The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - The Reporters - Six Days To Go

Episode Date: September 14, 2021

How do journalists deal with the challenges of the final days of a campaign.  Spin is heavy, polls are abundant, and momentum can distort things.  Althia is on the road this week catching a few days with each of the major candidates for Prime Minister.  Rob is in the comfort of his home in Ottawa watching and analyzing things the way only he can.  Plus, today's fun fact: does incumbency help or hurt individual candidates in an election?

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. It's Tuesday, six days to go until the election. It's the reporters. Tim Horton's Smile Cookie Week is back, starting September 13th. For one week, the iconic chocolate chunk cookies topped with a pink and blue smile will be available at Tim Hortons restaurants across Canada. 100% of the proceeds from each Smile Cookie will be donated to local charities and community groups in each restaurant's neighborhood. Celebrating its 25th anniversary, the Smile Cookie campaign has raised more than $60 million for charities, hospitals, and community programs across the country. Grab your Smile Cookie from September 13th to 19th

only at Tim Hortons. So I like to tease you with what the fun fact of the day is going to be. And it's an interesting one today. Not going to tease you with what the fun fact of the day is going to be. And it's an interesting one today. Not going to tell you yet. I won't tell you until the end. So you can't look it up on Google. You can't do any of that.

All right, here's the fun fact is going to be on this. The power of incumbency on a seat-by-seat basis? So in your writing, if there's an incumbent, what chance does she or he have to be re-elected? It's an interesting question, and the stats are pretty interesting. And it's kind of double-edged as well, because here's the other part of the story. It's not to do with its incumbency in a different way. The country has

a very interesting record in electing or not electing former premiers to a position in the House of Commons, to member of Parliament status, going from provincial to federal.

Now, over the history of our country, there have been some really powerful premiers who had big names on the national stage. But were they able to leap from premier to prime minister? That's the question. How many times has that happened? Don't look it up. And when was the last time? Don't look it up. Just guess. Jot it down.

Now, that's not the conversation for the reporters today. And you know our two reporters who have been with us through the campaign on Tuesdays with some really interesting insights on how your journalism works during a campaign. What it faces, how it deals with the different situations that are put before it. Some of them, you know, we may not think of very often, and perhaps we should, because a lot of what we end up reading or seeing

is based on the reporters and what they hear and see during a campaign. So who are our reporters again? Rob Russo, former Bureau Chief for Canadian Press in Ottawa, former Bureau Chief for the CBC in Ottawa, and a former Washington correspondent, as well as many other points along the road, for Canadian Press.

Rob's a friend and a great journalist, and one I've certainly always trusted and who will be involved again next week when the CBC gets around to doing its election night broadcast. Rob will be one of the key behind-the-scenes people for the CBC's coverage on election night. I've had a number of letters, by the way, of people asking me whether I'll be involved in the CBC's election night coverage. Actually, for the first time since 1972, I won't be. And that's okay.

I'm fine with that. Now, the other reporter who has been with us since the beginning of this campaign is Althea Raj and you may recall that I last week I told you she was just moments away from signing a new contract she'd been the bureau chief for Huffington Post in Canada as well as worked at various other networks and news organizations she's now the new national columnist for the Toronto Star and she hit the ground running right after the announcement was made last week. She's been tracking a number of the campaigns, a number of the candidates, and the leaders, of course.

So we found her out on the campaign trail for today's program. So let's get at it the reporters on the bridge's election edition right here we go all right let's get at it uh rob is in ot. Althea is, well, she's in Toronto somewhere, having been on the NDP plane for the last, I don't know, day or two, and is now going to switch over to the Conservative plane. She's going to try and get a taste of everybody this week in some different fashion. So let me actually start with Rob.

For journalists like Althea who are racing around the country with all of various deadlines and pressures that that involves what's the biggest challenge for journalists this week the final week the final days of a campaign what's the biggest challenge well there are all kinds of their physical challenges this is when people start to get run down. It's a difficult job physically. You're up long hours. You get very little sleep. You don't eat very well. You're often in close proximity with a whole bunch of people. And even in pre-COVID time, you risk catching all kinds of bugs. So there's that. There's the physical problems. Then there's the myopia problems.

