The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - The Bridge - Where Russia And China are Winning The Struggle For Influence

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

Russia may be losing the war in Ukraine, but are they, and China, winning the wider war for global influence?  War Child Canada's Dr. Samantha Nutt joins us to talk about just that with her on-the-ground experience.Plus we start with another climate change update that should interest anyone who travels by air.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. Russia may well be losing the war in Ukraine, but it's not losing the war for global influence. We'll tell you how, why, yet another new week right here on the bridge. Last week of April, we're heading towards May. May. Springtime. Please. We've got a really interesting program today with Dr. Samantha Nutt from War Child Canada. And Sam is a friend, worked with her, known her for quite some time.

And I really trust her instincts on things that are happening around the world, in many cases, because she's been there. She's seen it. She knows of what she talks. And today's topic is a really important one. But before we get there, just a couple of minutes on one of the things I've promised that we will keep in touch with over time. At least mention something to do with climate change every week. And today is that day for this week. You know, I was walking along. I'm still in Scotland.

I'd leave for Canada, head back to Canada at the end of this week. It's been an important trip for me. I've been doing a lot of work, working on my new book that's coming out with Mark Bulgich later on this year. But I was walking along the coastline the other day, the northeast coast of Scotland. We're right near a spot where a lot of the air traffic heading across the Atlantic to North America. You can see it up at, you know, 35,000, 40,000 feet.

And also the traffic coming this way from Canada, from the United States. And so you'll see the odd, you know, vapor trail in the sky. And whenever I see that, it gets me thinking, you know, air travel, climate change, you know, the amount of jet fuel that's used, where that's coming from, what is that doing to our planet? So I'm looking up at that and thinking myself, you know, what are you going to do, Peter, about this, about air travel?

I mean, I love air travel. You know, I've talked about airports and airliners, air travel, ever since this podcast started. And I used to be, I used to work in the airline business way, way back when I was 18, 19 years old, working for my little airline and former airline, doesn't exist anymore, Transair, along the prairies. Anyway, so I was remembering what it was like in those first days and weeks of the pandemic. You know, it seems so distant now, but every once in a while it's important to remember

what we went through, and to some degree are still going through. But what we went through in the very early days, we were all scared. We didn't know how this was going to turn out. We were waiting for word on vaccines. And everything kind of stopped. Businesses stopped. People were kind of locked down in their homes. And the airline business cratered.

And you'd look up in the sky and you wouldn't see any vapor trails on those odd moments when you were allowed to go outside and walk around the block. But one thing I noticed during that time, and I have no scientific reason to believe it was true, but it felt that way, is that when that spring of 2020, yeah, I guess it was 2020,

when it broke and the trees started blooming, the flowers started blooming, everything seemed to be greener and fresher. And the air felt cleaner. And I kind of wondered aloud, is this because, you know, there are no airplanes up there? Well, you know, I'm told that might have had some contribution to it or it just might have been, you know been the luck of the greens that year.

But I was thinking about that again the other day as I was walking along the coastline. What are we going to do? And then I bumped into this piece on the BBC the other day. And it's about greener flights. And it's about a group in the UK that's called Sustainable Aviation. Now, this is an alliance of a lot of different groups, and it's not just all environmental groups. It includes airlines, like British Airways, airports like Heathrow, you know, like the busiest, certainly one of the busiest airports in the world.

Like you do everything you can to try and avoid Heathrow because it can be a nightmare getting through it and switching terminals and everything. When I came over here, the traditional way is to go through Heathrow and then up to the Highlands and Inverness. But there are other ways of getting here that avoid Heathrow. You can go fly to, you know, and I don't think at any additional cost. You can fly to Amsterdam and then back to Inverness.

You can fly to Dublin and then over to Inverness. So there are different ways of getting here. But this group, Sustainable Aviation, includes, as I said, British Airways and Heathrow and manufacturers like Airbus. It says that sustainable aviation fuel, or what they call SAF, is going to be a key part of the industry's journey to net zero, accounting for at least three quarters of the fuel used in UK flights by 2050.

