The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - The Rules of War -- Do They Matter Any More?

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Zelenskyy of Ukraine says Putin of Russia has told his military leaders to ignore the "rules of war". If that's true what does it mean and what could happen as a result? Dr. Janice Stein of the Munk School at the University of Toronto is here with her latest Monday analysis of our changing world, with today's focus on the Ukraine War. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You're just moments away from the latest episode of the bridge. Are there such things as the Rules of War? Dr. Janice Stein is with us. It's Monday, her regular conversation and commentary about that very fact. Coming right up. And hello there, yes, we'll take on that question about the rules of war. If they exist, did they even matter anymore?

That's coming up with Dr. Janice Stein. We'll do that in just a couple of times. minutes time. You know, I was thinking today when I was out for my walk with my puppy, I was thinking how my mother used to have certain sayings when I was growing up as a kid to try and help me remember things that she thought were important. And one of the ones I always remember is blue and green should never be seen without a color in between. In other words, if you wore a green shirt and blue pants, you better have a color in between them.

Because blue and green, she said, don't match. Now, I've always thought about that. And whenever I see somebody wearing blue and green, I go, oh, you know, you should have a color in between. But I think maybe that's like a saying that doesn't really stand up anymore. Because I see a lot of different blue and green. and quite frankly, I've worn a blue top. I was going to know, a green top with blue pants.

And nobody stops me and said, you can't do that. So I don't know. Maybe my mom was wrong about that. I'll tell you what she was right about, though, saying she gave me to try and understand the movement of clocks during the year. And we've all learned this one, right? Spring forward, fall back.

That gives you the hint That's what you're supposed to do with your clocks. But there seems to be a worldwide movement for those areas, and I know not every area, follows the clock movement thing. But for those areas that do, there seems to be a lot of discussion this year

more so than ever about really, really, should we be doing this? Why don't we just leave them the way they are so you don't have to run around the house at that point in the spring or that point in the fall where you're trying to do all the clocks trying to remember them the night before so when you wake up in the morning you're already adjusted why am i telling you all this it's the question of the week because we're getting close right as we talk today i'm on the other side of the pond again and uh here in the UK they get

They get a head start on the clock movement. It happens in the last Saturday night, Sunday morning of October. In Canada, it's the first Saturday night, Sunday morning in November. So a week difference. So as we're approaching another time change, more and more provinces are deciding not to change. Saskatchewan, Yukon, B.C., Alberta, Manitoba, and the Northwest Territories now. So do you think it's a good idea or a bad idea to stop moving our clocks back and forth?

There are legitimate reasons to do this, but are they enough of reason to make us go through this every year? So think about that. The movement of our clocks twice a year. Springing forward, falling back, should we be doing it or should we not? that is our question of the week and the normal rules apply 75 words maximum to make your argument and most of you these days make it in a lot less time than that so I'm I'm happy whenever I see that have it in by 3 p.m. Eastern time on Wednesday of this week. 3 p.m. Eastern time on Wednesday of this week.

After 3 o'clock, doesn't count. More than 75 words? Doesn't count. Forget your name? It doesn't count. Forget the location you're writing from. Doesn't count. All right?

So there you have it. Good thing or a bad thing? The movement of clocks. It's not a simple question and answer. Think about it. Look forward to seeing what, and hearing and reading, what your answers to that question is.

All right. Monday, Dr. Janice Stein, Monk School, University of Toronto. She's with us every Monday. And my gosh, you line up to listen. The numbers for Dr. Stein are amazing. They rival good talk on Fridays. Sometimes they surpass good talk on Fridays.

So obviously, you'd like to be engaged in the conversation. Well, here's a really interesting one that's timely. I think you'll probably be getting engaged on this one too. So here we go, Dr. Janice Stein for this week. Janice, I want to talk about Ukraine, the war. um today because i you know i read a number of things over the last few days that kind of you know strike me as well different than the normal discussion we have um the first one is is something that zolenski said about putin he said that his his knowledge is

that putin has talked to his military leaders and told them ignore the rules of war. Now, you know, I thought he'd long ago ignored the rules of war. I mean, he's being charged with treason, you know, but the basic rules are stuff like, you know, you don't bomb hospitals, you don't bomb schools, you don't bomb residential areas, all of which he's done. In fact, you could probably argue that both sides have done some of that.

