The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - What To Believe And What Not To Believe About Omicron

Episode Date: November 29, 2021

So we are all worried and that's okay, but let's keep things in perspective.  We track down Dr. Isaac Bogoch to give us an honest take on what we should be thinking about this latest twist in the Covid story. 

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. What to believe and what not to believe in the latest twist to the COVID story. And welcome to another week on the bridge. Well, what kind of a weekend did you have? Did you spend a lot of it thinking about this latest twist on the COVID story? How it may impact your life and the decisions that you make on everything from travel to booster shots to kids' vaccines, you name it. The whole story has been put in some kind of limbo as a result of the news coming out of South Africa on Thursday and Friday that there was a new variant. It's caused a degree of panic. It's caused, there's no question about it, some countries

to take restrictive measures involving air travel and masking and a lot of different things including canada so a lot of this is based on some early concerns about this new variant and the question becomes what should we believe what shouldn't we believe how comfortable should we feel in the actions that governments are taking versus the advice that science is giving. So these are key questions. And as we often do when we turn to trying to answer questions about COVID, we go to a number of the epidemiologists in this country who are

respected around the world. One of them, and one of your favorites, is Isaac Bogoch from the University Health Network in Toronto. Dr. Bogoch was working throughout this weekend. He was on call at the university hospitals and on call for advice, a science table that he sits on with the Ontario government and any number of other people who are looking for advice from him. So we did have an opportunity to talk on the weekend. He's always been extremely good to me, and I appreciate that in terms of wanting to appear on the bridge.

Now, some of the things we discuss in this interview are clearly dated from the middle of the weekend. However, not the basics, not the important stuff. That's all very relevant. A few things have been updated, not a lot. You'll catch them as we go through, and we properly warn you on some of that. However, it's the big picture that Dr. Bogoch talks about,

and it's a lot of solid, smart advice for all of us in this moment. Because we are in a moment, yet another moment, on the COVID story. And when that happens, when that occurs, you turn to those who have knowledge, who have understanding, who have context, who have perspective on a big issue. And Dr. Bogoch is certainly one of those. So without further ado, let's get to our conversation with Dr. Isaac Bogoch. You know, nothing travels faster than bad news. And on Friday, you know, the bad news went around the world in no time at all. And it crashed the markets and it had people canceling vacation plans.

And it had a lot of people really scared. The South Africans say we're overreacting. Most Western countries say we're going to be very careful here and plan for what we need to plan for. Who's right? Nobody. Everyone's partially correct, right? Everyone's partially correct. First of all, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to the scientists in South Africa and the scientists in Botswana.'s our response to that? Oh, let's block all travel to your region. So we have to really consider some of the ramifications of this. I think it's still fair to say there's so many unknowns and I get very skeptical and people speak confidently about this. What we do know is that there's some mutations in this particular variant

that are associated with things that we don't like, right? Greater transmissibility, some evasion of the immune system. That doesn't mean that when you stick them all together, it's like Lego and it's just additive and it will behave in that way. We still have to see how this particular variant behaves from a clinical standpoint. We have to see how it behaves in real-world settings from a transmissibility standpoint. So it's okay to be careful. It's okay to be cautious. It's okay to take extra measures at the level of the country and at the level of the world, but it's not okay to overreact and overinterpret. I think we've got to calibrate the reaction. You know, Fauci made an interesting comment over the

weekend suggesting, and he wasn't suggesting that the restrictions on travel were wrong, but he was suggesting that, hey, it's out there already. You can't stop it. It's already moving and it's already moved, as we've seen in different parts of the world. He's right about that? Oh, yeah. I mean, we could talk about the science, and then, of course, there's the political science, and those Venn diagrams don't entirely overlap. So, for starters, by the time you've discovered this, it's likely much more widespread than what many people would believe. So, for example, people are saying this was from Southern Africa. Well, I think it's fair to note that South Africa and Botswana have, you know, very good laboratory capacity and some very talented