And this is not going to be the case with Althea because she's jumped around from campaign to campaign. But you get close to the situation, you get close to a party, you might not know what's going on with the other ones all that well. There's great communication between you and your bosses back home. But I remember cases where, like in 2011, Michael Ignatieff had some pretty good crowds and he was getting them riled up with his rise up kind of exhortation against Stephen Harper. And there were people on the road who actually thought that the Liberals were doing very well, just based on what they saw in terms of the crowds and the little enthusiasm. And it was completely disconnected from the reality of what was happening, really across the country and in other parts of the voting region.

So it depends on how much time you spend out there. As a bureau chief, you wanted to rotate people through as much as possible in order to avoid that from happening. But it's that steel tube phenomenon that we were talking about in our first chat where you don't really get a sense of what's going on in the ground. Sometimes I'll see, I know you're racing from one place to another,

but what would you like to add to, to what Rob just said on the, on the challenges? Well, I'll say that I only heard half of what Rob said, because one of the challenges is having really good internet access. And I don't at the moment, even though I'm in downtown Toronto

and I'm tethering from my cell phone. But I think what I heard Rob say was that you kind of get into like the vortex of the one campaign that you're in. And sometimes it makes you more favorable to that campaign or sometimes it can make you less favorable to that campaign. But that wasn't what I because I'm going from campaign to campaign. You said that that would not affect me. Did I hear that correctly? Is is probably one of the greatest ones because you really are operating on a little sleep, like sometimes like three, four hours a day is like, oh, that's really lovely.

But it's mostly from like a coverage point that you're hardly talking to any real people. You are just talking to the other reporters and the people on the plane, and then you're going to an event, but you sometimes have so little time. Oh, we lost her there. She'll pop back on. As she said, she's tethered from her phone to her laptop, to the telephone, to what have you. I'll jump in here, Peter, and say that there are other challenges that weren't there when I was on the road, which is now a long time ago. But the demands on journalists now to be multi-platform, multimedia, weren't there before. And so the workload has gone up as the rest and recuperation time goes down.

You know, I started as a print reporter and bashing out stuff regularly for the wire service, trying to update reports. But, you know, on top of that now you're expected to file uh video you're expected to file audio often you're expected to do regular hits if you're a broadcast reporter you're expected to tweet uh so the the the workload has gone way way up what about the um are you there, Althea? Not yet. I think she's reconnecting here, so she'll join us again.

But what about the issue of predicting? There seems to be, I don't think there's any pressure on journalists to predict, but somehow they, and I, you know, I recall this from my own day you have this tendency just to kind of let prediction fall into your reporting um not in a you know not in a blatant overt way but it just tends to kind of slip in there every once in a while and especially so in the last week. Yeah, you know, it's just we so often get it wrong. And often the predictive nature or tendency that slips into our reporting comes as a result of polling. You know, a lot of us are slaves to polling.

And they get it wrong. They have gotten it wrong a lot over the last little while. And part of that is because we believe in national polls. And as we've said before, a national race in Canada isn't really a national race. It's really a regional race. Things are happening in three or four parts of the country. And that's it. I know that people don't like it, don't like to hear very often because there's 338 ridings, but really it's only about 50 to 80 ridings that are in play. That's where the race is happening. And so if we're dependent on national polling, we're going to get it wrong.

So, I mean, I always tell people all the time, when you're going on any kind of show, a local radio show, when you're doing hits for News Network, when we were at CBC, don't get sucked in to making a prediction. Don't do it. There's nothing in it for us. We're not columnists. Our opinions aren't really valuable that way.

And even if we were columnists, I think that we really risk looking dumb if we get it wrong, and a lot of times we get it wrong. Okay, I think Althea's back with us now. She's figured out some magic way to patch into this. If you are, are althea we're talking about

yeah that's okay we'll take it we'll take it we're talking a little bit about you know the dangers in the last week of of of trying to predict what the outcome is going to be especially from this cocoon that you're in on the bus or the plane or where have you, and dealing with polls, the constant parade of polls that come out, and we've seen three or four already this week, and it's only Tuesday. Give us your thoughts on those two areas. I think when the contest, it is now is so close there's no point in reporters trying to predict who's going to win frankly we have no idea and a lot of it will come down