So what do you make of this? Is this just the normal kind of tough talk from leaders who are trying to rally their troops and their people? Or is there more to it? I think there is more to it this time, Peter. And your eerie parallels to what's going on with Iran in the same way. So the Russian economy is contracting, right? To put him monthly. he's waiting for the you know the parliamentary elections to be over they just were

but there's a lot of talk that he's going to have to resort to mobilization again because he doesn't have enough men men most of the mobilization in the past was from the peripheral areas in Russia you know the far east and in moscow and st. Petersburg I just spoke to somebody who came back. They said, you don't really feel the war, except for the price of gas and the long lineups for gas because Russia's energy infrastructure is damaged. But he's running out of economic running room. And I think what he's doing, and we're seeing this in the intensity

of the attacks on Ukraine's civilian infrastructure. This is unrelenting if you look at the pace. And that's why I just look at the numbers of attacks in a 48-hour period in comparison to what they were a year ago. They're much higher. He, I think, thinks he can break Ukraine this time. And why does he think this? Okay. Why? Russia has doubled its capacity to produce ballistic missiles.

So that's a big one. Why does that matter so much? Because there are no interceptors. There's a global shortage of interceptors since the Iran War. And there's just no patriots, which is the only thing so far that can really intercept a ballistic missile. Ukraine has tested its own small ballistic missile for the first time. but the months away, Peter, from an effective interceptor. So if you don't have that, I think Putin thinks their energy grid is a sitting target.

The winter's coming. He wants to take out electricity stations, power grid, all kinds of energy, and more. and he's hoping to deliver what he thinks will be a crushing blow on Ukraine since he can't win at the front. He simply cannot win on the ground. This is his big go-for-it attempt to break Ukrainian morale. If he attacked the energy grid, that's in the... rules of war, is it done? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. You cannot. So these are all war, they're all war crimes. There's no question. If you deliberately attract the energy grid of another country

and that energy grid is not connected to any military use, direct immediate military use, not generally, but direct immediate military use. And you inflict harm, on civilians who depend on that energy grid. That is a war crime. There's no question. And it's a war crime to whom? Is somebody? Somebody has to file this with the international criminal court.

That's exactly right. That's exactly. And does the country that's being accused have to be assigned on to the international criminal court? Well, that is a big dispute. And why does that really matter? Because, of course, who hasn't signed on to the ICC, the International Criminal Court? Let me just talk about three. Israel has not signed on, okay?

The United States has not signed on. And that's probably the most influential of the non-signers here. And in fact, under Trump, the United States has sanctioned the International Court for their pursuit indirectly of American officials that are part of other investigations, and they say that is a violation of U.S. sovereignty, and they're suing the ICC, and they're sanctioning ICC judges and officials.

That's the first time that's the first time that any country has sanctioned the ICC, and the United States is not any country. in terms of the impact that it has. And Russia hasn't signed on to the ICC. So the argument is by countries that have not signed on, we're not bound by it because we've never signed on to it. It's a treaty. And we were in Canada under Lloyd Axworthy.

When Lloyd Axe were the support minister of this country at the end of the 90s, we were big, big promoters of the International Criminal Court. and one of the early signers to a really strong defenders of it until this day. But if you don't sign it, it's hard to argue that you're going to be bound by it. Well, if you're not bound by it, are there any rules of war for you? Or do you have to go back to, like, the Geneva Convention of... You do, you do. And you see, that's the other root in, right?

the ICC is a criminal court which charges individuals. So Vladimir Putin has been indicted by the International Criminal Court for a war crime and a crime against humanity. And what was that one early on? It was the deportation of Ukrainian children from occupied Ukrainian territories. And these children have been sent to. with Russian families. And so that's partly why Vladimir Putin doesn't travel much

because in any country that has signed the ICC treaty, we, for instance, Canada could arrest anybody that has been indicted by the ICC. Netanyahu has been indicted by the ICC. And so Prime Minister Carney said yes, if in fact Netanyahu visited Canada, he would in fact arrest. He's not alone in saying that. Many of the European countries have said that as well. Mamdani said it in New York, as you remember,

and then was forced to withdraw. So that's against individuals. But there's the Haig, which is the International Court of Justice. That doesn't indict criminal persons, individuals. It indicts countries. And so an action against Russia could be taken for violation of the laws of war. And that's what I, again, think back recently. A number of countries initiated legal action against Israel collectively for war, crimes, and genocide.

