The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - What's It Really Like To Be A Woman in the Federal Cabinet?

Episode Date: October 26, 2021

The new cabinet was sworn in today and as expected, half are women, and some of the top jobs in cabinet are filled by women.  So what is that really like?  What's remembered from day one through the often challenging times in cabinet.  Catherine McKenna had two senior positions in Justin Trudeau's first two governments but chose not to run this time.  Today she's our guest for the inside story of what that time in power was like, especially for a woman.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. It's Cabinet Day, and a lot of the key, powerful ministers are women. We'll talk about that with a woman from the last cabinet. Our podcast is brought to you by Questrade, Canada's fastest-growing and award-winning online broker. Tired of getting dinged with fees every time you buy or sell U.S. stocks? Well, good news. With Questrade, you don't have to. You can hold U.S. dollars in your trading account and avoid expensive, forced conversion fees every time you trade U.S. stocks. Switch today and get up to $50 worth of free trades. Visit Questrade.com to open an account and use

promo code QUEST. Conditions apply. And hello there again, Peter Mansbridge here. Yes, we're going to talk a lot about cabinet today and especially the impact of women in the cabinet and the impact on women in the cabinet. And we've got a great guest to talk about that. And that, of course, if you haven't already guessed, is Catherine McKenna, who held two key portfolios in the Trudeau governments of 2015 and 2019. She was the environment minister in those first four years of the first Trudeau government, Justin Trudeau government, and she was minister of infrastructure in the second Trudeau government. So she's got experience not only about what it's like around the table for a woman in a senior role,

but also the impact for women outside of the political sphere that it had, especially on her and apparently on other women in that cabinet as well. We'll talk about all of that with Catherine McKenna, who today is in New York, where she's working as she has so often worked on the climate change file. So we'll talk to Catherine McKenna in a couple of minutes, but I've got a first deal with a few things. One thing in particular that I think it's important for me. It's important for journalism.

It's important for this podcast that you concede when you're wrong on something. It doesn't matter how small it is. Say, you know what? that you concede when you're wrong on something. It doesn't matter how small it is. Say, you know what, I got that fact wrong. Because I believe that, in fact, helps your credibility in the long run. If you're going to find even the smallest little things that there were problems with, then that means when the bigger things happen as well,

you're going to deal with those too. If in fact they happen. So what's the small thing I'm talking about? It came up last week. I was talking about this. I'm in Scotland, right? I'm still in Scotland. I'm going to be here for a couple of weeks.

And I was talking about the Carnegie Libraries because we're doing a special show on libraries coming up probably next week. But we're talking about the Carnegie Libraries, because we're doing a special show on libraries coming up probably next week. But we're talking about the Carnegie Libraries, and there have been either at least 2,000 around the world, many in Canada, many in southwestern Ontario, many in the area immediately around Stratford, where I live, including in Stratford. But lots here in Scotland. Carnegie was from Scotland. And I mentioned one in particular, the Carnegie Library in Dingwall, Scotland, which is not far from here.

I'm up near Dornick. Dingwall's about, I don't know, 45 minutes south of Dornick. Anyway, I talked about how in 1962, is what I said, the Beatles played in the Carnegie Library in Dingwall. And how amazing that was. Well, I was wrong. Yes, they did play in Dingwall, in the Carnegie Library, but it wasn't 1962. It was 1963.

As I said, small point, but a point nonetheless. And it was in the first days, the first week of January, 1963, that the Beatles went up to Dingwall to play a concert. Now, I was down in Dingwall on the weekend. We went down there for a drive. Wanted to try and find this old Carnegie Library. And sure enough, we did. There it was, down one little lane, not far from the, what we call the town hall, we did. There it was down one little lane not far from the,

what we call the town hall, city hall. A beautiful old building, probably 150 years old. And it too is kind of like a town hall. And it said, you know, Dingwall Town Hall or something on the outside. And it was in there that the Beatles had played. But the interesting part of the story doesn't stop there. One of the stories we went into in Dingwall, about a half a block from where the Beatles played,

is an old antique bookstore run by a fairly elderly chap. And I mentioned to him, I said, the Beatles just played over there. He said, oh, yeah, they did. He said it was quite a night. It was early January 1963. And a local band was playing that night too in kind of a big dance that had been advertised for quite a while, a local band.