scientists. They have the capabilities of discovering this and sharing this information. But, you know, we heard about a case in Belgium that had no contact with Southern Africa. This person was in Cairo via Turkey. We heard about a case pop up in Hong Kong. We heard about some cases in the UK. I mean, we're recording this on Saturday. By the time people hear about this, whenever this is aired, things might have changed and there might be new knowledge. But I think it's fair to say that focal travel restrictions aren't effective. They're largely performative. They make people feel good because it makes it look like we're doing something, but it's not really that effective. Full disclosure, we've known this long before COVID-19. And, you know, during COVID-19, we saw how well,

you know, focused travel measures from, for example, China were, and then they weren't. Then we saw focused travel measures to the UK for the Alpha variant. Well, how'd that work out? Then we saw focused travel measures to India for the Alpha variant. Well, how'd that work out? Then we saw focused travel measures to India for the Delta variant. Well, how'd that work out? Like, we know this doesn't work. Obviously, I mean, from a political standpoint, it has to appear that you're doing something. I just wish that we would be doing something more meaningful. I just don't, like this, the focal travel measures aren't very effective.

You're correct in pointing out, as we already have, that we're doing this in the middle of the weekend. And things are changing almost by the hour. But what do we actually know for sure about this situation right now, about this new B.1.1.529 Omicron. What do we know with certainty other than the numbers and the name? Yeah, that's a great point because when you boil it down, we know very little. And I think it's the uncertainty that is very challenging for people. And obviously you can't ignore it. You've always got to take it seriously.

You can't sweep it under the rug, but the response has to be calibrated. So, for example, what we do know is what genetic mutations this has. And the mutations that it has makes it, you know, at least somewhat concerning or gives this particular variant the potential to do a couple of things. Number one, is it going to be more transmissible than, for example, the Delta variant? And if it is, to what extent? Number two, what are the clinical manifestations of this particular variant? Does it have more significant or less significant clinical manifestations compared to, for example, the other variants that we've seen?

And thirdly, probably up there with as important as transmissibility in clinical manifestations is, does it to any extent erode away at immunity that we have from either vaccination or recovery from infection? And the mutations that it has would point in the direction that, yeah, you know what, we might see some of those features, but it doesn't actually guarantee them. So, you know, I think it's fair to obviously, that's why there's such a concern about this globally. It's got some concerning mutations in it. But remember, there's the genetics, and that's what we know, thanks to South African scientists and scientists in Botswana. Then there's the clinical manifestations, still unknown. Early, early shreds of reports saying it's probably, you know,

nothing more impactful than the other variants. But again, that's way too early to have any conclusive comments on this is from health ministers in South Africa. And then the third component is, you know, to what extent we just don't know to what extent this may chip away at immunity. One thing that's important to note, though, it would be extremely unlikely and unusual for a variant to emerge that completely erases, you know, the protective benefit that we have from, you know, vaccinations, like that would be a very unlikely and unusual scenario. So obviously, this is speculation. We need better data because there's so many unknowns. But give me a break. It's not going to be like your two doses of the vaccine are going to be rendered

useless or people who've received a third dose, it's going to be rendered useless. Maybe we'll see some gradual chipping away at the effectiveness of the vaccines, maybe. But it's not like it's going to erase all the protection that we've got and built up at a country level in Canada. I read in the early hours of this latest scenario that it could take a couple of weeks before we know about the impact on existing vaccines. Yeah, I mean, first we're going to start to see early laboratory studies, and those laboratory studies are going to look primarily at the antibody response. And to what extent does this evade a normal antibody response, or it'll be compared to other, you know, variants,

and they'll look at the antibody response. And you know what, be prepared, because they're going to say things like this lowers the antibody response by, you know, blank prepared, because they're going to say things like this lowers the antibody response by, you know, blank percent, like we're expecting these to come up. But we also have to remember that those are helpful. We can't ignore it. Those are helpful studies. But there's a hell of a lot more to our immune systems than an antibody response, right? We also have what's called cell mediated immunity. Those are T cells. And when you're vaccinated, when you recover from infection, you mount quite a robust immune response to this using multiple branches of your immune system. So even if it does chip away at immunity, it's extremely unlikely to really erase some

