The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - "This bloody Putin" -- We Go Inside Kyiv.

Episode Date: March 14, 2022

The long-awaited attack on the Ukrainian capital seems to be underway, and The Bridge goes inside with a first-hand account of what it's like.  Olexiy Haran from Kyiv University talks to us from his home within earshot of the attacks.  And it's Monday, so we have our latest COVID update, this week with Lynora Saxinger from Edmonton. AS people start going back to their offices what's the best advice to follow?

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. The attack on the Ukrainian capital of Kiev has begun. We go there to find out what it's like. And from Stratford, Ontario, I'm Peter Mansbridge. Good to talk to you again, beginning a new week of The Bridge. For the last couple of weeks, the word has been out that the Russians were about to attack the Ukrainian capital of Kiev. There have been the odd missile shots, bomb shots into Kiev. But today it seemed to take on a whole new dimension, and we could be witnessing the beginning of the onslaught on the Ukrainian capital.

If you were watching television news this morning, doesn't matter which channel, you probably saw the latest pictures from Ukraine, and they're from Kiev. Two huge, massive apartment blocks under attack either by Russian missiles or bombs, rockets, we don't know exactly what it was. But the fact is, the attack was pretty devastating you see these huge apartment

blocks with all the windows blown out and big areas severely damaged there's no calculation yet final calculation yet of the casualties but there were casualties. And it has raised this whole question of what's next. There's supposedly peace negotiations going on or at least ceasefire negotiations going on. But still, the attack on the capital seems to have begun. The Russians have not had a good war so far, as if any war can be good. The Ukrainians have shown incredible resolve and defensive skills, but this is a whole

new dimension to what is going on in Ukraine. So when you look at those pictures try to imagine what it must be like to be living in one of those apartments or something similar to that and you've been waiting for this for a couple of weeks those who have chosen to stay in kiev and a lot of people have. Kiev's a big city, 3 million people. And apparently less than 25% have left the city. So a lot of people still there. So a lot of people in those apartments. And one of the people in a similar apartment is somebody who you've been familiar with

if you've listened to The Bridge over the last couple of weeks. Alexei Harin is a university professor. Professor of comparative politics at Kiev University. And a friend of Canada's been here more than a few times. I just did a program with him at the University of Toronto a couple of weeks ago, a panel discussion on the situation in Ukraine. But he's there with his family and so at night when

these attacks usually take place, for night after night after night after night. He's been lying there waiting. And we're going to go to him again here now. I want you to keep that in mind what this must have been like. Alexi's a great guy. Sense of humor. He still has that sense of humor. But you can tell just listening to him the toll it must be taking on so many people there.

He still has his spirits. He still has his resolve. But he's tired. He can hear it. And I'm sure a lot of his friends are in the same situation. But I wanted to get his thoughts on what exactly it's like right now, but also given the fact President Zelensky will be speaking to the Canadian House of Commons tomorrow, the Canadian Parliament,

what he thinks Canada should expect from that speech and what he thinks Ukrainians are hoping from Canada, aside from the help it's already given. So, let's hear from Alexei again and see just what he has to say. Here we go. Alexei, if the experts are right, the military experts, they say the Russians are about to begin a full-scale attack on Kiev. Do you feel that? Well, this is in the plans of Russians.

Definitely, they would like to capture the capital. Realistically, what we see right now, again, defense here is quite strong. They are moving, but they are stalled all the time. There are heavy fights. I hear the explosions right now. I think this is a sign of a fierce fight, not far from Kiev. But look, frankly speaking, I don't understand how they are going to capture the city. Because even if they move into the city, there would be fight within the capital, street fight,

with heavy losses for Russians. So, frankly speaking, I can't imagine how it will happen and how Russians would fight in Kiev. Maybe for that matter, Putin declared that he is going to use mercenaries from Syria. He is going to use criminals from Chechnya. We call them Kadirovtsi because a lot of Chechens they are fighting for Ukraine. I am pretty sure this would be a very difficult task for Russians to capture the city. Now, you say you can hear the shelling, you can hear the bombs from where you are? Yes.

