The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - So Much For That Red Wave.

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

At the time of this recording the results were still being counted and in fact may still be counted for a few days, or even weeks, yet.  But one thing is clear: the Republican rout some expected in the US midterms did not happen. Bruce tries to clear the smoke and mirrors from the story.  Also Doug Ford changes his plans to use the notwithstanding clause -- what does that say about his leadership. And more on our theme this week about "remembering".

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. It's Wednesday. It's Bruce Anderson. It's Smoke, Mirrors, and the Truth. And hello there, Smoke, Mirrors, and the Truth coming to you. Hey, how are you? I'm doing great. How are you doing? I'm doing all right. And when you consider, well, you try to figure out now who's doing all right in the states because the midterms last night, it's still not going to be clear,

possibly for a number of more hours, maybe a number of more days, maybe a number of more weeks as to who has control of both the House of Representatives and the Senate in the United States. Both were controlled by the Democrats up to last night. The question becomes who controls them now? Now, if you've been following this story over most of this year, all we've heard about is the big red wave is coming, which means the Republicans were going to sweep in both houses. And there were a lot of Democrats who were worried about that in the past few weeks that in fact, that is what was going to happen.

Well, it hasn't happened. There was no big red wave. Somebody described it actually as kind of a pink mini splash. Whatever the case, this is the way it kind of shapes up right now. And as I said, once again, this may change a little bit over the next little while. But at the moment, it appears that the Republicans could win the House of Representatives, but only by a couple of seats. But nevertheless, a win's a win. In the Senate, it looks like the Democrats are going to hold the Senate.

Not by a lot, but once again, a win is a win. So you look at those numbers and you start to calculate, well, what happened here? Why didn't the Republicans do as well as they thought they were going to do? They seem to be having the major issues on their side, at least the ones that the pollsters were telling us were the major issues,. There have been some occasions. George Bush Jr. in 2002 won a huge midterm election. That was mainly based on the continuing fallout to 9-11 and the popularity he had in the actions he was taking at that point.

But other than that, when you look in recent past American election history, midterms do not go in favor of the party in power, and that was expected this time. But something got in the way. Was it Donald Trump? Was it some of the things the MAGA crowd was saying? Was it the abortion issue? What was it that seems to have gotten in the way of the big red wave? All right, you've been looking at things,

you've been studying the numbers, and I'll give you this. You warned us a week ago, pollsters aren't always right. Some things change in the setup to election, the number of people who actually go out and vote, where the youth vote is, whether an issue, an underground issue can take hold

that people aren't kind of tracking well enough. So you did warn us a week ago that this might not be the way a lot of people were suggesting it was going to go. But when you're looking at these things today, what are you seeing? Well, first of all, I think you're right to caution that smoke is still clearing about this but there are some things that if they're not absolute truths at this point they look like they're going to be more true than not and they're reasonably interesting takeaways as far as i'm

concerned first of all if expectations are really what we all collectively tend to use as the framework for evaluating results then there's no question that Republicans were both surprised and unhappy with the results so far. They expected better. Ted Cruz even was, I think, yesterday saying this was going to be a red tsunami, a big Republican victory. Now, maybe he was trying to, you know, pump up his troops a little bit, but I do think that Republicans were seeing a lot of results that they had not expected last night. I think the second thing is that, and you and I probably share this view, and probably a lot of our listeners, and maybe some

don't, but if Trump is a poison in the world, and in American democracy in particular, this might be the first sign that that poison is weakening, that it's drifting out of the system a little bit. I wouldn't want to overstate it, but it was a bad night for him. It was a night where the candidates that he handpicked, and when he handpicked them, they all got the nomination from their party, but they're not all winning. And some of the more high profile individuals that he picked, because they agreed with him that the campaign was stolen, because they took pretty radical positions against other Republicans. A lot of those candidates aren't doing as well as might have been expected. And it certainly is one of those things where if you look at the person who's supposedly the chief rival for Trump for the Republican nomination,

Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida, he had a pretty good night. He won. He had coattails in his state, other candidates that he'd sort of endorsed and who won. And Trump didn't. And I saw a little clip with Trump yesterday, Peter, maybe you saw it too, where he was interviewed in advance of the polls closing. And the interviewer was saying, well, how are you going to react if your candidates lose or win? He said, well, if they win, I deserve all the credit. And if they lose, I don't deserve any of the blame. And classic Trump, right? I

think that his orientation is that he can't fail. He can only be failed. And somebody else used that line. And I thought it's a very apt way of describing his psychology. So I think that there's a big story emerging about what this means for Trump. He had been signaling that next week, he was probably going to announce his candidacy again. A lot of the exit polling suggested that independent voters in particular don't want him to run. And there might be a number of people in the Republican Party who say, we don't really want to take him on, but we really don't want him as our nominee. So I thought that was quite interesting. There were a number of other interesting stories as well. But the last

point I'll make, and I want to hear what you took away from the coverage that you watched or read, Peter, is that this kind of result gives Biden more flexibility. There's also a pretty strong consensus among independent voters that they don't want Biden to run again. But a result like this, where his party did better than was expected, he's not that popular, the economy is not in very good shape, but it didn't turn into a rout for the Republicans, and it might turn into an even better night for the Democrats. That gives him the protection, I guess, that he was probably hoping for, to make his own decision about whether to run on his own terms in the months to come. I still think probably his party will be better off with a different

candidate. But I think we also saw that the Democrats weren't as divided in the run-up to this election as they appeared to have been in the past. And one of the central issues, you mentioned abortion, I think, which did affect turnout, was one of those things that they were pretty united on. I think it was second rated issue in the exit polls after inflation. And 76% of people who said that abortion was the issue for them voted Democrat. 70 odd percent of those who said inflation was the issue for them voted Republican. So abortion did turn out to be almost as powerful an issue, which affected turnout, I think, and helped the Democrats a lot. And it did help the Democrats, no question about that,

because you even had Republicans saying, listen, the independents slid towards the Democrats in a lot of races, and that was a key factor. And some Republicans slid toward the democrats over that same issue so it had an impact there's no question uh i'll make you know one point about trump um not all his candidates did poorly or lost uh you know jd vance who was sort of on again, off again, Trump candidate, won in Ohio, the Senate race. Herschel Walker's still in the game in Georgia, unbelievably, it seems, but he's still there

and still could end up winning. It's probably going to go to a runoff, so it'll be another month before we know the likely outcome in Georgia, and that may determine who actually controls the Senate. So that's why that's a long way off. One of the most interesting moments I watched, and it was like 2 o'clock in the morning,

when Kevin McCarthy, who is the Republican leader, minority leader in the House, and would be the speaker, replacing Nancy Pelosi if the Republicans win the House, or was expected to be the speaker if they won the House, it was 2 o'clock in the morning before he came out to speak to reporters and to his followers. And by then, they never showed a wide shot of the room, so I don't know, but it didn't look like there were more than a dozen

or two dozen people in the room. It certainly didn't sound like there was any more than that. And he tried to give a speech which was, you know, we won, we won the house and nobody thought we could and we have. And, you know, if they do, it's probably going to be in single digits and maybe as low as one or two. One of their big promises is they're going to impeach Biden. You've got to be really careful running an impeachment process

if that's the strength of your majority in the House of Representatives because you lose a couple of your own members and you're going to be in for full embarrassment. But for McCarthy, there's already talk within Republican circles that he's got to wear part of this, I was going to say loss. It's not a loss, but it's… Disappointment. It's definitely a disappointment.

Definitely a disappointment. That's the point is the psychology for both parties i think that you know is is really what is affected um a lot here the democrats will feel that there's some hope uh whereas in the last several weeks uh you and i probably both saw that that sense of impending doom coming from a lot of Democratic spokespeople. They were kind of bracing for an impact that was going to be pretty unpleasant, they thought. And now they're probably hoping that Trump runs and gets the nomination. I don't dispute your point that some of his candidates did okay. But I think on the other side, you know, there were some very high profile ones that were really deep into the election denial.

The Kerry Lakes and the Ron Bolducs, I think, in New Hampshire and Oz, obviously, in Pennsylvania. Really high profile people. And let's not forget that Trump campaigned a lot. He was on a stage a lot uh during the last several weeks and he loves to bask in the adulation when there's victories and even when they're not victories he likes to claim victory and bask in that um and i gather he didn't really say anything last night which is sort of telling um you know very limited comment so i think he feels a bit chastenedened, but he's got to wonder whether or not.

