The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - The Weekend Special # 63

Episode Date: June 4, 2021

Two stories dominated the news and your emails this week -- The Kamloops Residential School, and Vaccine Passports.  Lots of thoughts and ideas from you about what to do about both.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. It's Friday, it's time for the weekend special. You still trying to find ways to get into the world of crypto? Well look no further. Bitbuy is Canada's number one platform for buying and selling Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitbuy has launched a brand new app and website with a new look, lower fees and new coins. Bitbuy is your one-stop shop to get involved and super easy to use for beginners. Visit bitbuy.ca or download the BitBuy app. Enter referral code podcast20 to get $20 free when you make your first deposit. And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. Yes, it's Friday.

Friday means weekend special. Weekend special means your letters, your thoughts, your comments, your ideas. And there are a couple of central themes here to this Friday's weekend special. But before I get to it, I should probably just say something. This is like going to be your, you know how they have in football games, like the two-minute warning? And with presidential news conferences and prime ministerial conferences, they'll give you the one-minute warning before the leader enters the room so everybody can be ready.

So this is the one-month warning, roughly a month. After 15 months of doing the bridge, almost every day, Monday to Friday for the last 15 months, I, like a lot of you, I hope, am looking forward to a little bit of a break this summer. So the bridge will be going on hiatus near the end of June. I think the last Friday in June, I think it's what, the 25th, something like that. We'll take a break, but we're not going completely away because there's too much going on. But, you know, I'm going to be away a little bit, hopefully, depending on quarantines and this, that, and the other, I'm going to get overseas. But there's still things you can do in today's world, no matter where you are. And one of the things I'll be doing is trying to do every Wednesday,

a version of the bridge. In fact, it'll be a version of the bridge and smoke mirrors and the truth because Bruce is going to join us from wherever he is. And we'll just go on a rant about whatever we feel is the appropriate thing to rant about at that time. So, once again, end of June. Going to go on hiatus for a while,

but it will mean a once-a-week program instead of each day, Monday to Friday. We'll do it until it's clear. Well, this is the most likely scenario both Bruce and I think there'll be an election call somewhere around the middle of August and if there is we'll be back on daily then because we want to be daily through the election campaign if there is no election campaign we'll probably stretch it into June sorry into September before we come back. Alright. So fair warning.

The bridge is going to take a little bit of a break. And I think we all deserve a bit of a break. But we'll see. Right? Hopefully we can. Things looking up a little bit on a number of fronts on the pandemic front. So the pandemic is one of the topics that you chose to write about quite a bit about this week, especially around the question of vaccine passports. But the issue you wrote about more than anything else, more than anything else, was the Kamloops story, the residential schools story,

and the tragedy of what we found out more about this week. And that was the 215 bodies that have been determined to exist in the grounds beneath the Kamloops Residential School, or what was the Kamloops Residential School? Kids. Indigenous kids. So I'm just going to read some of these letters, and there's an interesting variety of letters here

of people shocked and horrified and some people raising questions about all this. We'll start with Grant Carlson. He's an Outlook Saskatchewan. Why have I heard so little about those that did the abuse? Hundreds of these abusers would still be alive. A lady from the BC school said when she was a little girl, she could hear the heavy steps of someone coming up the stairs well after bedtime.

It wouldn't be long before the whimpering would start of someone who was picked for that night's abuse. All the girls knew something bad was happening. This lady seemed to be in her 50s now. It could very well be that the abuser would now be in his late 60s or 70s. I'm sure the now adults would remember some of the abuser's faces. It would go a long way to help, I believe, to see some abusers held to account for their actions, regardless of their current age. That's from Grant Carlson, Outlook Saskatchewan. Stacey Birgo Campbell is in Vancouver.

We currently have no contacts regarding the unmarked graves in Kamloops. Children should have not died in schools, nor should the schools have ever existed. However, it's unclear how, when, or why they died. These are all important questions that need to be answered. What I have seen on social media is a reaction akin to the idea that they died in a concentration camp. Again, I'm not defending the schools. We just need to find out the full story before taking concrete, irreversible action.