How far away would that be? Well, today there was some shelling of kiev and actually there were several bombs right in the historic center of kiev not far from my university but mostly uh as i have said there are i think there are explosions around the city and for me it's difficult to say what's going on because maybe this is our artillery maybe this is our

defense system maybe it's a fierce fight so it's difficult for me to say you know we are not spreading information with you know concrete places where where there is a challenge so we know in general that there are heavy fights around the city but kiev is not encircled but you've decided to stay in the city you've you've always maintained that whenever we've talked. Why do you want to stay?

Well, to have a joke, because in this way, I am becoming more interesting for foreign journalists like you, right? That's a heck of a price to pay. Well, to say frankly, look uh first of all uh how to say that how to formulate that look i am a public figure i am commenting on ukrainian tv and i am saying that ukrainians going to fight, to fight for Kyiv. I am asking everybody in Kyiv to help in this or that way, our army, our territorial defense.

So I don't think it would be right if I will evacuate from Kyiv. Simple. It's not right. How about the rest of your family? Have they left? Well, three daughters, two daughters left. One daughter is still staying here. She decided to

stay with parents and grandmother. This is her choice. Well, well. What is the morale? What is the morale of? Morale is very high.

It's very high. And so, you know, people are helping each other. People are helping not only army, not only territorial defense. They are doing a lot of volunteer work. They are helping the elderly people who cannot evacuate, spreading food, bringing food. So I would say the morale is very, very high. What is the situation on food, on basic supplies,

whether it's food or water or electricity, gasoline? such places like Kharkiv or Mariupol in the east. This is totally destroyed, and it's not possible to reconnect because of the Russians' actions, and the Russians are preventing humanitarian convoys, for example, to Mariupol in the east of Ukraine. So compared to that, we are doing fine so far. In Kiev, definitely there are problems with gasoline well cars are moving uh well i i don't have a kind i i it's not again so um i cannot describe it in in in details there is some shortage of gasoline but but still look today for example i saw one bus

on the route uh uh subway is working in some places not all definitely it's very rare for for example, one train per hour or even more than an hour, hour and a half. But, you know, still it's possible in some places to use subway. Regarding food, I would say that now it's more or less okay. So there are basic products. Some shops close, but a lot of shops continue to function. So well, you know, for example, and I would say that even, you know, some stuff is

spread for free. In some places you can get water for free. In some places you can get bread for free. I know that many restaurants are now working as a kitchen, field kitchen, you know, to prepare food and to give it, spread it to soldiers and those who are in need

again for free so again in general we shouldn't complain you know compared to what we have in many other in many other Ukrainian cities especially those who are which are besieged or those which are occupied.

Because there the situation is very bad. And the situation, one assumes, could change within a matter of days if Kyiv, in fact, is attacked. Yes, it could happen so that's why for example we prepare some some food you know some water to have it in in our apartment if there would be a shortage so yes we did it um alexi tell me about how you feel about the rest of the world do you feel that the rest of the world they seem to be saying all the right things but but are they letting ukraine down by not taking a more active role look in general i would say that now support for Ukraine is great and we appreciate it. There are huge sanctions against Russia. There is supply of arms to Ukraine. So we do appreciate it. But as I have said,

these sanctions are belated. So they didn't stop a war. So only now the West realized that it's necessary to sanction this bloody Putin's regime. And look, I understand what we really need. We need capabilities for air defense. We have air defense, and it appears to be effective, but it's not enough. Because here, Russians have preponderance. And, well, I understand NATO positions that they cannot establish cannot establish no-fly zone because they are afraid to shoot down Russian planes because it would lead to the threat of nuclear war

