffering greatly as a result of what's happened in the last 48, 72 hours. And trying to determine what you do in the short term. Because, I mean, things have been wiped out. Access to the port of Vancouver, the busiest port in the country um rail uh access to the port whether it's shipping grain um overseas or or whether it's you know moving people or or or gas or oil or whatever it is that they you know

move in rail cars um roads washed out um you know major areas of the Coquihalla Highway severely impacted. I mean, these things are not things you fix overnight. It's going to take time and it's going to take probably billions of dollars in the short term to deal with these situations. But is that building for the future a future that is severely impacted by climate change or do you have to rethink a lot of these things? Well, I think probably the reality is that we need to do more of everything that's connected to the challenge of climate change. And there has been at least somewhat debate between those who say climate change is going to happen.

We're not really going to be able to stop it. So let's just get on with building the systems and structures that can protect us from the worst effects of it. And there's certainly an argument that that's a prudent thing to do, to build more resilient infrastructure and that sort of thing. I think whenever anybody sort of uses that, though, as an argument against taking action to try to limit the rise in the Earth's temperature, I think that we have to be concerned about that. I think that we'll always be, if we don't address the rising temperature, we'll always be, if we don't address the rising temperature,

we'll always be playing catch up to a series of disasters that we know will happen as the planet warms. So I think we need to do both. I think it's the right thing for the provincial officials and others involved to focus first on meeting the basic human needs. But I also think it's important for them to acknowledge they're not telling people what they don't know when they raise climate change. They are making a connection point that most people already get, the vast majority of people already get.

And they also understand that you can't link climate change specifically to one particular weather act. but most people in most parts of canada have seen enough to be convinced that there are more disasters that are happening and they are happening in a time when the temperature of the planet keeps on going up bc can certainly attest to that just this year i mean the the issues they've had not just with this uh weather and alberta with the fires in fort mack and the floods in calgary it's um oh yeah it's it's a pretty clear pattern for most people now and not just western canada you know it's um you know there are examples right across the country but the

point i guess i was making about bc they've they've had it bad like just this year was just a couple of months ago yeah that the town wiped out basically by a fire yeah the brunt of it is being felt there no question about it and and it's also a place where i think that they understand that their economic model, as it evolves to provide sustainably produced products to the world, sees some opportunity and a movement to solve this problem. So it's a place in the country where the challenges, and I guess to some degree, the longer-term opportunities that might arise from this huge problem of climate change are kind of a little bit more evident and more discussed. And so let's keep hoping for

better days in the next several days for our friends in BC. And one of the things that will, you know, help the situation in the short term is that the this is one of those moments where canada responds not at necessarily uh just at a government level but at a human level in the sense of people concerned about their you know friends and fellow canadians in bc but they'll they'll do more than just feel bad about it they'll actually respond to it by going to help. And you'll see different groups of whether they're rescue workers or flood damage control people or what have you. They'll start to arrive in BC, if they haven't already, from different parts of the country where at a time when, sure,

there are divisions in the country over a variety of things, but not on this. And they'll be there to help. Okay, going to move topics. Let me take a quick break, and then we'll come back. We're going to talk about the latest situation for Aaron O'Toole. And I'll have a little explanatory note on that before we start. But that's right after this.

Our Black Product Sp Friday sponsor is The Economist. If you don't already know, its expertise lies in making sense of the world's most important developments. It offers completely independent opinion and analysis, giving you a balanced global view of an issue instead of a biased or politically motivated opinion. And don't be fooled by the name. It covers pretty much everything from culture to science and technology, from politics to finance and business. It's Black Friday. Get 50% off the annual digital subscription to The Economist. This gives you access to the website, their app, podcasts, newsletters, webinars, and more. It's a great offer, and we think it'll make a difference the way you see the world. There's a reason world

leaders read it. We hope you will give it a try. Just visit economist.com slash bridge 50 to get 50% off your first year, including full access to the app and economist.com. That's economist.com slash bridge 50, where 50 is a number for 50% off your first year to enjoy The Economist whenever and wherever you want. If you have type 2 diabetes, it might be time for you to have a heart-to-heart with your own heart. There's no sugar-coating it. Type 2 diabetes affects more than just your blood sugar levels. It can impact many parts of your body, including your heart. If you have diabetes and a history of heart disease,

there are medications that, along with diet and exercise, can lower your risk of dying from problems related to your heart and blood vessels. Talk to your doctor today and visit myheartmatters.ca to learn more. Brought to you by two of Canada's leading pharmaceutical research-based companies. Looking to cook smarter and faster at home? Chef's Plate Dinner Boxes give you back the time spent on meal planning and grocery shopping by delivering everything you need to cook delicious meals right to your door. Each Chef's Plate box also comes with pre-portioned ingredients measured out perfectly for your meals. Say goodbye to wasted produce and hello to saving money.