It's a sickening story, and we, Canada, need to do right by our First Nations people immediately. I just feel like there need to be fewer knee-jerk reactions and more critical, thoughtful considerations taking place, and a fulsome understanding of our history and context to when it took place. You know, I'm not sure about all that, Stacey. But let me keep reading the letters here, and then I'll have something to say after this selection. These aren't all the letters I received this week on this issue. They're just some of them, and they're not the full letter in each case. It's usually just one or two sentences from each one.

This next letter is from Kathy Wills in Calgary. We must force every level of government to stop passing the buck and making excuses. Otherwise, we're worse than the colonists. A genocide is a genocide. to stop passing the buck and making excuses. Otherwise, we're worse than the colonists. A genocide is a genocide. Call it what it is. We lived in Kamloops, an area called Dallas, between 88 and 93. That intersection where the residential school sits always gave me bad mojo. I drove by it a gazillion

times. It's a creepy intersection, and now I know why. My daughter mentioned when the news broke that she remembered school field trips in grades one and two to powwow stage there and was horrified she might have been standing on mass graves. She's been in contact with school friends in the last couple of days from back in the day that now live all over Canada. And they are all collectively horrified. As far as I'm concerned, we're all standing on mass graves. And I'm sick and tired of the excuses. Here's one from Scott Young

in Yellowknife. Scott says he's formerly of Belle Island, Newfoundland. Great spot. You often can see Belle Island when you're flying to St. John's and they take this kind of big swing around out

under the ocean and back around. You sometimes get to see Belle Island as you're coming in. Scott writes, I'm saddened by the recent news this week in Kamloops. I'd be remiss if I didn't pay tribute to the hundreds of little souls that were taken from their families. You know, Canada prides itself in so many ways.

Last night's hockey game is a prime example. Montreal versus Toronto, game seven in the playoffs. A script that could only be written by the likes of Stephen Brunt. However, are we not hypocritical as a country? I just read a quote from George Strombolopoulos, where he commented on the moment of recognition during last night's game and a quote from our national anthem, God keep our land glorious and free. Really? It's shameful how we as a country treated the indigenous population and continue to do so.

You are right, Justice Sinclair said it best. We have described for you a mountain. We have shown you the way to the top. We call upon you to do the climbing. We are so far from the top. Scott Young from Yellowknife. Albert Leblanc is in St. Catharines, Ontario. History needs to include the real history

between settler and Indigenous Canadians. The systematic racism perpetuated by white Canadians on BIPOC Canadians needs to be faced, starting with residential schools, so that real change can be faced. In fact, I think Canada's residential schools and the reality that the colonies that would become Canada participate in the international slave trade need to be tied as histories that need to be taught and faced. Truthfully, they deserved it over a century ago. It's time for more than just apologies and vigils, as you said. Those days needed to be over a long time ago.

It's time for treaties to be upheld, justice served, and Canada's Indigenous community to be given proper respect, the most basic respect. Probably restore those children to their families any way possible. Albert LeBlanc in St. Catherine's. Robin Ward wrote from Edmonton. We hear from Robin every once in a while.

Robin Ward writes, I just listened to Smoke Mirrors and the Truth. Bruce and I talked about this the other day. Thank you for your passion for reconciliation, or what some people are calling for these days, reconciliation. Your passion's moving. I also appreciate your insistence that it has to be all of us, not just government. I know that I've fallen short and have to do more. Deb Broomfield from Olin Sound.

Thank you for the suggestion to read the 94 recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I've done that and continue to do more by reading current news stories, going back to the series produced by the CBC, in their own words words and relevant podcasts. Hearing the residential school survivors tell their story in their own words was deeply, deeply impactful. In closing, I wondered if you could offer some guidance

into how the individual person can help moving forward. All right, Deb. Deb Bloomfield in Owen Sound, Ontario. Look, let me give you some thoughts of mine on this. I know there's another weekend specialist for your thoughts, but you asked, so I'm going to give you just a little bit. Because, you know, we should know this story. And there are certain elements of this story that are absolutely true.

