The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Special Encore Edition - An interview with Former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney (2013)

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Listen to Peter Mansbridge's chat with Former Prime Minster of Canada Brian Mulroney in South Africa in 2013 for the CBC.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from this week's Encore edition of The Bridge. And this is a different Encore edition, very much so. It's Brian Mulrooney in his own words about his achievements. And hello there. If you've been listening over the last week to the mission he accomplished in terms of South Africa. The freeing of Nelson Mandela, the end of apartheid, his special relationship with Mandela and South Africa. And you've probably heard me more than a few times talk about how I saw that as, well, one of his great accomplishments. And one of the things that many Canadians perhaps aren't quite aware of, enough anyway. There were lots of things to think about Brian Mulroney over different eras of his prime ministership and his time in political office.

Some good, some not so good. But South Africa was one that stood out and received universal acclaim. And you heard some of that yesterday on the bridge conversations with Morin Butts, conversation number 14, which was about the Mulroney legacy. And if you've heard me on the bridge over the last week or on the many other programs that I was invited to take part in, my old employee, CBC, asked me on to The Current last week with Matt Galloway to talk about Mulroney, and I talked about the South Africa story,

among other things. I was on Front Burner Monday, and same kind of thing. Plus on a lot of different other programs across private networks across the country. And I would often refer to a conversation I had with Mulroney at that time on the passing of Nelson Mandela and the end of apartheid, and the work that he did, Brian Mulroney, to achieve those goals.

And the conversation we had was in Pretoria, which is just north of Johannesburg. It's kind of the administrative capital. And it was where Mandela was about to lie in state. And people by the thousands walked past his body, tens of thousands, including me. I did as well. So we were set up doing live coverage of the events

surrounding the death of Nelson Mandela. We were set up in Pretoria. And Brian Mulroney came by to have a chat with me on air. And we stood, we were actually on the second floor in a balcony overlooking the procession route. And it was noisy with both people and vehicles. And so when I play this tape, you're going to hear some traffic noise at different times. It's particularly bad at the beginning, but you can still understand

what's going on. I want to thank the CBC. Obviously, this belongs to the CBC, but it's available to anybody. You can listen to it. It's on the website. There's no charge. You can just Google the interview or you can watch it on CBC Gym. It's there for you as there are thousands of other interviews on different subjects thanks to your national public broadcaster.

So I thank the CBC for this opportunity to air it, especially seeing as I talked about it on the CBC so many times in the last few days. So we're going to air that interview. It was on my program called One-on-One. And so you're going to hear the one-on-one music and stuff like that and the throw-to-breaks, and we'll use those as our throw-to-breaks as well. So enough from me.

Why don't we get started on this encore edition of The Bridge. Here it is, Brian Mulroney. He was Prime Minister from 1984 to 1993. Thank you all very much. While he won two majorities, he also divided Canadians on issues like free trade, Mr. Turner, you do not have a monopoly on patriotism, the GST, and Meech Lake. This was all about Canada, about the unity of our country. But there was no division on how he handled one of the major international issues of his time,

South Africa. Because if Nelson Mandela was liberated, surely South Africa itself could not be far behind. This week in Pretoria for Nelson Mandela's funeral. We talked about that and the impact it had on his life then and now. Now, you must have been in there. I've been there. Brian Mulrooney, our guest this week. One has to wonder what emotions are going through your mind as somebody who, you know,

played a role in the overall Mandela story at a time like this yesterday and then through today. What are those emotions? Well, yesterday I really was just here to say goodbye to Nelson Mandela privately. He was a major player in the world, on the world scene. Had a major player both in my political life and as it turned out in my personal life. Once I got to know him, and I got to know him quite well, his qualities were such that they really impacted me. I was thoroughly impressed with him and his life and his achievements.

So it was a special moment yesterday. Today you'll have the opportunity to say the final goodbye up there in the lying in state. Have you thought through that moment? I haven't. This symbolizes, of course, the extraordinary pressure that he was under and the decisions that were made that impacted his family.

When we were talking earlier, Peter, you mentioned us going back so long. That same period of time since we first met was almost identical to the time he spent in jail. So, he lost his wife, lost many members of his family, his mother, his youth, normal life. He lost everything. 30 years he was taken out of society, taken out of his personality and thrown away in that jail. And so for him to have maintained his principles, to come out of there with charity in his soul, believe me, I don't know very many people who could have done that.

