The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - The Big Project - A "bridge daily" Special

Episode Date: May 13, 2020

You see this picture? Can you name this lake named after a former Canadian prime minister? It's the first in our series of "Big Projects" that the country should consider when COVID-19 is behind us.

and hello there peter mansbridge here with the latest episode of the bridge daily and i have been excited all week about doing this particular episode. Because as I've been saying for the last week or 10 days, we wanted to get at a podcast which focused on a big idea, a big project. Something that we could be thinking about that would help bring us out of all this when that time comes. Kind of like what happened with the Great Depression in the 1930s. There were some big ideas where governments moved eventually on doing things in a big way to try and better society, to try and better society, to try and create jobs,

to try and give kind of a new focus for people. We saw it especially in the States with the New Deal, FDR's New Deal after the Great Depression hit in the early 1930s. Big construction projects, big things that change society. Well, there were some here too. And we're going to get to that in a minute. But what I've asked all of you for, and some of you have responded with some great ideas,

with some potential big projects. And I'm watching them come in, and I know some of you are working on them because I've heard from you, so there will be more. And we'll devote at least one show to your big ideas, your big projects. But I thought we needed to kind of start it off with one, with a big project, with a big idea.

And in this case, from somebody who knows how to deal with those kind of things, because he's got the background for it. For starters, he's from Saskatchewan. Now, I lived in Saskatchewan for one year in the 1970s. And it was great. Lived in Regina, but I was responsible for the whole province as the national reporter for Saskatchewan. So I got to travel a lot.

Not just to the cities, Saskatoon and Prince Albert and Speedy Creek. Swift Current. But, you know, some smaller communities as well. And I loved Saskatchewan. Even though I was not there for long. Only for a year before they moved me to Ottawa. Now, there's something, you know, if you're from Saskatchewan, you know the province.

If you know, you know, if you're from the prairies, you probably know the province. But for many other Canadians, probably don't know too much about Saskatchewan, and they should. And let me tell you a few things. It's the easiest province to draw. Just look at a map. But it's the hardest province to spell.

You know, the Saskatchewan geography is flat, right? It's really flat. But it's a bit jumbled. There is a town in the northern part of Saskatchewan called South End. In the southern part of Saskatchewan, there is a town called North Portal. East End is in the west and West Bend is in the east. Go figure. And virtually alone in Canada, Saskatchewan stands stoutly every year against the scourge of daylight savings time.

But also in Saskatchewan, they produce the world's richest potash and uranium. The people of Saskatchewan are very inventive. Girl guide cookies were invented in Saskatchewan are very inventive. Girl Guide Cookies were invented in Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan also claims to have invented the ATM machine, the cobalt bomb for treating cancer, air seeding technology, and the Cinderella crop of canola, and the concept of universal public Medicare. And there are lots more. Now you're thinking, how did Mansbridge know all that stuff after he only lived there for a year?

Well, I found all of it in a speech by our guest on tonight's podcast, or today's podcast, depending on whenever it is you listen to it. The guest is Ralph Goodale, former Liberal MP, former Liberal member of the Saskatchewan Legislature as well at one point, as the opposition leader the Saskatchewan legislature as well at one point, as the opposition leader in Saskatchewan. But on the federal level as an MP, he was also a cabinet minister. In fact, he had more than a few portfolios, including the top one for many people.

Short of being prime minister, the top one is the finance minister. And Ralph Goodale was the finance minister. So when it comes to spending money, he knows the upside and the downside. He knows the good things that can happen, and he knows the difficulties that can happen on money. So Ralph and I have been in touch over the last couple of weeks

because he has a big idea. It's not necessarily a new idea, but it's new for this moment. And for those who believe that opportunities sometimes exist in difficult times, this may be one of them. So, earlier today I had a good conversation with Ralph about his big project, his big idea.

So let's listen to it now, and, you know, it might help. It might help if you have a map of Saskatchewan handy. You know, dial it up on your computer there in the map section. Just a basic map of Saskatchewan. It'll give you kind of an idea of what he's talking about. If you don't know it, if it's not ingrained in your mind already. Remember, it's the easiest to draw, the hardest to spell. Anyway, we'll listen to this because we're going to use this in a way as a kind of primer to get at more of your ideas for big projects.

Big ideas. But you listen to Ralph because I find this interesting and I listen to it and look at this as kind of a lesson for us when we are exploring this idea of big ideas. So here he is, Ralph Goodale. Ralph, it's good to talk to you, and it's good to talk to you about big ideas, about a big project. So first of all, why don't we start off with you give me a sense of why talking about a big idea, big project, is smart right now?

Well, Peter, first of all, I think it's because we have a very big problem to overcome. Canada is going through a severe, induced recession that was caused by the necessity to stop a pandemic and save people's lives. The job losses and the hit on our GDP is enormous. And obviously, we need a big response to that problem, something that will drive growth, drive jobs, increase wealth and prosperity and give people back a sense of real progress once more.

