The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - What Does Putin Have On Trump? Seriously, What Does He Have?

Episode Date: October 14, 2026

As Thanksgiving fell on Monday this week, Dr. Janice Stein joins us for her regular weekly conversation on Wednesday this week. The topic is all about Donald Trump's claim that he arranged a ceasefire between Ukraine and Russia...a ceasefire neither country says they were aware of. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

And hello there, Peter Ransbridge here. You're just moments away from the latest episode of the bridge. It's Wednesday and a special Wednesday because Dr. Janice Stein from the Mug School, the University of Toronto was with us, making up for Monday, which was, of course, a holiday Thanksgiving day. So Dr. Stein will be here in a couple of moments' time. The question or the issue, the topic for Dr. Stein today is Donald Trump. What is it that Vladimir Putin has on Donald Trump? we'll get to that when we come back.

That's right, a special Wednesday with Dr. Janice Stein. She'll be long in, well, just a moment or two. Time enough to remind you of what the question of the week is, and you've only got until 3 p.m. Eastern Time this afternoon to get your answer in. The question is about habits. Do you have a habit you wish you could quit? What is it? And why do you want to quit it?

Or if you figure, I used to, to have a habit that I wanted to quit and I quit it. Well, tell us, what was it and how did you do that? So that's the question of the week. 75 words or fewer, right? Cannot be over 75 words long. You send it into the Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com, the Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com.

Have it in by 3 p.m. Eastern Time this afternoon, as we said. Include your name and the location you're writing from. Those are all important aspects of our question of the week. So there you go. Those are the rules. Follow them. Or you know what happens. Not much time in a short week.

So get your answers in. Look forward to hearing what you have to say. Also tomorrow the random ranter. But right now it's Dr. Janice Stein with a topic. I know many of you have wondered about, because you've written to me about it. Donald Trump, what is it that Putin has on him? Well, we were asking that question again this week.

And here's why. Let's bring in Dr. Janice Stein. So, Janice, we've always known that Trump kind of just makes stuff up. And we've seen this kind of time and again. But this past couple of days has, been out of a whole new playbook. The so-called Russia-Ukraine ceasefire that neither Russian or Ukraine say they signed on too.

Ukraine says they'd love to see one, but they don't know that one exists. And Trump says, it exists because I say it exists. How do you make sense of this? Well, you can't, Peter, right? But to say that, just to stop with that phrase, it exists because I say it exists. In what delusional world is that true, right? But it's really stunning.

He announced a ceasefire on attacks on refineries. That's what he announced. Well, first of all, it was an energy ceasefire. Then somebody in the White House scrambled and posted on what this is a ceasefire against the tax on refineries. Well, the Russians have won. The Ukrainians have multiple. So this is if it existed at all, was the most lopsided agreement that you could conceivably imagine. And why did he want this?

Because really it's all about one issue, diesel fuel. So what separates diesel? And, you know, diesel is really important for the trucking industry, for farmers. But what separates diesel fuel, it's refined. And here's this connection between these two conflicts that you and I spend a lot of time talking about. And it's how these are connected, which is. in some ways making both of them worse, refineries were attacked by Iran in the opening days of the war, particularly in Qatar and the Emirates. That's where most oil is refined to produce diesel. There's a

shortage of diesel. So what does this really tell you about Trump? This is pre-election leverage, pre-midterm election story. That's what it is, which is good. My arithmetic is not great. Probably another, what, 20 days? That's all that's left of this period. He does this in the expectation that a Russian diesel could flood the market. There would be a reduction in price in the U.S. market doesn't talk to the Russians about a reciprocal gesture for Ukraine. Ukraine, nothing. Nothing. They just better do it or they get another president, he says.

The Ukrainians find out about it when they're at a meeting at Steve Whitkoff's golf club. You can't make stuff like this up. You really can't appear. And none of it, none of it has gone into effect. except one thing, by the way. He's lifted the sanctions against Russian diesel exports, which is illegal. It's illegal under U.S. law. It violates a law that Congress passed, anticipating something like this,

that he would have to consult Congress before, I get the approval before he lifted sanctions against Russia in the absence of a deal. There's clear no deal. Well, it may be against the law, but the way Trump thinks is there is no law that governs him. Right. He can do whatever he wants. Let me go back to a word you used in the first sentence of your answer there,

and that was delusional. It certainly appears delusional, but, I mean, does nobody around him challenge him at all when something seems delusional? I mean, like, how does he... Explain to me how he gets away with delusional moments. So, you know, I think... Let's look at the cast of characters who were...