And we cannot doubt them now. They've been proven. They exist. Read the Truth and Reconciliation Report, the most studied document into this whole episode of our history. Let me give you some facts about what we're dealing with right now. Okay. According to the First Nations and now the BC Coroner's Office,

preliminary findings using ground penetrating radar have identified the remains of as many as 215 children on the grounds of the Kamloops residential school. A final report is expected in a few weeks' time. of as many as 215 children on the grounds of the Kamloops Residential School. A final report is expected in a few weeks' time. It is the largest residential school in Canada, and it was identified in 2009 as part of the TRC, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, of having at least 50 deaths, though identifying those children is ongoing. The TRC identifies, wait for it, 4,100 children died in residential schools. That's what they say. After their

studies and hearings and testimony right across the country. 4,100. Though the true toll is higher. One of the recommendations from the TRC was funding to perform this ground penetrating research in a respectful way to provide closure to families whose children never came home. You know, a couple of people said, we have to determine exactly how they died. Actually, no, we don't. They died. They never went home. They weren't even given a

choice of going to those residential schools. They were forced to go there. They were dragged you know in some cases by the rcmp and when some tried to run away from home or run away from the schools they either died trying to get home or they were caught and brought back so do you have to know how exactly they died? Is there some question here about, you know, maybe it was an accident? No, it wasn't. Records have been withheld by both the church and the government, that could uncover the recorded deaths. Could that be useful?

I guess, perhaps. But nobody's doubting they died when they were in the care of residential schools. They were never taken back to their families. Their families were given no explanation. I'd also challenge people to consider that these children were sent or taken to these schools, and in the event of their deaths, and in some cases, nothing at all was shared with any of these families.

Think about that. They simply disappeared. How many or how they died, to me, is a secondary fact. These were children under the care of the government and the church, and they never came home. They are a fact of residential schools. That was confirmed during the TRC.

The preliminary findings in Kamloops may actually be a chance to identify and provide closure to hundreds of families who suffered from the trauma and loss of losing small children at the hands of their own government. That's us. That's who we are. This story's who we are. This story is who we are. It's not about some faraway land. It's about us.

Okay, I'm going to take a quick break. Then we come back with a different topic. You're listening to the weekend special on The Bridge, either on Sirius XM, Canada, Channel 167, or you're listening to it on your favorite podcast platform. On, I think it was Tuesday of this week, we had a discussion about vaccine passports. And as a guest, to provoke discussion and debate, which is exactly what happens in your letters here, we had on Anne Kavoukian, who is a respected, internationally known privacy expert.

She was the privacy commissioner in the province of Ontario, three-term privacy commissioner. And she has strong views about privacy. Gosh, what a shock. Do you think she believes in privacy? Yes, she believes in privacy. And she and I have discussed and debated various angles to the privacy question. She firmly believes that privacy can still exist.

I believe we live in an era where it doesn't exist. Anybody who thinks it does, I should be very careful. Anyway, let's listen to Diane Thompson. She wrote from London, Ontario. I'm listening to the podcast on vaccine passports, and I'm discouraged by your guest, the privacy expert. She lost credibility for me near the start, where she claimed that her issue with vaccine passports

was around not having to share information. Soon later, you questioned her about the yellow vaccine booklets that have been used for years to show evidence of vaccines before traveling to certain countries, and she quickly stated that those vaccines have been around for years and were well- well designed and tested. So which is it? Is her concern about vaccine passports really about privacy? Or is her opinion that the COVID-19 vaccines aren't deserving of the same status as other

vaccines that she deems okay to show evidence of having received? That's part of what Diane Thompson from London, Ontario has to say. Gabriella Zilmer from Toronto. Here's part of her letter. I've just listened to the podcast featuring Anne Kavoukian, the former Privacy Commissioner of Ontario. I'm very familiar with Anne and her work. In fact, I relied on her published works to inform a lot of my work before I retired.

As a senior executive in human resources, I dealt with the most sensitive of information and took that responsibility very serious. Ms. Kavoukian's work was extremely informative to me. Having said that, as I listened to your conversation with her, I felt that her arguments were not as compelling to me as I had experienced in the past. In fact, it sounded to me like privacy at all costs. Of course, we don't want governments collecting data for nefarious reasons,

but I hardly think managing public safety is nefarious. Your point on credit cards and geo-tracking was right on, as was your example of social media. Each person needs to balance convenience for giving up some privacy. Let's try to make those credit cards, sorry, let's try to take those credit cards away from people in the name of privacy. I don't think so. Miscavoukian might argue that people have a choice, but to that I say, just try to get along in today's world without a credit card, passport,