but guys, give us jets give us air defense systems, that's what we need we will operate alone and speaking, I don't understand this Polish American ping pong regarding jets. And actually jets, which are MiGs, which are Soviet type jets, MIG, Poland has it. So move it to Ukraine. But Poland somehow said, well, we will move it to American base in Germany. And then, I don't understand. And then, you know, this ping pong started. Not all countries are supporting us with arms. Actually, not all Russian banks are disconnected from SWIFT

the largest Russian banks which is Sberbank is not disconnected from SWIFT because of position of Germany so a lot has been done but a lot is to be done some foreign companies but a lot is to be done. Some foreign companies are continuing to work in Russia,

which is a shame, but they are doing it, you know, like business as usual. So I would say that, look, Western sanctions are at high level, but even let's go to Turkey. Turkey didn't close its fly zone for Russian planes. Russian oligarchs and Russian so-called elite to evacuate their children out of Russia to safe places in the Middle East, for example. The same is for Emirates. So they're going to Emirates through Turkey.

So not to mention position of such countries as India and China. So, even Chinese, you know, because some Chinese banks, they are very closely associated with

American business, and so they decided not to risk and not to continue all operations with Russia, because in this case they would be under American sanctions. But still, Chinese position definitely knows they are playing a game here. Tomorrow, the Ukrainian president, President Zelelensky is going to be speaking in the canadian parliament through one of these satellite hookups um you know the relationship between canada and ukraine is very strong goes back decades and there are a lot of ukrainian

canadians uh here who are passionate about their original country. What approach do you think that President Zelensky should take in speaking to the Canadian Parliament, knowing what Canada has done already and what Canada has said already? What do you think the approach should be? Well, it's difficult for me to speak about it in details because, as you rightly said, Canada is supporting us and the general. I think he would. I am not advisor of Zelensky. So they are thinking in his office how to structure this speech better. What I think is important, basically what I have said, we need arms of all visa or master cards.

So Russians inside Russia can use not only regarding buying something from the West, but also to use within the country. But first thing is, yes, weapons. Weapons regarding air defense. It'll be interesting to see how he handles that speech because we saw him, you know, speaking into the British Parliament on the end of last week. And it was the same kind of approach, you know,

trying to implore the the nato countries to be even more active on the defense side of the situation whether it's the no-fly zone can i explain here for example there is a support of arms well fuel is very important, actually, for Ukraine, because Russia are bombing our, how to say it correctly, place where fuel is stored. Storage plant. Fuel storage, yes. And there could be supply from through Europe to Ukraine. But what Russia is saying is that they are going to bomb convoys which are delivering arms

into Ukraine. So let's think what should be done. Let's think together. So Russia is using again airstrikes in order to undermine the routes of supply from Europe to Ukraine. So I think here strong Western position should be, will be tested, actually.

And again, we know about Canada. We know about Canada. But what about some European countries? And because Canada is a member of NATO, a member of G7, I think Canada can do a lot. Do you believe anything that Putin says anymore? Well, I believe when he will say that he's going to capitulate and commit

suicide. Do you think there's any real possibility of that? No, I don't think so. But look, pressure to him will... Pressure on him can make him to stop violence to have a ceasefire and to start

diplomatic negotiations how to proceed frankly speaking i am i i hope that at some point, and actually there is a dissatisfaction of people around him about the things that are going because the war undermines position of oligarchs, of Russian so-called elite and I hope

that there could be something could it maybe or even persuading Putin to stop And I hope that there could be something, coup d'etat maybe, or even persuading Putin to stop. But to do that again, both Ukraine and the West should be strong not to play diplomatic games or concessions with Putin. You know, a couple of weeks ago when we talked, I asked you whether you placed any faith in the negotiations that were taking place along the border

and then also took place last week in Turkey. You had no faith in those negotiations, but you sound you sound today like you may be a little more hopeful that something could take place because the fact is the war hasn't gone russia's way so far yes correct correct so every day of war makes uh makes russia weaker and look what atrocities they are doing. You know, this is simply crazy. Why?