Who could have been around him when he made this decision over a weekend, by the way. in which Steve Whitkoff and Jared Kushner were at Steve Wichikov's home, meeting with the fairly large Ukrainian delegation to talk about the next steps in the ceasefire. So they weren't there. Steve Wickev got a call. Two hours into the meeting, stepped out and took the call, and that was it, blew up the meeting. So who else is there? There's a secretary of energy.

Right? He doesn't stand up. to this president in any way. Who else would be relevant? In the normal world, you'd have a national security advisor that was really functioning and could say the president just won't work. This is going to damage the prospects and negotiations with Ukraine. It's not going to matter on the ground.

It's not enough time. And, oh, by the way, it's illegal. The word illegal would have been enough to stop most presidents. But that's Rubio, who's Secretary of State and National Security Advisor at this point and probably has limited leverage and chooses the issues on which he's going to speak up, picks his battles. And Ukraine is just not one of his. Much more important to him is the Western Hemisphere or the Caribbean.

Those are the issues that work with Ruby or who cares about. So who does it leave you? Pete Haxa, and that's it. I don't even think it would be Dan Cain because it's not a military issue. It's an energy issue. And Susie Wiles. So the last, the first and last stop is probably Susie Wiles. And she has been able to say no occasionally.

But again, I would suspect it was a Sunday. He's up at night. He thinks about this. It's a weekend. He announces it. It's true because he says it's true. He doesn't probably even know that it's illegal. He wouldn't know about the legislation.

But he doesn't care. And here's the irony. She gets what he wants, which is the sanctions against Russian diesel are lifted. But the war, the war continues. I mean, even as he's saying, doesn't exist anymore because there's a ceasefire, they're blowing stuff up. I mean, it took literally, as he announced it, I think within hours, the Russians launched

an attack on energy infrastructure in Kharkiv. Literally, it took a few hours. Ukraine, this is the Ukraine's only card, by the way, a major, to use his language for a second. the cars that both sides have. Where has Ukraine really been able to bring the war home to Russia? It's attacked refineries across Russia. And it is significantly reducing Russia's energy exports. There's no question, Peter. And that's tightening global energy markets.

But, you know, people say, well, the United States is the world's biggest oil export. And at times it is now. But it's one market. It's one integrated global market. So if there's a shortage anywhere in that market, the prices go up. And we always know that. People who buy gas for cars, we always know it goes up with the pump. It's one integrated market.

When Russian energy exports drop, which they have as Ukraine has gone after in these refineries, prices go up. He's just focused on one thing that he cares about right now. bring those prices down at the pump before those midterm elections. A lot of energy experts are, it's not enough time. It's three weeks, less than three weeks. Again, you know, if there's a reduction, it's going to be marginal. So no part of this story makes any sense.

I think the hardest thing to get your head around is we have a delusional president in the White House. I know, but And that's scarier. Yeah, exactly. I mean, listen to those words. That's much scarier. Listen to those words. Listen to that phrase, a delusional person in the White House.

Yeah. And, you know, that might be the nicest thing some people could say about him. But that it continues on and nobody says boo. His cabinet does nothing. The people may or may not in two or three weeks time do something at the midterms. but you never know with American voters what's going to happen. You know, I kind of get it that he would do this as a play on oil. But the fact is every play he's made on this war has been in Russia's favor.

Every play, right from the get-go. Yeah. And it leaves you still wondering, what do they have on this guy? or does this guy actually believe that the Russian way, the Putin way, is the right way in today's world? You know, that it's really interesting because I was struck to at that press conference that he gave after this was announced. He went out of his way to thank Donald Trump. He thanked him. I'm grateful.

I have to say, he said, I'm grateful to thank Vladimir Putin. He went on his way. Don't Trump thank Putin at that press conference? And as for Zelensky, he said, you know, he better. He better stop those attacks. If not, Ukraine should get another president. So the bias in favor of Vladimir Putin is so strong. But why?

