The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Trudeau in Ukraine As The War Goes On.

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

The parade of international celebrities continues into Ukraine as the war continues.  The Bridge reaches out to leading Ukrainian academic Olexiy Haran for his take on just what's happening.  Also, an old recording shows why FDR "hated war".

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. The parade of international celebrities heading into Kiev continued yesterday, but so does the war. And hello there, welcome to another week of The Bridge. I'm Peter Mansbridge in Stratford, Ontario. Well, it's been quite a scene in Kiev, in the Ukraine, in the last few weeks, as almost daily some new internationally known person arrives to give moral support to the fight by Ukrainians against the Russian invasion. And yesterday was perhaps the busiest day possible in terms of those international celebrities, if you will, arriving. So who came in? Well, on the border, one of those small communities inside Ukraine, Jill Biden, the wife of the President of the United States, arrived, the First Lady of the U.S. Now, that's kind of unprecedented. You go back in the history books to try and

find a first lady who went into a war zone. It's difficult finding that. But there was Jill Biden yesterday, not with her husband. She was on her own. Well, plus massive security. But there she was in Kiev at a downtown subway station. Who's playing music, hooked up, doing a kind of impromptu concert? Bono and the Edge from U2. And then down the street at the Canadian embassy, which has been closed since February, there was Justin Trudeau, Chrystia Freeland, Melanie Jolie,

raising the Canadian flag and saying, the embassy is now reopening. So he had those three things at least all happening yesterday. And all indications that the rest of the world was far from abandoning Ukraine in their hour of need. It was there again, as it has been many times in the last few weeks by many other world leaders and international celebrities. Sean Penn,

Angelina Jolie. You know, there have been a lot who have been in and out of Kyiv and Ukraine. Boris Johnson. You know, the list goes on. So Trudeau, not the first Western name to head into Ukraine, but far from the last either. I mean, what many people are waiting for and expecting is an arrival by Joe Biden, the President of the United States. Now that arrival, that trip, will be tricky because of security and the way the Americans travel with their president. I mean, they have massive security.

I've talked about this before. You know, more than 100 cars and security vehicles following the president wherever he goes. I've always compared it to a British Prime Minister who are really, they're pretty careful about security, the Brits. But when you watch their Prime Ministers travel around, whether it was Boris Johnson or Theresa May before him or David Cameron before her, when I watch them just moving about in London,

going from 10 Downing Street to the Buckingham Palace or to Westminster, it was usually only two or three cars that followed the main car. But not the Americans. They don't fool around. They go heavy. They're not alone. The Russians do the same thing. I remember being in Sochi when Putin was there,

and he had a huge motorcade following him as well, security vehicles and et cetera, et cetera. But there's a lot of expectation around when Joe Biden will go to Kiev. I imagine it'll be soon. Well, it's one thing to hear from the international politicians and the international celebrities about their take on what's happening in Ukraine and specifically in Kyiv, the capital. But we've been lucky here on the bridge since the very first weekend. We've been connecting with Alexei Haran. And Alexei is a professor of collaborative politics at the University of Kyiv Mohyla Academy. We talked to him, as I said, that first weekend and a couple of weeks later. at the University of Kyiv Mohyla Academy.

We talked to him, as I said, that first weekend, then a couple of weeks later, and now we're going back again. He's been in Kyiv the whole time. When the city was under bombardment, still is to a degree. He's a veteran of this conflict with Russia. He fought in the Donbass region in 2014. A little older now and has chosen instead to stay in Kiev and keep teaching his students, which he's been doing online. But I reached out yesterday to talk to Alexei to get a sense from him as to what the state of the situation is in Ukraine and in Kyiv in particular right now.

So let's have that conversation. Alexei, the last time we spoke, it's got to be six weeks ago now. Since then, a lot of things have happened, but I want to start with getting a sense from you as to your own situation in terms of the fact you're still in Kyiv and how safe do you feel? Because Kyiv, in fact, has been bombed a number of times in these last six weeks. Yeah, that's correct. So we hear the sirens almost every day. Sometimes there are blasts. Sometimes there are Russian missiles which are intercepted and we hear the blasts.

It's occasionally. Definitely nobody feels like being totally safe in this situation. So people, especially for these days, May 8 and 9, which are the victory day over Nazi Germany, and Putin is using it for its own purpose. So we are afraid that there could be a shelling on this day of Kiev and other cities of Ukraine, and

Putin is doing it. But compared to six weeks ago, definitely the life in Kiev is almost well, almost is looking much more normal.