They were called the Melotones. And they were playing actually not in Dingwall, but just down the road in Strathpeffer. Well, the melatonins were very popular in the Dingwall area, and they attracted 1,000 people to their concert. What about the Beatles? Well, legend has it that there were less than 20 people in attendance to watch the Beatles, January 63.

Now, they were already a name group. They hadn't kind of crossed the Atlantic in terms of that name. That would have come later that year in 63. But they were big time here. And can you imagine? Now, the reports from the local papers say they played a great little concert for the 19 people there. They told stories in between each song.

It was a fun evening. But everyone was down the road at the Melotones concert. I love that story. And they're very proud of that fact. The old librarian, not librarian, the bookstore guy, told me, oh yeah, they still talk about that. It was a great moment for Dingwall. All right. As promised, I'm not going to run through the list of today's cabinet appointments. You've got them handy and everybody's talking about them

on various shows, but what is important to know if you believe in gender parity, is that the cabinet, once again, is basically split between men and women. But what is also interesting to know is some of the senior positions in this cabinet, south of the prime minister, are women. So there's a lot of clout there. And put into positions that need some work and need some cleaning up. They're there.

So what is it like? And what does Catherine McKenna remember about that day when she went into cabinet for the first time? Back in 2015 and how things worked out and what was her advice to women who are going in today? Well, we wanted to talk about that. We tracked her down. She's in New York where she's working on a climate change at the United Nations.

She'll be here in Scotland in another week or so when the big climate conference takes place in Glasgow. So she's out of government, she's out of cabinet, but she is still focused on the environment, as she did for four years as the environment minister. But we wanted to have this conversation, and so I tracked her down before she went out for her morning run in Central Park.

She lives in Ottawa with her kids, but she's down in New York for this UN work, and she goes out and runs through the park, although she said it was raining today. It's raining here in Scotland. But I just saw a guy go past the bridge worldwide headquarters here in Dornock, Scotland. And he was running. He was jogging. So rain won't stop them and I'm sure it didn't stop her. Alright, we're going to take a quick break. Quick pause. when we come back

we'll be talking with Catherine McKenna you're listening to the bridge with Peter Mansbridge So let's go back to 2015. You're sworn into cabinet. You've just won your seat in Ottawa. First woman to win that seat, I believe, that particular seat. And here you're a part of a cabinet that is basically half men and half women. Gender parity. Did it feel like it that day in that swearing-in room? Did it feel like we've attained a certain equality here?

Well, you know, it's a funny thing, Peter, because in the days leading up to the cabinet announcement, there's just so much speculation. At that time, there was a lot of discussion that I didn't really understand. It was like, gosh, how are they going to do this? Where are they going to find the woman? Are the women going to be competent? We had one of my majority, and we had a lot of incredible women. I actually, just me personally, I mean, I'm a woman. I don't every day wake up and say, hey, I'm a woman. And I actually, just me personally, I mean, I'm a woman. I don't every day wake up and say, hey, I'm a woman. I just really, you know, I'd worked really hard

to get elected for two years. And to be honest, I didn't imagine being in cabinet. I just wanted to win my riding. And so I'll even go further back because what happens is we met at the Delta Hotel and I didn't know who else was in cabinet because you're sworn to secrecy thinking that you'll be kicked out if you tell anyone, including other people that you know are probably in. So I, I mean, I showed up and I just remember, I mean, it wasn't even fancy. We just showed up in the entranceway of the Delta and I was like, oh, oh, hey, Scott Bryson, or hey, you know, hard Sajan, or, you know, and it was like that. And you're thinking, wow, like, these are all people you'd met a bit during the campaign or you'd read about, and they were, you know, pretty extraordinary group.

And yes, they were 50% women. But actually, what struck me during the swearing in, and it is really special. I mean, it really, the idea that you are going to be in this position where, you know, you get to build a better Canada. And that's really why I got into politics. I really, I don't mean to be partisan, but I just really didn't like the previous government. And, you know, you kind of look around. And it struck me not even so much that it was half women, because maybe I take those things a bit more for granted than folks do, but that it was a huge diversity. quadriplegic. My friend Carla Coltrane, who I'd known from swimming days, she's legally blind, but also a human rights lawyer. We just had huge diversity. And it just felt really good because I thought like, these are good people who, you know, got into politics, they want to make a difference.