That case is still pending, and the allegations are not proven. But that's what people would have to do with Russia. They would have to. other countries, other governments would have to do that, not individuals. Has there been any accusation of crimes against humanity against Ukraine? No. So, and again, you have to look at every single attack. And most, the overwhelming majority of Ukraine attack,

are specifically against oil and energy installations, which Ukraine maintains with some justification that it is Russian exports of oil that are keeping the war going against Ukraine. Nobody has challenged that argument yet, and there have been very, very few civilian casualties as a result of a Ukrainian attacks. You know, the big one that most people, remember was against the Russian strategic bomber fleet in Central Asia, where Russia's, where Ukraine smuggled drones. But it is able now, and Ukraine does it with regularity, with its drones. It can attack energy installations, usually oil right outside Moscow in the outskirts of Moscow. So all of a sudden, and that's the change, I think, Peter, in the

And that's what's building the pressure on Putin. All of a sudden, if you live in Moscow or St. Petersburg, and this war was going by you, he was out there. But you didn't really know any families whose kids were fighting. And you really, you know, not dissimilar to what in the later days of the draft in the United States when the United States was a war in being. And the draftees, we know, came largely. from black communities and poorer communities in the United States.

And the more affluent just bought their way out of the draft with college exemptions and all the other things that they were able to use. That's Moscow and St. Petersburg. But now there's black clouds, you know, from strikes right outside Moscow. And the war's no longer far away from them. the war is right there. They're seeing it. They're smelling it. There's long lines at the gas station.

And that's why I think Putin is gearing up for probably the heaviest. And there's no question these will be war crimes. For the heaviest assault against civilians. You saw the attack against the Kiev Academy of Science. Now, you can argue some drones go straight. They do. They do. They're not intentional.

And for anything to be a crime, you have to prove intention that it was deliberate, which makes it complicated to prove, frankly. And you have to be able to trace the order in directions to soldiers. Do this. And those are really, really hard to find. And that's why conviction is much harder than the general public thinks. Peter, it's hard. But you see in the cadence of the Russian attacks,

there are two big changes in the way Russia is attacking now. One is it's targeting a far broader number of targets. And the second thing they're doing is they're not only attacking at night. And why does this matter? If you attack at night, people go into the shelters. They know what's coming. They do their best to accommodate. You sleep on a sleeping bag or you bring your pillow on your earphones

and you get some sleep not a lot, but you get some. Now the attacks are unpredictable in the 24-hour cycle. They're during the days as well as at night. And, you know, countries that have had their civilian populations under Golda Blitz, like London, the biggest thing is loss of sleep because that is devastating if it continues over time for people disrupted sleep. It is.

There's no doubt about that. But what Londoners and other Englanders proved during the blitz. And as the Germans actually, German civilians proved during the incredible bombing that took place against them, 43, 44, 45. it doesn't break that spirit, doesn't break the morale. I don't think this is, I think he will fail, Peter. I think he will fail.

I think there's so many examples of how strategic bombing fails. It unifies the population behind the leaders, right? There's a sense of shared solidarity, shared hardship. I think he will fail. I think he will have helped, but I still think it's going to be brutal. Oh, I'm sure it's going to be brutal. I mean, we don't know what's happened in Iran when they face the brunt of U.S. bombing, especially with the population that was not happy with their leadership

and was revolting in the streets before the Americans started bombing. We don't know what's happened since then in terms of that where the public's, the Iranian public, support lies. So, you know, it is something to be careful of. Let me just clarify one thing, because as you said... You know, we do know a little bit, Peter, just on that one. So after the revolts like you were talking about in the streets

were the end of January. Right. The Iranians ended it with a net, you know, brutal crackdown. And thousands of Iranians were killed. We don't have accurate, but thousands of the most brutal ourselves. The war started, and there was sullen anger by the Iranian population. They weren't going to go out into the streets again, but there was sullen fury. What happens once the American-Israeli bombing attack starts?

