The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - What Are We Missing? -- Janice Stein's Take On Our World

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

She's back! The Munk School's founding director joins for her regular look at those parts of the world we should keep an eye on.  Among those for discussion today:  Northern Ireland, Finland, France, Israel and Mali. Also today, who is Flight Sgt Peter Brown and why is his story one you won't forget. And one more thing, this time about The Beatles. 

And hello there, Peter Vansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. What are we missing? That's right, it's Janice Stein's regular contribution to looking at the countries that we're not talking about that perhaps we should be talking about. And I've got a story for you you won't soon forget, right after this. And hello there. And first of all, yes, curlers, I was aware of the world championships that were going on over the last week.

I was trying to keep in touch with the scores. I know it was a kind of rough start for Brad Gushu, Canada's entry from Newfoundland. I've met Brad before. Great curler. Great person. Had a rough going in the regular part of the competition. But, man, he was great in the playoffs until the final game, the gold medal game. Brad ended up with the silver, nothing to sneeze at.

I'm sure they would have preferred the gold, but nevertheless, they have the silver, and guess who's got the gold? Scotland. Scotland, where I am. On this week. Okay, there's my nod to curling. Don't want to upset those curling fans out there.

I was watching. A little tricky, given the hour difference, but nevertheless. Okay, Janice Stein is coming up, and I know many of you really look forward to Janice's contribution to the bridge and especially this little session that we have roughly once a month, once every five or six weeks. Janice joins the program and talks about what we're missing. attention is placed on whether it's Ukraine, Russia, China, the situation, continuing situation in the States, and of course, the situation in Canada, that we tend to miss a lot of stories. And she's talking to us today in her latest installment of What Are We Missing? So I'm looking forward to having that chat as I always look forward to talking with Janice. Okay, let's get at it then. to having that chat as I always look forward to talking with Janice. Okay.

Let's get at it then. This is the story I was kind of flagging in the opening, a story you won't soon forget, nor should you. It's a story about a fellow by the name of Peter Brown. Peter passed away in December. He was 96. He was living in a little town just outside of London, England. Died alone.

And those who were responsible for his care thought, this is not right. We have to find what Peter's story is, and we have to find family if we can. And so they started talking about Peter Brown. Turns out Peter Brown was from Jamaica. He was a flight sergeant in the RAF, the Royal Air Force. He was a veteran of the Second World War.

He was one of the last living black soldiers, airmen, from the Second World War. He was part of a group called Pilots of the Caribbean. Now, Peter himself wasn't a pilot. He was an air gunner and a wireless radio operator, but he flew on, among other planes, Lancaster bombers. He was based at RAF Scampton, which, if you recall that name, was the base for a number of squadrons. My dad was based at Scampton in Lincolnshire,

but it was most famous for the Dam Busters. They were based at Scampton. Peter was trained, as so many RAF personnel were trained in the Commonwealth Air Training Plan, which included time in Canada, where he trained to do his thing. He was one of just 12 who joined together and offered their services from Jamaica to the RAF. Twelve at that time. Overall, from the Caribbean, there were, I think, about 10,000 residents of the Caribbean who served in the British Armed Forces

during the Second World War. But Peter's story had sort of, you know, he stayed in the RAF for a little while after the end of the war. But as he grew older, he grew more alone, distant from family. And as I said, he died alone in December. So as people tried to determine what to do for Peter Brown, it seemed wrong that he just be buried with no one there at the service. And so they started talking about it and trying to find connections to family or friends.

And as a result of the publicity, more and more people started to take interest in Peter Brown's story, to the point where thousands of people wanted to go to the funeral. It was to take place in March, but it's had to be moved. It's now in May, and it's going to be held at the famous, old St. Clement Danes, the RAF Central Church in Westminster. They've set aside hundreds and hundreds of seats for the public and hundreds of seats for officials who want to be there,

including some of the highest officers in the RAF. They want to make sure, as they say, that Flight Sergeant Brown receives a dignified send-off worthy of his life story. So here is a guy who dies alone after a long life, a distinguished career, and could have just been a footnote at best

in some obituary page in a local paper in a little town outside of London. But no, that's not what's going to happen here. What's going to happen is it's almost a national funeral service in one of the most historic churches in the country. Because people have responded. And they've said, that wasn't right, how he died.

