The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - What's Really Going On Inside the Gaza Peace Talks?

Episode Date: February 26, 2024

They've been going on for months now, but what's really happening inside the Gaza Peace Talks and are things close to resolution. We've been here before but never clinched a deal. Could this be different? Janice Stein is with us for her regular Monday briefing.  Plus we reveal our question of the week!

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. What's really happening inside those peace talks on Gaza? Janice Stein takes us there. Coming right up. And hello there, welcome to Monday. Peter Mansbridge here in Stratford, Ontario. Looking forward to our regular Monday discussion with Janice Stein, Dr. Janice Stein from the Munk School at the University of Toronto, on the situation in the Middle East.

That's coming up in just a few minutes, but first, as we like to say Monday mornings, a little bit of housekeeping first to set you up for the week. First of all, a little bit of holdover news from last week. If you listened on Thursday, we had a great Your Turn discussion. We kind of labeled it What's on Your Mind? And there were lots of letters on lots of different subjects. But you know what there wasn't on that program? and there were lots of letters on lots of different subjects. But you know what there wasn't on that program?

We didn't name the best letter of the week. The letter that gets a signed copy of one of my books. I don't know whether you noticed that. I'm sure all the letter writers noticed it because they were wondering, so who's the winner, Peter? Well, I thought I'd hold it over until today. Actually, that's not what happened. What happened was I forgot. I forgot.

So here we go. Here's your winner from last week. It's Mike McNaughton in London, Ontario. And I really, there was something about this letter that, maybe it's because I drive back and forth in the country, you know, a couple of times a week, back and forth, Toronto to Stratford. Here's Mike's letter. On what's on your mind?

Reckless driving is on Mike's mind. My family's farm is on the main highway outside of London, and it can be a nightmare trying to move machinery from one field to another. When we're on the highway, we see too many drivers taking big risks to try to pass our machinery. Every time I try to make a left turn crossing the opposite lane to get into our driveway, I'm constantly looking in the mirror, and I'm stressed.

It doesn't matter when I'm completely stopped and indicating to make that left turn. 90% of the traffic behind me keeps and indicating to make that left turn. 90% of the traffic behind me keeps passing and won't let me turn. Farmers aren't perfect either, but they are allowed to use the roads to move machinery. There have been too many fatal accidents in our area the last few months. I'd just like to see more respect on our roads, no matter what you're driving. It seems everyone is always in a rush and drives like they are the only ones on the road. Well, Mike, you

struck a chord with me on that one. And I appreciate it. So do me a favor. Mike McNaughton in London, Ontario. Email me your postal address, and I will get a signed copy of the book out to you in the next couple of days. So what's the question for this week? This week we go back to a specific topic,

and I'm looking for the one thing you would change, if you could, in the way our health care system operates. All right? So what's the one thing you would do to improve health care in Canada? What would that one thing be? One thing. Okay? Not a whole list of things, one thing.

Keep it short, keep it brief, keep it to a paragraph or less, and send it to themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com, themansbridgepodcast at gmail.com. Include your name and the location you are writing from. Okay, one thing you'd do to make health care better in Canada. What would that one thing be? I know it's always on the top of the list. When the pollsters get out there and talk about top issues,

health care is always either at the very top or next to the top of the list. So I'm assuming you have thoughts on this question. That'll be Thursday on your turn. Have the letters, your emails in to me before 6 p.m. Wednesday. All right? 6 p.m. Wednesday, Eastern Time. That's the cut off. Alright. It's time for Dr. Janice Stein.

If you've been following the news, you know last week was a big week on the Ukraine story and we did a special edition last week with Janice on the two-year anniversary as we head into the third year now of the war in Ukraine since the invasion by Russia. Well, the other big story, of course, is the Middle East. And the Middle East is what Janice has been studying all her life. She's a Middle East analyst, conflict management analyst,

talked to by governments and organizations around the world. She's off this week to California for some kind of study group that's going on there on foreign policy, international affairs. But this week, what I wanted to talk about was the, you know, every day you get up, you hear peace talks are continuing, you know, in either Doha or Cairo or Paris, trying to resolve the situation in Gaza. Meanwhile, thousands are dying. Tens of thousands are homeless. Hundreds of thousands need help, humanitarian aid.

So it is a difficult situation. But what's really happening behind those closed doors? That was the idea behind this week's conversation with Dr. Janice Stein. So let's get at it. Let's get at it right now. Here we go. Well, here we are. Another week goes by, and all we keep hearing is negotiations are close. They're getting closer or they're starting to fall apart or there may be some progress.