And it's hard, like flip, it was hard for two years. And your family makes sacrifices and you look around. And I remember seeing Christian with her son. She was holding her son. My son was exactly the same age. He was five. I was holding him too. He was slightly petrified by the whole thing. And I'm sure, you know, in retrospect, you'd realize, well, this is the beginning of a journey, but it was, yeah, it was just an amazing experience to realize that this was going to be a small group of people. You know, of course, you have caucus and the caucus is hugely important. But this was going to be a small group of people that you were going to work really hard with. I didn't know what the with meant because I'd never

been in cabinet. But I just knew we had a huge opportunity. And I just felt super honored to be there. And, you know, kind of overwhelmed because as I said, we worked for two years every day. I just worked to win the ride. I didn't imagine, you know, this day, but it was, it was really amazing. So tell me, you know, briefly, what is that day one like? I mean, after you go through the pomp and pageantry of a swearing in and the ceremony attached to that and family all around you, you got to go to work. Well, you actually do. And so what happens then? And, you know, each time can be a bit different.

But after the swearing in, you know, your family, you know, goes off and you meet your deputy minister. And, you know, that can seem like, you know, you're just meeting, you know, the, you know, the equivalent of the public service. But that person is incredibly important to you. And you don't, you know, when you're a new minister, you might not exactly understand how Ottawa works. But the public service is critical to getting your agenda and there's a trifecta I've always said. If you're going to be successful, for example, getting a climate plan for Canada, which was really hard and it was across government that we had to work, you needed to have your deputy on your side and you needed to have your chief of staff on your side. So you might

meet your chief of staff that day. You know, there's, you tend, I was, I was, you know, there was a chief of staff who was appointed to me, but you need to develop a relationship with those two people. And it has to be that you're extremely honest, that you're extremely clear on what all three of you try to do, because you all have different roles. Like if you're a minister, yes, you're the decision maker, ultimate decision maker, but the public servants, they give, I mean, it's sad, they give you frank and fearless advice, and then they loyally implement, but they have to get the whole machinery of government working on your agenda. And then, of course, your chief of staff deals with the prime minister's office, with other offices, with stakeholders.

So it's really critical that a relationship. And when I got the climate plan, that's like when I realized that it wouldn't have worked if it wasn't the three of us. The other thing I did, which I've told new ministers that this is an idea, I sent a message to the public servants that I was going to be working with on the first day. I asked my deputy, I drafted it and gave it to my deputy. Because certainly in 2015, I think public servants felt a bit beaten down. And I wanted them to know that I did respect them and that they were going to be a critical part of delivering on our agenda. And then the final thing, and I've given this advice, and it depends on your level of confidence because you don't necessarily know your portfolio, but I think it's kind of good in your head to know the three things you want to do really early on. Now,

I mean, it's a bit of a rest because journalists will say, and what are you going to do in your portfolio? But at the highest level, if you're able to say three things, people are like, okay, that minister knows what they're doing. Now, you might change your three things later. But I mean, they're very high level things. So, I mean, it was very clear when I was the new minister of environment and climate change that we need to get an ambitious Paris Agreement. And then we're going to have to get a climate plan in Canada. And then we were going to have to redo our Environmental Assessment Act and protect more nature. So I kind of threw those out there, I think, pretty early days.

But, I mean, it's also time to just take it in as well and realize, like, this is going to be the beginning of a roller coaster ride and you can't imagine where it's going to end up well for you you know it was a roller coaster ride you had two portfolios in the six years you were there um environment obviously and infrastructure and uh you made your mark in different ways on both those portfolios. But the mark that you also made was being a woman in Parliament, in cabinet, and dealing with some pretty ugly stuff that you had to deal with, not inside Parliament, or perhaps that occurred as well, but mainly whether it was social media or whether it was protests or demonstrations when you turn up in different places.

Talk to us for a moment about that. And, you know, was that an isolated thing for you? Or is that what women still have to put up with in senior positions in government like you had? Well, I think it was very surprising um as i said i didn't i just came into politics to make a difference now part of my thinking about running when i had some doubts i said like look we need women to run and i can't be you know i have the opportunity i've run an organization i had a i had to organize and had a fundraiser so i mean it did occur to me that it was a little bit on women you need to step up and if i couldn't do it, then, you know, you know, it was going to be hard for many women. But I was just trying to do my job, Peter. I really wanted to get a climate plan. I knew it was going to be really hard. I was well aware that a price on pollution was going to