of the protection that we would get from vaccination or recovery from infection. I'm fully prepared that given the mutations that it has get from a vaccination or recovery from infection. You know, I'm fully prepared that given the mutations that it has, that there might be some erosion of immunity, like that might be on the table. It might, but you know, we'll need some laboratory data and then we'll also need some clinical

data. And as like anything else that takes time. I just want to clarify one point. You kind of went over this, but I want to go over it again. So there's no misunderstanding here. Since the Delta variant, there've been at least a dozen other variants, but nobody's pushed the alarm button to the extent that we're witnessing in these last few days. What was it about this that has made people so anxious? Yeah, it really is the types of mutations that were found on this particular virus. So these mutations have been

found in other variants, and those were variants that were either more transmissible or had a greater probability of reinfection. So, you know, you can't ignore it. Those mutations are real. Those mutations are present. And when something pops up and it has several of them, it certainly raises an eyebrow. And I think, you know, it's hard to cast one, you know, blanket statement over the medical and scientific and public health communities because you've seen various responses from, you know, alar, A, protect populations from this, and B, learn as much about this in the shortest period of time as possible um you know but what was really frustrating actually over the last couple of you know the last day and a half is we already heard you know estimates that were just ridiculous it's 500 times more transmissible or like it's gonna destroy it's like hey it's a pump the brakes a little bit it's okay to say we don't know because we don't know we just don't and i think it's important to

communicate uncertainty at a time like this because there is uncertainty. And it's also important to acknowledge that there's a plan, right? There is a plan. There are scientists all over the world that are coordinated and funded to really look into this in a very quick manner. And that's exactly what's happening right now. And in fact, the fact that we even know that this exists, is a testament to some of the incredible work that's happening behind the scenes with people who work in genomic sequencing, finding the genetics behind this virus in pockets all over the world, to identify this and to report this. And it kind of relates to, sorry for blabbing on and on, but it is important, kind of relates to a point we made earlier on.

You know, think about, we sort of touched on the futility of focused travel restrictions, but also think about other countries around the world. How eager are they going to be to be transparent if they identify a variant of concern or a variant that's potentially concerning? If they know the global response is going to be, okay, let's wall them off and seal them off from the rest of the world rather than take a more supportive approach. I really think that we need to rethink our global response to this information. And I appreciate, yeah, there's politics, there's medicine, there's science, there's public health, there's public opinion. There's the internet age where everyone can voice their opinion on several platforms simultaneously. I don't envy political leaders and key decision makers because these are tough

choices. People want to see action, but perhaps the action could be more meaningful and impactful than just saying you can't come here because we think this might be in your area. Before I go on, let me just say, nobody's going to accuse you of blabbing on this audience. This audience for sure hangs on. My wife. Okay, maybe that.

But in this audience, I know they hang on every word you're saying. And you're saying it in such a way that we all kind of understand it. You're not losing us in some of the terms and all this. In the meantime, how should my life change or should it change at all in the way I'm going about my life? So for the average person, what does this news mean to them and the way they're conducting their own personal safety? Absolutely nothing. That's the beautiful part. Well, for most people,

absolutely nothing. For some people, maybe it does involve some change. The beautiful thing is like public health measures are completely blind to variants. They are, right? If you wear a mask, you're helping protect yourself and protect other people. If you, you know, to have well-ventilated indoor spaces, you're protecting people in those indoor spaces. If you've gotten vaccinated, you're reducing the risk that you get this infection

and that you possibly transmit this infection to others if you're unlucky enough to be infected. Like there are things that are under our control that we can do. But guess what?