Now sadly, a lot of people die that way. And there is no huge public response. But there was in this case. And Peter Brown will be remembered by a lot of people. And apparently they're coming from different parts of the world. The story has received recognition in different parts of the world. So I wanted to share that with you. It's made a bit of news around here in the UK.

I was going to save it till Remembrance Day because I always like to tell a story around Remembrance Day. But no. It's too important right now, and it's been great watching, basically, a country rally around this man, his service, and the distinguishing factor about where he came from, where he was trained, and where he flew. So there's your story of Flight Sergeant Peter Brown. Okay, quick break. Then when we come back, Janice Stein.

And welcome back. You're listening to The Bridge, the Monday episode on Sirius XM, Channel 167. Canada Talks are on your favorite podcast platform. Glad you're with us. Hope you had a good weekend. Easter weekend. And in some parts of the country, today's a holiday. Other parts, it's not.

Never quite figured out how that happens. You know, the country gets into this kind of chopped up series of different jurisdictions. And anyway, some parts of the country have a holiday today, other parts don't. Janice Stein, Munk School of Public Policy, Global Affairs, International Discussions. Janice is one of the founding directors of the Munk School.

She's been a good friend and a colleague of mine for 40 years now. And what's amazing about Janice is you can sort of look at the big map of the world and go, what's happening there? Point to some obscure country and bang, off she rattles. Exactly what's going on there. So it's always great to listen to Janice and to learn from Janice, as we will do again today. At the beginning of this year, we were talking about,

what do you think we could do something in a kind of semi-regular way? And we came up with this idea of what are we missing, especially at that time with so much attention placed on Ukraine. There were a lot of other stories that were happening. And some of these stories today you will probably have heard about a little bit. We just go into a little more detail here. Because our world is a complicated place. and Janice helps break that down. So let's get her started. Here we go. The latest conversation on what are we missing

with Janice Stein. You know we're coming up on 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland and for a lot of people they assumed that that meant the troubles were over. But of late, there's concern. MI5 now predicting attacks in Northern Ireland as a result of the upcoming visit from Joe Biden, and Charles is planning to visit. What's going on? You're right, Peter, that after 25 years, people thought, okay, here's one success story. The troubles are over, and there are not many. So this is regarded really as a shining example of what can be done. Two things have destabilized a little bit. I'm not as alarmed

as MI5 is, frankly, about this. We'll see who's right, MI5 or me. Let's just tell our listeners what the MI5 prediction is. It is for attacks during the Easter Monday parade, which commemorates the original Irish uprising against the British Empire. And that's a parade of unionists. And they are expecting, in fact, that there will be a tax. Well, I think that when you get a very specific prediction like that, there are ways of looking after that. So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's not going to be as bad as MI5 thinks. But what really is destabilizing this? The prime minister of Britain made a deal on that thorny issue of where the border should be.

Was there going to be a hard border or a soft border? And he did what no prior prime minister has been able to do since Brexit, put together a kind of messy, muddy agreement that goods coming in from the European Union would go and out, would go through customs checks, but goods being traded within the United Kingdom would not. In other words, a two-lane solution. What that really does is no hard border,

which, of course, those who want close relations with Ireland, the Catholic population largely, are cheering. Nobody wanted a hard border. But some of the unionists who oppose any movement at all still toward close relationships with Ireland are upset about. How do we know they're upset? Well, first of all, they make their views known. But there was an incident last week in which a detective was killed. One of the few incidents appeared to be politically motivated. Even that's a little muddy here so i i think uh yes people have to pay attention to the losers uh in the agreement uh but the good friday agreements are

going to hold okay um let's move on uh not far uh yeah you you You've studied over time independence movements in a number of different places in the world, including our own in Canada and the Quebec situation. And you studied here in Scotland in terms of the independence movement in this country. Now, you know, there was a referendum here not that long ago, and it was pretty close. And the assumption was there'd be another one in a relatively short period of time. Now, that assumption is gone, as has Nicola Sturgeon, the former prime minister, gone. What has happened in Scotland to kind of make it look like the referendum, at least for the time being, that whole issue has passed? It's a fascinating question. And there were the holy three, right? Quebec independence,

Catalan independence, and Scottish independence, that for a period of time, it really looked like there was momentum behind all three. And amazingly, Peter, none of the three has any momentum right now. So again, that's another good news story for today, that democratic societies somehow are elastic enough to absorb these kinds of pressures and find a way out. Look, I think Nicola Sturgeon was the face of Scottish independence for so many. She was its most successful political leader. You know, not unlike Renée Lévesque, for instance, in Canada. She just embodied, built a powerful movement behind it,

was relentless in saying she was going to go after it. It got wind in her sails from Brexit, because that is not what people in Scotland wanted at all. So that should have provided rocket fuel, really. She made an astounding statement when she left, not dissimilar to what Chakinda Adorn said in New Zealand. I'm exhausted. I just can't do this anymore. I don't have any more gas in the tank. And that, I think, sucked the oxygen for now, this movement, its most passionate leader. She was replaced by a very interesting leader, Humza Yousaf, the first Muslim leader in the United Kingdom, really.