They cannot explain it to the world. Even to those people who, you know, sympathize to Russia or who took a middle approach between Russia and Ukraine. But what Russia is doing and the whole world is seeing that. Look, today, Russian tank crashed the car with civilians and a child. You know, for what purpose?

This is, you know, this is crazy. They are fascists. They are fascists. By the way, we use in Russian and Ukrainian, fascist sounds like fascisti. So in Ukraine, we are saying now rassisti, which is a word combining Russia and fascism, russiasty. And I think this is the right word. Again, you know, for example, even before this war, I was describing Putin's regime like authoritarian, but not totalitarian, because there was some opposition channels, opposition channels. There was some possibility to speak, to find news on Internet.

But now it's all ended. So basically, I think that regime now in Russia is fascist. Alexei, we're going to wrap this up. You've given us a glimpse into what it must be like living in that city, the beautiful city of Kiev, and yet it's the target. It's the big target on the map for Russia. Do you get any sleep at night? Can you sleep?

Yes. It's difficult for me, how to say it, to start sleeping. Because I'm thinking all the time about what's going on, checking news, which is not good for sleeping. No. But when I sleep, I can sleep, yeah. Again, and it depends. Look, I decided for myself that I am not going to the bombshell

unless they use some you know, total bombing of the city. So if they start bombing of the city on the whole city, then there would be no escape than to go to

bomb shelter. Now it's too difficult for me because I'm an old guy 62 so it's difficult for me to sleep in the bomb shelter and after that

I would not be able to to continue to work and i'm continuing to i'm on informational front as you guess so that's why uh that's why i'm staying at home and oh please don't tell my mom that i'm staying at home because I am telling I am telling to her that when the bombing is starting, I always I go every day, you know, to the bomb shelter and then coming back. So I'm lying. We'll keep that secret for you. So keep this secret, please. We'll keep the secret. My daughter was her boyfriend.

So they are going to bomb shelter regularly. Well, the other thing for you to remember is 62 isn't old, Alexei. That's just a number. No, yeah. I mean, if we are talking about my feelings, my heart, definitely I am young. I am continue struggling but I mean you know that 8 years ago I was at the front line

in Donbass and I was in Donetsk airport and in winter minus 20 degrees and we were sleeping outside in the how to call it dugout in the trenches at to call it, in the dugout, in the trenches.

Right. At that time, I could do that. Now, for me, it would be difficult, you know. Well, let's hope it doesn't get to that. Alexei, thank you so much for talking to us again. Thank you for Canadian solidarity with us. Really important. It certainly is.

All right. Take care. Sure. Take care Really important. It certainly is. All right. Take care. Sure. Take care. Bye. We shall overcome. We shall overcome. And when you hear it from Alasky Aaron,

you tend to believe him, right? He's quite the guy. And when you think of it, try to imagine yourself in that situation as he and his family have been for the last almost three weeks now and yet uh you know he's anxious to talk about it so the world understands what they're going through uh he does still have his sense of humor as you can tell um but it's it's difficult

and um and it's exhausting. And just listening to him, because I think we can all imagine to a degree that moment when he describes how difficult it is to fall asleep. You know, I think some of us had that through the early stages of the pandemic because we just didn't know what was coming at us. And we were worried. And we worried a lot. And it affected sleep patterns. Well, imagine what he's going through and what the people of Ukraine are going through.

So I thank him, as always, for his attempt to share what's going on with us. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, our regular Monday COVID update. It's short. Short. Not sweet. But it's short.

When we come back. all right then peter manspur here in stratford ontario welcome back to uh the bridge for this monday you're listening on sirius xm channel, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. We welcome you to the program. Alright, as regular listeners know, for two years we've always done a Monday update of some situation or some sort of on the COVID story and we've checked in with our team of epidemiologists in different parts of the country to give us their sense of where things stand. And we're going to do that again today.