Now, that's still a long time away, a quarter of a century away. But that's the plan. The problem is it's several times more expensive to produce than the existing jet fuels. And guess who's going to pay that additional cost? That's right, us. But it reduces carbon emissions, they say, by 70%. They use sources like agricultural waste. And they say it can reduce carbon emissions by 70%.

So that's the way to head there, to head towards net zero. So will people pay? You know, people pay. People who want that ability to travel for work or for pleasure, they find a way. And the assumption on the part of people who are in this sustainable aviation group is that people will pay eventually, but it may take a while. And they're moving ahead, gangbusters.

There are five new sustainable fuel production plants planned for the United Kingdom, with the government investing in all five of them. They're a little worried that, you know, other countries in the world, namely in North America, are going to offer significant tax incentives. And that could lure these operations away from the UK. But that's not our problem at the moment. Our problem is, what are you going to do?

And it's interesting to see that there are some who are planning ways of dealing with this, although it's going to cost money. Okay. I want to get to our conversation with Sam Nutt, Dr. Samantha Nutt from World Child Canada. And, well, let's take a break now so I don't have to interrupt the conversation. Take a break.

Be right back. And welcome back. You're listening to The Bridge, the Monday episode right here on Sirius XM channel 167 Canada Talks or on your favorite podcast platform. However, you're joining us, welcome to the program. So I guess it was about a week or 10 days ago I got a note from Samantha Nutt and I'll just read you a sentence from what she said. I think we're witnessing a coalescing of broader geopolitical tensions with Russia and China taking a much more prominent role in Africa and the Middle East in response to Ukraine

and Western backlash more generally. The West has been focused on Ukraine, but there's a much bigger, stronger game being played by those actors, Russia and China, in other corners of the world that will, in the long run, be even more destructive. And those are being overlooked. Overlooked by whom? By us.

So we're going to try and right that wrong, at least in being aware of it, on today's program. And I noticed with interest we decided to do this, and we had our conversation just yesterday for today's program. And almost the moment we finished the conversation, and I pressed stop on the record button, I looked up at the different wire services that I follow, and there was a story right up at the top of the Washington Post, which is basically making the same argument.

Russia and China are eating our lunch in parts of the world that we're ignoring and talked about some of the same things that Sam and I are going to talk about now so listen up this is really interesting and it's important And it's going to give us a sense of the story direction on some of the big issues facing, you know, the planet. In terms of influence and who's got it and who's exerting it and where it's happening. So let's get started. Enough from me. Well, there is a little preamble in the conversation. I've got to learn to make those questions shorter. But let's get started.

The guest once again, Dr. Samantha Nutt, the founder, director, head of W War Child Canada. Here we go. I think watching all the different countries trying to get their diplomats and others out of Sudan these past couple of days has made people realize that there's more to what's going on in the world right now than just Ukraine. We've been focused on that for more than a year and for a lot of good reasons we've been focused on it for more than a year, and for a lot of good reasons we've been focused on it. But there are other things happening, and those things that are

happening often involve either Russia or China, when we thought they had their backs to the wall, especially because of Ukraine with the Russian situation. So while I want to talk about some of these things in particular, give me the general picture on that about how we've been sort of faked out by Russia and China, if you will, as we while we were singularly focused on what was happening in Ukraine and coming out of the pandemic and our own economic and other concerns, that Russia and China in particular have been playing a very long, very strategic game in other corners of the world, especially in Africa and the Middle East and parts of Asia as well, including in Afghanistan. And we have been blind to those realities. And now we are starting to see them play out in real terms. There is a very direct connection between what we are seeing right now