I mean, like, why do you? None of us. Why do you think it is? I mean, I know none of us know with some certainty what it is, but it's got to be something. I mean, it's been there consistently for years now. This isn't the first example. It's the latest example. Eight years. Eight years. I mean, he, you know, he, people get to him over Ukraine and he, he, he moves a little bit, but he reverts to the mean all the time. He goes, back to thank you, thank you Vladimir Putin for doing this. I really have to thank him. He's got,

look, there's no way I can make sense of this. I don't believe it's simply admiration for Vladimir Putin. He doesn't talk like this about Gigi Ping, for instance. He'll say we have a good relationship, but we have a friendly

relationship. But this is so persistent all the time. And he goes back there all the time. So what could it be, what does Vladimir Putin conceivably have on Donald Trump that would embarrass it? Because that's the only way the story makes sense, right? He has something on it. Well, to be crude, I don't think there's anything.

The normal ammo with the Russians, it's they frame you while you're in Russia. They catch you in a sexually compromising position, and then they blackmail you. And this is an old story that goes on and on. I don't think that works with Donald Trump. And I don't think it works with Melanie either, in all honesty. It's just not credible as a tool that would work against Donald Trump. He doesn't care. And the stories that have already come out, and he's laughed off and she's ignored.

So I just can't believe that's what it is. So what else is it? He was bankrupted by the Russians. At a time, he was bankrupt. Yeah, I think so. I think they lent him money. But that's not enough to explain this kind of behavior. And how is it, Peter, that during the Biden years, the FBI and the CIA were looking,

they really did look because it was already a Ukraine problem and they were trying to understand. what it is, how deep can you cover something up that over 12 years? Because this starts in 2015, you don't want to cover the story. Well, you know, I hear you on that. And I, I mean, we all heard these stories about, you know, prostitutes when he was in Moscow in 80s or 90s, whenever it was. we've since seen things on his part that are similar and he just sluffs them off. He loses court battles over them. So they're kind of declared accurate against him. So why would he fold up like a cheap suit on that one from, you know, 40 years ago?

He won't. So it leaves you thinking, well, he actually believes Putin. like he believes that what Putin's doing is the right thing. And this is the way government should act. Yeah, well, look, he's got to, you know, who knows? This was clearly this particular story, which is really horrifying. It was horrifying not because it's going to, you know, Ukraine is struggling very badly anyway. And this is not a death blow.

This is just a nightmare struggle for you. Ukraine. It's not going to be determining of the outcome. But this was so self-serving, so instrumental. He believes that if he can get more diesel fuel on the market in Michigan, and Ohio, and other places where, and you can tell he's doing this, Peter, because you know, in the weeks just preceding election, you watch where the candidate goes. on, right? That campaign tells you everything about where it's, never mind the polls. And he's only in red states right now, which tells you, they're really worried the Republicans. So he, this is what I mean, delusional. Oh, let's get some diesel fuel into the marketplace.

That'll turn this around. It's not me. It's not anything I'm doing. That'll turn this around. And that's all he's focused on. He's getting that diesel fuel into the market. The rest of it, blows it off and fabricates. And, you know, this is a lying. Lying is this more, is this a scarier than lying? Because when you lie, you know the truth, but you're covering it up. Delusional, you don't know the truth. When he said, this should exist, because I said it exists, that's delusional.

Well, you know, if he wanted diesel oil, why don't he just, come knocking on our door. Well. You know, he could have achieved two things with one move. You know, he could have settled some of those, you know, Republican states, which are, you know, have had it with the dumping on Canada stuff. Yes. And he could have got the diesel fuel because we could have given it to.

Very quickly, right? But he would have had to give us something. Well. Probably. It would have been pretty tough for this, Prime Minister. to agree to ship diesel fuel over the border to help Donald Trump in an election campaign that frankly, every Canadian is hoping

that he takes a slacking in the House and fantasizing that he's going to lose control of the Senate. It'd be pretty tough on our prime minister to do that without getting something in return. And he... So he would have got something. One of the same, you make a deal. deal. You make a deal. Yeah. But he didn't even think about it. He didn't even, I would much rather

make a deal with Putin than I would with Mark Carney. And by the way, he spoke to Mark Carney on Sunday. Right. There was a telephone call on Sunday between the two of them. And so it wasn't as if he never, you know, our prime minister was way in the background. It's just, he wasn't there. He had a call with Mark Carney on Sunday, in which the prime minister, from the readout of the call, criticized him for doing this with Russia and talked about how damaging it would be for Ukraine. You know, the option was sitting right there. Yeah, I was having trouble following what the Canadian position was, because in one moment it was congratulating Trump for coming up with what looked like a deal.