So we still have a curfew, but it's limited by night. So there is enough food, there is electricity. Well, compared to what we saw in other cities, definitely it's much, much better. So, Kyiv is coming to normal life. But if you are talking about my personal situation, for example, my older daughter, she was in Kyiv all the time and she is in Kiev my younger daughter and actually today is her 25th

anniversary so she was bombed here in Kiev she was evacuated to Lviv she was

bombed there finally she went to Warsaw so she is safe but she has a post

traumatic syndrome so and she she is visiting so she's safe but she has a post-traumatic syndrome and she's visiting a doctor so that's not easy I'm sure it's not easy and it must be fair

actually two days ago my older daughter and I we were volunteering and we went to the city of Chermik, north of Kiev, the city which was heavily bombed. We saw the destruction there. It's incredible. I mean, the center of the city, the outskirts of the city, people who lost their houses, who lost everything. You know, it's very, very tough. And at the same time, we saw how volunteers are working, how people are sacrificing themselves to help other people. Well, when you see that kind of destruction and the fallout from the bombing and the missile

attacks, cases of PTSD must be, well, not common, but there must be a lot of those kind of cases like your daughter is suffering from. Look, in general, definitely, war is a stress for all of us for all of us you know even if if we are not on the front line and we are not evacuated but it's definitely very very stressful and i will tell you that it's also stressful for those people who are here in Kyiv who are not on the front line because for them it's also difficult

to live while somebody is fighting for us at the front line risking his life I'm here I'm to teach my students we have our seminars online and I always have this in mind. Well, I'm teaching my students.

I'm giving them home tasks. I'm checking. We are discussing things. But there is a war, and other people at the front line, you know, they're risking their lives. But the explanation is that everybody is doing what we can. And that's the difference also between Ukrainian society and Russian society. Russian society is zombied. And we Ukrainians, we are trying to give a good education to our students to teach them to think critically and to be real patriots and also to be real Democrats, to respect others' views. Now, I recognize that you're all of the above. You're a patriot.

You're a Democrat. You recognize other people's views. And you're realistic. And I'm wondering, given all those qualities, when you look now nine weeks after this started, when you look at the state of the conflict, how would you assess it? What would you say is the description of where we are in this moment? On the one hand, I have to repeat what I said maybe two, three days after the beginning of war.

So Putin lost. It was clear after the third or fourth day of the war because he didn't crush Ukraine. He didn't crush Ukrainian government. Ukrainians united. Ukraine has the support throughout the world. Russia is isolated. So Russia is on a downward track.

That's clear. As for Ukraine, we are moving forward. And it's pretty sure that we will become a normal European European nation part of the United Europe. But the question is we are paying heavy cost for that. And Putin is not stopping. We know that Putin changed his initial idea. He understood he cannot get Kiev. So he decided to concentrate in the Donbass and in the south. He wanted to have some real victories in order to declare it for May 9.

Definitely tomorrow he will boast that he is fighting with non-democratic Ukrainians he's defending Russian speakers and all this stuff but actually he didn't get even military victories in the Donbass and in the south as well of Ukraine nevertheless

the war continues we think that we are able to win and to liberate the occupied areas, but the cost of that is huge, and definitely we cannot do it without support from the international community. And I mean military support, arms, I mean sanctions against Russia, I mean economic support because Putin actually is destroying economic base of Ukraine, infrastructure of Ukraine. So we need to rebuild the country and we need huge support from international community I don't have any doubts that this

support is coming and will continue to come but you know it's tough and again we are dreaming of liberation of our occupied territories but we understand that our people will be dying to liberate these territories. So this is not easy. When we see the images, the pictures from the various cities and communities that have been virtually destroyed by the Russian invasion, I can understand why you're saying it's going to cost a lot to rebuild. It's going to cost tens, if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

But you're confident that the rest of the world, as it has on the military assistance side, you're confident that the rest of the world will support Ukraine in its building efforts when it gets to that stage? I'm confident right now, yes. Because, again, during the first days it wasn't very clear because we heard it from some Western politicians that Ukraine would lose in three days. It's not necessary to arm Ukraine, Ukrainian army. But because Ukrainian army is fighting and fighting effectively and people are fighting, so the support increased from the West and there is a change of mood. So, yes, I am sure this support will continue,

but definitely we know that, you know, Western society and Western politics is complicated. It's also populist. And now it's time to introduce the oil embargo on Russia. And we know that the EU prepared this package and it seems that it will be approved, but with certain exceptions regarding such, for example, Hungary.