But we never seem to be getting anywhere. What do we know about what are going on about the nature of the technocratic government that will be set up for Gaza. And what we're seeing, Peter, not for the first time is a deep, deep split in Palestinian politics. And what are the two sides of the split? The first, believe it or not, Hamas is broadly acquiescent to standing back and letting a government of Palestinian technocrats and experts take over. And that's really not a shock because Hamas has not cared deeply about governing in Gaza. You know, the military wing said, well, that's the U.N.'s responsibility. That's not our job.

So who's behind, who's driving these discussions? Well, the Emiratis out in front here. Mahmoud Dahlan, a well-known Palestinian who is in exile, living in Doha, so working very closely with the Amharic, the Saudis behind and the Egyptians together with the United States and Israel. So there's a almost unbelievable convergence of interests here between Hamas who's standing way back, wants a technocratic government and Israel that does not want Abbas and the PLO. And when I say Israel, I should say Netanyahu.

This is a Netanyahu fixation. It's not shared by everybody in Israel. They do not want a bus, so they will settle for technocratic government. That's what these conversations in Paris have been about. They've moved right now to Qatar, and they will probably move early in the week to Cairo, and they are racing against this March 10th deadline,

the beginning of Ramadan. Now who's trying to subvert this? Well, okay. You're losing me a little bit. Okay. So let's take this one step at a time. First of all, what's a technocratic government? What would that look like?

Okay. So those are officials. I hate to say this about my economist friends. Economists, people who know about tax systems, people expert in delivery of humanitarian aid, people who can run municipal services, that kind of technical expertise, competent officials. And the name that comes up again and again is actually a former Palestinian prime minister, Salim Fayyad, but he had worked for the World Bank. So people who are simply technically competent don't have political ambitions. That's the key. Okay.

Don't want to become president of an independent state of Palestine. Okay. And you're telling me that Hamas is willing to allow that to happen? Yeah. So where exactly is the stumbling block? Who's saying no to this? well right that's the interesting story who's saying no right now is president abbas who for obvious reasons that is not the agenda afata um and the PLO, their way of moving forward is Hamas comes in to the PLO, accepts

the Oslo Accord and agrees to abide by all the agreements that the Palestine Authority has agreed to abide by. It's not only Abbas though, who's 87 years old. I think with a little effort could be promoted to honorary forever president where the real power moves to the prime minister. But it's all the would-be successors in Ramallah.

To Mohammed Abbas, who have been waiting and waiting and waiting. And oh, my God, they see the moment coming now and they're going to be displaced by a group of officials. So on a personal level, their ambitions are going to be thwarted. Give me one name. I just don't put a little life on this. Yasser Arafat's nephew. Right?

So we are going back into the decades of Palestinian politics here. But they have a strategic objection to Peter. It's not only political ambitions, although that is always a big driver. They feel

that if a technocratic government is stood up now, for six months, it will become permanent. And Hamas will tacitly agree not to interfere in the streets. That would suit Netanyahu and in effect we would get another compromise made in the heat of war or in the immediate aftermath of war

that would prevent the unification of the West Bank which the Palestine Authority runs and Gaza so all this weekend, if you weren't watching what was happening in Paris, the head of intelligence from the Palestine Authority

was in Amman talking to King Abdullah and Abbas himself was in Amman on Sunday. And I pay attention to this because this is now getting real stakes are real okay and so we are getting closer is what i would say all right let's um let me try to understand what the others would think of this, who are sitting around that table. You've got the Egyptians, Qataris. You gave the nod already to the way the Qataris may feel about this. And obviously the Israelis. Let's start with the Egyptians.

Would they go along with this? They're okay with this? Yeah, they would go along with this. I mean, they were at those meetings and they are key players. And there was even some discussions, and these are not as far as man's, about an Egyptian-trained and U.S.-trained police force. So the Egyptians are clearly

in and for them why does this work? It works for them because that border with Rafah gets stabilized and no Palestinians cross the border. That works for them.

And it works for the Qataris? Yes. And it works for the does it work for the israelis or does it work as you say does it work for netanyahu that's right and it's really important that we keep those two separate it overwhelmingly works for netanyahu because his life ambition has to prevent an independent Palestinian state which joins up the two parts of Palestine, those Palestinians in Gaza, those

in the West Bank. If you get this technocratic government that Hamas passively accepts, his view is that will stretch out, that will stretch out, and he will be able to keep his right-wing extremist coalition going because he will be able to say to them we're postponing an independent palestinian state that's what i was going to ask. The two-state solution issue is not on the table as part of this.