Secondly, governments rarely have those extraordinary moments when they can think beyond the immediate budget cycle or the immediate election cycle. And having come through a crisis, so hopefully we'll soon be to that point, we have an opportunity to examine some bigger, longer-term issues, and we should take advantage of that to be truly transformative and not just incremental. Thirdly, we really do need to build hope and confidence among Canadians. They need some excitement and some inspiration after what they've been through in this lockdown, and the process of recovery should not be just a continuation of the drudgery. There'll be lots of good little things to do,

but we also need some big uplifting things that can really give people back their sense of hope about the future. That's a part of nation building, I think, in our current context. Well, you know, big ideas cost big money. You understand all about budgets from your own background in cabinet. But here we have a government that is, you know, depending on whose estimates you use, could be looking at a deficit of $250 billion, unheard of in Canada's history. And a big project is obviously going to cost a lot of money as well.

How can you afford to be doing big projects at a time of enormous deficits and an increased debt? Well, we obviously need to find a way to prime the pump, and you have to be very careful about the decisions that you make, the priorities that you establish. You have to invest in things that will be productive, that will have a payback, that create wealth, that drive the economy forward, that create jobs, that uplift things. They should not be sort of just big expenditures on ordinary government operations. These are things that can really change the paradigm and have a payback. The government has the advantage because of the work that was done in the 1990s on the structure of Canada's debt. We do have the

advantage of having a debt that is mostly domestic, that is fairly long-term at low rates of interest, and that gives us a good capability to do the financing that's necessary. But when you do the financing, you need to make sure at the end of the day, what you've invested in is paying a return on that investment and more than compensate you for the cost going in. All right. Well, let's talk about what is, and to be fair, you've mentioned this before. You mentioned it in the last couple of years while in government, but everybody's taking a kind of fresh look at it now.

We all have our maps of Saskatchewan out, so guide us through this in, first of all, the most basic terms. What are you talking about as the big project? The last time there was a major crisis of this proportion in Saskatchewan was probably the Dirty 30s. With a decade of drought, a decade of depression, and creating a large water reservoir in the center of the prairie grain belt and then using that reservoir to provide irrigation farming over a broad cross-section of the central part of the prairies. It took 30 years to get that done.

Political argument, planning, and then the construction period. It took the political genius of Jimmy Gardner, Tommy Douglas, and John Dieffenbaker to pull it off. Those three couldn't agree on anything, but they finally did agree on this project. When Gardner Dam was finally built and opened in 1967 as a centennial project, it was the biggest earth-filled structure on the face of the earth. The lake is 225 kilometers long, 800 kilometers of shoreline. It provides fresh drinking water to 60% of Saskatchewan's population. It provides some drinking water to 60% of Saskatchewan's population. It provides some irrigation farming. There's a hydro power station that's been built on the property, on the site.

So the reservoir for the water is there, and it's a massive reservoir. More water evaporates from Deep and Baker Lake, as the reservoir is there. And it's a massive reservoir. And more water evaporates from deep in Baker Lake, as the reservoir is called. More water evaporates from that reservoir every year than we actually use. So there's tremendous potential. The vision back in the 1930s when this started is you'd build the reservoir and then you'd build canals or water conduits flowing off the reservoir to spread the water more broadly across the heartland of Saskatchewan. Those conduits were never built. And the construction of them would be as massive as the building of the project in the first place. So that's the idea. Build the water transportation system,

if you will, to move that water from Deepen Baker Lake, where it's held in the reservoir, to provide irrigation, farming, and wealth and prosperity, value-added growth, innovation, diversification across a broader span of the grain belt. It would cost something probably in the order of three to four billion dollars, but it has the potential to trigger economic activity of five or six times that magnitude, creating thousands of jobs and permanently transforming the productivity and the security of prairie agriculture. Well, you talk about prairie agriculture.

So are we talking beyond Saskatchewan? Does this impact Alberta and Manitoba as well? Well, Alberta's upstream, Saskatchewan's in the middle, and Manitoba as well? Well, Alberta's upstream, Saskatchewan's in the middle, and Manitoba's downstream. So this would be primarily focused on the vast portion of Saskatchewan and into Manitoba. All of those watersheds basically flow toward the east and ultimately into Lake Winnipeg.

So it would have very significant impact in two provinces. And in a sense, those two provinces would be catching up to Alberta because in the 1930s, irrigation farming took off in that province. In that stretch of territory from roughly Medicine Hat across the Lethbridge, irrigation farming has been an enormous success, where it has not been to that same extent in the other two provinces, and this would provide the opportunity for those other two provinces to gain some of that ground. You mentioned earlier that part of the trick of getting the initial development

done was the kind of bipartisan nature of it. You had a, you know, you obviously had a CCF-er in Tommy Douglas, a conservative in Diefenbaker, liberal in Gardner, who got together on this. You said they didn't agree on a lot of things other than this, but they did on this. Is there that same kind of cooperation of political spirit today on the expansion of that program? I hope there is. When I started talking about this as a serious project for the future two or three years ago, there wasn't a lot of traction.

