The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Spectacular Sunsets Can Help Soothe The Soul, And We All Need That These Days.

Episode Date: April 21, 2020

A story of how small our world is will start tonight's podcast, and then a special interview on a very different issue that will affect us all. I'm joined by Heather Reisman who runs the Indigo retail chain with about 200 stores across the country. They're all in lockdown but when they and thousands of other stores finally reopen there's a lot at stake and Heather gives us a glimpse into the decisions that are being made right now.

and hello there peter mansbridge here with the latest episode of the bridge daily this was one of those days where you know you fall back on that old phrase, what a small world this is. And here's why. You see the picture, the cover art for today's podcast? You see it whether you notice it on Instagram or Twitter or on my website. I use it to promote the day's podcast. I try to put a different picture up there every day that has something to do with the topic of the day. Well, the picture today is a spectacular sunset from last night in Nova Scotia. And you may have seen on various social media many shots from Nova Scotia from last night of the sunset

because it was spectacular. And because of the kind of day it had been, the kind of couple of days it had been in Nova Scotia, people took that sunset as a sign of something. Well, the person who sent me that picture last night was a fellow by the name of Jim Clark, or James Clark as he's known to many, but I call him Jim because I've known Jim since 1966 when we first met. And I'm not sure I've seen Jim in, I don't know, somewhere around 50 years.

However, we've talked and we've exchanged letters and e-mail over these years. And so it didn't come out of the blue when I got this e-mail from Jim last night and the picture it contained. Now, why do I know Jim? Well, we were in the Navy together. We met in, I guess it would have been late August or early September of 1966 at CFB Esquimalt in Victoria, B.C., where we were taking basic training,

joining the one version of the officer training plan with the Royal Canadian Navy. And so we were in Victoria for, I don't know, three months, something like that, taking basic training where they really, they really, they really ground it out of you. They were up and running every morning at 5.30 or 6 o'clock and doing parade drills and you name it. And then off we went, a small group of us, off we went to take basic flying training.

And we were stationed at that point at Camp Borden near Barrie, Ontario, and we flew chipmunk, a little single-engine aircraft. And after Camp Borden, we went for advanced flying training in Portageville Prairie, where we flew C-45s, expeditors, twin-engine planes. Well, Jim and most of the group got their commission, became legit officers in the Royal Canadian Navy, and off he went to, among other things, fly Sea King helicopters. I didn't get my commission.

The Navy caught on to Peter Vansbridge and the next thing I knew I was working at the CBC. It worked out okay for me. It worked out okay for everybody as it turned out okay for everybody, as it turned out. So, we've stayed in touch over the years, and last night, I get that email with the picture that you see on the cover art. Now, why is it a small world? Well, he sent the picture to someone else as well. He sent it to Ian Hanamansing. You know why?

Because he'd gone to Dalhousie University years after being with me in the Navy. He ended up going to Dal, and one of his classmates was Ian. So he sent him the picture, too. Now, I never knew that. I never knew that the three of us were connected in that way. So I talked, you know, I exchanged notes with Ian today, and we talked about what a small world it is. But Jim, thanks for the picture, because the picture summed up in many ways to me,

what it must have been like in Nova Scotia last night. But it also summed up to me in some ways something very different. Because with the one sunset, you know the sun is going to rise the next day. And that's kind of the same thing with this bigger story that we've been talking about over these last six weeks, which is the COVID-19 story. Boy, do we want to see the sunset on this story. And we want to see the world that's going to follow it. We don't know what that's going to be like, but certain things have to happen in terms of getting ready to find out what it's going to be like.

And so today, as I mentioned last night, I wanted to explore one of these scenarios about what it's going to be like. And so what I decided to do today was talk to a leader in Canada's business, a leader in the Canadian retail industry, to try and get a sense of what it may be like, how they're preparing for a time when businesses that have been shut down in the lockdown will reopen, and how they're going to handle that reopening, and what consumers should assume it's going to be like when reopening does happen.

So here's who I reached out to. I reached out to Heather Reisman. Heather's the founder, chief executive of the Canadian retail chain Indigo Books and Music. She's got stores, I think about a couple of hundred of them across the country. All those stores have been closed. However, Indigo has a busy online operation as well. And the online operation has been carrying on. But the stores will at some point reopen.

And Heather and her team at Indigo have been talking about what's it going to be like when that does happen. So I reached out to her today. I've known Heather for at least 25 years. She used to be on a political panel back in the early 90s that we had at the CBC that I moderated. And she was terrific on that. And she's remained a friend over all these years.