So he was a commanding personality, but he was an icon as well. You know, I'm often asked about the people that I've known and met in politics and I was privileged to serve with some big ones. Thatcher, Reagan, Bush, Cole, and so on. But there were two who were in a class apart, who were up here. They were not great politicians in that sense, great leaders. They were icons. And one was Pope John Paul and the other was Nelson Mandela. They were completely apart. They had a special dimension about them that set them apart. You know, people have talked over this past week about how we will never see his kind again,

that he was an incredibly special person, the one of a kind person. You saw him up close for more than the glance. But what was it like being on the receiving end of those? Could it be stares? Could it be smiles? I mean, did one really feel that you were in the presence of somebody who was special? Yeah, as soon as you saw him, of course, you saw his history. As soon as he sat there or smiled or was angry at someone else, you saw the Nelson Mandela who became the icon that we now know.

And so it was difficult to segregate him from his personal reality. And his personal reality was so marked by sacrifice and enormous personal and family challenges that I couldn't really get my mind around the two people. He was the same guy, but I thought of him in two ways. Personally, he was a charming, thoughtful, funny, self-effacing guy. Business relationships, he knew where he was, who he was, who the boss was. And he didn't hesitate to make that known.

I've seen him at Commonwealth meetings or with others on bilaterals. You didn't have to ask very often who is the president of that. You said he impacted your personal life. Yeah. Can you share that with us? Well I just used to think how inconsequential some of the things we fought over in the House of Commons in Ottawa really are compared with extraordinary personal human achievement. He went through every day. Remember of course that he had no idea that he'd ever get out or that he'd see the kind of end of life that he did. He told me a number of times that he thought he'd probably die in jail.

He thought he'd ever see his children again, his wife again, and so on. It's a terrible thing. Already 27 years is almost a complete lifetime for a lot of people. So every time I saw him I was reminded of that. I was reminded of how different his experience was, how more elevated his experience was than mine and many others with whom I dealt in the House of Commons on Canadian politics. Some of the things that we did, Peter, when paled into insignificance when compared with what he was trying to do.

So he made a profound impact on me. When we come back, you sat across the table from people who felt, in the 1980s still, that Mandela was a terrorist, he was a communist, Margaret Thatcher being one of them. Did you really have to say at one point to her, Margaret, you're on the wrong side of history? Absolutely. That's one of the kinder things I said. She was pretty ferocious, believe me. More from Brian Mulrooney in just a moment. Hope you're enjoying this encore edition of not only one-on-one, but The Bridge this week as we reflect on Brian Mulrooney.

But here it's Brian Mulrooney in his own words, talking about his own times in office, and especially on the South Africa question. More of the interview when we come back. March takes us to Britain and the Commonwealth Prime Minister's Conference. The big issue, what to do with South Africa and her apartheid and extreme racial segregation.

The South African Prime Minister didn't think any action was necessary. Our policy is one which is called by an Afrikaans word, apartheid. And I'm afraid that has been misunderstood so often. It could just as easily and perhaps much better be described as a policy of good neighborliness. The rest of the Commonwealth didn't agree with Mr. Fairburt. After some preliminary fencing, the conference faced the question squarely, with Canada taking the lead. I've made it very clear that Canadians as a whole unequivocally deplore the practice of apartheid.

The time had come for Mr. Fairbaird to make his choice, and he chose. South Africa is no longer a member of the Commonwealth. You say that he could have died in jail. There were many people responsible for the fact that he didn't. And you have been given credit over the years for being one of those people for the stand that you and the candidate took on the apartheid regime. Before I get to the specifics, what was it in your life that made you feel so passionate about that issue? Because, I mean, there's being against apartheid and there's being against apartheid. And many leaders had issued many statements over

the years. But you took it another step. What was it in your life that made you convince you had to do that? Well, when I was a young progressive conservative, I can remember being in Ottawa, the Chateau Laurier, when Prime Minister Diefenbaker came back from the Commonwealth Conference, having urged the expulsion of South Africa from the Commonwealth precisely because of the apartheid policy. And Joe Clark and I and others were out there waving flags welcoming Dief back to Ottawa. It was a great moment. So I remembered that of course, but also Peter, if Canada, middle power kind of thing, doesn't stand for human rights, the defense of human rights and individual liberties. You know, what do we stand for?