And there's none in large parts of Europe yet. And by the way, just as I said, they're doing something, the Brits. We have a Hindu prime minister and a Muslim leader. And they're all conservatives, by the way. That's worthwhile noting. So what are those Tories doing? Right? You have to stop.

What are they doing that the rest of us are not? They're not talking a lot about it. They're just doing it. They're just doing it. And it goes beyond those two prime ministers. It's, you know, the mayor of London is Indo-Asian as well. That's right. Not quite a conservative, I don't think, but nevertheless, he, you know, it's an interesting leadership triumvirate those three anyway uh in the uk there are the other leaders in wales and uh and um northern ireland but nevertheless uh it's an interesting look just one last thing on the scottish situation is you know we both learned with the quebec story story over a number of years that it goes away, but it never really goes away.

You know, it was always sort of there. And it'll be interesting to see how this plays out in Scotland because there are other issues here right now. They're trying to live in a post-Brexit, post-pandemic world and there are difficult economic issues. And the last thing some people want to talk about is independence as it relates to that. Plus, when Nicola Sturgeon left, ever since the day she left

and the no gas left in the tank comment, there have been other issues about what was in the tank. And they surround her husband more about the finances of the SNP, the, the, the, her, her party. So that one, that's still yet to play itself out. But you know, it's interesting, Peter, because Yusuf when he took over, you know, made two comments that for any Canadian, we've seen this movie before. The first comment was no, no, no.

The next election is not a referendum. No, no, no, no, the next election is not a referendum. No, no, no, no, no. Don't worry about it. The next election is just the next election. It's not a referendum. We've been there before in Canada. And the other one was, and surprisingly coming from him, 51% is not enough. Now, in Canada, that came from the federal government.

But here's the leader of the Scottish National Party saying, you know, right, 51% is not enough. That's too slim a majority. So, the brakes are being put on regardless of the fact that he markets himself as the continuity candidate here. Okay, let's look across the english channel uh at france because france is going through difficult times i mean the the scenes in the streets of paris are you know reminiscent of what it was like in you know in the late 60s when they with the rioting going on i mean they've never been shy about riots in paris boy do they know how to do it they sure do and they've sure been doing it of late.

So it was almost strange to see last week with Paris burning, and that's a bit of an exaggeration, but with Paris in trouble, where's Macron? He's in Beijing trying to tell the Chinese what to do, especially on the issue of Ukraine. What's your thoughts on what's happening in France and how Macron is handling it? You know, Macron reminds me, I can't help this,

de Gaulle. You know, he's imperial. Know it all, on high, right? Above the fray always. I will tell you what to do and you shall listen. I mean, that frankly is Macron. And when Paris is up in arms over pension reform, and let's come back to that later,

he goes to Beijing and not only is he telling Xi Jinping what to do, he's frankly telling Joe Biden what to do. He's really saying we are not going to decouple. We are not on board for disengagement with China. China is too important to the world. It's too important as a market for Europe. And anyway, we Europeans, he's never given up on this. We want strategic autonomy from the United States.

That's been the consistent theme of his presidency. Boy, did Xi Jinping get the message? Rolled out the red carpet, you know, six hours, a trip to his father's ancestral home with him. Probably the warmest reception that's been given to any Western leader. And what did Macron get for it on Ukraine? Nothing, really. Very, very minimal statements, not much further than Xi Jinping got before.

But he got an Airbus contract, right? That he did. And he traveled with 50 business people, not dissimilar from what Schultz did when he went to Beijing. So if I'm in the White House, I am looking at my close allies in Germany and France, And I am saying they are not on board for U.S. strategy towards China. Interesting question for Canada, Peter. Where are we? Because there's room. This is not a united alliance. You know, at home, Macron did the same thing.