that is happening in Sudan and the war in Ukraine and the West in particular, our general disengagement from some of the struggles and tensions that have been taking place in other corners of the world over the past 10 years. Do you think the Russians in particular were aware of this, that they were actually planning this way? Make us think Ukraine, while they're obviously in Ukraine, but at the same time, they're doing other things, whether it's in Africa or the Middle East? Absolutely, absolutely. The one thing that you can be sure of is that parts of the world where they're not so beholden to the democratic electoral cycle. So when you're talking about China or Russia, for example, they play a very long game. They often think in terms of generations, because they

can be assured of that kind of ongoing strategic level of engagement and influence that to be frank, many democratic countries, because of the higher level of transparency and the requirements around that, because they could be called out, because we have a free press, all things that don't take place in many corners of the world, they can be, and they often are, much more strategic, much more long term when it comes to their thinking. When you look back, for example, at I mean, let's just take Sudan as one case in point. I mean, the Wagner Group, which is Russian mercenaries connected to Putin, they have been augmenting their activities for the last couple of years through gold mining concessions that have brought about more than 13, by some estimates, $13 billion worth of revenues. And this was a very strategic workaround to sanctions against Russia, being able to finance their Ukrainian war effort and get around all of these other players. But that didn't just happen out of convenience. It didn't just occur in the last 24 months. It's because over the past decade, they have been laying the foundation for that. The Russian, the jets that are being used by the Sudanese army right now to lay waste to parts of Khartoum, which is a city of 5 million people,

those are Russian jets. And in the same way, even when I was last in Darfur, in the West Darfur region, and that was many, quite a few years ago now, although we continue to, our teams continue to go back. We were in West Darfur in the internally displaced camps for people who had been displaced by the violence. And we're cut off by a bunch of ambulances with their sirens blaring that all had Chinese flags on them. And it said China ODA, official development assistance on the side, basically Chinese humanitarian aid.

And they pull up in front of us and they start offloading crates of automatic weapons. So this has been going on for a very, very long time. We tend to think here in very short-term ways, and we look at short-term fixes. But other players throughout the world, they don't look at these challenges in that way, and it works to their advantage, and it works to our detriment. Do you think that Russia and China are operating in concert on some of these issues? And I ask that because it was only a couple of weeks ago,

a month ago at the most, where Putin was in Beijing, and he was meeting with Xi. And the assumption on the West was, you know, Xi is going to try to convince him that it's time to get into peace talks, pull back in Ukraine. I suspect when I listen to you now that part of those conversations, if not most of those conversations, weren't even about Ukraine. They were about this other agenda of making inroads in other parts

of the world, especially in Africa, especially in the Middle East. I think there's that for sure. But I also believe that they are they have an ideological alignment that in a way trumps other concerns. So, for example, even if wars make strange bedfellows, for sure, that is universally true of any conflict I've ever been in for the last almost 30 years now. And my enemy's enemy very quickly becomes my friend, right? And so in this particular case, even if China's agenda isn't aligned with Russia's agenda, the fact that they allow Russia to do what it wants to do means that Russia will allow China to do what it wants to do. We know that this significant escalation, particularly in Africa, plundering of African resources, major concession deals around everything from coltan to gold to cobalt that we're using in most of our batteries and this kind of thing.

China, with their Belt and Road Initiative, for example, they have been making significant gains right across the continent by investing billions of dollars in African countries, giving those governments blank checks for their infrastructure development. Some of that money gets reallocated in other ways as well to prop up their militaries of various dictatorships. The fact that China will do that, Russia will do that, they're selling rogue regime, various rogue regimes, arms at an escalated pace as well coming out of Ukraine. I mean, this is where they're very much aligned. While they may be competing in some of those countries for resource contracts and preferential treatment and arms deals, that in a way is secondary. By collaborating, they're creating the space to assert their own agenda. And a lot of that agenda is tied to their military dominance, their trade

dominance, and their economic dominance. That is the reality. And it's working. I mean, let's be really clear. It's working. Bilateral trade between China and Africa, for example, just in going from 2020 to 2021, rose by 35%. And China has explicitly stated that they expect to surpass the EU's trade deals with Africa by 2030. So within the next seven years. And again, that's another example. They are playing a very long, very strategic game, and it's very effective. Are we just like turning a blind eye to this? I mean, surely the West sees those same kind of numbers that you're talking about. They must understand what's going on. And yet they're not doing anything or what they're doing is having no impact. Well, I would say that they're trying.