They're the exact same things that we've been talking about for ages. Get vaccinated. If you're eligible for a second vaccine, get that second one. If you're eligible for a second vaccine, get that second one. If you're eligible for that third vaccine, get that third one. Keep your mask on when you're going into indoor settings. Create safer indoor spaces. We've heard it all before.

So there are things you can't do at an individual level. And luckily, there's nothing new. The interesting thing is that at a country or at a global level, obviously, there's room for improvement and room for change. And you know, this highlights one of those tremendous needs for improving access and uptake of vaccines in countries with limited access, primarily low income countries. And, you know, yet, you've heard this time and time again, people on media and social media saying vaccine equity, get vaccines, the rest of the world. Here's an example of why we should.

And listen, maybe this is a nasty variant. Maybe it is. We don't know. But even if it isn't, what a great wake up call to say we've got to really improve on this front. You know, even South Africa, which is, you know, one of the best positioned countries in South Africa, a continent, or in Africa as a whole, a continent that's been, you know, devastated by poor vaccination rates.

Even in South Africa, the vaccination rate's only around 30, 35%. Yeah. And they have access. The interesting thing is South Africa actually has access to vaccines like they they do have access to vaccines and and you know it's not i don't like how sometimes we portray you know oh poor africa like there's good scientists smart hard way like it's it's not all have-nots uh you know and and it's not fair to portray them as such and and they're battling the exact same things that we're battling here misinformation and

disinformation and rumors and whatnot the same thing that we have here it's where there's more similarities than differences um let me talk about um about boosters and how they play into this latest scenario. I got boosted last week. I'm over 70, so I fit in the categories that were allowing it. But there is increased talk, and I think even you were a part of it in the last few days, saying, you know, we got to open it up. We got to get more people boosted. We got to lower that age from 70 and over to 50 or over or lower. I mean, there are parts of the world where it's like, you know, over 17 and you get your booster.

Where are we and why are we holding back? I know it's different in certain parts of the country. Like, it's a provincial thing because there are provinces where you can get boosted over the age of 17. But in the most populous, not yet. No, I'm with you. Okay, so here's the part of the conversation where I'm going to piss everybody off. And I don't mean to, but like, you know, unfortunately, nuance matters. So a couple of points.

There's an understanding of the true medical need and the true public health need for boosters. There's an understanding of the true global need for vaccines. Can we actually do several things simultaneously and do them well? So let's break this down. Number one, the most simplest terms. Do we all need a third dose of the vaccine right now? The answer is still no, we don't. Do some of us need a third dose of the vaccine right now?

The answer is yes, And we could probably expand on that. Do other countries in the world desperately need first doses of the vaccine and second doses? The answer is overwhelmingly yes. And we can still contribute to this. So if I was in charge, which of course I'm not, this is what I would do. Number one, you have to acknowledge the global data that's emerging that demonstrates some slight waning in immunity to infection with time. And we have to look at the data as well, demonstrating that even with some waning immunity to infection, there's still pretty significant positive benefit and protection against severe infections, hospitalizations, and deaths. Yes, you might see some good data that demonstrates a

slight waning in that, especially in older populations. But, you know, it's fair to say that, you know, if we were to prioritize who should get a booster, it would certainly be select populations like older populations, immun would certainly be select populations like older populations, immunocompromised populations, etc. It's also important to acknowledge that we didn't do things in Canada the same as they did elsewhere in the world. We separated our doses in many people by greater than three or four weeks, and doses were separated by two-ish, three-ish months or so. So, we can not ignore international data, use it to help guide us, but also look at our local data that we have here in Ontario,

BC, Quebec, there's some really good data. And when you use our Canadian local data, my interpretation of this, and again, everyone might look at it slightly differently, but my interpretation is, we should be expanding eligibility for third doses, not to everybody, but to a 50-year-old and up population. Some people might look at that data and say a 60-year-old and greater population. Listen, we can debate this, and that would be fine. But I look at it, I think 50-plus would be reasonable. Now, that obviously can change with time. And you can always change and you should always change and adapt your policy

based on emerging data. But if the question is right now in November of 2021, who should get a booster, I would actually have said in September of 2020, who should get a booster probably should have expanded to the 60 plus and the 50 plus crabs. But again, that's not the 20 and 30 and 40 year olds. That doesn't personally, I don't think that makes sense at this point in time. Again, some people will send me hate mail for that. Great. Mazel Tov, we're all very proud of you for having an opinion. We're all entitled to an opinion.