He knows, and I actually think he's right, that you had to move up the age of retirement in an aging population. The economic consequences are huge. You let people retire at 62, but he ran slam dunk into French sense of what the good life is. And the good life starts when you stop work. That's very, very French. And how did he get it through? He used the notwithstanding clause is the easiest way.

He didn't have a vote in parliament. Well, of course, every self-respecting French person is in the streets now. I love this. It stems from the same source. I know it all. But all the great ideas come from Canada, right?

Independence movements, notwithstanding clauses. Yeah. And even pension reform. We got that one done, right? We got that one done. But we voted in parliament on it. Yeah. Okay.

We shift from france to finland and i you know i i love this story because we don't often talk about finland let's face it but what happened in the has happened in the last week on two fronts in finland is is really important one the joining of nato and the base basically extension of the nat NATO border that directly faces Russia has jumped considerably as a result of Finland's joining NATO. But at the same time, you have an election in Finland that basically boots out the left and brings in the right. Now, when you actually look at the numbers, it's really interesting because the two right-wing parties each got about 20% of the vote. And the left-wing party got about 20% of the vote.

But the combination, the partnering of the two right-wing parties puts them in power, at least for now. But those two issues, NATO and power in Finland, have got people looking and trying to sort out what really happened there. You know, the NATO story is just enormous, Peter, as you said. I mean, Finland has the longest border with Russia. And it's just given up 70 years of neutrality, really, since, you know, the run longer than that, really, since the Russo-Finnish war. This is a, if you take a slightly longer view here, this is just an enormous strategic defeat for Putin.

If you believe anything he says at all, he went to war because NATO was coming up against his borders. Well, he just made the situation infinitely worse as Finland joins. And Finland's a very capable fighting force. It's a small country, but it's battle-hardened. It's looked after itself. It is invested in defense, unlike other countries you and I know. And it's a very capable army. So it's a big story for Finland and a big, big story for NATO. NATO changes the face of NATO and in many ways changes the capability on the ground for NATO. Boy, if I were in the Kremlin, I would be looking

at what I wrought. Let me put it to this guy. You're quite right. Razor-thin election. Defeatable woman prime minister. I always pay attention to those. Young, again, you know, a lot of optimism around these women. But what's really interesting about Petteri Orpo, the new, hopefully the prime minister-elect, if he puts together that coalition you talked about, Peter, is this right is not the right in Italy, which is not all in on Russia. It's not the right of the Republican Party. It's not the DeSantis right.

We have no strategic interest in Ukraine. The support for Ukraine in Finland crosses left-right boundaries. And the first thing right after the election is nothing about our Ukraine policy will change, nothing about our NATO policy will change. So this is a right that we're more familiar with. You know, it is the old Republican right, which doubles down on defense, and it does not put at risk the bigger strategic picture here. You're quite right about Sanamaran,

the outgoing Finnish prime minister. That's three women on the international stage that have lost their positions just in the last couple of months. And in some ways, nobody was really expecting that and now they're trying to read into why you know with jacinda ardern as you mentioned in new zealand nicholas sturgeon here in scotland and now marin in in finland um this is kind of a detour from what we were what we still got left to discuss but what is there something happening here that we're missing you know i i have to say peter uh i thought hard about that one um and any any reason that nicholas sturgeon game and jacinda or her or during gave you know unlike the prime minister of Finland was they were exhausted. So as a woman, I said to myself,

wow, does this tell me something about the stresses and strains of women as political leaders? Are these strains so much greater than what their male counterparts would face, either from family reasons or from, frankly, some of the abuse they take, that makes it harder for women to succeed. I don't want to go there, obviously. Let me say I don't want to go there because we don't have enough evidence that that's the case. How many men have lost their jobs over the last six months? And we don't ask those kinds of questions.

So I don't think we can draw that conclusion, but I have to say it's dispiriting. Three really talented women here, young, you know, Santa Marin, Jacinda Ardern with great futures, and Nicola Sturgeon, it's in many ways stunning, and you know Scotland so well, Peter, but can you imagine one of the VACs saying, I'm tired? This is too much. It's inconceivable, frankly.

So it's a troubling confluence of circumstances, let me put it that way. Well, we'll keep thinking about that one and see what we come down with, because I think it is, you know, you can argue well in Ardern and Sturgeon's case, they both were looking at situations that suggested that if there was an election, they were going to lose. And maybe that was the time to get out. But Maren, as you say, I mean, she obviously ran for re-election and was unsuccessful. Anyway, we'll keep thinking about that. We're way behind time, so we've got to keep that in mind as we move on.