Well, I don't know if he would wonder, but people should wonder whether or not his party will be looking at him and saying. is it really possible now that that base and the accessible Republican voter combined is just a little tired of some of the excesses of Trumpism and that the country is more willing to organize in response to it, especially young voters, especially women. And if that's true, then are the Republicans really likely to try to double down on this abortion issue? I don't think so. I'd be surprised. I think when we look at the evangelical influence in the Republican Party, one of the things that's kind of become sadly clear in the last few years is that it doesn't seem to have very much to do with faith. Evangelical voters who align with Trump, it's hard to square that with the expressions of faith that they profess. They're supporting people who do things and say things that seem completely at odds with the religious aspect of evangelical religiosity.

So I think there's going to be a little bit of introspection, maybe more than a little bit of introspection on the Republican side. They probably should look at people like McCarthy and others who said two things about the January 6th riots and decide that you need to pick a lane. You can't decide that you're for truth sometimes, except when Trump is too threatening, and then you're not for truth anymore. You're just for whatever Trump wants you to say. I think that's been the giant dilemma. Shouldn't be a dilemma, but the giant dilemma for a lot of Republicans for the last several years, and it's probably time that they solved it and maybe last night's results, give them an opportunity to actually talk about it that way and to settle that issue out. Well, if McCarthy doesn't get the job, if in fact the Republicans get to

run the House of Representatives, if he doesn't get the job the question will become who does do they go deeper into the maga hole with a guy like jim jordan who some are talking about already or do they go the other way and run the risk of an all out fight with trump um i agree with you i think Trump thought they were going to do much better last night than they did. His son was, as soon as the polls closed in many parts of the country, you know, put out a tweet last night, you know, Donald Jr., you know, has got a mouth on him, right? And he's never been shy about using it.

And he just put bloodbath, exclamation point, exclamation point, assuming that it was going to be a bloodbath that it was going to be a red wave yeah it wasn't any and i haven't seen anything since uh from him and you're right didn't hear um donald trump during the the former president during uh during the night maybe he'll speak at some point today um but he you know if he's still planning as you said if he's still planning to declare next week then he's gonna have to say something today and it's gonna have to somehow put a a spin on it uh the the at least attempts to make him look good i don don't know how he does that. What's that expression about lipstick?

It's pretty hard. Well, if there's ever been a practitioner of the mirrors part of politics, it's been Donald Trump. So I'm sure he'd find a way to, just as he decided that he had the largest crowds in the history of any presidential inauguration, he'll find a way to make some sort of nonsensical case that this was a big victory for him. I think that the conversation probably starts to move towards Ron DeSantis pretty aggressively. One challenge, I think, is DeSantis sort of built

his name as the heir apparent to Trumpism. I gather he even put out a video or an ad recently that compared himself to Jesus. And so, if Republican introspection takes them to a place where they go, maybe not Trump, does it take them to a place where, you know, DeSantis, who yesterday said, you know, Florida is where woke goes to die. Is that really what the Republicans want? Is that really what's going to position them for greater success in the future? If they're being really rational about this? I think the answer is no. I think the answer is that in a crappy economy with an unpopular incumbent in midterm elections, which usually favor the out party, this didn't work out that way. And the best read of why is that the combination of things that the Republicans were championing and

the way in which they were prosecuting their case, whether it was through support of the January 6th insurrection, or just the various harsh messages, the divisive messages that both people, good people on both sides, all of that kind of thing. I think it's more that. I think that it'll be hard for them to break their addiction to that kind of politics. And probably the odds are better that they won't than they will. But I think the odds are a little bit better this morning than they were yesterday morning, that Republicans might have that kind of introspection. And I hope they do. And I hope conservatives in other places, including Canada, look at the lessons to be drawn there. Because I do think that voters on some level tire of the chaos and the division. And if they associate one party with that more, that party will pay a price.

Before we move on, two quick things. One, when you were running through the kind of trump endorsed candidates who didn't do well you you had carrie lake's name in there she's running for governor of arizona um i think we got to be careful of that and i checked the numbers i mean she's down 10 points but there's only like a little bit about a little more than a half of the vote in and it's mainly that vote has been very much pocketed in the sort of democratic areas so anything could happen there including a claim that the election was rigged which she's always said she would use if she loses and she was given some support by there being problems with the voting system in Arizona early in the night last night.