to ground game so I think we should avoid it completely I think even as a columnist one should avoid it completely you really have no you don't know and the parties only tell you basically what they want you to think, which is that they can win just about everywhere they go. Sometimes they'll be honest and actually admit that they won't win in a particular riding. But, you know, that's usually when they have like no shot at all. And the polls lead coverage in some ways in terms of how seriously you treat some of the parties. Like, I think we've spoken about this before, but the NDP doesn't get the same level of scrutiny of their campaign platforms and costings than the Liberals or the Conservatives do, because we don't spend as much time going through it and the nitty-gritty of their policies. And frankly, even if there's a political party, like whoever's running second,

tends to not get the same level of scrutiny as the front runner. I think the polls also read the type of kind of strategic questions that people in the Ottawa bubble care about, but I don't know that real humans care about, about, you know, if your party gets the second, um, number, highest number of seeds, would you try to form a coalition with X other opposition party or, um, you know, what's your response to strategic voting and you know what would it mean for your political future those types of questions instead of policy questions and programs or values-based questions that voters are probably most

interested in you know one of the things i used to try and do when I was, when I was on the planes back in the seventies and eighties was that I would try to, you know, because you, you, you really do get closeted in this bubble and you don't really have any sense of what's really going on outside. Even when you go to rallies, cause they're all, you know, committed people organized to be there and cheer and do whatever. The believers. Believers. Yeah, exactly. But I would try and, they're all you know committed people organized to be there and cheer and do whatever the believers believers yeah exactly but i would try and um in the in that little time off that i'd have in a day

i would try to to walk the neighborhood of the hotel uh that i was in and and knock on a few doors and just try to talk to people now that that didn't happen often because it just simply is rarely time but you would find out very quickly that what they were talking about is not what the leaders or their people were talking about didn't matter which party um that there was just there there was a disconnect between what was happening on the planes what was happening in the houses and i assume that's still the case. I'm not sure for the most part how you get around it because things are tied so specifically to the clock

and there's so much travel involved in each day that the reporters on the planes don't have as much of an opportunity. Rob mentioned earlier the impact COVID has had on the way these campaigns unfold and the way reporters react to them on the road. Now, I appreciate you've only been on there for a couple of days, but you do have comparisons to go with. This isn't your first rodeo, as they say. And so what is the impact what what are you seeing on that and i say two things because i want to go back to the thing that you said about the knocking on doors i think one of the things that has drastically changed frankly

from the 70s and 80s peter is that you have the internet and 24-hour news and like i look at my broadcast colleagues and they have absolutely no time to file. Like the NDP has given us sometimes like 25 minutes to file. That's like 25 minutes to regurgitate all the tape that was just gotten from, that you've just received in a press conference, trying to craft your story and sending it to usually Toronto to get vetted. That is really not a lot of time. And there is no opportunity to go knocking on doors or to see anything other than like the hotel room where you're supposed to be filing. I think COVID, it's a really interesting question. You know, I joined the NDP team about this time in the last election in 2019. It was right after the English debate. Jagmeet Singh had had a really good debate performance in that campaign as well. And he was kind of running on a high. And if anything,

the NDP was, um, a little disappointed that they didn't have the funds to help support his newfound popularity with advise. But Jagmeet Singh, much like, um, Justin Trudeau is is one of these very, these types of people that gets their energy from the crowd. And in 2019, there were crowds everywhere. You know, there was music. As soon as the bus arrived in a writing campaign office, they would blare the NDP campaign music. And Jagmeet Singh would bounce, like literally bounce out of the bus and start dancing

with the crowd and you got a sense of momentum it's really hard during covid to gauge whether what you're seeing is just you know following the covid safety protocols and that's why there's nobody at the events or if it's that there is like a lack of interest and a lack of momentum. We had with the NDP team, the largest, I guess, so-called rally, like a group gathering in a park where there was a little more than 50 people. And that was one of their biggest events so far. And you can tell that Singh is just not, he doesn't have the same level of energy. So it feels like there is a lack of momentum on the campaign. And he says he doesn't feel that it's different, but you,

you can tell that it feels really different. Right. It's ironic because Trudeau in some ways is, is the opposite. He's getting momentum from crowds, but not ones he's organized. I mean, the protesting crowds. Rob, what's your take on this angle? It is strange, and it does, I think, have a material impact on the dynamics of a campaign and on the dynamics of a leader. I think the people around Justin Trudeau were saying after week one and week two that he's

suffering because he isn't drawing from that energy of a crowd, that he really does need it. And, you know, before COVID, they used to try to get him out on the road quite often in order to get that. But that tells us, that's kind of maybe what makes me want to pivot into this notion, pivot back to being on the road. You really do get a sense when you're a reporter on these campaigns of a winning campaign and a losing campaign. There is a bounce in the step of everybody on a winning campaign.