From Europe to the Middle East, Israel. Man, you know, Israel is sort of checked out of the world news because so many different news organizations have checked out of Israel and that part of the Middle East and haven't been telling the story. Suddenly now we're confronted with images like we thought, you know, were gone from that region, at least had been for a while. What is happening in Israel and what should we expect is going to happen? Okay. Paying attention to the time here, Peter, two huge stories, really.

One is the escalation of attacks across the border that came from Lebanon this time. And that's a really fascinating story because these were Hamas-enabled attacks. Hamas operates out of Gaza, out of the West Bank, doesn't usually fire weapons across the border. What does that tell us? Hezbollah, the principal Muslim organization that operates throughout the south of Lebanon, winked and nodded and said, go ahead.

Now, that is a very big Middle East story, because Hamas is a Sunni organization, Hezbollah is a Shia organization. And if we work our way around to Saudi Arabia later, we'll see how important the changes are, the big strategic changes that are going on in the Middle East. This is just one of those ripples. It was interesting. They each play like chess, okay? They did what they did, but Hezbollah said, no, it's got nothing to do with us. Hamas did this from southern Lebanon, not Gaza,

because the Gazan population does not support this. They have paid the price for these attacks time after time. They do not want another round. And Israel struck back, not in Lebanon, but in an unpopulated part of Gaza. So the message was, okay, we have to do this, but we don't want to escalate right now either. If you're not watching, miss all that right inside there's a passover break for the prime minister uh i am pessimistic peter i i do not see a solution to the domestic crisis that is going on um in his over judicial reform uh if the French are on the streets,

just wait until Passover is over. I expect Israelis to be out back on the streets en masse again. You mentioned Saudi Arabia a moment ago. The country everyone loves to hate, I think is the phrase that you've coined before about Saudi Arabia, but it's up front and in the news again. Why? Well, so, you know, here's a great story where the threads all tie in on our tour here, Peter.

With the help of China, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, the Sunni country at the head of the Gulf and the Shia Sunni, a Shia country at the head of the Gulf, have mended relations. And their two foreign ministers were in Beijing. Who would believe that one five years ago, right? And they have stored diplomatic relations. So what does this tell us about Saudi Arabia? It is not enough anymore for the president of the United States to pick up the phone and say, jump. The Saudis have options. And that's the new world that we live in. This was not true for Saudi Arabia, really, for the last 70 years.

It's true now, but I'm not sure that Washington understands that. They have another place that they can go. Secondly, if Saudis and Iranians actually manage to pull this off and damp down their conflict, they're going to shift alliances all through the Middle East and even into Africa, where Saudi has extensive interests. And third, Mohammed bin Salman, which, as I said, everybody loves to hate. And why, Peter?

Predominantly because he killed a journalist and cut his body up into quarters, Khashoggi. You don't do that to journalists unless you want your name on the front page of every newspaper for the next 10 years reminding people of what you did. But he's pushing his country to diversify its economy, making investments in advanced technology. Business people are flocking to Saudi Arabia again. And that's not the image of Saudi Arabia, North America. But boy, the Chinese get it.

The Europeans get it. And what they're doing again, going around the United States. That's fascinating because, you know, you'd think that at some point MBS, as they call them, would pay the price for what happened. Yet he never has. And he's wielding more power and more influence now than he ever did. That's right. And you see, China has no interest in exacting a price from MBS.

It plays by different rules. So there's no, you don't make foreign aid conditional on human rights observances. If you're China, you invest, you charge a very high interest rate, and you send your own people and your own companies to build the infrastructure. That's the other game that is now in town for countries like Arabia. And of course, why wouldn't they prefer it? They do. One country that both you and I have thought and wondered and been to, you know, more than a little amount of time over the last 20 years is Afghanistan.

One of the big questions that has come up in Washington is who's responsible for the mess that was the withdrawal of the United States from Afghanistan last year? Two years ago. Yep, August. August of... Was it August of last year, two years ago. Yep, August, August. Yeah, August of, was it August of last year? It was August of 21. 21, so almost two years ago now.