And when I reached out today to her, she was more than happy to have a chat. So I want you to hear it. Listen to what she has to say and how she sees the future unfolding and how they're preparing for that future whenever it may come. We don't know when it'll come. We don't know when things will open up. They'll start to be, we've kind of got the indication that there'll start to be some kind of opening up of the restrictions on businesses within the next month or two, but

it'll hardly be a, you know, flip the switch and everything's back to normal. It's not going to be like that. It's going to be a slow re-entry. But businesses have to prepare, and that's what this conversation is all about. So here she is, Heather Reisman. Heather, let me start by getting a sense of how your operation has been going in the last, whatever, six weeks now or so, because obviously the in-store operation is closed down, but the online operation is still very much going. Exactly. We are really pleased that we are able to serve customers online through our online channel, through indigo.ca. There is real responsibility on our part to run our distribution centers, which do the fulfillment of online orders in a way that is very deliberately consistent with advice we've had from the medical community.

So we do have extreme social distancing and special precautions around disinfectant, etc. But we are able to serve customers during this period through online. And would you say that sort of the online operation is, I mean, I don't want to know all the corporate secrets here, but has online seen a rise in sales as a result of COVID? Yes, we are online businesses up about 300%, which sounds fantastic. And it is at one level fantastic, but it is not nearly enough to cover off how significant a loss is of having 200 stores closed. So we're really grateful for what we can do. We are, of course, happy to be able to serve the customers,

but you can't even come close to making up for the cost of having 200 stores closed now going on six weeks. Well, then you're obviously contemplating the point at which things would reopen. And we don't know when that's going to be, but let's assume it's in the next month or two. When things start to reopen, how have you tried to imagine what that is going to be like and what you're doing to prepare for it? So we're anticipating two things, that our customers and our employees who will come back to the stores will be tentative and respectful of the fact that we haven't conquered this virus. We've just managed to slow it down using social distancing. So with that in mind, we have developed a whole set of protocols that we would implement within the store that will, on the one hand, we think still provide a nice

experience for people who no doubt are dying to get out, but will actually encourage and require the right amount of social distancing. We'll address the same kind of sanitary processes that we put in our warehouses. We'll essentially take the practices that we have been using successfully without a single occurrence of COVID. We will take those practices and we will bring them into the stores. And from what I can tell, both observing in our warehouse and even when I go out for a walk and I see people, we have learned, we've just learned how to behave in a way that is respectful of this enemy. And so we intend to bring these practices right into our stores. And we've developed all the protocols.

We have the things that we require. We'll allow people to literally before they cross over, just as they cross over, use an antiseptic hand cleaner, encourage them to wear gloves, etc., etc. We're just making this a new way of life until we learn that there is a better way for people to determine how to keep themselves safe. So how would you say I'm coming to your store? How is the experience going to be different from the moment I walk in the door? The moment you walk in the door, you'll have the opportunity to, if you are wearing gloves, fine. If you are not wearing gloves or intend to take them off, we will ask you to use a little bit of the special antiseptic, which will be right at the door. We will greet you at a six-foot distance. We will encourage you to enjoy your visit, but to keep a six-foot distance from any other person in the store.

We will encourage you to keep gloves on if you can right during store, and if someone comes in without gloves and they would like them, we will offer them gloves so that when they're touching items, they can have a good shopping experience, but also ensure that the product is safe for other people. So that will be the experience. People in the stores will still talk to you, the way it's set up is the six feet can be protected between you and the person behind the cash. And we will make sure that lineups honor that as well in order to make everybody feel safe. So that's what the experience would be. Some places have considered or are considering taking a temperature when people are coming in. Exactly. We are actually considering that, and we are also considering the question of masks.

I think we're waiting for a little more data. If we're told that masks are the right way to go, our staff will wear them, and we will offer them when people come in. Personally, I think the very best thing you can do before someone crosses the threshold is that quick temperature check that's just on your forehead. And I'm laughing because I never knew so much about this, but we have really taken lots of lessons from the best medical advisors. And yes, the very best thing we know today to determine if someone is at risk is that very first rise in temperature from 98.6 to 99 or 99.1.

And I think we're still exploring whether that would be the right thing to do and getting a bit of advice on it. But it's smart. Do you think that, I mean, most of these measures seem to be ones that are in, well, the short term, that these aren't kind of long term permanent changes to the way we shop? Would you agree with that? Or do you think that there's going to be more to it, that this has been such a significant moment in our lives that it is, in fact, going to change things for the long term. Are you asking whether these protocols will stay in place or whether consumers have gotten so much in the habit of shopping online that it will increase the habit of online shopping? I think probably the latter. Probably that point.