People rally around the flag. Okay, because those are foreigners doing this, too? And that lasted until the ceasefire. What happens is the ceasefire? Economic conditions have gotten terrible, really terrible. And so it's not around. And so I've been saying from us,

and now finally we're beginning to see some acknowledgement of that by the Iranian president. And there is anger now at the government again, but it's also directed against the foreigners. Let me clarify one thing. You made it clear that what Putin is planning against the energy grid, the energy sector in Ukraine is a war crime. So if Ukraine is attacking Russian oil fields, why isn't that a war crime? Yeah.

You know, it's really interesting. You're right. There's kind of been, and this hasn't been tested in court, as we say, right? There's kind of been a different treatment of oil fields going back to when the, you know, to when the Iraqi set, Kuwaiti oil fields. That's always been seen somehow as a strategic asset in warfare versus the electricity grid, which is seen as much more closely linked to civilian population and civilian life. And there's no law on this because it's never been tested so we don't know. But that's kind of been the rule of thumb interpretation.

What Putin's been doing for the last two weeks, going after the end. electricity writ inside Ukraine. Well, if it ever got to court, there'd be some interesting legal battles. There will be, for sure, will be. And look, Peter, while he's doing this just to distract you for a minute, or try to distract you for a minute, while this is going on, there are negotiations going on between the Trump administration and the Russians. behind Ukraine's back about offering sweeteners to Putin.

Yeah, this is an incredible story. You know, it really is quite something. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you, you, you explain it. This deals with our friends, Mr. Witkoff, Mr. Kushner, on dealing directly with Putin and Putin saying, why don't you invest in this and maybe we can do something on the I just find it astonishing, right?

And it's just a leak. But here's the outlines of the story. Trump finally stiffen sanctions against Russia. And one of the big targets was Luke oil, their big global oil company. That's what I say, oil is somehow in a separate category. It's always oil. Always oil. Always oil.

Always oil. And as a result, they have to sell. it off. And it's a privately owned company in Russia, but there is no such thing, right? It always goes to Putin. And to me, we're approaching a similar kind of thing in the United States, which is the most astonishing thing. Foreign buyers who have some American investors want to buy, but they can't get U.S.

approval to do it. So who steps in? Two Qatari brothers, and we know about the relationship between Qatar and the Trump family, these are two Qatari brothers who are partners of Jared Kushner, are the primary owners along with, and this should rankle all Canadians as far as I'm concerned, the co-owner of the Los Angeles Dodgers inside the United States, who is a significant donor to the Trump campaign. And they put together an offer.

And both of those are investors in the Trump family's world liberty crypto business. And they put together, I mean, it's difficult when you talk about this because it's so astonishing. They put together a deal to buy the assets. And here's the rationale for doing this, okay? And the U.S. government is going to have to approve it, which really means Trump. And the regulatory agency that would normally approve it issued the statement last week. And when I read it, I thought, weird.

Well, we're not, it's not our job to approve it. The approval will come from the White House. And we follow direction from the White House. that's a new take on what regulatory agencies do. And what's the explanation? Well, there's a diesel fuel shortage in the world right now, which there is as a result of what's going on between Ahudis and Saudi Arabia. There's a diesel fuel shortage. We're going to get control of these assets, and Luccoil has significant diesel fuel capacity.

That will bring down the price of diesel. oil fuel. In the process, in Rich, this whole consolation of people who are around the Trump family, both in the Middle East and elsewhere, and relieve the financial pressure to some degree on Putin as an encouragement to him to come to the table. Well, if you believe that, Peter, I'll sell you a bridge. Right, exactly. Have we ever seen the, the, this level of, you know, like insider trading, right out corruption going on at these kind of levels, in any democratic government anywhere? No, no, no.

It's unprecedented, frankly. It's unprecedented. We've seen nothing like this. I can't, you know, I mean, nothing like this in Western Europe. Any one of these stories would be a scandal. any one of them. And they, you know, they've gone unprosecuted, uninvestigated, really for two reasons.

One is the hold, the fear that Donald Trump, the hold on the Republican Party that Donald Trump had, and I'm deliberately using the past tense, and the fear that if you investigated, if you spoke up, if you were in the Senate or the House, you spoke up, he would take revenge by supporting a different primary candidate against you. He was able to do that until recently. Still has some of that capacity, but I think much less.