And that goes from the leader and the people around them to the people who are handling the bags. You know, I remember in 1993 when it was clear that Cadet Sien was going to, going to win and Kim Campbell was going to lose, and that was fairly early in that campaign, that there was a bolt of energy, a dynamic force that seemed to go through a plane. And there was a kind of rigor mortis that set into the conservative

campaign there. And I've noticed that on other campaigns I've been on since, that there is a palpable feeling of a winning campaign. Again, that's one of those things that I needed to kind of guard against when I was on the road, because it does, that influences your reporting as well. But it's there, it's palpable, and reporters are going to begin to sense that this week. They'll begin to feel it.

It's a dangerous thing to try and gauge, but it's there. Well, you know, it's certainly there. I still agree with that. Yeah, but I mean, it's true when things seem to be clear and you get an indication from some of the polls when they are clear. But right now we seem to be just looking at an extremely tight race. But I totally agree that when, you know, we used to describe it as a stench that rolls over the campaign that is not going to do well. It just feels like a dead plane. People are not energetic in any level,

and things are the opposite on the plane that looks like it's going to end up winning. But I don't know. Althea, you say you totally agree with that, but at the same time, this one doesn't look that way because it seems so close. Yeah, and I really think that it's going to depend on ground game, and they themselves don't really know. I mean, I will say in 2011 with Michael Ignatius,

I mean, they told him while in the in the last few days that he was also gonna lose um and it felt like we were like at a funeral for the past the last three days felt like a funeral um in fact at one press conference michael ignatis cried it was really quite bizarre um like i'm not weeping but like tears and you were like i don't know i don't understand what's going on here um in 2015 i remember i did the same thing again where i spent like basically 48 hours with each camp sometimes it's a little bit more than that just because of trying to figure out leaving one camp to get to another camp but Tom

we had an event and basically like four people showed up and you can tell that you know with the campaign that has momentum and the one that doesn't and in 2015 the liberals were literally dancing in their airplane as we went from Vancouver and flew back to Montreal for Election Day.

In 2019, they were a little bit more stressed, but you could also tell they were feeling pretty confident. I didn't get that sense on the Conservative plane. And that was a contest where the Tories won the most number of votes, just not the most number of seats. So I don't know that we'll be able to feel it in this campaign. But when the race is overwhelmingly going in one direction or another, that is, I believe that you can tell. I mean, they know. And so they're j mean they know and so they're jubilant and when

they're jubilant they can't hide it sometimes you can get an indication from a change in message um that something is going on in terms of the way they're perceiving their their chances like i i found it a bit striking yesterday when the conservatives uh you know they had a positive announcement to make, but they turned their news conference on that announcement 95% into an almost personal attack on Trudeau, which, you know, I looked at that saying... A personal attack, I think you can say it. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't a draft attack.

Yeah, it was a personal attack. It was literally personal. Exactly. So I wasn't sure what was going on there. Were they trying to take another, you know, a last-ditch shot at the Liberals because they're worried about their numbers? Or were they trying to take a shot that was mainly directed at the growing numbers of people who seem to be supporting the People's Party? They're not going to, you know, they're not going to win the election. They may not even win a seat. But they're taking votes away from somebody,

and that may well be the Conservatives. And so if the Conservatives are trying to get those votes back in the last minute, attacking Trudeau on a personal level may do it. Rob? Yeah, I think that to the extent that Mr. O'Toole's campaign has succeeded, it succeeded from the beginning in disarming and pulling the pins out of some of the grenades that were launched at Andrew Scheer the last time. And so he has moved closer to the center on a whole bunch of issues. You know, he's got a climate plan.