If you look at Biden's announcement and USAID is still the single largest contributor to humanitarian assistance in Africa. But it's still a fraction of the amount of money and effort that is going into that China is putting into this, that Russia is putting into this. And they're servicing tragically. And the impact is devastating, right? I mean, they are servicing the needs of so many of these totalitarian, dictatorial, and let's be really clear, brutal, brutal regimes. But they don't ask any questions. They don't impose these kind of human rights expectations or agendas. And we are seeing a realignment of many of those same countries who now take a much more favorable position of, for example, Russia and China than they currently do of the United States, of European countries, even countries like Canada, although Canada doesn't get a huge amount of consideration because we're a much smaller player on that global scale. But even if you look, for example, at the voting patterns within the UN on every effort that

has been made to impose sanctions on Russia or to call Russia out on their behavior. I mean, about 40 countries, which represent roughly 50% of the world's population, have either regularly abstained or voted against such motions involving Russia since the war in Ukraine began. So we're a little bit, I think, delusional is the wrong word. We're quite naive about the scale and measure of our impact and the way that the rest of the world will continue to see Western countries in particular as any kind of real moral authority. And on top of that, they see the economic influence that America in particular has historically had as being in decline. And then you look at the impact of Trump and the lack of credibility that the United States currently has on an international scale is also what is contributing to this sense that other countries need to look for more favorable alliances and other governments need to look for more favorable alliances. massive, massively influential states that will let them do whatever they want. And so they make for, unfortunately, very convenient partners in that. I don't want to sound too simplistic here,

but what is the long-term goal for Russia and China in doing this? Is it all about, you know, minerals, resources, or is it about like spreading their ideology and their influence, you know, to parts of the world that the West has kind of checked out on? I think it's about putting their thumb on the scale, right? That for the better part of 50 years, and in particular, coming out of the Cold War, and then looking at what's

been going on for the last 30 years, we have been in a period of Western dominance. And they look at their own economic security, their own military security, which is very much dependent on geographic positioning and partners, even if you look at Russia's involvement in Sudan. That is also because they wanted the naval base. They wanted their naval base, which was supposed to be completed this year in 2023, in Port Sudan, in the Red Sea, which is strategically very, very important for them. So it is a number of different things, but it is also for them,

it represents the decline of Western dominance and increased power, increased influence, without having to deal with the expectations and the requirements that many rightfully, many Western nations have around democratic reform, to be honest, the most, is that really when you start pulling on the threads of this sweater, you are looking at the unraveling of the entire post-World War human rights architecture, because that's what a dominant Russia and China means to the rest of the world. And for many countries, for far too many countries that certainly I have worked in and that War Child works in, that is a very convenient place to be. And we're seeing the impact of that. We're seeing, you know, 100 million refugees in the world right now, displaced people, the highest number since World War II, drastically underfunded. We talked about Ukraine for a second. I mean, the UN humanitarian appeal for Ukraine last year was almost 100% funded. For Yemen and most of the countries around the world that have millions of vulnerable civilians who are at risk of starving to death, it was in many

cases, certainly under 50%, in many cases under 25%. And that is only getting worse. And in that context, rogue actors who are stepping in and throwing money in the direction of those governments and propping them up militarily, it is very, very easy to do. And I think Sudan, frankly, is a bit of a canary in the coal mine because I have seen many other countries around the world in which those same patterns are playing out and we could be looking at a humanitarian crisis on a scale we've never seen, well, at least certainly not in the last 40 years. I want to drop into a couple of these places specifically now

with your guidance and your expertise and your understanding because you've been to so many of them. Actually, let's start with Yemen because you were just in Yemen earlier this year. One of the few people actually to get in and out of Yemen in the last, what, 10 years? It seems there's been quite the struggle going on there for some time. Take me onto the ground.