And then on the other hand was the deal. deal's bad. Yeah. So I wasn't following it there. I don't think it was you, Peter. There was no deal there. It was transparent. There was no deal in an hour or two.

Russia was back at it. It got what it wanted. You know, those sanctions are off. Russia can export. U.S. is not the only customer. for diesel fuel. There is a worldwide shortage of diesel fuel, and that's why the price is up.

So whether it goes to the United States are a multitude of customers, huge win, huge win for Russia that is under pressure precisely on this issue. Putin got everything he wanted. And, you know, here's where Trump, a reporter asked him, never mind the prime minister,

A report asked him, well, what is Ukraine? He said nothing. I don't know. It is, I have to say, there was a big debate going on in this country, right? Will it be easier to deal with Donald Trump after the elections when he suffered, again, a stinging defeat? Because that's where everybody's holding before they're looking at the polls, they're looking at the plane where it is. I'm always more careful because I don't know

generally speaking that Trump vote is not accurately reflected in the polls for a whole variety reasons it's harder to get to Trump voters and let's say for a second that happened and so people are expecting oh a wounded Donald Trump

will make a deal I actually think it's in reverse I think a wounded Donald Trump will be more of what we saw he will be humiliated, he will be angry, he will lash out, and he won't care because there's nothing left for him to lose after this, right? So we got a glimpse of what it's going to be like to have a president who is untethered from reality. That's what he is, who unless he's around an advisor who really cares about an issue,

So I think Rubio really cares about the Mediterranean and South America. He really cares. And he was willing to put his finger on the scale. Or Susie Wiles, at times, just put her finger on the scale and just says, you can't do this. And he trusts her. Other than that, this is the preview of what a very long time, 27 months is going to be like from after November the 4th.

2026th and January 21st, 2021, 29. Yeah, that's scary. That's a scary thought. Yeah, that's really scary. You know, the other thing is, you know, Trump loves to say that he needs nothing from Canada. Canada has nothing to give him.

It's not true. Well, it's not true, and it's certainly not true right now. They get diesel, we got potash, you got electricity, like all these things that he needs, right? Yeah. And yet that's not enough to sit down and make some kind of an agreement. Obviously, we're not going to win on everything. And, you know, nobody knows that better than Carney.

You're going to have to give to get. But exactly what and where and how and when becomes the question. And, you know, is it in the next three weeks or is it hoping that he, in fact, will want to sit down and deal afterwards? I hear what you're saying and your reluctance to believe that. Yeah. You know, Trump made a comment, Peter, and he's off-the-cuff comments with him that you get a window sometimes. And I said, you know, it's a ceasefire. It's a ceasefire.

He said about us, about Canada a few weeks ago, he said, I'm happy with where we are. Energy is flowing across the border. we're getting everything we need, we're getting the potash we need, we're getting uranium, we need those of the things they really need. He said, and agricultural products are trapped are going both ways across the border,

so I'm happy. I don't need anything more. And the prime minister was asked about this, and he made a really important point, and this shows you how tough it is for us right now, because he said, look, and then he was asked,

why don't you withhold some of that? Because those are clearly the things that the United States needs. And he said, no, we are a reliable supplier. That's what, and that's true, we are known to be a reliable partner. If I raise the price or if I sanction anything, agricultural products that are going both ways across the border, much less the Alberta problem. the promise there has until this referendum is over. But he's built a bigger issue that if we weaponize our energy supply against the United States,

how much different are we from what he's doing? Not at all. And Carney was signaling, and I think rightly, he's not going to go there. He's not going to go there. So there's a faint hope here that I have. And it's fainted. That the status quo stays where we are. That he doesn't lash out afterwards.