He's pro-choice. So all of these pins have been pulled out of grenades. Well, last night he started, he started a lot of those grenades. And that suggests to me that, uh, the move to the center has cost him some votes and he's got to go out and get them in order to put himself over the hump. But I don't know that we should read anything more than that into it right now. I, I, again, uh uh we're not at that phase clearly something has changed clearly he needs to to make a change in tactics but the the signs that i'm

talking about are the leader is becomes less um available uh more curt in his responses or her responses the the people that you go to for information about the campaign become less voluble. The phone calls back to headquarters aren't returned as quickly or aren't returned at all. Those are the signs usually of something that's going wrong and that the campaign is headed in a direction that it cannot turn around. And, you know, there are a couple of examples with Stephen Harper that I find remarkable.

In 2004, he knew he was going down and he essentially just stopped campaigning. We all recall that last weekend as the campaign where Mr. Harper just went home, right? I mean, he kind of folded it up. The 2015 example, I think, is remarkable as well, because it shows the maturation of Stephen Harper in that he knew six months before that campaign that he was very, very much unloved and unliked and that he had a tough, tough road to hoe. And every day during that campaign, and we all remember it was very long, it was over 70 days, he would ask, has it turned around? Has it turned around? Has it turned around? And the people around him would have to say, no, it hasn't. And yet, he matured enough that he knew his job was to hang on to as many seats as possible, to get as much representation in the House of Commons as possible for his

successors so that the Conservative Party that he formed would be viable. And he went out there and did this game show thing that was part of his campaign and did it with some aplomb. He's not exactly Mr. Chuckles, but as much enthusiasm as he could muster in order to try and maintain the facade of a campaign that was so viable you know i you and i are going to have to disagree about 2004 because i thought he and still think that he took that last week off because he thought he had it in the bag and that that was a terrible mistake that he you know that uh and some of his people felt that way too that you know you

when you've got an opportunity you don't let your foot off um the throat of the opposition as they say um all right last point for this conversation and althea i hope you're still with us and we haven't lost you off yeah i'm still here and and this i'd love your thoughts on this because i this is all this has been and it's not just an election campaigns has always been kind of an issue but when you read a newspaper story and quite often a column in a newspaper which you'll now be doing um it doesn't exactly match with the headline. And I'm trying to get at how, first of all, what's the process? And second, how frustrating can it be when you're the columnist, you're the writer, and you suddenly see your story being flagged in a way that you didn't intend it to? I mean, I felt that way about, you know, John Iverson is a friend of all of us.

He's a columnist for the National Post. And I felt, and he's very opinionated, as columnists are supposed to be. But I felt over the weekend that some of what he was writing was not reflected in the headline that was put on top of his story. But explain the process to me and how frustrating uh it can be um so i think it happens with all like whether you're writing a news report or a column i will say it depends you know i've worked with a lot of different outlets. It depends where you work. Some outlets would like you to suggest a headline. Some outlets don't ask you to suggest a headline. And so the editors will decide what they think the headline is. You'll often find a different headline in print, as you will

in a digital story. And sometimes in a digital story, you'll see different headlines. Online publications and people who run the digital news page often test headlines to see what makes people click on the headlines. So they do A-B testing. They'll have a different headline on Facebook, for example, than they might have on the actual news site. I don't have a problem with the different headlines. I think I would only complain if I feel that the headline inaccurately reflects the content of the story or obviously the headline is wrong. That's only happened to me a few times frankly usually I think people who do a certain job are better at their jobs than I am at doing their job and I trust them to you know write something that

is accurate but yet quickie and engaging and leads to more people reading your story except end of the day that's that's what we all want no matter where we where we stand um but it can get absolutely frustrating if you see something that um you feel doesn't reflect especially as a columnist i would say doesn't reflect your your point of view and mischaracterizing mischaracterizes the column that you've just written uh rob we'll give you the last word on this you've uh you been there, so give us your thought. Yeah, I often wrote headlines when I was at the Canadian Press. We don't know in John's case if it was an editor who went too far or something else.

I can tell you what the net result is. The net result is that readers are disappointed initially that they didn't get the story that they thought they were going to get because most readers read headlines they don't read the body of the story so initially they're disappointed and then secondly they feel manipulated uh and and that's when you're in danger of losing readers at newspapers uh as often is the case there there is supposed to be a separation between the editorial section of the newspaper and the reporting section of the newspaper. And sometimes they bleed over at the editorial ranks.