And so when I came in, it occurred to me that after Mr. Diefenbaker, Canada's support for Mandela and this kind of thing was rather tepid and inconsistent with our fundamental values. So we set a new course where we would use the G7, the Commonwealth, the Sommet de la Francophonie and the United Nations at all times and in all circumstances to promote the interests of Nelson Mandela, his freedom, the legalization of the ANC and the emergence of the end of apartheid and the emergence of South Africa as a multiracial democratic state. That was our priority. And we did all kinds of things, beginning with the appointment of Stephen Lewis, which was an unusual appointment, to the United Nations where he did a fabulous job and highlighted this enormous problem and then we took it step after step.

Joe Clark did a fabulous job in this and we finally got it done with the Commonwealth but that's why I felt that it was a travesty and a shame that we were not doing more and I determined we would. You sat across the table from people who and a shame that we were not doing more and I determined we would. You sat across the table from people who felt in the 1980s still that Mandela was a terrorist, he was a communist, that there should be no deal made with him. And some of these people were not only friends of yours but people in many ways you looked up to. And obviously Margaret Thatcher being one of them. Did you really have to say at one point to her,

Margaret you're on the wrong side of history? Absolutely. That's one of the kinder things I said. She was pretty ferocious, believe me. And I'll spare you what she said to me. No, no, please don't spare me. No, it was a very vigorous exchange. Like, for example, Margaret would say things like, but Brian, you don't understand that Nelson Mandela is a communist.

And I say, well, Margaret, how do you know that? He's been in jail for 27 years. Did he call you? Have you been talking to him now? Did he tell you that? Because if you're saying that simply because communist regimes around the world are helping him, financially and other ways for the ANC, they're doing that because you refuse to help. So he's looking for friends elsewhere.

And if I were in jail for 27 years, I'd be grateful for that support. And you'd probably be saying of me, but I'm a communist when I get out. But Margaret, I'll bet you a dollar to a donut right now that when Nelson Mandela walks out of that jail, he's no more of a communist than you or me or Ronald Reagan. So I said, I fear that you are placing your nation on the wrong side of history. And all I'm concerned about is making certain that Canada turns out to have been on the right side of history on this great moral challenge. Did she ever change her mind in a way that she came to you and said you know

you were right about that? No, but in lunches and travels after she said to me things like well you know Brian did you find me a little a little too vigorous on on the issue and I said I didn't find you vigorous I simply found you wrong some have raised including the former Governor General Adrian Clarkson that you should have been on that podium yesterday, sharing your feelings and your remarks at the memorial, along with some of the leaders who perhaps didn't have as a justifiable reason to be on that podium as you would have had if you'd been there.

Well, look, Peter, I just came here to say goodbye to Nelson Mandela. That's all. And I was happy to be there. You know, whoever the organizing committee was, they organized it in difficult circumstances. There were a lot of their new allies in Britain and what happened to them. They invited me to speak.

But Canada has a place on that stage at a time of remembering how he became what he became after he left the prison. Well, it's up to them to decide who they want to hear from on a day like that. As I say, I was just honoured to be part of the Canadian delegation. If you had been there, you know what you would have said? Yeah. What would you have said? Well, one thing that John Kretzky and I were talking about is that we would have said privately to him, Nelson, don't let them hold any ceremony in a huge stadium because you never can tell

what the weather is going to be like. You want to make certain you've got the joint full. So Jean and I had a good time talking about the chit-chat we'd have with Nelson. But no, I would simply have remembered the fact that this is one of the, he was one of the genuine greats of history. Genuine greats of history. genuine greats of history. And I was privileged to be in his company. You talk about the moment with Jean-Claude Chien. This is an unusual time because you've got a bunch

of prime ministers, former prime ministers together on the flight over, the long flight over from Canada. We've seen pictures- 17 hours. 17 hours. There's probably more time than you've spent with any of those people over the years. It's a long time. But we've seen the official photographs of all of you sitting together on the plane. When the cameras were away, do you have things in common? Oh, sure. We had the Prime Minister led a very interesting

discussion. We all participated. It was a delightful, we had dinner together on the flight, for an hour and a half or two hours. What did you talk about? Well we talked about international politics for me. We talked about our personal experiences growing up in Canada. how different they all were and how Canada is so different today from what it was in, for example, Chrétien's childhood and mine in rural Quebec, as opposed to what you see evolving now, the improvements in Canada, and how proud we all were in our own ways of having been able to shape the country so that we have this magnificent Canada today. The Prime Minister was very good and so were all the

participants. You know the presidents have that former presidents club in the United States. We don't have anything like that. No. Should we have? Not that I'm aware of. Is it a club you haven't been invited to? I haven't been invited to yet.