But I must say over those two years, as the conversation has developed and gained some momentum, there are more and more people that are truly taking a real interest in this. Several universities, the University of Saskatchewan, the University of Regina, andan, the University of Regina, and others across the prairies are very interested. There's a crop development center, Canada Saskatchewan Crop Development Center, that is strongly in favor of this. The Agricultural Producers Association, the Irrigation Farmers Association, the Watersheds Association.

Ducks Unlimited, interestingly enough, from an environmental point of view and the positive impact this could have on habitat and wildlife. That organization is supportive as well. The stakeholder base is there now and it's very solid. And I think they're talking to all levels of government, municipal, provincial and federal. The provincial government in Saskatchewan has taken some steps in the last year to signal their interest. They designated a member of the legislature as their point person on water development issues. They set aside some initial money in their budget to begin analyzing the question.

Premier Pallister in Manitoba has always had a keen interest in water development projects. So I think it's potentially there. We've got to work hard at it. Something this big and complex is going to require a lot of careful consultation. Indigenous people are going to have to be thoroughly consulted. They have to be involved in this initiative from the very beginning. It could not take place without their full engagement and participation.

The environmental issues will have to be examined as well. But I think there is, coming out of the COVID-19 situation, dealing with the ongoing challenges of climate change, dealing with the hope and the aspiration for a broader, deeper, more diversified, more prosperous agricultural base. Food security, which we've seen in the context of COVID-19, is an important issue. I think things are coming together in a way that may make this a proposition that governments can't refuse. Well, some of those last points you just made, whether it was climate change or food security, turned this into not just a prairie issue, but a national issue. And big projects would need some

kind of national embrace to have occur with the kind of money you're talking about and you know potential for jobs created not just for those from Saskatchewan but obviously it would bring people into the province as well but as a last point as a final point on this talk to me more about the national implication of a project like this. Well, I think this is a truly nation-building project. And I noticed even before we were stuck with COVID-19, there was language like that in the mandate letters that the Prime Minister sent out to the members of his new cabinet, advising them to be on the lookout for truly nation-building projects, like perhaps the fixed link to

Newfoundland, like perhaps a fully electrified Trans-Canada Highway, and a massive water project of this nature on the prairies that would have a direct impact on at least two provinces, but one that would increase the country's food security, that would increase our potential not only to feed ourselves, but to even supply more export products around the world. And I guess the most telling point in terms of economic impact, tens of thousands of jobs that would ripple across the region and into other parts of the country,

and probably add several points not only to Saskatchewan's GDP, but also to Canada's GDP, helping to lift the country out of the malaise that we've been in. Ralph, it's been really good to talk to you. I really appreciate you giving us a sense of this project, because I'm sure it will garner interest not just in Saskatchewan, but elsewhere as well. It's been, as I say, great to talk to you. Thanks for doing this.

My pleasure. Thank you. Well, there you go. Ralph Goodale's big idea. Does that inspire you to come up with your big idea? Maybe you have more ideas on that link to Newfoundland idea. It's one of the others that Ralph mentioned. But whatever that idea is, now you get a sense now of the scope we're talking about. It's big.

It involves, you know, a lot of money, but a lot of potential for not only jobs, but for changing the country in a way that we want to see it change. And this may be the best opportunity that some of us will have in our lifetimes to put out there in terms of big ideas, good ideas. So let's try it. And don't be shy. You can write.

You know how to reach me, themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com, themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. Just quickly before we wrap this edition up on a totally separate subject, because we've discussed this a few times in the last week, this whole issue of reopening and the fears that some people have, mainly the health authorities, that it may be too soon and there are real risks.

It is worth noting that in the last 24 hours yet another country that seemed to be ahead of us on this COVID-19 situation that had been through the worst and had started to reopen. Yet another country has now said, whoa, hold on. We've got to go back. We've got new cases coming, and it looks like it may be spiking. Now, we saw it in South Korea over the weekend. We saw it in Wuhan, who are now in the midst of doing 11 million tests on their citizenry to find out whether a spike of six new cases after a month of no new cases is a signal of, you know, that it's coming back. So they're doing 11 million tests in the next nine days now to find out if they have a problem.

In the meantime, they've stopped on the reopening front. And then just today in Lebanon, which seemed to be virus-free, they'd done all the social distancing, They'd done all the social distancing. They'd done all the right things. Suddenly, there are new cases. So they've put a halt on all reopening for four days while they examine the situation and try to determine whether they have a problem.

This is the greatest risk on reopening. We understand why governments are anxious on the reopening front because of the economy, but we also understand it's a risk, and so do most governments. Not all, it appears, but most governments understand there is a risk and they are prepared to scale back and quickly

if there are signs of a reemergence of the virus. So we want to keep all of that in mind as we move forward. All right, just once again, if you have ideas or thoughts or comments or questions, especially on the big project idea, please send them along to the Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com, the Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com. And that is the bridge daily for this day. Thanks for listening.

I'm Peter Mansbridge and we'll be back in 24 hours. Thank you.