Go to chefsplate.com, click the sign-up button, and apply the code THEBRIDGE. That's one word, THEBRIDGE, to get 50% off your first two boxes. And we're back with Smoke, Mirrors, and the Truth. Bruce Anderson's in Ottawa. I'm Peter Mansbridge in Toronto on this day. Morning after another great Leafs victory. Nine out of ten games. But who's talking?

You know, I mean, the Jets are playing great in Winnipeg. The Oilers are playing great. Oh, it must be a month before Christmas. It's only Montreal and Ottawa who sadly are not doing too well, but it's early in the season, and Montreal got off to a horrible start last year and then came racing back and almost won it all. Of course, that was with Carey Price and Shea Weber and a few other important parts that aren't there with them right now.

Anyway, enough about hockey. Let's talk about a different kind of hockey, and that's the hockey game that goes on in Ottawa, especially in the conservative caucus. Now, every time we talk about this, Bruce, I get mail, some of it saying, well, you lay off the conservatives. You guys are always picking on Aaron O'Toole, and it's not fair. You know what?

We don't pick on him. His own party is picking on him. I mean, they are divided to a degree, and it's unclear as to just how deep the division is, but it comes up weekly and sometimes daily, and it did again this week, to the point in which the leader, Aaron O'Toole, had to toss out of the party a member of the caucus, a senator, Denise Batters, who wanted to dump Aaron O'Toole.

So this fight is not a creation of the media. It's a creation within the party itself. And it does, you know, sometimes you have to gauge the degree of damage that it does. I remember, you know, going back 40 years, it used to be the constant whine on the part of some conservatives was all this anti-Joe Clark stuff is really damaging the party and we can't recover from this kind of internal division.

Well, in fact, they ended up dumping Joe Clark as the leader and they got Brian Mulroney and they wanted to back-to-back majority governments. So there are examples both ways on this. But whatever the case, Aaron O'Toole seems to be in a constant battle, a constant fight with his own party, with these kind of stories making the headlines, as opposed to stories about the way he's trying to shift the balance within that party, perhaps shift the tone of policy decisions,

which may be part of the problem, clearly is part of the problem for him internally. But nevertheless, he's trying to do one thing, and yet daily certainly weekly the focus becomes about his leadership and it doesn't seem to stop every time you think okay well you know i think he's finally buried this problem it pops up again the next day yeah yeah i remember it was a few weeks ago we were having a conversation. I think it was one of our conversations on Fridays with Chantal. I remember saying something to the effect that I think the next several months is really most of the noise is going to be about the conservative infighting and not what the liberals are doing. And I don't think that's productive. I don't think it's a good thing for the conservative party. I don't think it's helpful for the country, but I,

I couldn't see a scenario where the conservative party was going to be able to settle the internal tensions that had been bubbling up over the last several months before and into the period of the election campaign. And, and by that, I mean the kind of the instinct to think on the part of several, you know, vocal public party members and maybe more of the grassroots that Aaron O'Toole campaigned as this true blue conservative trying to win the base because he didn't think that he could maybe compete for the progressive vote with Peter McKay. And then he turned around and started introducing more centrist type policies.

So where do I think they are now? I guess I think that they probably will continue to worry his leadership until ultimately he's not the leader anymore. I just think that that party lacks the, I'm going to use the word discipline, the self-discipline to, and I know that some people are going to decide that that's an unkind or an unfair word, but I think that really, as I look at it, they shouldn't replace him. And here's why I think that, Peter. First of all, I think that there's merit to the argument that he misled people into thinking that he was going to be a more conservative small C leader than he turned out to be on the campaign trail. So he's guilty of inauthenticity or misleading

some people. But on the other hand, that what he was trying to do in the election campaign was reposition the party more directly towards the centre and they need that. So really, the question is, do they need a better prosecutor of their case? Or does the party need therapy that moves it more towards a competitive position in the centre? And I think it's definitely the second, which isn't to say that he didn't make some mistakes along the way. Second thing is, I think that he has shown that he can campaign in Quebec. And I think it's imperative for the Conservatives to be able to have a conversation with Quebecers. And I think that Ar O'Toole did better than some people expected him to be able to do. And in the absence of knowing who they would replace him with, that could always go worse.