and to a lesser extent, social media. You end up opting out on a lot. Barb Demaree writes from Vancouver. I just finished listening to your guest on the issue of vaccine passports and was seething. We are slowly getting out of the deadliest pandemic in our lifetime. Personally, health and safety take priority over someone knowing I attended a concert or flew to France. Maybe this is a naive approach, but I think for people who don't want to produce a vaccine passport

for the purpose of protecting their privacy, that ship has long sailed. As you so rightly pointed out, we're being tracked all the time. Anne should take some pride in the fact that she provoked a lot of discussion on this topic. John Eric Paulabauer writes from Dieppe, New Brunswick. I very much enjoyed your brilliant interview with the privacy expert, Anne Kavoukian. Brilliant interview. Did you hear that? Why didn't I start with this one?

Thank you for bringing out the many diverse and, in some instances, diametrically opposed rights, insights, benefits and obligations with respect to the use of vaccine passports in Canada. All said and done, my vote is for vaccine passports. I'm fairly confident that if either or both of the Canadian or provincial governments take a pass on vaccine passports, the private capitalistic system will quickly step in to fill the void if there is sufficient monetary profits to be made.

Now that's an interesting take. Sheila Duhu Fowler in Ottawa. It was a very interesting discussion with Ann Kavoukian on Tuesday, but I can't help thinking that the problem is not with the vaccine passports as such, but rather with the medium in which they are made available and shared. I know that I will be seen as antiquated, but if we went back to hard copy vaccine booklets, like the ones we had years ago,

International Certificate of Vaccination, those yellow books I talked about, there would be no problem. Hard copy documents cannot be so easily shared. Just to show how antiquated I actually am, I have to say that I do not have a smartphone. I would have to have a hard copy vaccine passport anyway. Wouldn't this be a simple, albeit low-tech solution? Actually, Sheila, I don't think that would work, and I'll tell you why.

It sounds good on the face of it, but when you think about it for a minute, you have a hard copy passport, and you're checking in. Like those yellow booklets. I mean, Anne was right. You can still have one, and your doctor will give you one. But nobody asks for them anymore.

I can't remember the last time I went through customs in a different country, and I do a lot of cross-border traveling, when anybody ever asked for something like that. But nevertheless, if you did proffer it to somebody at a border, you don't think they're going to scan it in some fashion? And then, bingo, you're off and running. It's out there. Okay?

Anyway, listen, that's just a selection of some of the letters. There were lots. And there were those who sided with Ann Kavoukian and those who did not, as you heard. And I think some of them have very interesting arguments. And I know Anne feels passionate. She's not some kind of privacy kook. She's like, she knows her stuff.

And that's why other countries and different organizations want to hear from her. As did we. And I'm glad we had her on because, as I said, it got a lot of you, you know, involved in the discussion around this issue of vaccine passports. And I'm sure there's going to be more discussion on this as we go along. Okay, a couple of things to wrap up this weekend special. A couple of people had ideas for the next time we talk to one of our experts, and as you know, we usually do that on Monday, sometimes on Tuesday as well. Rob McKenzie from Toronto. Still enjoying your podcast, 13 months and counting.

It's a great companion for my daily cycle. Where were you the first couple of months? I have a couple of questions for one of your Monday experts. No need to mention my name if you use them. I'm just interested to hear their response. Well, I'll give you one of Rob's questions. This is a good one. I'm a bit surprised to have a buffet-style choice now for my second dose.

I had AstraZeneca for my first dose, and I'm now told that I can choose my second one. I'm an engineer with no medical training whatsoever. I find it strange to be facing such a decision. We have lots of experienced people in our public health system available to guide us, and I'd prefer to simply follow their advice. What should someone like me do? Good question. And I'll ask whoever's on with us on monday that question i do know having myself trying to find my second dose um is that many pharmacies especially and these special clinics that pop up usually deal on just one at least one a day vaccine, right? So it's not like the buffet style. It's

not like going for a buffet dinner where they're, well, we have here AstraZeneca. And over here on this tray, we have Moderna. Ah, but look just down the buffet table here. We have some Pfizer. So which one, ma'am, would you like? The Pfizer, the Moderna, the AstraZeneca, and a little Johnson & Johnson one-dose shot over here. That's not what happens. All right? Usually wherever you go, your pharmacy or the clinic,

will have one kind. I don't think they want to be mixing them all up in their offices or wherever they're doling them out on any particular day. They may have your AstraZeneca day and then your Moderna day the next day or a couple of days down the way. So, but still, I like your question, and I will find someone to answer it for us. T-Bone Bilgin, Tyrone Bilgin in Toronto. T-Bone Bilgin. Tyrone Bilgin. In Toronto. T-Bone.