Yeah. Time flies when we're having fun, right? So the big question is, who's to blame for that mess? Well, the Biden administration finally came down the last week with its report, its study of what happened, because they've been kind of universally panned for their handling of the thing two years ago, or almost two years ago. But their report is, no, no, no, no, no, no, you've got it wrong. It wasn't us. It was that guy before us.

It's all Trump's fault. Are they going to be able to get away with that? You know, I have to say, Peter, that report made me crazy. It just did. And I know we're running out of time, but that made me absolutely crazy. You know, that was a shambolic retreat from Afghanistan. There was lots of intelligence before. We had NGOs pleading with the government starting in April and May, let's pull our people out. We see what's coming.

You and I, we knew early August at the latest when those two northern provinces fell without a fight, what was going on. There was negotiations. You didn't need to be an intelligence officer to get this right. So that attempt to blame it on the Trump administration, to me, that's everything that's wrong. Instead of doing a really hard-nosed assessment, they said this was all the fault of the Trump administration. In the most trivial sense, Trump drew down to 2,500, which is too small a force to do anything in Afghanistan with a country that says we're leaving and we're drawing down our forces, but you go and fight till the death. So there is that, but the report misses entirely a small question and a big question. What did we do wrong in a month for that withdrawal? And you know what they are? The conclusion they drew, which, again, just drives me nuts.

Any time there are serious signs of insecurity, we'll withdraw. Now, if you're in another country, another part of the world listening to that, what conclusions do you draw? Right? I have your back? I don't think so so that's nuts and the bigger obvious question is was this mission ever achievable what were the options here right and so this this miss this report missed on every single measure that it could miss on. I'm going to try to find out who wrote that one.

Well, you know, history will judge this in the way history does long after we're all gone. But in my sense, my guess is that history will judge this. The mistake that was made was on September 12th when they decided they were going in to Afghanistan. And let me add one. Let's add one more date to that just for the record here. December 15th, 2001, the Bonn Conference, when the Taliban asked Donald Trump, can we come to the conference and be part of the solution? And he said, no way. Right.

Yeah, I mean, when you think of the blood and losses, not just of the coalition forces, which were bad enough, but far worse was the blood and loss in Afghanistan itself. But that one was a no-win from the beginning. Yeah. I mean, it was like nobody had read the history books about Afghanistan. You could kind of predict what was going to happen. Just ask the Russians what had just happened to them, you know, relatively in a short period of time before 9-11. Anyway, that's another.

Here's one that I, when we were, when we went in, when Canada went in, we did not have a single Pashto or Dari speaker in global affairs or D&D. That's how much we knew about Afghanistan, as you rightly said. Right. And the Americans were no different, really. No. And they were leading the charge. Anyway, it's easy to be quarterbacks now, all these years later. But, you know, I do think that's the way history will end up looking back at this time.

Anyway, we have two countries to go to and very little time to do them. Mali. French troops out, Wagner inagner in like this is amazing we can't skip on this story maybe we put brazil off for our next visit we kind of did brazil last time so okay you get your our final talk is on mali go okay because what a fascinating story this really is. You know, the French had been the chief security provider in Mali, former French colony. And as Al-Qaeda and the Islamic State was, you know, thrown out of the Middle East, but it moved into what we call the African Sahel, that whole sweep of countries for the desert. And Mali was in many ways, Peter, the poster child.

Even for Canada, we sense a disproportionate amount of development, assistance to Mali over the years. What happens, of course, the French cannot really get a handle on this. The Islamic State and Al-Qaeda don't fight in conventional ways. Civilian casualties mount in Mali, and there was growing opposition to the French presence. And then there's a coup. In 2020, a military government takes over, promises elections, which have never happened. And even today, we have an interim president. You know, he's an interim president. He asked the French to leave. That part of, you know, Macron doesn't talk a lot about that, does he?

But this is a strategic defeat again for france of the first order and the french forces are out by the end of 2022 someone across the border in denver but they're out no sooner are they gone then the interim president contracts the w Group, which we all know now. We didn't know who they were before, but we know now who they are. They are hired mercenaries. They are far more ruthless. The number of civilian casualties in Mali has actually gone up.

Human rights violations. Let's not even talk about that kind of issue. Civilian massacres, several very, very flagrant massacres have taken place. But you look around and you say, at the heart of the Sahel, you have the Wagner Group as the principal provider of security. The UN mission that was there, we were in it. You might remember, we provided helicopters under tremendous pressure. We provided helicopters. Well, when theina Faso leaves, Niger leaves. It is a hollowed out mission. One more mission, the UN has failed.