But the last and maybe the most important point for me is that people, when they stay in these jobs, they learn, they get better generally. Some don't. But you can usually tell the ones who have the ability to get better from those who don't. And, you know, just in the last 24 hours, I've been sort of weighing the evidence on that I had been thinking that Aaron O'Toole has the ability to get better. But I think he's right in the middle of a very significant test. And the test is, how do you respond to criticism? Do you view it as a platform to say some really powerful and compelling things that everybody who's watching from a distance will hear and say, oh, that's a really good point, or I really like the way he made that point, or I like the way he's kind of focused on what needs to happen

going forward. Or do you kind of shelter in place a little bit? And do you sort of just hope that this too passes? And I feel like to survive this leadership challenge, he needs to be that leader who sees every attack, because they're going to be more as an opportunity to make a compelling case for what the Conservatives can offer Canadians instead of maybe, you know, leaving voicemails kicking critics out of caucus. I don't know that that was, you know, consistent with the approach that I would recommend that he take. But on the whole, I do think he has shown the ability to kind of evolve and improve his effectiveness as a political leader and that parties need to let the public

get to know leaders for a period of time before tossing them over the side of the deck and replacing them with who knows what. I still do wonder whether there's a hidden hand behind all this you know when we watched andrew sheer's demise shortly after the 2019 election campaign um you know his attackers are those who were plotting against him were kind of out out in the open you knew who they were you saw them on election night they started started the attack there and they they didn't hold back um here you know you obviously you saw the senator from the conservative caucus uh batters uh coming after him and she just happened to be by coincidence she

was part of the peter mckay team last time around, the last leadership race. Whether that means Peter McKay had anything to do with this or not, I don't know. And we seem to think that he's kind of out of it in terms of not being in an active role anymore within the party. But who knows about that? But these things don't necessarily take the active hidden hand of somebody who wants the job. It can be frontline people who are part of the kind of back rooms of a party can lead a charge like this. And, you know, you do see some of that going on here.

You know, some people are not being quiet about things and as you pointed out you don't see a lot of big names standing up for him no no that's that's usually a pretty good indication that the trouble is is worse underneath the hood than it appears on the surface. I think there are probably three groups within his party that will probably never feel good enough about him again. Now, whether they number significantly enough to replace him, to cause the replacement, I think that's really the issue. And one group is the pro-life group who feel so he's not there um he's not their champion um the second is the

climate change denier or the group that really doesn't like any policies that look like they'll mitigate the um the development of oil and gas or the emissions from oil and gas development in Canada. And, you know, a lot of there is a segment in that party that is really dug in on that. And we saw that in the vote at the at the policy convention. And he's right to to say we're not going to embrace climate denial. And the third has been the anti-vax sentiment. And, you know, if you ask me what are the two biggest problems that he created for himself in the last little while that are part of the complex web of challenges that he faces today. One has been he's pretty mushy on vaccinations for his MPs. It's been a situation where you could tell that what he was trying to do was not try to lay down a law for

fear that the lawbreakers would decide that they were going to stand against him on this. But at the end of the day, he's headed towards Parliament reconvening next week. And we still don't know how many of his MPs are not vaccinated and therefore will not be able to participate in debates in the House. That seems to me to be the kind of problem that solid leadership from a management standpoint solves for. And the second thing is that in the campaign, he didn't really do anything to profile his front bench, or even his candidates. And, you know, when we talk about Brian Mulroney as the most successful conservative leader, from a number of standpoints, I know that there will be those who say that Stephen Harper was a more successful leader, but I kind of feel like Brian Mulrooney had mastery of a few really important skills. And one was he made sure that people on his team knew that he was their friend, their

supporter. He was going to try to help give them profile, say positive things about them. And I don't think that Aaron O'Toole did really any of that in the election campaign. And I was surprised at the time. And I do think that it's a bill that comes due in a circumstance like this. So he's got work to do. I don't think that kicking people out of caucus is necessarily the thing that needs doing. I think Paul Wells wrote a piece yesterday that I kind of agreed with, which is that he needs to speak up more on the basis of what it is that he wants to offer to Canadians. And not just like you, I don't like Justin Trudeau kind of frame. That's not good enough. There's got to be more policy. There's got to be more sense of leadership. There's got