Because he doesn't need it. And if he doesn't need it, he doesn't care about it. It's off his radar. Before we leave Russia, Ukraine. Ukraine. Yeah. What is your latest sense of the state of the war? Because, you know, it's been kind of up and down.

year there have been moments where it looked like Ukraine might be on the verge of victory, and then there were being moments where it looked like Russia was coming back. So where are we? So where are we on the ground where nobody's looking? Spotlight is not there. The Ukrainians actually managed to stabilize a front line where the Russians were pushing forward in that string of cities right at the edge and push the Russian. back, 400, 500, 500 square kilometers, which is astounding that they were able to do it.

In the air is different because the Russians have put jet motors on drones. That's the easiest way to explain this. And they are producing as many missiles as they need at home in their own factories. They have really kicked up their industrial manufacturing sector, Peter, and they can keep going. And the air war is just brutal. And those are all the pictures that we're seeing for Ukraine. That's why the refineries mattered.

Because constricting Russia's supply of diesel, one, that is what's power in their industrial machine, and that's what they are not selling abroad. Their exports have really dropped off the edge. That's what Ukraine's strategic advantage was. And it's asymmetrical. The Ukrainians have many more refineries. The Russians have many more refineries.

These are refineries, the Ukrainians only have one. But they have all kinds of other energy installations that the Russians are bombing. So this is a serious blow to Russia to remove the Russian sanctions against Diesel, which he's done now. And it's really, really consequential for Ukraine. Okay. How you design around this is going to be really tough. All right. We're going to take our break.

We'll come back right after this and pick up on a different. topic. But this is first. Back in a moment. And welcome back. You're listening to, well, in this case, it's the Wednesday episode of the bridge with Dr. Janice Stein. Monday, of course, was Thanksgiving.

So we got Janice to come in for a Wednesday this week. Should we back to a normal Monday on next week? You're listening to Series XM, Channel 167, or 160, Canada Talks, or on your favorite podcast platform. I want to move to the Hooties in Saudi Arabia, which you brought us up to date on last week, and a good thing you did, because within hours, literally, after that program,

all hell broke close on that story. But let me just ask one last question that kind of relates to the first part of what we're talking about. One of the things you love to go to, and they have them all over the world at various security conferences. We have the big one in Halifax. But the most recent one is being in Poland,

which I think you've been to in the past, but obviously you weren't there this time. But you have friends who were. And I'm wondering what you're hearing was the headline out of that conference this year. You know, the conference took place Sunday and Monday, Peter, and I didn't go because it was Canadian Thanksgiving, and I make the turkey in our myself off the table.

Right. I told them, don't make it on Canadian Thanksgiving next year. That's not fair. And they said, what is Canadian Thanksgiving? Which I also got. But the headline at that conference was a speech by the senior NATO military commander. an American general who said, who gave a very tough speech in which he said, we have a plan in the event that Russia escalates against Europe.

So he brought out of the closet, the worry that Europeans have. And he said it is break the brunt of any kind. of excursion, invasion against any European member, push it back, and use every instrument, every capability that we have to do that. And he was very clear. He said, this is not a plan to invade Russia in return. That is any European hopes. That is a kiss of death, frankly, a strategy like that.

It's never worked. It has never worked. You just think back to World War II. And the German invasion had a massive army and it failed. It's what actually defeated the Germans in World War II. But it was a toughest speech I've heard by the Supreme NATO commander ever. And it was plausible. It was how you mobilize frontline defenses.

You stop it. as soon as it crosses, if it goes further, you break it and you mobilize all the capabilities that NATO has. The United States is American. The United States never came up in speech. It was NATO, but it was probably, it is the toughest speech I've heard. And that, it's no accident that was given at the Warsaw Security Conference. These were Europeans largely that come to that conference.

There are, you know, Poles, Armenians, Lithuanians, Lepans, the countries that feel most threatened by what Russia is doing because I think it's fair to say, Peter, what we've seen in the last year, that Russia is already engaging in what we call hybrid war in Europe, which means war that is just below the threshold, a full-scale use of military force, but it combines, you know, disinformation,

you know, unattributed drone attacks, espionage, a whole series of provocative actions against European countries that stop just below the threshold, and that's what they've been doing. And there is really, there is deep worry. that this will escalate. So this was an attempt to draw a red line. That's what he did.