Not this. No, because none of that, in other words, we're at a similar process, only I think people know a lot more this time than they did after the Oslo Accords. There was an interim step coming out of the Oslo Accords. There was an interim step coming out of the Oslo Accords. We're going to stand up a government and that will lead to the ultimate reunification of the two parts of Palestine. This is, we're going to stand up an interim government and we'll talk about the rest later with no specific deadline and

no specific commitments. Does it work for Joe Biden? Yeah. Anything would work for Joe Biden right now. Anything would work for Joe Biden right now, right? I was watching Jake Sullivan yesterday, and they just want it over. Yeah, they just want it over. And their view is if the Egyptians are in and the Saudis are in and the Qataris are in and Hamas is not going to cause trouble, they just want it over.

Where do I sign? Where do I sign? Okay, let me, you know, I don't understand this kind of situation like you understand it. few people do let's face it but when i hear what you're saying it sounds like a perfect the the technocrat government is exactly what's needed now to rebuild the place yeah because you know the financing of it yeah you know the the rebuilding of it everything from you know the living conditions and housing and the plumbing and all of that everything's got to be rebuilt and that's the kind of government you would need to try and make that happen but at a point and you know when haas doesn't want to have anything to do with any of that,

that's not their thing, but at some point that will be delivered. And Hamas will have been rebuilt, you know, militarily, it'll be, be rearmed and ready once again. And we're back to square one. We are, we are. And that's in fact one that now likes it right that's exactly why he likes it because what he has done throughout his prime ministership is bought time bought time over and over and over he's bought time in order to prevent the one discussion that he doesn't want to have. And in that sense, a bus is right.

That's what this is yet again. And even more upset than a bus are that next generation group of successors who thought when a bus finally goes. And we all know a fair amount about this in Canada too. Peter, we've seen some nights of the long nights in this country when a prime minister has stayed too long and the young Turks have said, I'm not waiting anymore. These are kind of universals, frankly, in politics. And so that

group just under him are saying, we're going to miss the moment again. We're going to be sidelined again. And that's his fierce struggle that will play out over the next week to 10 days, which I'm going to

watch with keen interest to see if Abbas, for Abbas and those younger folks to prevail, Hamas has to join the PLO and the Palestinian national movement has to be unified, right? Now, Egypt tried that several times, and they stood up such an agreement,

and it was blown out of the water over fights over budgets. Wouldn't be surprised to hear that one. That's another familiar story, and it actually ended in the attempted assassination of Prime Minister Rami Abdullah. familiar story and it actually ended in the attempted assassination of prime minister rami abdullah so this is a familiar this is a familiar story tragically in palestinian politics that we're watching now yet again this is a replay of what we've seen before. It's on a new story.

Now, these talks have been taking place almost since October 7th in different places, whether it's been in Doha, whether it's been in Paris, whether it's been in Cairo. And obviously, there aren't cameras in the room. Things get out somehow, but in terms of what happened, but can you either tell us what you know is happening inside that room or what you think is happening in that room? Like what is the dynamic, do you think, inside that room? So up till now, Hamas has never been in the room at the same time as Israel has been in the room. Hamas has been in the room with Egypt, with Qatar, with the Emiratis. That's all. Israel's been in the room with Egypt,

with Qatar, with the Emiratis, with the Saudis in the background and the United States pushing really, really hard. And the United States was in the room for this last round. So you're getting these sequence parallel

negotiations. And that's what happened where what came out of one round in Paris the sequence parallel negotiations. And that's what happened, where what came out of one round in Paris moves to the other table where they are in touch with them, us. And you have this back and forth with the common element here trying to craft the solution

with almost an element of desperation, the Egyptians. Everything is at stake for the Egyptians here. The Qataris who are out on a limb in this part of the world because of their long-standing relationship with Hamas. That is not a safe position for the Qataris to be in forever. And the Emiratis

who have in fact, and this was another telling sign that it's getting real, have just agreed to help Egypt to the tune of $35 billion because of their lost

Suez Canal revenues. So that, you know, so Egypt, we need you. We need you to train the police force. We understand you're having a hard time. We'll have a little bit of money delivered in the timely fashion. Help us get there. Do you think somebody chairs these meetings? Yes.