Everybody's saying it was nothing, you know, it wasn't a huge problem, but it was enough to give them some pause, right? So we'll see what happens there. It doesn't affect the big standings on the board in terms of the House or the Senate because it's a gubernatorial race. But it's worth mentioning that that's still a long way from a decision. And that may also take days. We know what the Arizona voting track record is like in terms of how long it takes to make final determinations. Yeah, that's a good point. We should watch it. I think it was, you know, I was sort of looking at it as one of those. Like, I had been sensing from the polling data that Herschel Walker was going to do better than he has been so far.

You know, he may still win. But Carrie Lake was getting a ton of, you know, free publicity, basically a lot of media coverage because she was that bombastic, edgy is too kind a word to describe what she was. But she was playing the Trump playbook in that sense that she knew that if she said something super outrageous, that all of a sudden a situation where Trump felt he would have something nice to be able to talk about thereete budaj before on this podcast and i've sort of said my i think he's the most effective politician i've seen in the united states in a number of years just sheer brain power being able to articulate the policies that he's representing he's in the in the biden cabinet and he was a very effective campaigner for the democratic

nomination the last time and i know that the conventional wisdom is that america won't elect a gay individual to that office of president and and maybe that's true but there were two openly gay governors elected for the first time, I believe, last night. And I look at those as being kind of hopeful signs as well that people will, voters, voters are prepared not to consider sexual orientation or sexual identity's a pickup on something you said about how Biden, who looked like he was in deep, deep trouble in the last few weeks as a result of everything, the economic indicators and the impending midterms and the likelihood that they were going to get drubbed,

that hasn't happened in terms of what voters have said. And one wonders, as many Democrats have been wondering, should he really run for a second term? Not just the record, which, depending on how you look at it, isn't that bad, or his age. He would be the oldest person ever to run for presidency if he if he chooses to again in in 24 um do you think any do you think last night suddenly i mean this is a guy who was always maintained i'm going to do better than you think i'm going to do he's always maintained that kind

of thing even before he was a presidential candidate. And once again, it seems like that phrase is going to ring true again here. But in terms of planning his medium to long-term future, does last night change anything, do you think? It's hard to know what his uh headspace was before this whether he didn't really want to run but didn't feel like he should throw in the towel or whether he really wanted to run and worried that he wasn't going to get a chance to uh because um his numbers weren't very good and he was going to take a drubbing in the midterms. But so I don't know if it's going to change his thinking because I don't know where his head was at.

But I do think that this gives him flexibility. This gives him a choice to leave on his own terms. I think the when I look at him as a kind of a political performer, he reminds me of that, you know, aging hockey player, let's say, who, you know, used to have seven or eight great shifts in a game. And now it's one good shift. And the others are pretty, pretty average. He was not the most effective campaigner for the Democrats in the last several weeks. It was Barack Obama, I believe, who probably was. Now, Obama might always have been better than Biden, but Biden was always better in the past than he has been of late. He just doesn't have the same

energy level. He doesn't have the same ability to clearly articulate why people should vote for him. If he did better, I'd hazard a guess that it has more to do with people not wanting to support the Republicans, either because of the abortion issue or because of Trumpism or because of the chaos or because of January 6th. But that's probably what helped Biden last night, not Biden. And if people close to him are thinking about him and his party, I think the best advice is to find some way to signal that it's time for somebody else to pick up that mantle. All right. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back,

we're going to talk for a moment about Doug Ford and the Ford reset on the notwithstanding clause. That's when we come back. And welcome back. You're listening to The Bridge, the Wednesday edition, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth with Bruce Anderson. You're listening on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. And, of course, now on Wednesdays and Fridays,

you can also watch us on my YouTube channel. Just go to my bio on Twitter or Instagram. You'll see the link. I'll take you right there. You can subscribe, no cost, and you'll get it sent to you each time we do it. And there's been a very nice response to that. Don't forget to hit the like button.

I think that's the call to action in the YouTube world If you like it But there's been so many comments already They're saying Mansbridge why don't you Improve your dress You used to look pretty good When you were on television doing The national and things

Now you look like You don't look like that You were just out in the back 40 cutting some logs. I was. I was. I came in from the back 40 with the sheep and the cattle and you name it. And then they look at Bruce and they go, look at that guy. He's like, he's so well-dressed.