Who's today's choice? Well, today's choice is Dr. Lenora Saxinger from the University of Alberta. She's in Edmonton. So let's, as I said, this is a quick one, but let's listen in and see what Dr. Saxinger has to tell us today. So Albertans, like people in many parts of the country, are learning now to live without some of the restrictions. What's your sense of things so far far and how comfortable are you with it you know it's interesting i think that uh what i see here is similar to what i understand is

help like happening elsewhere and that a lot of the people who have been you know maintaining their protective behaviors pretty consistently since the beginning are continuing to do so and so if i go out i'm still seeing at least where I'm going, which isn't that many places, honestly, a lot of people masking. It's become optional in a lot of settings and a lot of people are taking that option. I'm hearing a little bit from people who get questioned for wearing masks, but I think that, you know, those,

those anecdotes are fairly few and far between. So I think people are to some extent kind of coming out at their own pace a fair amount. And there are quite a few people, I think, are concerned that public health protections are kind of coming off a little quickly with all the uncertainties that we're facing right now. How about you? Are you concerned about that? Honestly, yes. I mean, I think over the course of the pandemic, I have really appreciated or come to appreciate that the virus and its evolution has this element of unpredictability to it. And that I think it's premature to call things over while we have the kind of activity that we're seeing and so you know of the possible futures yes we could continue to see a slow decline in case numbers and that things could actually very well remain quite quiet for the summer at least um but on the

other hand looking at data from elsewhere which even though you can't compare places i always do anyway um there's, you know, basically exit surges happening in a lot of places and a lot of evolving questions as to whether or not the surges that we're seeing are actually accompanied by a lot more clinical illness, or if it's like a numbers situation where we're not seeing the healthcare impact as much. And so, you know, it's a pretty unsettled time on the pandemic side. And, and so I would always have kind of preferred a stepwise approach, honestly. What do you, what do you say to people ask for your advice on what they should do that they're, you know, they're open-minded,

they see what's going on in terms of certain changes on the restrictions list and more to come. And they say, doctor, what should I do? What do you say? I mean, I think that the same advice, which has been remarkably consistent for me for the entire time has been, you know, just really giving a bit of thought to discretionary activities. You know, what's the, what's the highest yield activity that you do where you're contacting a different network of people, and think critically about the things you're choosing to do still,

because there's a lot of Omicron out there. So, thinking about your networks, thinking about your number of contacts, continuing to mask, especially indoors, especially in a network that you haven't really been in, are all things that I think are not that hard because we actually already have been doing them. So I think a lot of people probably would do well just to more or less continue running things the way they've been running. And then in a very gradual way, kind of because we're going to be learning as we go, the numbers will announce themselves more clearly, decide that if things are staying pretty settled, and it seems to be okay, and you're triple dose vaccinated, plus or minus infected, that you slowly broaden out your activities. I think the other thing that

is kind of missing a little bit for a lot of people is I'm still not sure how many people fully appreciate how important that third dose is. And I really wish the messaging around that was much clearer, because looking at the data, it makes a tremendous difference. Because Omicron is pretty able to punch through two doses. And, you know, it still can actually break through three doses, but much less frequently. And so it's just, you know, tuning up your own protections as much as possible and continuing to be thoughtful about what you're doing. It is a bit of a puzzle why that third dose number has lagged behind. I mean, the first and second dosages right across Canada, really impressive.