So the fear factor, and secondly, they've gutted the agencies in many cases. That would do the investigations. So if I'm not, you know, I think this is going to be a tough road back, even if the leadership changes at the top, how do you rebuild these agencies after all of this, Peter? Yeah, I mean, it's one thing to crater them, which he's done. Yeah. It's quite another to rebuild them. You know, that is going to take a long time.

It's just an unbelievable mess. And meanwhile, in the background to all of this with Ukraine and this war, is this sense that there's a more. more than a sense. It's the fact that Ukraine has supplied much of the world with grain. And they're not able to do that now. And we're on the edge of a world food crisis, if not past the edge, where countries that depend on what's coming out of Ukraine, basically to survive. And we're not just talking about countries that are desperate for food aid. We're talking about regular countries that need the world food supply to continue on in a level that it has in the past or better.

It's not going to do that now. It can't do that now. No. So look, I think this is a really huge story coming at us. And let's make it just a little worse, Peter, there's a fertilizer short because of the Gulf, right? when the LNG, when the capacity of the Emirates and was damaged in the early days, LNG creates, you know, off products, buy products that are crucial to fertilizer. Put those two together.

You have reduced supply and higher prices for the fertilizers that are on the market. That's why Canada has a strategic supply. of potash, which is a fundamental to fertilize her. It is an incredibly strategic asset right now. In one of Trump's nastier comments that he's made in the last week, he did say, well, we're getting all the potash we want, we're getting all the energy we want, so we're good. So even he knows that that's a strategic asset.

But you put those two together, it's not only the supply for this year, fertilizer is crucial in the fall because that's when you plant the crops and will be harvested next spring. So, you know, food supply and food prices, there's, you know, there's countries that are at the edge of catastrophe because they are poor, to be blunt. then there's the middle-income countries where if fertilizer prices go up and food prices go up, regimes fall. That's what pushes people out of the safety of their houses and into the streets is when they can't afford to buy food anymore. This is historic in Egypt. That's what, you know, led to the fall Mubarak, frankly.

It happens again and again, and that's a big, big story. But it's also a story for Ukraine because that's how Ukraine was earning hard currency. Now it's selling drones all over the world to everybody. I can't eat a drone. And you can't eat a drone. Okay. We're going to have to take a break. You mentioned something a couple of minutes ago that I want to bring up and talk about it in our second block.

and we'll do that right after this. And welcome back. You're listening to the Monday episode of The Bridge. That means Dr. Janice Stein from the Mug School, the University of Toronto. You're listening on Series XM, Channel 160, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. Glad to have you with us.

Janice, you mentioned the Hooties and Saudi Arabia. Now, this is a conflict. It's a war that didn't start last week or last month or last year. It's been going on for a long time. But it is having an impact now, more on the global situation, than it ever has had. Give us what we need to know about the Houthis and Saudi Arabia. Yeah, this is a kind of what are we missing story, Peter, that you and I talk about every now and then. You're right.

This war started in the 1990s, and it is a kind of, it's a Shia movie. The hoodies are Shias. And they control, they lived in the north. They're tribal like Yemen is, most of it is organized. That's not a, you know, that's not an adjective. It's actually an own. They live in tribes. That's why we say tribal.

And they openly revolted against the central government in Yemen, partly of a religion, but partly because they, considered the then president of Yemen corrupt. And that rebellion got going. And it was low level, but it was ongoing for 15, for longer, for 20 years. And actually, it finally blows up in 2015 when the Saudis and the Emirates together. and that's how Saudi Arabia becomes involved, became increasingly worried

because Yemen is on the Saudi border. And because of Fouthis are Shias, they worried they would have an Iran-friendly regime on their southern border. And so they intervene. That probably caused the worst humanitarian disaster, short of Sudan, far worse than Gaza

in terms of the number of people killed, thousands and thousands of people killed, hundreds of thousands displaced. Saudis and the Emirati split, actually, over this, and that's the origin of the Saudi Emirati tension, which we see playing itself out right now in the Gulf. That's where that starts. and the United States moved to mediate this, and finally, in 2022, there's a truce between Saudi Arabia and the Houthis.

Well, 2020-3 comes to Hamas attack three years ago. And the Houthis begin to target Israeli shipping through the Red Sea, but not the Saudis. And as long as it wasn't the Saudis, the Saudis stayed out. And the Houthis, as we know, were determined. The United States bombed. Didn't succeed really in stopping those attacks. And the attacks only stopped when the ceasefire went into effect in Gaza.

This summer, the Saudis bomb. In an effort to prevent, Iran had sent a plane, an aircraft, to Sana the capital of the Houthi part of Yemen. They sent a plane to bring a group of Houthi leaders to Iran. Saudi saw that or got good intelligence and bombed in an effort because I think they were probably right that this was an effort to mobilize the Houthis. in the war. And from then in these last two months, frankly, all hell is broken loose

between the Houthis and the Saudis. And this is, it is indirectly connected to the Iran War, but it's not part of it. The Houthis have attacked a Ramco with missiles, which is the huge Saudi oil company, probably the biggest in the world. So if we're thinking about the global oil map,

an attack on a Ramco is a serious event. But to make things worse, the Houthis fired missiles at Mecca. Well, that's the killer, right? That is the step that pushes the Saudis over the line. Mecca is, of course, the holy city. The Saudis are the guardians of Mecca. they have responsibility to the, in their view, the whole Sunni Muslim world,

and in their view, the whole Muslim world. And when those missiles were fired, in the last three or four days, reports are coming out of Saudi Arabia. Two important things are happening. And that's why this war matters. And these two wars are going to get intermingled. When the Saudis start preparing for an all-out assault against the Uttis, They're going to escalate the level of strategic attack that was going on before.

And secondly, under the new Mecca agreement, which is Pakistan, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia, in a defensive alliance. When these attacks happened on Aramco and on Mecca, Saudi Arabia picked up the phone, the ground prince, and called his good friend Donald Trump. Trump and said, we need help. And Donald Trump said, hang on. He said, yes, but hang on. And he consulted. And 36 hours later, he called back and said, sorry, we can't do anything about it right now.

So much for the U.S. security guarantee that the Crown Prince thought he had from Saudi Arabia. he's now invoking a collective security alliance. The Mecca agreement is structured like NATO, but it's a pale shadow of NATO, but that's the structure. If one of us is attacked, the others will help. Saudi Arabia is now calling Pakistan and Turkey on that one. And I think they have offered to provide support to the Saudis,

as they escalate now against Yemen. So these two regional wars are going to make each other worse. That's the bottom line, people. Well, the bottom line to me, accepting the fact that you're saying they're not directly related, the Houdis, Saudi Arabia, and the Iran situation, they are kind of connected right now. They're connected. And, you know, just as Trump and his pals,

Texas and Rubio totally miscalculated on the straight of Hormuz. They miscalculated on this too. Yeah. And they've just brought themselves never ending grief on that front. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a good chance, Peter, that Pakistan, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia are miscalculating, too. Because here we are back to the issue.

You bomb from what you started. If you bomb from the air, is that going to break? the back of the hooties, I don't think so. No, there's no evidence that it has over, as you said, quite a few years now. Yeah. So, okay, we're done on time. And all we've done is exposed more problems. But you've done it in such a way that we're better informed as a result.

So thanks for this. Janice, and we'll talk again in seven days. See you in a week. There you go, Dr. Janice Stein for this week, her regular Monday conversation with me about, well, about the changing nature of our world. And there's lots in there once again this week. So I hope you feel informed by it all.

It may not feel better by it all, but I hope you feel informed. By the way, I spoke myself at the beginning of that conversation. I talked about Putin and being charged with treason. No, the crime is a crime against humanity for his conduct in this war. That's the charge before the International Criminal Court. I'm sure there are some people in Russia who would like to charge him with treason. And I'll how far they'll get with that before they'll get with that before they're.

see a guy with an umbrella. Okay, that'll do it for the Janice Stein conversation for this week. Tomorrow, it's reporter's notebook. Althea Raj and Rob Russo will be by, and there'll be lots to talk about, obviously. There's the go-back election later today. We should know by morning what happened. It's going to be tight in terms of percentages.

But the indications have suggested something, as you've heard over the last week. But let's see what happens. The people decide elections and the people are voting now. We'll see what happens later today. Okay, that's it for this day. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Peter Mansbridge. We'll be back again in less than 24 hours.

We'll talk then. Bye for now.