be the hardest thing, but I did not expect to have to carry the mantle of being a woman and get attacked because I was a woman. It was very gendered. The things they attacked, it was kind of silly, but you know, calling me climate Barbie. And, and I, I laugh in a way, and it's easier for me to laugh now, maybe because I'm out, but I just never played with Barbies when I was a kid. Now I don't care that other people play with Barbies. I just didn't play with Barbies. That was not my thing. I was more likely to be throwing a football around or going out in the woods behind

my parents' house. But that was strange. And for a while, it bugged me. It did bug me. But my team was kind of explicit about how don't ignore it. You should just ignore it. And in a little bit of the lesson I've learned, because I know why they said that. They didn't want me to look like it was hurting me or bugging me or give them any pleasure. But they also didn't want me to look like a woman who was weak or maybe shrill for folks out. And I remember like, I'm actually, it's funny because I'm in New York right now at the UN for a big high level meeting on climate. And it was, that was the first day I called it out was when I came back after a really long day, I was exhausted. And I saw my Twitter had exploded

and I was like, Oh, I wonder what's up here here and we were sitting in the lobby of the hotel and and and jerry ritz i mean not to single him out but he did it he called me like he was a former minister himself was a parliamentarian he made this comment about like you know something about me you know being you know a climate barbie and i just said to my team i'm sorry sorry dudes i'm just going to do my tweet. They kind of know with me, like, there's a point where I'm just going to, you know, it's fine. They've given me advice about what to do. And I'm just going to do what I think is right. And I called him out, but I did it in a way, like, you know, I did it in a way that I thought about it. I said, like, would you say this to your mother, sister, girlfriend? No, I'm just going't do it to me or something like that. And it went viral.

And the good thing about that, in a way, was I think then Canadians started, some Canadians started waking up to the fact like, the heck's going on here? Like, she's just trying to do a really hard job. Even if I don't agree with her, like, could you know call her out on policy but don't be you know making fun or belittling her and so that was kind of the start um where i was a little more assertive about it and a little more aware that it was you know it was having an impact including on my credibility um and that's what you've got in politics right you know you have to be able to sell what you're doing and people have to believe in you. But then, I mean, unfortunately, it got worse. And is it worse? Like, was it worse for me? I think, you know, no, I think lots of women get it. And actually, a lot of, you know, if you're also a visible minority, like I know Harj Sajjan got a ton, Ahmed Hussain. So it's, we have to be careful to not just say it's about women. It's anyone maybe who threatens the status quo. And it's very weird, like why being a woman in

politics threatens the status quo? I don't know. Some people, it's still hard for them. But being in climate, it was especially bad. There is a concentric circle of women, people who are misogynists and who are climate deniers. Now, that's not everyone. Some people are just worried about their job or upset, or they've been riled up by conservatives who say that I'm trying to kill the economy and take away their work. But there is something going on there. But I realized that it grew, and it grew not just for me but for other women. And the rise of social media is a real problem because I think people feel emboldened.

They think that things that you wouldn't say at someone's doorstep, you think you can go yell it on Twitter or Facebook, and then you get a crowd of people who are cheering you on. They're like, this is amazing. I'm going to like this. And it actually fosters the algorithms will send you if you don't like Catherine McKenna or you don't like this person will send you more stuff about how people don't like that person. journalists. They've really been attacked too. So I think that that's just the reality of politics. And that's why I do call it out. I've done a number of interviews. It's not that I love talking about my security situation or how it impacted my staff or my kids. But I do think Canadians don't want this and don't think it's reasonable to expect someone will go into politics. But we need to change it. It's not good enough that people say it's, we don't like this. The only way we can, we can prevent it is actually taking action. And I

think it's, it's a complicated piece, but we need to act and we need for Canadians to say it's, that's not what we want in our country. And I've heard that. I've heard that everyone's so nice. I meet people in the streets. They're like, thank you for what you did, but they always go back to, and I'm really sorry. And I don't think people should feel sorry. Like I, you know, that was, it was an unfortunate part of it, but I did love politics and I, I really, you know, really felt like we were doing something important. And so I don't every day think, oh gosh, it was a real burden. You know, I'm a little bit relieved that I don't have to put up with it anymore, but, uh, it's just unfortunate that comes with it.

Did you ever feel unsafe? Did you worry about your security? Yeah. I remember one drive home from Toronto with my kids, and there was someone who had hurled abuses to my staff. And I only found out about that because it went viral on social media. And I saw journalists had retweeted it. And I was like, wait, wait a minute.

Is that like someone at my office yelling at my staff person and my staff wanted to protect me? Cause there's so many incidents now. Some of them are small. Like when someone sends you something really bizarre, some of them are bigger when you have issues um and and serious threats but there i was with my kids and this person was still in ottawa and uh i was furious like i was just angry i was just so angry because the problem

is when it involves your family your home home. That's a whole other level. And I've had incidents where people came by my house, took pictures, like just weird things. My neighbors, again, this is about my neighbors. I have good neighbors, so my neighbors were always on the lookout. Ottawa police in particular, they were there. When someone wrote that terrible word, the C word, that I won't repeat on my office, it was the first time they'd ever treated that kind of incident as a hate crime against a woman.

And that's actually changed how they approach incidents. So, I mean, I knew there were people there, but the problem is you're just trying to protect your family, right? Like, oh my gosh. I was like, this is too much. And I remember I was getting out of the car talking to the RCMP and I was really not happy. It was like, I mean, I felt kind of badly for them, but I was like, okay, we all need to think this seriously. This is not okay. And so I think that's the challenge, right? Like the challenge is you're asking a lot people. And I want good people to go in. And I know people say to me, gosh, I've just seen what you went through. I wouldn't go in. People ask me, though, would I have done it? 100%. 100%. We were able to get a price on pollution across the country. We were able to develop a climate plan. I was able to help negotiate the Paris Agreement. Like, I would never, no one's taking that away from me because that's what they want, right? These people who go after you, they want you to back down.

But I do think it's unreasonable to expect people to go through it. So we got to fix it. What is your piece of advice, if there was one piece of advice on this issue, as opposed to, you know, whatever portfolios they're getting. What's your one piece of advice to women who are going into cabinet today and some of them for the first time? What's your one piece of advice based on your experience that you give them? I mean, you have to take security seriously. And people do. People don't always take it seriously.

I think it took a long time for people to understand that threats online or these individual threats, they kind of add up to something. And it's OK to be worried about that. And it's OK to share that with your colleagues. Because I remember one session at Cabinet and it was years in, like it might have been year four. We all talked about it and no one realized that everyone was really concerned about it. Now, having said that, I mean, just put measures in place and, you know, and the House of Commons security, the RCMP, often the local police, they've really stepped up. But beyond that, I mean, I wouldn't overplay it because it's a thing, but it's, you know,

I think the most important thing when you're a thing but it's you know i think the most important thing when you're a minister it's not even about being a female minister is just to realize you're there for a really limited amount of time so get to work and do the hard things like sometimes in politics people are scared of doing the really hard things but you're gonna get flack anyway like i was gonna get flack on all the parts of our climate. Let's be serious. And so go for it. And I don't know. That's the way I live my life. Like I just am like, I don't know, we're going to do really big things and we're going to try. And if you don't try, you end up doing small things,

but then you end up leaving. And I'm well aware. I mean, I chose to leave. And so I felt that I'd done everything I came in to do, but you have to realize how special it is and the privilege that you have to be in these positions and that you actually have power. I mean, it comes with great responsibility, but it means that you should be thinking about every day about how do you deliver and also about how it's going to impact on people. Because at the end of the day, that's why you're in politics. You're to build a better Canada and to support people and so um that's my bigger message like you know enjoy the day it's amazing day but get to work immediately and be very clear on what you want to do and work with your deputy minister work with your chief of staff and just get it done

and you know it's going to be hard you're going And, you know, it's going to be hard, you're going to take flack, like there's going to be these other issues. But just realize it then goes and you're out of politics. And so this is a moment in time and very, very fortunate. And we live in a really great country. And I just, it was always amazing. day. I'd like, or when I go into the house of commons, even though I knew my, I might get yelled every single question conservatives about carbon pricing. I was always in awe. I was like, gosh, like, this is amazing. So you represent people. You're elected to do that. Live in a democracy. I've lived in many places that are democracies and, uh, you know, just enjoy it,

but take it seriously, work really hard. And at the day, at the end of the day, remember you won't be there forever. So just get it done. Catherine McKenna. It's always great to talk to you. This has been no exception. Enjoy New York. If it's possible not to, I'm sure it isn't New York. It's kind of pouring rain, but I will be checking

out what's going on in Ottawa. Don't worry too at the same time. So will I here in Scotland where it's also pouring rain. That's all good. It's probably very similar. That's okay. Thanks so much. Really appreciate you taking the time on this.