Tell me what's happening, what I would see, what would we see if we were there like you had been there? So I was in the northern Houthi-controlled areas. That was the second time I'd been there in the last couple of months. And we have programming there focusing on children and education and trying to help women as well and looking at issues around food security. But the reality is Yemen has been largely neglected for the last seven years. It is a war that has killed more than 300,000 people.

It is the poorest country in the Middle East. There are certainly about two-thirds of the population is entirely dependent on humanitarian assistance. Because of the Saudi-led, Saudi-backed government in the southern part of the country, which was, again, supported by Saudi allies, including the United States, they've had a very difficult time getting supplies, even basic, basic supplies,

like food and medicines, into the northern part of the country. So what you see is you see kids who are 12 years of age, who are so physically stunted that they look like they're six or seven years of age, who are experiencing a lag in their mental, their cognitive abilities as a result of that. I mean, this is lifelong, some of the challenges that these kids face. There is a level of vulnerability that exists with millions at risk of ongoing malnutrition and starvation that is very real. And yet, even right now, the humanitarian appeal for Yemen is at roughly 13% funded for 2023. And interestingly, you look at Yemen too, and now that there is a peace process that is taking place, that peace process is being led

by China between Iran and Saudi Arabia. So China is now suddenly taking a very pronounced diplomatic role in the conflict in Yemen, bringing it as close as we have seen in almost seven years to some kind of humanitarian, some kind of resolution that will at least allow for the passage of humanitarian supplies and a restoration of the government. But, you know, the challenges that are facing that country and women in Yemen in particular, it is going to take years and years and years of consistent investment to overcome some of those very real threats and realities. And I'll give you a very specific example.

So just in the last year, and in particular, because of the Iranian protests, or rather, the concerns that some of those same protests would start taking place in the Houthi areas, which are again, Iranian, often Iranian backed, they have had a massive crackdown on women and girls. So for example, they have imposed mahram, which means that you cannot travel to even work without being accompanied by a male family member, either your husband or your father or your brother, which means it's very difficult for a lot of women and girls to do what they need to do. They have imposed that you have to wear the full abaya, but the black abaya. Many of the women that I met with and spoke with, some of whom

work with us, are afraid that some of the Taliban edicts where women will be completely forbidden from working will also take place in Yemen. And then you have China negotiating a peace deal. And you can be quite certain that they're not going to demand concessions from either side of this conflict to ensure that the rights of women and girls are protected, because that is not their diplomatic style. Their diplomatic style is, is just, it's much more about, uh, it's much more utilitarian and it's certainly not tied to any kind of human rights concessions. How do you travel in a country like that at a time like this? I've always felt extremely lucky in the sense that I have a Canadian passport. We're doing it, we're there to do a job. 99.9% of our staff everywhere in the world are local. And that includes at the

most senior country director level, they're the ones running the program. My job is to support them in those efforts to help provide in some cases, training and capacity building to fundraise to do these things. And so while it's very, very, very difficult, sometimes heartbreaking, sometimes has been at times life-threatening, I always feel that that pales in comparison to the great risks that our teams face every single day. And so while I would say it's not always easy, it's very easy to keep in perspective just how fortunate I am and how fortunate we are to live in a country like Canada and why that is so important. I mean, so many people are desperate for those kinds of opportunities and spend most of their lifetime being denied them. I'm still, you know, the images are haunting, the ones you tell,

but I'm still kind of surprised that you're telling me that, you know, a Canadian passport can actually mean something in a situation like that. I mean, you're going through a checkpoint in northern Yemen, and there are all kinds of people with guns and not a smile I don't imagine on their face, and you're saying you hold up a Canadian passport, that means something? What it means is that people appreciate any kind of, I've found, and again, I've been going in and out of war zones. First time I went to a war zone was in Somalia during the famine, and I was 24 years old working for the UN. So, you know, more than a quarter century now, I'm dating myself. But people appreciate any kind of expression of solidarity.