But based on the local data, I don't see that at this point. Next point, vaccine equity. The WHO has asked for a moratorium on widespread community-based booster vaccines until at least 2022. We can accommodate that, and we should accommodate that. We should not, again, this is my opinion, and this is where people get mad, I don't think we should be giving widespread booster vaccines in Canada, because A, the WHO has asked us not to, and we can help support global vaccine efforts. B, there probably isn't even the need based on our Canadian local data. However, there still is the need to expand eligibility, I think, to the 50 plus crowd. And then the third point is, we certainly do have vaccines in freezers, we certainly do have access to more vaccines. People somehow suggest that you cannot ship frozen vaccines to other parts of the world. You can. You absolutely can. You certainly can ship frozen vaccines. You just can't. So, you know, you can do multiple

things simultaneously. Number one, expand boosters to the 50 plus or 60 plus crowd, whatever, we can debate that. Number two, support global vaccine equity. Number three, adhere to the WHO request for moratorium on widespread community-based boosters. And of course, number four, expand eligibility with time when we actually need to expand eligibility, which we probably will. Listen, at some point over the next year, many or most adults will get a booster and will need one, but we don't all need it now. That's a very long-winded answer, but I think that's the right approach. You know, I read over the weekend that we've literally got millions of vaccines ready to go that are, you know, frozen at the moment. But we've got so many that we've had a million

that we've had to destroy because they've gone beyond the best before date. Unacceptable. Like, unacceptable. We can talk, you know, talk back and forth about eligibility and sending overseas. But, like, the true wrong answer is having these expire. That is, I mean, that's just disgraceful. That's just disgraceful. That's just disgraceful. When there's such a need, we can't figure out a way to put those to good use, either in arms in Canada or in arms elsewhere.

Like that is not, that is not acceptable. And if you think that's bad in Canada, take a peek south at the millions and millions and millions of doses that have expired and gone to waste there i mean that's that's shameful that's that's shameful yeah they had tens of millions of doses of astrazeneca which they never used right yeah i think they did ship some of them out but uh but they had to destroy our names too it's awful like that is just that's not like, you know, that old line. I don't, I'm not going to go that direction. Use them.

Just use them. Put them in arms. And it does, you know, if they're not your arms, then put them in someone else's. Well, who wears that? I don't know whether you want to get into that, but I mean, is that a, is that Ottawa? Is that the provinces? I mean, who wears the fact that we've had to destroy vaccines? I don't know. And I don't want to oversimplify it because it's probably multifactorial.

And that's a cop-out word to use when you don't know the answer. There probably are several layers at the political and public health level that could have either communicated or coordinated better to prevent something like that from happening. And we know exactly what vaccines we have. We know exactly where they are. We know exactly what their storage requirements are and what their expiration dates are. We know how to mobilize them and have the capacity to mobilize. And we also know we have many willing people who would accept them. This is an unforced error. There's no way we should have had a million doses expire. probably more. Last point. Last week we started to see the 5 to 11-year-olds getting vaccinated.

And, you know, from what I saw watching on television and reading the paper, it was pretty impressive the way a lot of this was handled and the way they readied various places for the kids and their arrival. Does this latest story have any impact on that situation of the vaccination of young kids? With the Omicron? Yeah. Maybe. I mean, no one would bat an eye if we somehow detected this variant in Canada. I mean, we're going to probably see news stories all over next week saying, oh, we detected it in this country, in that country, in this country.