And we have now a strip across that, Sahel, Niger, Chad, neighbors of Mali, where the Wagner Group is now the principal provider of security. So let's take an aerial look at this part of the world for a moment. The Wagner Group is a security provider, and China is building infrastructure in Africa. And we're letting it all slide by, you know, in what is potentially one of the most consequential continents in the world on so many different areas. Such an important story, Peter, for, you know, the youngest continent in the world, in a world that is aging badly. So that's where a lot of growth will take place. And, you know, we've been having a conversation in Canada about critical minerals. The vast bulk of the critical minerals are in Africa, and China already has long-term contracts with many African governments to buy those critical minerals when they are mined.

So you're right that we're letting the story slide by, but it is a very, very big story. As always, Janice, I thank you much. We didn't get to Brazil, but we did touch on Brazil last time around, so it's still going to be there by the time we talk again. But man, that was a fast trip around the world, and just

a number of places that really are important to keep our eyes on, even at a time when there's so much else to be watching closely. So I appreciate the time as always, and look forward to doing it again with you another month or so. Thanks.

Great to travel with you, Peter. Well, there you go. Janice Stein. Monk School, University of Toronto. Always great to talk to you, Janice. And don't you come away more informed and you figure, okay, you know, we've got a complicated world, but I know a little more than I did, you know, 45 minutes ago. And thanks to Janice.

So that's, that's great. Okay. And I'm going to leave it. No, I'm not going to leave it there. I'm going to leave it on this little story. You know me, I love telling little stories. This one I saw on The Observer over the weekend. Sixty years ago this month, April of 1963,

there was a little event that happened in a small private school in Buckinghamshire, England. The students there had gathered together and decided, you know what, we'd love to have a little concert, and we want to find a local band to come and play. So they did a little sniffing around, and they heard about this band from Liverpool. Yeah, I know, you know where this is going. So this is April of 63.

This is before things started to sweep the nation and sweep the world. That was more like six months later when it really started, and then it took off the following year, of course, when the Beatles arrived on the Ed Sullivan Show in New York and became this worldwide phenomenon very quickly. But in April of 1963, they weren't any of those things. And you just have to look at the picture of them from this school concert.

People had forgotten this. I guess those who were kind of in the room. But a reporter for the Observer named Samira Ahmed, she heard about the story, and so she tried to find who's got some pictures. And then she heard about a fellow by the name of John Bloomfield, who was a student there. And in 1963,

you know, people didn't have iPhones and tape recorders like they do now. But John Bloomfield had a Nagra, which was really one of the special, very special tape recorders that used professionally a lot. He had a Nagra for some reason, and on the day the Beatles played at the school,

he ran a microphone up and put it on the floor in front of them on the stage when they were singing, and he recorded it. And, you know, he kept the tape, but he really didn't do anything with it. He kind of stored it. And, you know, he kept the tape, but really didn't do anything with it and kind of stored it. He knew the Beatles took off and became hugely famous and there were 45s and LPs around and sure, so people heard them. So he didn't think much of his tape and he totally almost forgot

about it. But then he found it and word got around and Samir Ahmed, the reporter for The Observer, went and found them. And sure enough, that tape has pretty much the whole concert, including the set list. You know, I saw her standing there from me to you, twist and shout. You know, they love me do. There's like a whole bunch of them. And it's a pretty good recording

apparently. They haven't released it anywhere yet. It's in being looked after, as they say in the business, trying to maximize the quality of this old recording. And then I guess they'll put it out like we need another Beatles recording. I don't know. I loved the story.

I thought it was great. And there's a couple of pictures in the observer piece, so if you go on the observer website, you'll see it. It's them all right, but it's before the hair got kind of longer. But they're all wearing the same kind of little suits, little Beatles outfits.

And they're all there, John, Paul, George, and Ringo. They're the guys. Okay, that's going to wrap it up for this day. What a way to start a week. Tomorrow, Brian Stewart's by. He's got some Cracker Jack stories too. He's got a terrific new story about spying and intrigue in Ukraine.

So Brian will be by with that. Wednesday, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth with Bruce. Friday, it's back to your turn. So cards and letters, get them in. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. The Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com. The Random Ranter. And on Friday, it's Good Talk with Chantel and Bruce.

That's it for me for this day. Thanks for listening. Talk to you again in 24 hours.