Third dosage, you know, not so much. And it is, you know, it's not like the message hasn't been out there. So I'm not quite sure what the problem is. Yeah, I mean, because people who had the first two doses have had experience with it. It's been, you know, for the vast, vast majority safe. And I'm not sure why either because you know it's not an anti-vaccination stance but there there has been a real lag in uptake and the shape of that will impact the numbers that we're going to be seeing over the next weeks to months and and it will make a big deal in the health care system and so I really think honing in on that a part of it almost makes me wonder if the earlier messaging around the two dose goal

everyone's got to get their two doses using the word fully vaccinated for two doses i wonder if that just kind of took root a little bit more uh solidly and that we're not really displacing it as much because a lot of people i don't know if they're paying as much attention i think um and now that all the visual reminders are optional like the masking I think that maybe more people than I would hope are not seeing the pandemic as being a big issue anymore and that could be part of it too I mean like I know I do I'm an infectious disease doc but I think that there might be a lot of people who who it is actually receding um in terms of attention and there's lots of other things in the world to pay attention to um but yeah we have to get that messaging um

much clearer and when you look at places that are having damaging surges right now that's the best public health intervention that they have is is getting the third dose vaccination rate up or making sure that everyone's had, you know, the best currently available vaccines, which is a problem in some places as well. The next big challenge, and this is my final question for this week, the next big challenge, and it's starting to happen in a number of different places, is back to work. I mean, some of the big, you know, the big organizations, big companies, both private and public sector are saying, okay, it's time to come back in. So coming back in is going to be a challenge.

And I'm wondering what your advice is to those employees who are being told, okay, you're going to have to come back now, even if it's just for two days or three days a week. What's the best advice you can give? Well, I mean, the same thing about maximizing your personal protection. So make sure you've got your shields up through maximal vaccination for eligibility. And then, you know, I actually think contextualizing risk is important for a lot of people. If they're going into a highly vaccinated workspace that actually has the ability to take other measures like no ventilation optimization, making sure that you're not crammed in like sardines and not sharing airspace. It probably is not an unreasonable thing to do.

But, you know, those extra things that can be done, such as very rigorous symptom screening, potentially adding in some rapid testing, those things are all worthwhile still. And so I think people are almost getting so tired of it, it's almost like nihilistic. But honestly, every single layer that you can add actually does improve the safety of a workspace. And there's actually data on that,aces workplaces that have a bundle of interventions do do better and um and so and so attention to those details and you know putting the most important ones first is something that will make a difference for people who have to go back to work and actually making sure there's i think open communication um with with your colleagues at work and with the management at work about how to optimize things and how to handle things if it's changing again.

Because let's all acknowledge right now that the rules and the recommendations are going to continue to change. Like, you know, I don't even want to put a number on fully vaccinated anymore. I think it's going to keep changing. I think we're going to learn more about which of the measures that we can take actually are the highest impact for effort. And so we might see some refinement of the recommendations that we make for managing personal risk and risk in spaces. And so just to kind of stay light on your feet in terms of the planning as well.

But, you know, when things are evolving in a way I'm not certain of, I tend to err on the side of, you know, taking the precautions. And I think it's worth doing that. I really do. And let's hope that many of these organizations have also upped their game on their own workspace in terms of, you know, cleaner air, what have you. And there's a clear message out there in terms of what they want the masking policy to be inside. Listen, Dr. Saxinger, we really appreciate your time as always. Thanks so much for this.

It's always nice to talk to you. Thank you. Dr. Lenora Saxinger in Edmonton, University of Alberta. Great to talk to her, as it always is on Mondays, talking to any of our epidemiologists who have been working with us. That's going to wrap it up for this day. A varied program, as will be the rest of the week. Tomorrow, Brian Stewart joins us. to wrap it up for this day um a varied program as will be the rest of the week tomorrow brian

stewart joins us he's a regular now on tuesdays during our coverage of uh the ukraine war giving us a sense of perhaps what we're not noticing about what's happening or some background to some of the things that are happening to give us a better understanding of why they're happening uh wednesday of course bruce uh and Anderson will be by with Smoke Mirrors and the Truth. Thursday's your turn. Friday is Good Talk with Chantal Hebert and Bruce. We'll talk to you tomorrow

in 24 hours. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening. Bye for now. Thank you.