And that's also a danger. I firmly believe that people who own papers have the right to put their editorials, their opinions, publishers, they have the right to do that on the editorial page. That shouldn't bleed over onto the reporting page. We all know that discretion allows for choices to be made, but reporting should be factual. And so therein lies a danger as well. So I'd be interested in hearing from John Esther whether or not he thought this was an honest mistake. But I do know that the net impact is one that can cost us readers sometimes.

And to be fair, before we close out, I should say it's not just a print issue. It can be a television issue as well. I can remember more than a few nights on The National where the headlines would either promise something or worse, ask a question in the headline that's never answered in the body of the program. And that could be equally frustrating, I'm sure, to viewers in that case. So this isn't just a print issue. It's kind of a journalism issue that you either overpromise or you promise something that, in fact, you're not saying or doing. One of Russo's rules at CP was we don't ask questions in headlines. We answer.

So don't ask a question. Yeah. Well, that's another good difference between print and television. That's a very good question to put on social media because you want to drive engagement. You want people to comment and share and engage. Yeah. The world has changed. There's no question about that.

Listen, we're going to let you go, Althea, because got to you've got to pack and hit the bus and change planes and i'm already packed the effort that i am but i do need to get to the airport okay well listen it's been great to talk to you as always and uh we'll try and figure out what we're going to do next week next tuesday uh with the two of you because who knows where you'll be and uh and and and what time it'll be when we finally track you down but uh rob and althea thanks very much it was fun thank you very much thanks rob stay healthy stay healthy you got it that's uh that's the thing for especially for those reporters who are out there traveling the country covering this election. Okay, I promised a fun fact on incumbency,

and I'm going to deliver right after this. Starting September 13th, Tim Hortons Smile Cookie Week is back. From September 13th to 19th at Tim Hortons, 100% of the proceeds from all Smile Cookies purchased will be donated to local charities and community groups across Canada. In the last 25 years, you have helped us raise over $60 million. And in 2020 alone, Smile Cookie Week brought in $10.6 million while helping over 500 community organizations. You can participate by grabbing your own smile cookie at Tim Hortons restaurants across Canada from September 13th to 19th.

This is The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge. OK, you're back. You're listening to The Bridge. It's the reporters on the final week of the election campaign. And this segment, I've tried to do a kind of fun fact about election data throughout this campaign. And this is one of them. You're listening to The Bridge on SiriusXM Canada, channel 167, Canada Talks. Or you have downloaded the Bridge podcast. And whichever it is, we're happy you're with us,

and we appreciate you joining us. All right, incumbency. You know, unlike most jobs, becoming an MP doesn't require any experience in the field. Anyone can run. Anyone can win. Lots of people run and win without first serving on, say, even a city council or a school board. But once you win, you actually have a pretty good advantage.

In some cases, it's a huge advantage. In the last election, the last federal election, 289 incumbents ran for re-election. Of that 289 figure, only 47 lost. That's an 83% success rate. That's pretty impressive. On the other hand, the other question I asked at the beginning of today's show, if you're a premier, a former premier, with lots of political experience, there's no golden ticket to federal success.

Since 1867, only 40 former premiers have become members of Parliament. Only two. Only two. This was the question. Only two have become Prime Minister. Former premiers becoming Prime Ministers. Who were they? Well, of course, you remember Sir Charles Tupper. He was Premier in Nova Scotia from

1864 to 1867, and he became Prime Minister in 1896, but for only 69 days, the shortest term in history. Sir Charles Tupper from Nova Scotia well Sir John Thompson also Premier of Nova Scotia at one point only for a couple of months in 1882 but he was Prime Minister from 1892 to 1894 there you go how many of you knew either one of those questions?

Well, I'm pretty impressed by the smarts that are exhibited every week in the letters I get from the Bridge listeners, so it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of you got those without looking them up. Right? That's key okay tomorrow smoke mirrors and the truth with bruce anderson thursday your letters your comments your thoughts and questions on your turn and on friday good talk chantilly bearelle Hebert and Bruce Anderson. You don't want to miss this last few days before the campaign. It's a close one. It's going to be interesting.

It could come down to your vote. All right, so if you didn't vote in the advance polls, you've got options, including on Election Day. So keep all of that in mind. All right. That wraps her up for today. The Bridge. I'm Peter Mansbridge.

Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you again in 24 hours.