And this was the discussion. You know, we have several colleagues from the Halifax Security Forum family that were at that forum. And that's what they wrote about. No, I know this, I know this was the NATO commander. but he is a U.S. general, it would be. Yes. It's probably the toughest speech that any U.S. military leader

has given as it relates to the Russian situation. Yeah. You know, since Trump has been president, that's for sure. And you wonder whether a speech like that ever crossed the deaths in the White House before it was given or what they're saying after it was given. That's a different story. Yeah.

That's a different. I bet it never crossed the president. President's desk before because he was speaking in his capacity as Nato Commander. Let's see how long he is Nato Commander. Yeah. You never know would this administration. They never know. Okay.

We've got a couple of minutes to update our situation on the Houthis in Saudi Arabia, because it was a brutal week last week if you were a Saudi leader, for sure. It exploded, Peter. I'm so well, we talked about it because it really explained. It's been a terrible week for Saudi Arabia. Four consecutive days, and I haven't seen what happened today when to say it, but it's four consecutive days of attacks on the Saudi airport. There was a big energy conference. Some of the most senior executives, largely U.S. executives, didn't go because their security teams told them it was not safe.

The South airport was closed Sunday and Monday, which is astonishing. The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia has had discussions with Turkey and Pakistan. They have a defense treaty. Are they going to join because he has said explicitly that Saudi Arabia is going to strike back. the head of Iranco which is the biggest oil company in the world Saudi

came out and said that there has to be retaliation so the pressure on the Crown Prince to bomb is huge and it won't work

bombing will not work he has approached Donald Trump again and over the weekend on that famous Sunday, Donald Trump said he's thinking again about whether he will intervene further. Because what are the Americans doing with the Saudis right now? They're providing intelligence, which is very important always, because the United States has the best intelligence in the world

because of its face coverage, which is 24-7 of everything. And they're providing some tactical advice. but what's different this time from because this is a 10-year war and 11-year war what's different this time there are boots on the ground but they're Yemeni boots on the ground and so there was years fighting on the ground. Houthi forces were pushed back by Yemeni ground forces that are armed by the Saudis but are fighting because for them, it's duer d'Hitt.

It is the remnants of the internationally recognized Yemeni government. So they push back some of the Saudi forces from the edges of Bab el Nanda. The Houthis have encircled one of the large cities, Taiz. There is an intense ground war going on now in Yemen, which will just look at this

these local ground forces Yemen and Yemeni and Houthis who are now a big storyline in the war between the United States and Israel against Iran

the Iranian foreign minister calls the Saudis and says we will mediate for you which is a euphemism where we can stop the Houthis because they probably We can stop the Houthis, but what do we get for it? And then layer on top of that, the United States, who needs diesel fuel, because that's where the diesel fuel started, was from this war, which connects the thread right back to Russia and Ukraine.

Oh, boy. It's like a big, you know, a convoluted ball of thread, right? And as soon as you just pull on one piece of the thread, out pops a whole. series of other threads. Yeah. So this is, man, it's it is the world we live in

and the consequences are shared by us all now, you know? That's right. You used to be able to look at these little conflicts, you know, inside Yemen where the hooty rebels are trying to take over the country as a, you know, as a one-off.

But now look at when you pull all the threads, how it's affecting all of us. It's, it's great something. You can draw a thread from those hootie. to the White House lawn on Sunday, Peter. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Well, this was an interesting Wednesday, Janice, and we will get back together on our normal time next Monday. So thank you for this. My pleasure, Peter. And I know this is not my beat, but it's less than. It's 20 days to November before. it's very, we are in that.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm sure there will be lots more, you know, people are trying to determine, was this alleged ceasefire? Was that the October surprise or is there still something else to come? Because Trump has promised an October surprise of some kind. If this was it, it doesn't seem to have worked. No. Anyway, we'll keep in touch on all this and we'll talk to again next Monday.

See you Monday. Yep. Bye for now. Well, there you go. Dr. Janice Stein, our latest conversation with Janice, and as always, gets you thinking. All right, that's going to do it for this Wednesday, a special Wednesday for us. Tomorrow is your turn. You know the question.

You've got a couple of hours to get your answers in, and you know how to do that. Plus the random rander, that's tomorrow, and then Friday, of course, good talk with Chantelle and Bruce. That's all coming up right here on the bridge. Hope you're enjoying it. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening

and we'll talk to you again in less than 24 hours. Bye for now.