It's often, by the way, and it's interesting who it is, and these are the most powerful players from every country. It is the Egyptian head of intelligence Kamal who is often in the chair when it's the Israelis and the Americans you know it's Bill Burns who is this enormously capable guy

former diplomat now head of the CIA who the president really trusts and it's David Barnea who is the head of the CIA, who the president really trusts. And it's David Barnea, who is the head of the Mossad, who is a professional who's managed somehow to keep his distance from Netanyahu. So these are the most competent people. And it tells you everything about this part of the world. They're the heads of the intelligence agencies.

They all know each other. They've traded information. They'll know each other. They've traded information. They've helped each other out at different points. And when they give their word amongst this group, they keep that word because there's always a tomorrow where they're going to need each other. That's fascinating. Yeah.

John McHenry had nothing on this group. No. I was going to say, I don't, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't seem to remember anything like that before. No. On any kind of situation that's comparable to that. Well, this, the time pressure is intense right now for really three reasons. One, everybody but Israel, everybody but Netanyahu wants to forestall any military offensive in Rafah.

They know they don't have a lot of time. Right. The second is one of them is March the 10th, which is coming. And third, Peter, I wouldn't underestimate the impact of U.S. domestic politics. There is a primary in Michigan and Arab American voters are telling their people they are organizing to write in on their ballot, incomplete, to send a message to Joe Biden. So everybody's on the clock right now, and that's what's creating this intense pressure to get this done in the next 10 days. And do you think getting it done in the shape in the shape of the deal that you've outlined includes a ceasefire yes because well but what kind okay so yes exactly yeah but now what kind

for how long does it include does it meet Hamas's demand for a permanent ceasefire, which is what's held up these hostage negotiations, as well as the technocratic government? No, that's not on the table. It is six weeks. So that, again, allows Netanyahu to accept this and say to his right-wing guys, we haven't agreed to an end to the war. It's six

weeks. We have no problem with a technocratic government. There are officials. And by the way, the hostage negotiations are moving along in a parallel track, not for all hostages though the latest is 40 hostages with a very high ratio of prisoners to be released uh for women soldiers uh it was three to one it will now go up who knows those details are not yet worked out and not yet solved and you might ask it's for our listeners where am i getting all this information right that's and i'll tell you honestly what what i do here and thank god uh for journalists uh in the arab world and in israel who leak like crazy and if you read enough when you're reading the same details from Arab sources and Palestinian sources as you are from Israeli sources, you get a sense that that's where the convergence is coming. Okay, last point on this story. And you mentioned Rafah and the Netanyahu's plan to invade Rafah, where, you know,

just about everybody who's left in Gaza is in Rafah. Yes. What is it, a million and a half people there, which would be disastrous, one assumes, if there was a movement in there, unless there was some protection given for that million and a half people somehow. Do you think Netanyahu is holding that option out and talking about it so publicly because it does force the issue? Yeah.

Well, it certainly forces Hamas's hands, right? And to the extent that Hamas has backed off, we are not going to accept anything but a permanent ceasefire. And that's where the leaks were coming all weekend. They moved now. One Hamas spokesperson denied it, but there's enough noise around that to suggest that, in fact, they are moving. That would be to avoid any Israeli attack on Rafah.

There's no question. There's no question. It just turned the pressure up. Okay, last quick point. My last, last quick point. Do you think, once you go back inside that room, trying to imagine what's happening in that room by those players, do you think there's enough consideration given by those people to the thousands, up to 30,000 now, if you believe the numbers, who've been killed in Gaza and the terrible conditions that exist for those who are still alive. So, you know, of course, as you said, Peter, it's not only 30,000 people who've been killed.

We have almost 70,000 wounded, right? So we are talking about 100,000 who have been killed and wounded. And we have a barely functioning healthcare system, barely. You know, some of the hospitals in northern Gaza have reopened, but they're barely functioning. That's part of the argument for a technocratic government. Officials, hospital administrators, right, hospital administrators, right? Healthcare experts to get a government of people who actually run stuff on the ground in place so that aid can come in.