Should there be, though? Well, Jean Pretzian made the point publicly that there's a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience available in former prime ministers. And he thought people should take advantage of it on a more frequent basis, perhaps a more structured basis. And I tend to agree with that.

First time I've agreed with Gretzky in a long time. Did the current situation with the current prime minister come up at all? And the troubles he's had this year on the Senate issue? No, because compared to some of the troubles that I had, this is a piece of cake. And Kretsch as well. So we just thought he was doing great. No trouble at all.

Still to come. When I began in 1984, Nelson Mandela was not only in jail, but he couldn't enter that building and play any role at all. He couldn't vote. He couldn't get elected. He was the prisoner, not only in his jail cell, but he was a prisoner in his own country. Final thoughts with Brian Mulroney right after this. All right, let's get back to the interview with Brian Mulroney, his reflections on the passing of Nelson Mandela and his time in office.

We have come to express our appreciation to them directly for the role they have played to secure the emancipation of our people from the latter prison represented by the continuing system of apartheid tyranny. We have come so that we could touch them and interact with them so that they can see in our very responses that we consider them friends and comrades in arms on whom we depend for the victory of our common cause. We are here, Mr. Prime Minister, to give you and the nation you lead new tasks in the struggle against apartheid for the transformation of South Africa into a united, democratic, and non-racial country. As you leave here in the next 24 hours, what's the takeaway for you? What do you take away from this last farewell

to Nelson Mandela? Well, right here. When I began in 1984, Nelson Mandela was not only in jail, but he couldn't enter that building and play any role at all. He couldn't vote. He couldn't get elected. He was the prisoner not only in his jail cell, but he was a prisoner in his own country. He was a slave. And all of a sudden, this has been completely transformed, and South Africa is what you see here, a booming, a very prosperous country, the locomotive of economic activity in Africa,

and one of the most impressive nations in the world's states today. So that's what I take away, what he has done for 40 million people, and the symbol that he's given, he's become for the rest of the world. I say to myself, you know, I never thought this would happen to me when I was growing up in Baycomo. I never thought I'd be privileged to meet people like that. This was meeting

a genuinely great man. On that, we'll leave it. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Peter. Good to be with you. Yeah. Allow me, allow me once more to express

our deep gratitude to the people of Canada and their political representatives for their support and solidarity. It is in our common interest that apartheid should be eliminated immediately. Every day that it survives means more suffering for our people.

Acting in concert, we can and we must in the name of humanity bring to a speedy end this crime against humanity. kwa hivyo kwa mtano ya mawari. Remember, remember that the people of South Africa love you all. Thank you. And there you go. Once again, thank you to the CBC. That was the audio version of the old TV program, One on One. And it relates to the discussion that I had with Brian Mulroney in South Africa in 2013 on the passing of Nelson Mandela and some reflections on his own political career.

It was, you know, I've interviewed Brian Mulroney many times, but not quite like that. He was very at ease and had a good time talking about the things that were important to him. The state funeral will take place later in this month in Montreal. There'll also be a ceremony in Ottawa. He's going to lie on the body of our 18th prime minister, will lie in Montreal. There'll also be a ceremony in Ottawa. He's going to line the body of our 18th Prime Minister with Lion State.

And the funeral, you can be sure, will be nationally televised on both all the English networks and the French networks as well, of course. All right, that's going to wrap it up for today, this encore edition of The Bridge, which was actually an encore edition of One on One. I will be back tomorrow with the latest version,

episode of One on One, or latest episode of The Bridge. And the topic tomorrow, it's your turn so it's your version of who you think was the country's best prime minister in terms of not only for the country but for you what what do you think on that question lots of answers already send them into the mansbridge podcast at gmail.com include your name and the location you're writing from. Keep your answers relatively short, please. Paragraph at best works.

And the one I pick off the pile will get a signed copy of one of my books. Alright. Deadline, 6pm tonight. 6pm tonight. 6 p.m. tonight, Wednesday night. All right. Looking forward to talking to you tomorrow.

I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening.