The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - The Wall That Is Carey Price

Episode Date: June 1, 2021

Some thoughts about the greatest goalie in the world.  Plus the controversial pandemic issue of vaccine passports.  Should we or shouldn't we?  One of the country's leading privacy experts weighs in.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. Today, two words. Carry price. Are you still trying to find ways to get into the world of crypto? Well, look no further. BitBuy is Canada's number one platform for buying and selling Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. BitBuy has launched a brand new app and website with a new look, lower fees, and new coins. Bitbuy is your one-stop shop to get involved and super easy to use for beginners.

Visit bitbuy.ca or download the Bitbuy app. Enter referral code PODCAST20 to get $20 free when you make your first deposit. And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. Yes, welcome to the bridge for yet another day. And a day where some of us Leaf fans are kind of holding our head low, trying not to think of hockey and move on to something else. We've got something important to talk about today. We're going to talk about the whole issue of vaccine passports. But before I get to that, I really want to say a couple of words about a remarkable young man by the name of Kerry Price. In my view, the best goaltender in the world. And

nothing about the last two weeks has changed that view, as we saw again last night. I can remember when, you know, the radishmer and I were talking about the Stanley Cup a few weeks ago. He's a big Habs fan. I'm a Leafs fan. And he asked me how I was feeling before that series started. I said, the only thing I'm concerned about is Carey Price. He'd been out for the last month of the season with a concussion And it's after effects But he was due to be back And Carey Price is Carey Price Some people felt he was, you know, getting a little past it

I never thought that I always knew this guy was amazing And if there was going to be a problem for the Leafs Among its many problems that it tends to have at this time of year, the biggest one was going to be Carey Price, the Montreal goaltender. And sure enough, that's exactly what happened. And I met Carey Price for the first time, I think it was 2014,

right after the passing of Jean Beliveau. I was in Montreal. I met Cary Price in the dressing room there. He was a very quiet guy, right? He's not, you know, at that time, P.K. Subban played for the Habs, and, you know, you just couldn't shut him up. He was always talking. And so were some of the other members of the Habs, and, you know, he just couldn't shut them up. He was always talking. And so were some of the other members of the Habs,

but Carey Price was sort of down by his stall in the dressing room, and it was actually he who kind of signaled to me that he wanted to say hello, and that's when we met. So about, I don't know, five, six months later, just before the playoffs were to start that year, Price, who doesn't like doing interviews, he rarely does the interviews, certainly rarely does feature interviews,

agreed to do one with me because there was much talk about him. It was like his, and it was an amazing year for him. He won all kinds of trophies that year, including the Hart, the most valuable player in the league trophy. Anyway, he agreed to do one interview

and that one interview would be with me. So I went to Montreal, met him after a practice downtown in Montreal at the Habs hockey rink. And, you know, it's an amazing place with all those banners hanging in the rafters of the Stanley Cup champs of the past

and, you know, the Rocket and the Pocket Rocket and Bellevue and Boom Boom Jeffrey on and, you know, the list goes on and on and on, never stops. And one day, Carey Price's banner and number will be hanging in those rafters. You know it. So anyway, the practice had just been over, and while the media were crowded around the PK Sioux bands and the others, Carey Price and I slipped out the door.

We went down into the parking area in the basement of the Montreal, what do they call it, the Bell Arena or something? And we went down there and we got into his truck, his half ton. I think it was an F-150, I think. And just the two of us. He didn't want any PR people around. He didn't want any of that. So it's just him and I.

And we drove out to his place. And yeah, we just kind of shot the breeze, as they say, various things as we were driving. We were going to meet my crew and producer Stephanie Jenser out at Carrie's home. And it was just like two guys in the truck wearing jeans and jackets. It was still a little cool. There was still snow on the ground. And we get out there, and we spent, I don't know, a couple hours talking, interviewing, walking around, you know, taking the kind of cover shots you need.

And then we did the interview and we were going to do it inside and I thought, or Stephanie thought, I can't remember who, let's just do it beside the truck. I mean, that's full-on Carey Price. He's just a guy in his truck. You know, he likes to go fishing and hunting, and, you know, he makes a lot of his own equipment to do both fishing and hunting. And it draws upon his past, his indigenous past.

He was born in the interior of BC. His mom was the chief of the first nation they lived on. And those indigenous roots are pretty critical to the kind of person Carey Price is. His focus and his determination. And before that game started last night, you know, they had a brief moment of pause, I think they called it, a chance to think through what had happened in the Kamloops area on the residential school question on the 215 souls that were lost there. And the players were all on the ice,

standing there with their sticks in their hands, ready for the game to get going. But I thought, you know, if there's one guy on that ice right now who's thinking deeper thoughts than any of the rest of us, it's Carey Price. Given his own personal background, his own beliefs, his own pride in where he came from. And then the game got underway and he was, he was Carey Price. Shut the door till the last few seconds of the game when Toronto scored a goal. But the game was in hand. And there's a saying in the NHL, you know, you get up a two or three goal lead with Carey Price in that, you're going to win the game.

And that's pretty much what happened in the last three games of the series when the Habs were down 3-1, made it 3-2, 3-3, and then won the seventh game. Sure, Toronto caught up in a couple of those games, but who won in the end? Montreal won.

So, as unhappy as I was about the Leafs losing last night, the bottom line for me was still, we're watching the best goalie in the world. And he still is. He's a remarkable guy. And a really nice guy, too. At least he was with me. I had no complaints about the way he treated me and the access that he gave me.

And that's all I wanted to say about Carey Price. Wish the Habs luck. Wish the Jets luck as they move to the kind Carey Price. Wish the Habs luck. Wish the Jets luck as they move to the Canadian title. I call it the Canada Cup. That starts, I think, tomorrow already. Montreal's going to be tired. Winnipeg's going to be rested. That works both ways.

All right. The main topic for today is this issue of vaccine passports. We talked about it for over the last month, I guess, at different times. And there's no doubt that some people think this is a really important thing. That each of us who's been vaccinated, partially or fully, has a passport that proves that. So you can get on aircraft, get on public transport,

get on trains, get into major events, that you have some proof. Get into restaurants. You name it. You draw the list. And people, some people think, that's okay. That's all right. That makes sense.

Aha, but does it? That becomes the question. And that is the question we're going to put to one of this country's leading privacy experts Right after this. All right. We're back with the bridge for this day. And you're listening to the bridge on one of a couple of places. You're either listening to it on Sirius XM Canada channel 167 or you are listening to it on your podcast provider of choice.

And wherever you're listening to it from, we welcome you. Okay, we're moving on to this issue of vaccine passports. And, you know, I wanted to talk to someone who's much more of an expert, certainly than I am, on the whole question of privacy and privacy surrounding the issue of vaccine passports and whether or not they should be granted, they should be allowed, they should be kind of government approved. Now, the name Anne Kavoukian may be one that you recall.

She was the privacy commissioner in Ontario for, I think, three different terms. She now calls home Ryerson University in Ontario. She was hired by Ryerson as a distinguished visiting professor after the end of her three terms in the Privacy Commissioner's Office in Ontario. She was appointed Executive Director of the Ryerson Privacy and Big Data Institute in 2014. And since 2017, she has been the distinguished expert in residence of the university's Privacy by Design of Excellence. So has she got privacy cred? Oh, yeah, she's definitely got that.

And so that's where I went to have this discussion. Listen closely. And the whole issue of vaccine passports is one that is dominant. It's out there. It's a lot of discussion points on it. So I want to get into it a little bit. For starters, in a general way, where are you on vaccine passports? I oppose them very strongly. They're a fundamental invasion of our privacy because the whole purpose of the vaccine passport is to be made accessible to multiple parties. And the whole fundamental basis of privacy is control,

personal control on the part of the individual, that you would be in control of the information you choose to share and disclose to others. With vaccine passports, you won't have any choice about this. So I just object to it fundamentally. Well, I guess the argument against that would be that you don't have to have a vaccine passport, but if you want access for certain things, it might make that access easier. But that's precisely the problem, is that it forces people to reveal information about themselves. And personal health information is the most sensitive personal information that exists. So you really won't have a choice, although it's positioned that way.

So if vaccine passports are required to travel when you go to the airport to get onto a flight, there is no choice. You can't travel or you must reveal the airport to get onto a flight. There is no choice. You can't travel or you must reveal the information relating to your vaccine passport. And it's being extended beyond travel, of course, to concerts, to sporting events, to gaining access to these, that you have to reveal your vaccine passport. That's never taken place in the past past and it is a fundamental incursion into our privacy and it's it's the foundation of a methodology to control the movement and actions of people and so i object to it on so many grounds okay well let me keep picking away at that i mean we are living in a time when those who believe in passports or excuse me believe in vaccines

and have taken vaccines are not shy about not only saying that but kind of advertising the fact that they that they are taking it they've had a vaccine you know pictures on instagram or twitter with them and they're you know getting the needle what have you so they've already you know they've already allowed a certain amount of information out. They have chosen to do so because they're big fans of vaccine passports and they want to tell the world. But that's also how they control their control, because they're basically saying to people who don't want to do this. What's the matter with you? Why aren't you acting in this way? You should be out there getting your vaccine pass, publicizing and telling the world.

And that's the problem. It inflicts their views on everyone. And that's the way in which they will be trying to control your movements and your actions and the things that you're doing and casting aspersions on people who choose not to do that. So there are many problems associated with this. And it's very divisive, Peter. It's one of my fears is that people who have vaccine passports will insist that everyone should be doing this without any possibility of choice. You know, we already have, before the pandemic, many of us who were kind of world travelers and going to different parts of the world had to have one of those yellow books. I'm not sure what they're called, but they detail what vaccines you've had.

So when you're going into certain countries at certain times, customs officials will ask for that to see that you're properly vaccinated for the country you're going into. Do you have a problem with that? I understand that that may have taken place in the past. But those the vaccines you're referring to have been vaccines that were developed. It took years to develop some because a lot of effort and trial and error and testing goes into these vaccines that have existed for many years. They're tried and true. The methodology for developing the new vaccines in terms of COVID, completely different. You can look into it. I'll send you an article about that, but they are not one and the same. So to suggest that governments should impose this view on everyone, that you must have a vaccine passport for COVID and you must have the vaccine is completely different.

And it is an incursion into our freedom that didn't exist in the past. And this is what I am concerned about in terms of democracies and other governments that they will be imposing these views that if you take a different view on this than the government is taking and presenting that your actions will be affected um it's it's the basis for an authoritarian structure of government um that could erode our our freedom and privacy forms a foundation of our freedom. You cannot have free and open societies without a solid foundation of privacy. So for this and many other reasons,

I object to vaccine passports. Can you point to... Having said that, if I may say one more thing. Yeah, no, go ahead. I'm working with a group called ID2020, who's developing something called the Good Health Pass Collaborative. It's basically saying to governments, if you must have a vaccine passport on the part of your um your mobile device or whatever digital device you choose to use uh it's decentralized so no centralized

authorities or governments can gain access to it and it would enable you when you get to the airport for example should you wish to do so to get on a plane you can disclose to the gate attendant or whoever the fact that you have this vaccine passport. They can view it. They can see it, confirm and let you on the plane. But they don't gain access to the information. They can't collect it, which may then be shared with third parties unknown in an unauthorized manner. So the Good Health Class Collaborative is trying to preserve as much privacy as possible in this world of unfortunately vaccine passports and groups like the iata travel pass have subscribed to it and others

will be so at least if you have to do this do it in a very privacy protective way well that's interesting and and that encouraging. And it also sounds like there's a recognition on the part of those who are concerned about vaccine passports generally, that there is going to be a need for something. And it's trying to find what that right something is that protects your privacy at the same time.'s correct peter um it but if you look at the material put out on the good health pass uh by id 2020 it is very clear that this is not something they are in favor of in terms of vaccine passports that they find it it's an incursion into our privacy and they don't support it but facing reality which we must all do from time to

time um they're developing this so that there's something called ssi secure um uh secure identity in terms of we self so sorry self-sovereign identity ssi self-sovereign identity is where the individual is in control of their personal information. And it's trying to extend that into this area where, unfortunately, you may not have any control in terms of if you want to fly, you're going to have to have a vaccine password, for example. But at least here's the least privacy invasive way of doing it. So it's an extension, attempting to extend the idea of SSI, self-sovereign identity. Can you give me a sense of what's the worst that can happen? I understand the whole issue surrounding the invasion of your privacy

and the incursion into that area. And that I certainly get in the general sense of things. On an individual basis, what is the worst that can happen? Say for me, if I'm using a vaccine passport to show that I've had my vaccines going on to an airplane, what's the worst that can happen with that information? It can be retained with third parties unknown and used in a way, excuse me, vaccine passports will enable you to gain entry into certain things and not.

The biggest problem is that many individuals may be prevented from engaging in activities that in a free and democratic society, they should be allowed to do. You know, travel down, imagine the worst case scenario, you can't go downtown Toronto without a vaccine passport. You can't gain entry into Ontario place

or, you know, public places without a vaccine passport. And then all of this will be tracked. You see, your geolocation data will be traceable because your vaccine passport is going to be everywhere. I went here, I did this, I went there. And all of a sudden, there's a means of tracking your activities and your behavior. Zero privacy, total tracking and surveillance.

I know that sounds extreme, but that is the ultimate end result of all of this, that if you are required to reveal your vaccine passport at all these places, they're going to know where you've been, what you've been doing. One of the essentials of privacy is to do everything we can to avoid that kind of tracking in society of our comings and goings. Because a lot of inferences can be made based upon that. What are your interests? What political parties do you support? You know, who are you meeting with? Maybe you're having an affair. It's nobody's business. But, you know, things of that nature.

Unbelievable stories can be developed from the tracing of this geolocation data associated with the vaccine passports. And if they proliferate, that's what will happen. Okay, let me play devil's advocate, and you and I are good at doing this to each other. We've had arguments around this privacy issue, but let me put it this way. Aren't those concerns that you have,

didn't they already exist before this pandemic? Give me a moment here. I mean, your credit card and your use of it is is available for a lot of people to see and they can track where you go what you've done what you buy all of that um your use of the internet and social media can also do that already. I mean, I found it amazing the other day. I ordered on the Internet through, I think it was Instagram, I ordered a hoodie hoodie companies sending me information because they'd somehow seen this or, you know, how these algorithms work. And so it says to me, and this is where I get to you and I have a major disagreement on that. There is, in effect effect no privacy right now that there there is the ability to scan

everything about your life already exists that's via facebook you're on instagram which is facebook they're obviously interested in getting advertisements and companies to serve your needs and blah blah blah and so that's what they do. I'm not trying to defend Facebook, but here's the response that they will give you. They will say, no eyeballs, no humans. Look at your data. The information goes automatically to the third party who will send you automatically online ads and things.

And that helps Facebook in terms of their revenue model. But no individuals actually look at your data and figure out what you're doing. The other thing, believe it or not, and Peter, you're not going to believe this, but Facebook has, if you want, if you look it up, what's called privacy by design, something I developed many years ago on how to proactively prevent privacy harms from arising. If you, you have to search for it, you can ask for your information to be strictly restricted from third parties unknown on Facebook.

You have to find where it is. But they applaud the fact that they're doing privacy by design and they make it available to people who search it out. It's not automatic, obviously. But the other thing is, so that's an obvious example that you gave

and companies are doing that. But there's also enormous protections of privacy going on that never took place before. There's a whole group now called the Decentralized Identity Foundation. Look it up. Consisting of Microsoft and IBM, big companies that are giving you the individual control, personal control of your identity, your identifying information, because that's what reveals your your privacy and and does all kinds of incursions into it so there's now an actual decentralized identity foundation self-sovereign identity ssi is growing dramatically there's a company called evernim and drum and read which i'm happy to put you in touch with which grows this in a huge way. There are all kinds of growing areas that are privacy protective in response to the fact that there's never been more concern for

privacy as there is now. In the last two years, all of the public opinion polls, Q Internet research, et cetera, have come in at the 90 percentile for concern for privacy, 90 percent concerned about their privacy, 92 percent concerned about loss of control over their information So companies are responding to this in all kinds of ways I mean, it's like a chess game, point counterpoint You know, incursions happen There's very little trust There's such a trust deficit

In response to that, companies are doing things to gain the trust of their customers Privacy by Design, which I developed many years ago, has now been translated into 40 languages. It's followed all around the world. It was included three years ago in a new law introduced in the European Union called the General Data Protection Regulation, the GDPR. And including Privacy by Design in that was huge. Everybody's following it now. So there's also a big movement into privacy as there is a continuing movement in surveillance. And now we also offer privacy by design certification working with KPMG. You wouldn't believe the number of companies that have come to me who want to be certified for privacy by design to show their customers the lengths they're going to to protect their privacy because they know they care about it and they come back to me and they said we gained a competitive advantage by adopting privacy by design and letting our customers know how much respect we have for them and their privacy and

what they've said is that's built trusted business relationships with us like never before so i'm not suggesting what you're saying is wrong but i'm saying there's also another side and we have to try to preserve that other side because privacy is essential to freedom freedom is to me everything you know i'm armenian um we went through the armenian genocide we know what happens when the government has all your information you're looking over your shoulder it is appalling we have to avoid that at all costs, and we can do it. All right. Last point. You know, I'm fascinated by the data you were talking about in terms of the research surveys and polls that have been done. And I just wonder whether on those it's been broken down into age categories. Because I've had, and I could very well be wrong on this, but I've had the impression that the younger generation coming out of high

schools and universities are less concerned about privacy than we used to be that they live, they live in a very different world that we grew up in. And it's wrong, Peter. Okay. I know that's the prevailing view. And maybe that was the case for millennials,

but a gen is a Gen Z or Gen Z. I never know. I've lost track of which we're in right now. They have greater concern for privacy than ever before. And there are research studies showing this. I'm trying to think of her name. Nancy Boyd or I'll come to it. She's at New York University. She's done studies in this area. And she has showed that the Gen Zs are more concerned about privacy than ever before because they've been exposed to all of these incursions. And they hate it.

They want to keep in their cone and they don't want people getting their information who they don't want to share it with. So in fact, that may have been true in the previous generations, but the youngest ones now who are so savvy online have far greater concern for privacy. So privacy concern has grown again with the youngest population, which makes me very happy, of course. So you cannot give up on privacy.

You never give up on it. I'm not suggesting it's easy to do, to hold on to privacy, but we can do it. We have up on it. I'm not suggesting it's easy to do, to hold on to privacy, but we can do it. We have to do it. All right. We're going to leave it at that, Anne. Thanks. I'll send you some articles if I may. I'm sure you will. Is that okay? Yeah, of course it's okay. I'd love to read it. Thanks so much. We'll talk to you again. It's a pleasure speaking with you. And I'm sorry I go on and on about this, but freedom is so important to me. And allowing governments expanded use of our information, can't do it.

Have a great day, Peter. Yeah, you have a great day, too. And passion, there's no reason not to be passionate about subjects. And you've clearly made your mark on this one. So thanks again. Thank you so much. And if you write up, if you do a blog or anything about this, please send it to me. Okay. And there she is, Ann Kavuki. And as I said at the end, man, she's got passion on the privacy

issue and good for her that she does because she gives us all a lot to think of on this particular question. I'd love to hear what you think about it. So, you know, don't be shy if you have some thoughts on privacy and on vaccine passports and how is it exactly we're going to navigate on our, you know, our travels, business or personal in the near future as we come out of, slowly come out of the pandemic situation. This is, you know, it's going to be a critical question

about the way we live in the next, you know, the next year or two for sure, and maybe longer. So you might want to give it some thought yourself. And if you choose to share those thoughts, it's themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. Tomorrow, Wednesday, it is our Smoke Mirrors and the Truth Day with Bruce Anderson.

Not sure what we'll be talking about yet, but there will be something. There always is. And Thursday is Potpourri Thursday, where I've already got a stack of stuff here. You know, I can't get to it all. And it builds up week after week. But I will look at some of the ones that seem to be most interesting and pass them along on Thursday.

Friday is the weekend special. That's where we get to hear your thoughts and your questions and concerns. So ship them along to themansbridgepodcast.gmail.com. Remember to not only include your name, but where you are writing from. And it's always great to hear from new listeners, as we do every week.

But I want to keep reminding you, don't be shy. This is a great opportunity for you to let loose on your own feelings. It could be any issue. It could be vaccine passports. It could be second doses. It could be Carey Price. Although, really, who could say more than what I just said about Carey Price? Right?

I know Andrew Crystal will be waxing poetic on that on his show coming up very shortly on SiriusXM Canada Talks, channel 167. Because Andrew, he loves the Habs. He just loves the Habs. So he must have been ecstatic last night. Just kidding. All right, we're done. That's been the bridge for this Tuesday. Thanks for listening.

Talk to you again in 24 hours. Thank you.