Like, no one would be surprised if it's more widespread than where it is. I mean, I think at the end of the day, and again, this is speculation, we need data. But I think at the end of the day, the vaccines are still going to be very protective, maybe not as protective. Maybe it has some waning effectiveness, but it's still going to be effective. You know, yet another reason to vaccinate the 5 to 11s, yet another reason to have data driven, data driven third dose strategy. Yet another reason to continue to lower barriers and make vaccines accessible to adults who have not yet received a first and a second dose. Let's keep going. We know these vaccines are safe.

They're effective. They work really well. We've got them. Let's put them to good use or give them away. All right. Well, I know it's a busy weekend for you. You're on call most of the weekend, and I appreciate, as always, to get you to squeeze a little time to talk to us.

The bottom line, I guess, is that we should be prepared for more stories on this latest variant to come out in the days ahead. But, you know, stay rational, stay calm, and we'll see how things go. We'll be okay. Yeah? You're still feeling good about that? I do. I mean, even if it's more transmissible, even if it erodes some of the effectiveness of the vaccines,

like even in the, probably in the worst case scenario, again, I'm speculating here, like I'll follow the data just like everyone else, but I really think we're going to be okay in Canada. I mean, we just keep vaccinating, keep wearing our masks, and keep doing what we can to get others vaccinated here in Canada. I mean, we just keep vaccinating, keep wearing our masks and keep doing what we can to get others vaccinated here in Canada and others vaccinated elsewhere in the world. And we'll get through this. Would you get on a plane and fly somewhere exotic or not even exotic for the holidays? Well, as the token Jewish guy at the Toronto General Hospital. I work every Christmas, so I'm not going anywhere.

But I mean, I don't know. Like anything else, tough blanket statements. Some people are comfortable doing this. Some people are not. The impact of a positive case is different on every family and on every individual. We know many people are going to go away. Some people, not so much. Last you know we chatted last time we chatted i was coming back from west africa yeah uh i was actually worried that they were going to make a ban on all of africa and i was going to have to quarantine because that wasn't that long ago but they didn't uh for work i travel i mean i'm planning on taking another barring any unforeseen disasters i'm planning on i'm heading back to west africa in uh january i think so like i'm i'm still going but uh what's right for me doesn't mean it's right for everybody I'm planning on, I'm heading back to West Africa in January, I think.

So like I'm, I'm still going, but what's right for me doesn't mean it's right for everybody else. I'm going for work. Do all the rising numbers of late worry you or surprise you, or was this kind of expected? We knew those numbers were going to go up. We knew it. We've been talking about it since the summer. It's fall and winter on the horizon.

People are indoors, innumerable opportunities for the virus to be transmitted. And here we are. The key here is blunting the amplitude of these waves. And depending on where you are in the country, we're doing a mild to moderate job in mild to moderately good job in doing that. I'm very skeptical of predictions that are greater than three or four weeks in the future because it's just hard to know and human behavior changes and that modifies the the case numbers and the severity is but but uh so far we're doing okay you're starting to see quebec hover at around the 1 000 new cases per day ontario's flirting with a thousand new cases per day it's's flirting with 1,000 new cases per day.

It's probably going to go up over the holidays as we have all these gatherings. You know, another reason to really get doses into kids, first doses and second doses into unvaccinated adults, and third doses into an eligible population with an expanded but not free-for-all eligibility for those third doses. I think we can get by this winter without overwhelming our health care system overwhelming our health care systems would be a

failure that would be a policy failure because that's completely avoidable we have the vaccines we know about ventilation we know about masking we have vaccine certificate systems we've got all that in place we might need public buy-in and public education but like that would be a failure if if if our health care systems were were crushed because of this well let's hope that's not the case um dr bogach once again uh thank you so much for this really appreciate it and uh we'll see when it is we talk to you next okay have a great weekend nice Nice to chat. You too. Take care.

Bye-bye. Dr. Isaac Bogoch. And I'll tell you one thing. When this is finally over, and it will be over at some point, it'll be over. But when it is finally over, I'm going to miss these fairly regular Monday conversations with some of the top epidemiologists in the country.