And they as hard as it is to get into Yemen, they appreciate the investment and the humanitarian concern. And in the same sense that that's still an American, you know, an American passport comes with the colonial baggage that is the United States. Similarly, if it's a British passport or other parts of the world. But when you hold up a Canadian passport and you're going through some of those checkpoints, you are still, thankfully, graciously afforded a different level of consideration that people understand that we're not as threatening and that we're here to do a different level of consideration that people understand that we're not as threatening and that we're here to do a different kind of job, at least in my sector, the humanitarian sector. And that's, I don't know. I mean, it's a little trickier when you're talking about Yemen,

particularly because we had that, we still have that ongoing $15 billion armored car deal with Saudi Arabia. And there have been some allegations and reports of some of those vehicles being used in that conflict. But nevertheless, people still really appreciate the fact that you are invested enough to show up and to care and to try to do something as long as you're doing it in the right way. Let's go back to Africa for a second. I'll let you choose. You gave us a glimpse of what it's like on the ground in Sudan. There it was the last time you were there.

But you're also going, what, in the next month or two to Uganda, where the same kind of play is at stake here in terms of the influences of Russia and China in that part of Africa. Give me a sense of what's happening there. Uganda is the largest refugee hosting country in Africa, one of the largest in the world. They have 1.5 million people who are living there. And I will be back at the Congolese border. Even in December, they were receiving about 10,000 new arrivals every single month. And again, in terms of China's influence, China has

massive mining concessions in Congo. And that war has continued to escalate, although we rarely talk about it or hear about it here. And even within Uganda itself, there has been a very difficult, difficult way to navigate that government because they continue to unfortunately use legislation that does not uphold human rights or protect human rights in the way that we understand them and want them to be in other parts of the world. So it's a very tough time to be in, to be anywhere, frankly. But what we are seeing in Uganda is that there are so many millions of refugees who need support, who are extremely vulnerable. And again, we are not paying attention to Ukrainian refugees and the Ukrainian crisis. crisis, but does not have that capacity or same level of interest to care when it comes to crises in other parts of the world. And then that is when, understandably, those same populations start to

believe or accuse our countries and our governments of hypocrisy, of double standards, of not caring. And then that drives them again towards some of these other players. Even if you look at, for example, South Africa. South Africa has been quite vocal around believing that the future for the continent of Africa is in a closer alignment with, for example, Russia than other countries, Western countries, because it provides them with more of what they are looking for and less of, according to some of these same actors, less of the colonial baggage. This has been a fascinating conversation. I've got one more question for you and it um

kind of plays to that double standard uh phrase that you just brought up because one has to wonder when they look at this situation that's the way you have to wonder whether if if we're talking about white people in Uganda or white people in Sudan or white people in Yemen, and the list goes on, whether the reaction of the Western countries would be different. I mean, Ukraine, it's white people right and we're their whole hog lots of money lots of arms lots of support

of which we're not seeing in the countries well i i should be careful because you made a really important point the other day the united states is still the leading country in the world on aid programs, right? And we've both been into places where you see stacked at the airports stuff from USAID groups and government, U.S. government agencies. But still, you do wonder whether this story would be any different if these people were white. And they're pretty quick to point that out. Why Ukraine? Why not here? And we tend to couch, not we, in terms of, I think, Western countries tend to justify that level of disparity around strategic interests and alliances. And this is the battle between pro-democracy forces in Europe and rogue regime, you know, Putin. And that's how we portray those narratives on our side of the world. But how those are received in other corners is that the same countries that have colonized them and abused them and looted their resources