Oh, okay. Because, I mean, obviously some of these other measures are for the short term, whether it's masks or gloves or what have you, but in a permanent way of changing the way we shop, are we looking at something? You know, I could almost answer that two ways. I think the convenience and the robustness of online, there was already huge momentum prior to this, and this will, I think, further accelerate the curve up. The only unknown is whether... So I would say that's the likely outcome,

that it will increase the momentum of the curve up to shopping online or what many of us are introducing, which is click and collect. You put your order in on your phone and then you drive by the store and pick it up, something Indigo is introducing in, I think, a week. So I think that curve is going up. I do wonder though, Peter, whether we've also changed a bit as human beings, a kind of appreciation for each other and for being face-to-face. And in those shopping environments where there is a connection, like I know at Indigo, people call it their happy place, there is a certain humanity, connection, being together. And so I do think that that also is bubbling inside us, this

appreciation for human connection and the value on it. And so, yes, the trajectory looks up for digital because of the convenience, but I do wonder on that. And as you know, I am hoping that Canadians also appreciate that their on-the-ground retailers are the ones who are employing other Canadians. So I would like to think that they do continue to support us. Online, of course, but also in our real world. I think sometimes that for many of us because we've become so attracted to digital

and it's so easy and so simple and you can do things very quickly from the comfort of your home that we at times A, forget that human-to-human contact that is important in life, but also we tend to forget how much contribution to our society's retail stores make, whether you're just talking about the tax base, what have you, in communities and provinces, etc., etc. That obviously if online is going up in numbers, some of these changes you're seeing now, you say you're up 300%, some of that's going to stay, right?

They're going to stay online. What's the impact? Well, I think you're right. What I believe, you're never going to get away from human desire for convenience, and all of the physical retailers have been and continue to work hard at creating really strong digital experiences for their customers. The question is whether, at a certain point, people also realize that these retail environments, they're part of their nodes. They're part of their communities. If we hollow them out totally, you're right. We are the ones that pay a good amount of taxes that support our cities, our communities. We

contribute to these things. So, you know, sometimes making that little trip and stopping by, that's good too. You can't get away from doing what people want, but is what people want, are they conscious of what they want and the implications? I would say it's good for us to be conscious of what we're doing. And if I could just say this, the more that Canadian consumers support Canadian retailers online or in their stores, the richer our communities will be. Who are you getting at there? Let me guess. Well, could it be that big A company? Yes. Yes. I think it's really important that people are conscious. One last point. Sure. Some different retailers,

not in the book business, but I heard this from an automobile dealer. I've mentioned it a couple of times on my podcast. They're actually now rethinking who needs to actually be on site to do their job effectively. And they were thinking in particular of the accounting department,

the marketing department, that they could be in fact, in their case, in the automobile case, they could work from home, supported by the, you know, the ownership in terms of home offices, but that it would be a lot cheaper to run a business simply from square footage factors. If some people who've proven to them through this experience that it works from home, that there may be permanent change there. Yeah, I think what is likely, I think there's two parts to that also. I think what is likely is that people running companies, setting the policies and the practices for companies will understand that if an employee wants some spend more time at home. And I think that could lead

to decisions within office environments to operate in a way which says you don't own your desk. We might, instead of saying we need a desk or an office for everybody, we might say we need capacity for 75% of people and there'll be this rotation. You come in, you take a desk where you can with your cluster, but some number of people will probably be working from home. I think that will come up and there will be a certain efficiency. But the other part of this is exactly what we talked about in stores. I, for one, would never try and optimize to the nth degree what's the least amount of people I can have in. There is a huge advantage to human connection, human face-to-face. For most people, some of their best friends are at work. The people that they have the deepest relationships are at work.

They become, you know, it's not like there's a home life and a work life. It's a life which moves from home to work, and those relationships benefit from face-to-face. You need that face-to-face. So I think this is, again, it's an opportunity to think about, is there a way to be a little more intelligent, provide flexibility to employees, and perhaps be a little more productive? But I think trying to go to the other extreme misses what is fundamental to us as human beings. We are social. And I think we should stay. This is always important. I'll just finish with this point, Peter. I have several preteen and teenage grandchildren, and I was on a Zoom call with six of them who are being homeschooled right now through online learning. And I said to them, wow, are you loving this? And do you think you're going to end up even more connected to your darn

technology than you were before? And they said the opposite. They can't wait to get off their technology and be with their friends. And I think that's a good indicator that we need social interaction. I'm really glad you made that point. I think it's a great point, and it's certainly one for all of us to think about and consider as we move forward in this world that's changing right in front of us. Heather, thanks so much for doing this. You're so welcome. It was a big treat for me. Bye-bye.

Bye. Heather Reisman, the CEO of the Canadian retail chain Indigo Books and Music. So thank you to Heather, who is not only a leading Canadian business person, but also a leading Canadian philanthropist. She, along with her husband, Jerry Schwartz, have had a huge impact on this country in terms of the philanthropy that they have shown. So, that's our podcast for this day.

Lots more to think about and lots more for you to react to. And you shouldn't be shy about reacting, as many of you have not been. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. That's where to write. And as you know, every Friday we put together a podcast of all your thoughts and questions and comments.

And let them roll. And it's one of the popular podcasts of the week. So if you have thoughts on anything to do with this story, and including Heather's comments on it today, love to hear them. So that's the Bridge Daily for this Tuesday. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks for listening. And we'll talk to you again in 24 hours. Thank you.