It's great. Thanks, Peter. Catherine McKenna talking to us from New York today where she's dealing with things, climate change at the UN today, but with an eye on Ottawa, as so many people have done today. Watching the new cabinet being put together, who's in it, where they come from, what's the geographic balance, what's the gender balance, what's the racial balance,

who's in what portfolio, who holds power, who got dropped. So it's all, you know, it's one of those fascinating political days. But I loved listening to her on this topic because there are a number of ways of getting at a day like today. And I think this was an important one for all of us. All right. Before we go, this is an important day on the calendar, at least on my calendar. I had it circled a long time ago. October 26, 2021.

Why is that important? Well, it's important because of this. Here's another date, November 22nd, 1963. And I'm sure most of you, many of you know what that date was. That's the day John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas by Lee Harvey Oswald. Now those are the facts as they were presented. A lot of people don't believe those facts. And they believe in conspiracy theories and that we don't know the full truth of what happened that day. And part of the reason we don't know the full truth is that all the

documentation for that day from the CIA, from the FBI, from various government sources and police forces has not been released. It's still being held back. There's huge sections redacted. So what's that got to do with October 26, 2021, today? That was the promise. The latest time it was made,

that on this day, everything would be released. There would be not a single document, piece of paper, redaction that wouldn't have been cleared up by today. Not going to happen. It's not going to happen because President Biden, who was part of the original plan back in the 90s to say everything must be released by this certain date, he was one of the signatories to that deal.

But he has said, no, you know what, it's not ready. We can't let it out yet. COVID has held back timing on stuff, and so it's going to be another't let it out yet covid is you know held back timing on stuff and so it's going to be another year and a half at least before we can release all the documentation the number of times this has been delayed was just to me there's always going to be a reason there's always going to be an excuse and it does leave you wondering why what are they what are they holding back? What can possibly be in that documentation?

Well, I'll tell you one thing. First of all, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I believe it happened the way the Warren Commission said it happened, all those years ago. One gunman, nutcase, Lee Harvey Oswald, on the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository building, I've been there a couple of times, fired from an open window on that floor and killed the president. And if you think, man, he must have been a heck of a shot, it's actually not that big a deal, that shot.

Even using the old gun he used, which I think was a Second World War gun. But it's not that far. It was a moving target, yes, but it was moving away, and so therefore it really wasn't moving a lot. It was more or less in sight in the sense that it was, even though it was moving, it was still kind of locked in on the shot. Anyway, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about, and it's in my book, actually. Have I told you about my book, off the record? Canadian bestseller was number one last week.

And I'm proud of that fact. But anyway, one of the anecdotes I tell in that story is about a session, a meeting I had with John McCain. I won't go through all the details on it, but he was standing up applauding a speech I'd just given, which is ironic, really. But it was on the 50th anniversary of John Kennedy's assassination. John McCain was standing there applauding me as I came off the stage.

And he came up and he kind of put his arm around me and he said, that was a great speech, kid, or son. And I thought, wow, John McCain saying that to me. And then he grabbed me a little closer, and he said, yeah, but what the hell was Kennedy doing in that embassy, the Soviet embassy, and the Cuban embassy in Mexico City a couple of weeks before the assassination? And I looked at John McCain, and I said, don't, you're kidding, right? You too are a conspiracy theorist?

And he said, until somebody tells me exactly what he was doing there, I think there was more to that moment than we all know right now. And then we had a great picture of the two of us taken together, and that's in the book too. So even John McCain, and this wasn't that long ago, it was after he'd run for president. I'll always remember that.

Anyway, enough said. Tomorrow, it's Wednesday, smoke mirrors and the truth. Bruce Anderson, or as he's known here in Scotland as Lord Bruce of Duff House, don't ask. He'll be with us. He's back in Canada now. He was here last week. And we'll hook up for a little chatter about, I imagine,

we'll talk a little bit about the cabinet shuffle. But I'm sure there are other things on his mind as well, and we'll get to those. Thursday could be any number of things, including your thoughts, so don't be shy. A couple of great topics in the last two days. History yesterday with Dan Snow, the history guy, and today with Catherine McKenna about women in power. So if you have thoughts

on either one of those issues, don't be shy. The Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com. The Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com. Send your thoughts along. And we just may make your turn out of it on Thursday. Friday, good talk with Chantelle Hebert and Bruce Anderson. So join us for all that.

Looking forward to giving it to you. from here in Darnock, Scotland. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you again in 24 hours. Thank you.