So they will have a time to prepare for this oil embargo. So there are some politicians, populist politicians, who are still saying, well, it's not worthwhile to continue, so let's have some agreement, let's care with Russia, let's do not increase sanctions, oil embargo will be painful for us as well. So we hear this kind of talk and we know that some of the Western public may buy it. But I think that overwhelming majority of the Western society and of the Western politicians, now they understand that we are fighting here in Ukraine, not only for freedom of Ukraine, but for the freedom of Europe.

That's for sure. Actually, we Ukrainians, we were trying to explain to the West since 2014 that we are fighting for Europe. And well, Europeans actually didn't buy it. Well, some scholars, analysts, politicians, you know, they were confirming it, but not the majority. I think now majority understand it. Even in Germany, you see the

change. The change of the views. It's been quite remarkable to watch, especially Europe, and the way in some countries the views have changed on that. But look, again, let me, excuse me, because you said

that I'm realist. Yes, I'm realist. So it's good that Madame Le Pen didn't win elections, okay? So we have Macron who understands the necessity to continue fight with Putin. But

there are chances for the United Left in France to win the parliamentary elections. And we don't know if it happens, what would be the position of this leftist government in France. So, well, you know, it's always difficult. It's always difficult to be a democratic country. It's difficult to predict how it will develop, you know.

But in any case, and for short time purpose, you know, the dictatorships, they may exploit these weaknesses of democracies. But in the long run, we know that democracies are winning. Well, you remember what Churchill always used to say, which was that there are weaknesses in democracy and things that don't work well in democracy, but it's still, in his view, the best form of government um let me move back to something you said earlier which uh surprised me in a little bit i and i guess some people would be surprised when you suggested that for the most part things you know there's there's a kind of normalcy in life in kiev in the sense that, you know, there are food supplies and the people aren't running short of any particular commodity right now. How is that working?

And is that just a thing about Kyiv or is that fairly typical of many of the communities in the western half of the country? Well, it's typical well actually I don't know, well look, we have difficulties definitely, you know when Kiev

was shelled, when there was a curfew for example during the whole weekend, there were problems with supply of food. Yes, there were problems, definitely. The transport didn't work. Now it's more or less okay. Still there's a limit for example, subway closes at 8pm.

It closes at 8pm because 10pm is a curfew time. It's not easy to get to different parts of Kyiv because of timetable. But nevertheless, look, we know with what to compare, with what to compare, and we know what happened in other cities. Look, from my trip to Chernihiv, what can I say?

You see these distractions, you see in some places yes where you see several buildings several streets are distracted and people are staying in line to get some basics and they need it because they lost everything

and at the same time in the city you have supermarket which supermarket which works. Okay, so you can go there and to buy and to buy food. And well, actually it's good for volunteers. So you're going to one part of the city. It's kind of, how to say it, it's kind of a very peculiar situation like in a fantastic movie. So here, total destruction.

Then you see the blocks with normal life. Then again, total destruction. Well, for volunteers, it's like, you know, you go to the place, you see what are the moods. In 10 minutes, you can go to the other part of the city where you have working supermarkets and buy this food and then bring it back to the community, which is destroyed. But definitely, this is not the case like in Mariupol or in Bucha or other places that Chernihiv wasn't under occupation. And there were cities which were under occupation and which were totally disrupted by Russians.

Now, the last point. When we talked, I guess about two weeks after the war started, I asked you, because there were negotiations going on in Turkey and in other places between Russians and Ukrainians, and I asked you how much faith you put in those negotiations, and you said none, that you thought it was all phony, that nothing would come of it because the Russians weren't serious. Well, there are certain negotiations still being carried on at some level here

a couple of months later. Has your view changed at all on negotiations? Do you think there's any chance they can lead to an end to this? Look, when we were talking first time, Russia wanted to, Russia was pretty sure that it is able to impose its views on Ukraine and actually to get diplomatically what it cannot get on the military front. So now after two months of the war, we see that the more Ukrainian army is fighting Russians,

the more other losses of Russians, the more Western support we get, the more chances, there are more chances for negotiated peace settlement. So, but I don't, actually, I think

so, I think that at some point there could be some peace settlement, and there should be. But the question, again, is, first of all, Putin still wants to reach some military successes, to seize more Ukrainian territory. And while Ukrainian position is that Russia is to withdraw to the line which existed before February 24th. So it's still difficult, you know, it's still difficult to imagine how it can be combined.