They have been fabulous. And they instill such confidence in us that they're working hard at it, that they know the direction in which they're going. They're not perfect, but they are on spot in terms of being willing to answer the questions um and i've you know i've appreciated all of their uh all of the opportunities to talk to each one of them in different parts of the country all all through this um okay uh there is one more thing on this subject that i need to tell you about. A little more background and perspective.

It'll only take a minute or two, but first, we're going to take this quick break. And Peter Mansbridge back once again with The Bridge. And we haven't heard that music in a while. Nice to hear it again. Just wanted to check in to let you know that you could be listening on Sirius XM, Channel 167, Canada Talks, or you could be listening on any one of our podcast platforms. Wherever you're listening and however you're listening, we appreciate your time your time all right here's the one other thing i wanted to mention because there's been some discussion about this and some confusion about this over the last few

days there's one thing about the variant and its possibilities the other thing is about the name how'd they come up with omicron well you've probably heard a few things and you're probably what you've heard is probably right but it's a little more involved in that the covid19 variant that emerged in south africa was named after the 15th letter of the greek alphabet this is in the New York Times yesterday. The naming system announced by the WHO in May makes public communication about variants easier and less confusing. For example, the variant that emerged in India a few months ago is not popularly known as B.1.6172, rather it's known as Delta, the fourth letter of the Greek alphabet.

There are now seven variants of interest or variants of concern, and they each have a Greek letter, according to a WHO tracking page. Some other variants with Greek letters do not reach those classification levels. And the WHO also skipped, WHO also skipped two letters just before Omicron, new and Xi, leading to speculation about whether Xi was avoided in deference to the Chinese president, Xi Jinping. New is too easily confounded with new,

said a WHO spokesman. And Xi was not used because it is a common last name, not just with the Chinese president. This spokesperson added that the agency's best practices for naming diseases suggest avoiding causing offense to any cultural, social, national, regional, professional, or ethnic group. Some of the better-known variants, such as Delta, rose to a variant of concern. Others in that category were named Alpha,

Beta, and Gamma. Others that emerged, which were variants of interest only, were named Lambda and Mu. Other Greek letters were used for variants that did not meet those thresholds, but Nu and Ji were the only ones that were skipped. Now, don't you feel better for knowing that? There'll be a test on that shortly, so I hope you are listening closely. All right. One other thing. Last night was the beginning of the Festival of Lights, Hanukkah,

which kicks off eight days, full days starting today, of the Festival of Lights. And so it's in many ways the beginning of the holiday season for various faiths around the world. And so if Hanukkah is part of your day, we wish you the best on it. Tomorrow, Tuesday, I don't know what we'll talk about. Who knows the way the news is.

It could be any number of different things. Wednesday, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth. Bruce will be by. Thursday, we'll see. You may be sending something. You may be right now, in this very moment, sitting at your laptop, writing a letter to the Mansbridge Podcast at gmail.com

about what you want to say, what point you want to make, what question you may have. And then Friday, of course, is Good Talk with Chantelle Iber and Bruce Anderson. And last, very last point, if you're still looking for a book plate for Off the Record, this is the week to send. Make sure you send it in. Send in proof of purchase plus your address, and I will get out a book plate to you.

They've been going like hotcakes. Hotcakes. All weekend I was mailing off book plates, signed book plates for those who wanted it for my new book, Off the Record. If you haven't heard about it, you should probably check it out. It's not bad. A lot of nice reviews, and it's still very firmly placed on the bestsellers list. Chasing my good buddy, Rick Mercer

and Mark Messier. So the three M's, Mercer, Messier and Mansbridge at the top of the bestseller list. How's that? Not bad. All right, I'm Peter Mansbridge. This has been The Bridge.

Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you again in 24 hours. All right, I'm Peter Mansbridge. This has been The Bridge. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you again in 24 hours.