that are willing in the face of people starve because they're just not interested or also coming out of the pandemic. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that a lot of wealthy countries, including our own, were hoarding vaccines and poorer countries, particularly countries in Africa, had less than 5% or 10% vaccination coverage rates because we were hanging on to vaccinate our own populations. And these double standards don't go unnoticed. And we're seeing this right now in Sudan. The big news cycle for the last 48 hours has been around the evacuation of embassy staff at the U.S. embassy in Sudan. And we're being asked, Canada's being asked, well, what are we

going to do for the Canadians who are trapped in Sudan? And absent in that conversation is what are we going to do for the tens of millions of Sudanese who have no food, no water, no electricity right now, and who were already at risk of acute malnutrition and starvation even prior to this. Antonio Guterres, the UN Secretary General, said that Sudan is a devastating situation. He said it was a catastrophe on top of a catastrophe, effectively. And that is completely accurate. It was already in an intensely vulnerable place. And now it is at risk of absolute humanitarian catastrophe.

And yet here, we're predominantly focused on how are we going to get the expats out? And again, that, if we're wondering why so many countries throughout the world have given up hope and no longer have any expectation of relief or support for diplomatic ties with Western nations in particular, it shouldn't be a mystery to us. And if this trend continues, what is quite certain is that we will see more and more countries going the way of Sudan. And we're seeing that. I mean, we're seeing that in terms of war child on a global level. We're seeing the challenges of the Taliban who just do not seem to care what the there are countless examples of regimes that are just willing to thumb their nose at Western, what they perceive to be Western sanctimony in the face of Western indifference. Well, well, on that depressing note.

I'm sorry. Listen, it's tough and I'm glad you are as blunt as you are in the way you're describing it because we've all been guilty in a sense of kind of ignoring this as it's been going on and focusing our attention and I mean the collective we, you know, the media as well. Although there's some courageous media people who are trying to tell these stories on the ground, as you've seen. But there are few and far between.

Dr. Samantha Nutt, always informative to talk to you. It may be depressing, but it's, you know, we need to be, we need to fully understand what's happening and why it's happening. And you've helped us. You've given us a glimpse into the answers to those questions. So thanks very much. Thank you, Peter. And it doesn't have to be depressing. It's still, there are ways that we can channel that energy by really working to support strong local organizations, civil society organizations who are the next generation. And that's the thing. If we start to think in terms of generational impact through investments in kids in particular, then we can achieve different outcomes. We don't have to wait for governments to do that. So

I'm never a fan of succumbing to cynicism because I actually think that once we know what's going on, doing something about it is not as hard as we imagine. Thanks again. Thank you. Dr. Samantha Nutt, you know, pretty special person and works with a lot of very special people in different parts of the world. So we're lucky to have the opportunity to talk to her. And if you want to check out more about Sam's organization, War Child Canada, you can find it at warchild.ca.

That simple, warchild.ca. Lots of information. Also the ability to donate if you so feel. One of the proudest moments in my career was when I was Chancellor of Mount Allison University in Sackville, New Brunswick. I don't know how many years ago it was now, probably around 10 years ago. When at convocation, where you usually give out a couple of honorary degrees, I was able to preside over the awarding of an honorary doctorate to Samantha Nutt.

So much appreciated that moment in my life as well. All right, that's going to wrap it up for this day, for another opening day to another great week, we hope, on the bridge. Tomorrow, Brian Stewart will be by with his thoughts on Ukraine. Wednesday, it's Bruce Anderson, Smoke, Mirrors, and the Truth. Thursday, your turn and the Random Ranter. So if you have thoughts, letters on any subject, including what we discussed today,

drop me a line at themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. Friday, it's good talk, of course. Bruce will be away this Friday. So Rob Russo, my old friend, former boss, bureau chief at the CBC in Ottawa, bureau chief for CP in Ottawa, and was also a correspondent for CP in Washington and Quebec City.

The list goes on. Rob's a great guy. He's been on the program a number of times, filling in for Bruce, and he will do so again on this Friday. So thanks very much for listening. It's been a treat. Talk to you again in 24 hours.