I just started listening to your podcast with a need to search my SiriusXM app for Canadian content. Usually I would turn on the TV to some cable channels for a news update. Well, the bulb turned, or the bulb burned out on the TV about the same time I was burned out on cable news pundits on issues of the day. Even I have been a little bit. Please, don't tell me we missed Trump. But I find myself, I just, like, I can't watch it like I used to watch it. Maybe it's just a lull.

Who knows? However, as Tyrone says, or T-Bone, I look forward to listening to you and the podcast and even keeping up on that radish farmer guy. Of all the items you covered so far, the one that sticks with me is the discovery of that farmer's journal. Remember that a couple of weeks ago? Wasn't that wonderful? What a great thing to find.

It reminds me of what a ship's captain's log must have been like. And still, these ship's captains still write logs. What I find truly fantastic is that however brief the entry, that he took the time to actually comment on the events of the day, such as the end of World War II. It was amazing. I'll chirp in from time to time.

I love that. Okay, Tyrone. Looking forward to it. Here's the last letter of the week. Comes from Edmonton, Alberta. From Megan Rondo. Hi, Peter.

Yesterday, I was fortunate enough to receive my second dose of the COVID-19 vaccine. You're lucky, Megan. Good for you. Alberta just opened second doses for anyone who received their first dose in March. When I received my first dose, I was obviously happy. But when I got my second dose yesterday, my eyes started to fill with tears, and I became overwhelmed with emotion. Ultimately, nothing is changing for me right away. I'm still wearing a mask and obeying all COVID-19 guidelines. I work from home, so my only in-person interactions during the workday are with my husband. I was overwhelmed, though, by the feeling of possibility and that things might be normal again. I'm pregnant with my second child and these first few months of my

pregnancy have been hard. My husband has not been able to come to any of the ultrasounds I've had, which is a much different experience than with my first. I do not care about being able to go to large events like the Calgary Stampede, but what I am looking forward to is the little things. I have an ultrasound at the end of the month, and I'm so hopeful that my husband can come to that. I want to be able to hug my friends again. I want my daughter to stop using the sentence, when the coronavirus is over, can we go and do such and such? I want to be able to go over to my parents' house for dinner.

And I want them to be able to come to the hospital when the new baby is born in November. Getting the second dose yesterday offered me some hope that these things might be possible. I hope soon that everyone gets to experience what I got to experience yesterday. It's an amazing feeling knowing you are fully vaccinated. Have a great weekend. Megan Rondo, Edmonton, Alberta. Isn't that lovely? Isn't that just great? Man, we've come a long way in the last 15 months.

We're not there yet. But we truly can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And really, it's getting closer all the time. And letters like that one from Megan. Megan, you may be an emotional. Your eyes welling a little bit. But so I'm sure a lot of people

have just heard what you wrote. It's not just about you. It's about all of us. And I think we can all see that joy in your life and what you're hoping for in the weeks and months ahead. And we can share it from a distance

or in our own thoughts about our own lives. We've lost an awful lot in the last 15 months. We've lost part of our soul. We've lost friends and family. But we've gained, too. We've gained an appreciation of the work of others. We've gained a newfound richness in the love we have for our great outdoors, being shut out of it and staying at home has made us realize

just how important that outdoors is to us. You know, I'm in Toronto right now, but when I'm home in Stratford and I go down by the Avon River and kind of lake river that runs in the middle of town and on these increasingly summery days it's just packed with people just walking just enjoying the moment well we're at the, so why don't you enjoy it too? Recognize we're not done yet. We've still got to be careful. We've still got to be kind.

We've still got to look after not only ourselves, but those who are close to us. And we've got to be grateful for those who have gone the extra mile in this last 15 months that we've all benefited from. All right, enough already. Enjoy your weekend. I'm Peter Mansbridge. This has been The Bridge, the weekend edition.

Thank you so much for listening. And we'll talk to you again on Monday. Thank you.