He's turned out, yeah. Okay. Doug Ford. How did he turn out this week? He was getting hammered last week on this issue of using the notwithstanding clause to ensure that kids could go to school. And when I say hammered, I mean hammered. There was not a lot of support for him out there,

and he was getting editorials written in newspapers outside of Canada talking about it. So what happens this week? Well, what happens this week is he says, okay, I'm withdrawing that. I'm not going to do that. But they've got to come back to the bargaining table, the education workers. And in fact, that's what they're in the process of doing. Now, anytime a politician, a premier, a first minister kind of backtracks on a plan, it can cut both ways. It can look like you don't have a backbone, you don't know how to stand up to your critics. Or it can look like, all right, you know, I accept that that was a mistake. And I'm going to do my best to recover from that. And this is my plan to recover from it.

And that can look like, depending on who's looking, that can look like leadership. That can look like strong leadership at a time of a degree of crisis, chaos. So people are kind of picking their sides on this one, but there is no doubt there was a 180 on the issue of using a notwithstanding clause. How do you look at it as somebody who has obviously over the years advised politicians of both conservative and liberal stripe on what to do in terms of chaos and crisis?

How do you look at this one? Well, I think it was a mistake by Premier Ford to use the notwithstanding clause. I think the, or to threaten to use the notwithstanding clause. I think the or to threaten to use the notwithstanding clause. I think it's relatively clear to me from the various legal scholars and commentators on constitutional law matters that he didn't have to in order to keep the kids in school, which is what he said it was all about. And so choosing to use it was either a mistake that, you know, was born of trying to gain some political advantage from looking like you wanted to be tough on these workers who are not highly paid workers, who are the kind of people that a lot of folks can identify with as, you know, probably struggling to make ends meet a little bit right now.

And so using this kind of very heavy handed weapon in this situation would have seemed like overreach as a political gesture. And when it became apparent that it was also not necessary it just looked clumsy and it looked aggressive and i think that um for that reason the feeling that ford had put himself in a situation where you know he likes to be positioned as the friend of the little guy the person who will take that shovel out and help shovel your car out of the snow and can relate to the average person. Well, this wasn't that. This was, you know, a guy leading a government of very well-paid people taking a particularly harsh action against people who don't make that much money and who work at really important jobs in our school systems. But I think the other factor that probably weighed in the decision

to stand down the use of the notwithstanding clause was that the labor movement came together pretty quickly. And they threatened the kind of action that would have been really damaging for Ford. The amount of trauma that they would have caused and the conveniences of Ontarians on an everyday basis could have been really significant. And there are already such strains in public services, whether it's in health or education or otherwise, that I think there was a visual I saw the other day of an entire cadre of union leaders from different unions in the province saying, we're going to take action in support of our brothers and sisters who are involved in this dispute. And I think that was a threat that Ford decided he wasn't willing to, a risk he wasn't willing to take. So I think it was the right decision for

him to stand down the use of the notwithstanding clause. I think it was a mistake to go in. There probably be some people around him who say, well, you know, the tactic worked because we scared them back to the table. But I don't think that's a reasonable analysis of what happened here. To say nothing of the fact that there was very, very little editorial or other commentary support for what he did, even from some of the normal voices that you would have expected to support what he did. Last thing thing is I think it was another bad outing for his education minister who was kind of left to defend the policy. Maybe it was his idea. I don't know. But one way or another, you know, to be saying the only thing that matters is kids being in school when you're kind of defending the use of the notwithstanding clause

like this and then days later you know to be backing down on that policy and re-entering negotiations you're basically saying well there are other things that matter we're going to try to make sure the kids are back in school but there are other subjects that need to be dealt with including the the compensation arrangements for these workers. Okay, I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I guess what I was trying to get at was, here's a leader who made a very firm position clear on Friday afternoon, I believe it was, or Thursday afternoon.