And what we have now is actually the war of attrition, because what Putin is doing, he's trying to destroy the Ukrainian economy, infrastructure, and even to prevent supply of Western weapons to Ukraine. Not only weapons, but also we need oil, we need material support. So a lot actually depends on that. So if Ukraine and the international community

are able to keep these lines of communication and to have this logistics necessary for a continuation of the war. In this case, we will increase our chances to end

the war rather soon as in late. Well, I hope that possibility exists. Professor, you know, it's always

informative for us to be able to talk to you and understand what it must be like there,

and this has been one of those conversations, so I really appreciate

your time. We will talk to you again, and in the meantime... Thank you. Thank you

very much. Canadians, stand up with Ukraine and they are stay safe Slava Ukraine Alexei Harin talking to us from Kiev and it's good to hear from him again because

I know many of you had asked me in the last month or so, whatever happened to that professor in Kiev? Why haven't you had a chance to talk to him again lately? Well, we made good on that today because we did want to reach out to him.

It's been a difficult time, especially with Lexi's family and the situation in Kiev, and getting this opportunity today for a lengthy conversation of 20 minutes or so to get a sense of what it's really like there on the ground in Kyiv was something we genuinely have a deep appreciation for and glad we're able to have that conversation. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, two other small points on Ukraine

before we wrap it up for this day. But first of all, this break. And welcome back. Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. You're listening to The Bridge on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. Two things, two short things about the Ukraine war. The BBC has just completed an investigation on some of the so-called charities that are raising money to help the situation in Ukraine. And the BBC has found that hundreds of them are fake websites. Now, to a degree, I don't think that'll surprise anybody. We know the kind of world we live in right now where there are all kinds of scams going on, but finding hundreds of fake charity websites and the money that's going to them is really

depressing. The BBC concludes that these fake sites have used the branding of charities such as Save the Children and, you know, kind of grabbed their kind of things that a legitimate organization like Save the Children does and tries to use it on their fake ones. Some scammers have even pretended to be getting equipment to soldiers on the front line. One charity boss called the practice awful, said it was taking money from children in need around the world. One quick example, the investigation identified a bogus site calling itself Save Life Direct, which claimed to have raised $100,000. That it was registered to a man based in Nigeria. When he was traced and contacted by the BBC, he initially claimed he was sending donations to a friend in western Ukraine.

Later he admitted he hadn't raised $100,000 at all. He said he would provide proof the site was real, but he didn't, and the following day, the website was taken down. So, you know the old saying, buyer beware? Well, on this one, it's donator beware. Keep that in mind. When you're looking for a legitimate way that you personally can help. Make sure you're not being scammed. That is the world we live in right now. A lot of scamming going on out there. Now, here's the other thing. The U.S. Library of Congress each year

registers certain recordings. They could be anything. They could be a song, big hit from a rock star, or could be a speech, could be a live event. And this year is no exception. They've detailed a number of new recordings that are going into their official registry. And I found one of them really interesting in light of what we are witnessing in the world today, in light of war. And this recording is short, it's less than a minute long. And it's a speech that was given in 1936 by FDR, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the U.S. president. It was the summer of 36. So I guess they were in the election campaign at that time. But FDR wanted to talk about war and the consequences of war. Remember, the world was not at war at that moment. But he'd seen war.

You know, he'd been the, I think, the assistant secretary of the Navy during the First World War. So he'd seen the consequences of war. And he wanted to talk about that. You know, we all know his most famous speech, perhaps, was the Day of Infamy speech after Pearl Harbor. But this was different, and you don't hear it repeated often. And so I thought, let's grab that recording. And we did. From August 14th, 1936, he was in Chautauqua, New York. It was a real anti-war speech. So here it is, FDR, 1936. I have seen war.

I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen men coughing out their gassed lungs. I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen 200 limping, exhausted men come out of line, the survivors of a regiment of 1,000 that went forward 48 hours before. I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives. I hate war. FDR, speaking in Chautauqua, New York, in August of 1936.

And you listen to those words, you listen to them carefully, about what he saw. And, you know, some of those images we're seeing again, such as war, such as the horrific side of war, that we're seeing those images even now, all these years later. All right, we're going to wrap it up for this day. Tomorrow, The Bridge will be back on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. We're here all week. And let's hope you're here with us. Lots to talk about, as always. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening to The Bridge today.

We'll be back in 24 hours.