to be more ferocity in that kind of language from Aaron O'Toole to ward off this kind of effort by people who are unhappy with him. You mentioned Trudeau. So let's close out today's SMT with a little SMT on Trudeau and his upcoming visit to Washington. They used to call these the Three Amigos Summit. This was back in the 90s mainly when cretian and clinton and the mexican um leader got together and it was all pretty you know pretty jovial stuff they seemed to get along they worked on various things including the trade agreements um the three amigos kind of

disappeared they certainly disappeared during the trump years trump wasn't interested he was too including the trade agreements. The three amigos kind of disappeared. They certainly disappeared during the Trump years. Trump wasn't interested. He was too busy, you know, trying to build a wall and have Mexico pay for it. He didn't get the wall. He didn't get the wall built and he didn't get them to pay for anything. But whatever, there were no three amigo summits. So in a way, this is the first one in the post-trump era

um but trudeau is already out of the gate saying he's going to fight for uh trying to convince joe biden to to back off on the protectionism slant now that would be quite achievement if he can do that because it's not like it's something new. It's been a part of the discussion on U.S.-Canada relations for at least the last 20 years. And so how successful he's able to be on that will be one of the ways that this summit is judged, I guess. But beyond that or including that, what are you looking at? Well, I do think it's a really interesting time in the conversation between Canada and the United States. And I recommend to any of our listeners, Peter,

who are interested in getting a good read on it, Alex Panetta is just a fantastic journalist working for the CBC now who has posted a piece about this meeting and the background for it today. And it was one of the pieces I read kind of preparing for our podcast this morning. And I do think that if we look at America today, it's hard to find any real free traders in the political ecosystem, real champions for free trade, just as it's hard to find any real fiscal conservatives. So there's been a change in the chemistry of the U.S. political system so that it no longer stands as a beacon for freer trade for multilateralism either, right? So it's very uncertain political terrain right now.

And one of the reasons for that is that there is this fairly large schism within the Democratic Party between those who say, well, we need to be more like the kind of the U.S. used to be, favor multilateralism and know who our allies were and have arrangements with them that were mutually supportive. And those in the Democratic Party who say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but really what we have to do is our own kind of democratic version of Trump's America first. And I think that's the situation that Joe Biden has found himself caught in a little bit. Now, to be clear, we do have a couple of things going for us on this,

on the central policy issue, which is the tax credit for e-vehicles that are assembled in the United States, which is in the legislative proposals that Biden has put forward. What we have going for us is the intent of that is not really to harm Canada. It's really about dealing with the Chinese threat, the idea that China will start mass producing electric vehicles. And if they're allowed to have access to too much access to the American marketplace, then American manufacturers will not be able to really build out their capacity in that market. And I think from a distance, it's easy to see why America would be concerned about that, because Chinese manufacturing does dump products into America, and people are looking for cheaper electric vehicles. And the Democratic coalition needs to maintain support among labor unions that include auto

manufacturing unions. So if the intent is really to prevent China from overwhelming the U.S. market in e-vehicles in the years ahead, then it does make sense to me that especially with, and this is the second point, especially with the fact that we've renegotiated NAFTA and that we do have an auto trade agreement in place with the United States, that we should be able to talk our way through with the Americans, not to a place where there's a, you know, there's a huge announcement that Canada is now going to be welcome to assemble e-vehicles for Americans. I don't see the politics of that ever happening in this political climate. But if there's a way for these countries to agree that the intent was not to damage or undermine the trade agreement

or the relationship, then hopefully that's the kind of conversation that the Prime Minister and the President can have and the kind of outcome that we can be looking forward to. Well, whatever outcome we get will probably be the focus of a good chunk of Good Talk on Friday when Chantel joins us and that little summit in Washington is over with. It'll be interesting to have that conversation, as it always is on Good Talk and whatever else is streaming across our minds as a situation on Friday.

So that's Friday's Good Talk. Tomorrow, of course, on the bridge, we will do a little your turning, get the mailbag out. There's been a lot of mail over the last few weeks, and I want to tackle some of that to get your thoughts on a variety of different issues that have come up over the last few weeks. So I'm looking forward to doing that. All right, Bruce, thank you for today, as always.

Thank you, Peter. We'll talk to you in a couple of days' time. That's it for The bridge for this Wednesday. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back at you in 24 hours.