And within a matter of 72 or 96 hours, that decision was flipped 180 degrees. When he made the initial call in his statements, he was adamant about his position, right? And there he was a couple of days later sheepishly to a degree basically saying if he didn't use the actual words it was all over his face i was wrong i gotta get out of this and i'm gonna get out of it now, right now. Um, and I, I'm not sure that we see that enough in leadership generally. Forget about Doug Ford personally and the differences a lot of people have with him and

his government, but as a leader being able to say, you know, I was wrong and I'm going to change it. I'm going to change it now. Hmm. Yeah. He's good at that, actually. It's one of the qualities, I think, that he has that helps him be successful politically.

You may remember he did that on the Green Belt some time ago. Now, there's another Green Belt issue that's on the horizon for him. But he's not uniquely, but relatively uniquely, I think this is your point. I agree with it, Peter, able to and willing to say, I hear you, folks. I think he actually uses that language. And so you don't want us to do this. We're not going to do this because we're for you. On the understanding, and he's correct in believing that this is the right way to interpret this, is that people will go, okay, we're not going to endlessly vilify you for a decision that you thought you would take but then decided not to. We're just going to move on. And some people will probably go a little further to the positive for him and say, as you just hinted at, it's good that if something is done and we don't like it and we raise our voices, that he hears that and we can affect change. Because you're right, that people don't see that as often as they might like to in terms of how our governments work. All right. We're going to wrap this up in a moment, but I wanted to give you an opportunity to drop in on the theme that we've had throughout this week.

I've been calling it a week of remembering as we lead up to Friday and Remembrance Day. Now, I talked to Dr. Tim Cook, who, you know, from the War Museum in Ottawa, his new book on the First World War, one of many he's written on the First World War. Ted Barris, we talked to yesterday about his new book on the Battle of the Atlantic. And we talked to Brian Stewart yesterday as well, you know, somebody you know well, a former war correspondent and foreign correspondent for the CBC. And the general theme throughout this week has been this issue of remembering and the importance of Remembrance Day and how Canadians feel about it, how they should feel about it.

I know you've done some research on this topic in past years, and I'm just wondering if you can give us kind of your thoughts based on some of that research about, about Remembrance Day and about Canadians attachment to it. Yeah. I mean, I did a little bit of research, a couple of, maybe about a year ago, year and a bit more. And it wasn't so much about what do people know and what do they remember, but do they want to remember? Do they want to be reminded of this?

And I come up with this idea, which I'm continuing to kind of nudge forward in conversation about creating what is effectively a digital poppy that people can use in their email signatures and their avatars on social media and that sort of thing. Because the idea came to me during COVID because people couldn't go out and buy the poppies in the same way that they could have as easily in the past. And also because buying a poppy in many instances involves carrying cash and a lot of people don't carry cash anymore. So it occurred to me that there was going to be declining use of this small symbol to help continue the message of remembrance, the idea of remembrance and the storytelling around the sacrifice of veterans. So i talked to the legion who run the poppy program they're very interested in this and i and and so i did a little bit of research to find out if one of these was available you could

download it and make a contribution uh in exchange for downloading it and being able to use it for the month that people are intended to wear poppies would would you do it? And one of the most interesting things for me was, first of all, millions of people said that they would do this. So as an opportunity to raise more money for the poppy campaign, alongside the physical poppy sales, doesn't need to change that. There's a lot of upside there. And I hope this idea continues to develop. And if listeners are interested, they can send me an email and we can talk about how to help advance it. But the other thing that was really interesting was how many young people said they would do this. And I just can't help but believe that young people using the symbol as a way to participate in remembrance and to raise the visibility among other young people, their peer group, their friends, their followers.

This would be a good idea, and I was encouraged in particular by the huge numbers of young people who said we'd pay $2 or $5 to be able to use this digital poppy for a month. Good idea. Let's see how far we can nudge that one down the road, because I think that could be a real contribution to remembering. I'm hoping for some of your thoughts, by the way, for tomorrow's edition of Your Turn on Remembrance Day and on the power

of remembering. So drop me a line at themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com, themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. There have already been dozens and dozens of emails sent in just in the last 24 hours on this topic, so it's clearly dear to some of your hearts. So drop me a line if you want to be a part of that the random ranter i know tomorrow also has something to say on on remembrance day as well all right bruce thanks so much for uh today bruce will be back on friday for good talk with chantelle a bear i'm peter mansbridge thanks so much for listening on this day and we'll talk to you again in 24 hours.