That is, that's an important part of all of this. And I think that's been a really significant driver for the United States for Egypt and for Arab governments that are responding and rightly so to tremendous pressure from their streets

about the humanitarian disaster that has unfolded in Gaza. You know you mentioned the fact that way there's no public sanitation left, right? Toilets are a big problem. There's a potential spread of contagious disease from the terrible, terrible conditions. If, in fact, we can stand up a government like that in the next 10 days, two weeks,

it will be possible really to flood Gaza with humanitarian aid. So, leave aside the Palestinian politics, which I can tell you are 100 years old. They play themselves out, just as

Israeli politics play themselves out in very predictable ways. We've seen these kinds of inter-Palestinian squabbling, which ultimately has served Palestinians really badly over time. That failure to unify has just been a disaster politically for the Palestinians. But if you're looking at the plight of Palestinians right now in Gaza, this is probably the fastest way to meet the humanitarian needs. And if there is a flood of humanitarian aid moving in and people and, you know,

the hospital administrators and the rebuilding and all of that starting fairly quickly, that will further prevent the end of the ceasefire. That's right. It's hard to imagine the Israeli army going back in there with all these international groups. So that's exactly the argument that's being made. We'll take what we can get right now we'll start to rebel we'll we'll shove humanitarian aid in and then it would be literally impossible for nissan you know to start again but then we leave

that technocratic government in office and the nightmare of the Palestinians. He thought this might be the moment to unify the Palestinians. At the most charitable, Peter, it's going to be put on hold yet again. Okay, we're going to leave it at that for this week in terms of that story. But I'm going to take a quick break, come back, and we'll do a very different kind of what are we missing to close out today's show. But first of all, this quick break.

And welcome back. Our Monday episode of The Bridge. Janice Stein is with us. We've spent a good deal of time talking about the latest situation in terms of the Israel Hamas story and what's happening in Gaza. And we hope that we're on the verge of some kind of resolution there. We'll see how these next few days turn out. Okay, before we go, Dennis always likes to give us something else to think about.

I kind of, you know, what we're missing. This has bubbled around for a little bit last week, but you don't think it got as much as it deserves in terms of discussion. You know, to take my eyes off what was happening in the Middle East for a moment, I started to read these U.S. intelligence stories

that began to bubble up three weeks ago, but got a lot noisier last week, Peter, that it was possible that Putin was thinking of deploying a nuclear weapon in space. Yeah. That's a huge security story were it to happen, and it would break the last remaining arms control agreement, and there would be all kinds of really scary security problems that would grow out of it. And Putin, for the record, denied this.

Now, once again, for the record, Putin denied that he was going to invade Ukraine two days before he invaded Ukraine. So you can imagine how much weight we all gave to that. But what really struck me about this story was not the usual security concerns, but the impact on the space economy. And I thought, boy, we really have missed this story. There is now a space economy that this year was worth over $600 billion. The space economy. Isn't that astonishing? We all know about Elon Musk and Starlink and the thousands of satellites that are now in low orbit.

And everything depends on those. So if you use your GPS in the last week, you're dependent on low orbiting space satellite, agriculture, weather, wireless, virtually our whole future of our digital economy. But the insurers have thought about this, and they have put in every insurance policy that any satellite or space vehicle that is injured as a result of radiation. Not covered. Insurance does not cover it.

Well, who thought it was going to happen or there was any chance of it happening because there's an arms treaty that says that cannot happen. But the boys of London thought about it and they put in a specific exemption. So imagine

if you're Elon Musk and you're sending off spotlight after spotlight on launches and you are not covered. Starlink is not covered when you are sending out. Starlink is not covered by insurance.

Should Putin actually go ahead and deploy that nuclear weapon in space, this would be an enormous, enormous economic story. Leave aside all the security issues that would be there. If there was a nuclear explosion in space, it would wipe all these things out? Yes. Yes. And you know, Putin was very, I mean, Putin's denial was itself. You know, he said, I don't need to put a nuclear weapon in space. People who are, people should pay more attention to the kinds of nuclear weapons we are developing that can complicate life on Earth.

That's a kind of clever by half denial, because if there were an explosion, the first things to go would be these low-orbiting satellites. So forget your phone and then when a u.s intelligence person was asked about this a couple of days he said well you know it's important not to exaggerate this story after all we all still have landlines, don't we? We can still communicate. Yeah, not so much anymore. Not so much. We better get Captain Kirk up there. We got to do something.

At least Commander Hatfield, one or the other. That would be a good bet too. But you think about Commander Hatfield, whom we both know, who is, by the way, a leader in the space economy in Canada. Sure. No, I wasn't worrying about this a year ago. It's a good thing. I should give him a call

and get him back on the show he's been on before. And he's such a great guy. Yeah, and he's written a best-selling novel. Yeah, two of them now. Two of them. He's quite something. All right, Janice, we're going to wrap it up for this week. That's been great. And I

look forward to the weekend when we come on here and we talk about the deal that was made, as opposed to the deal we hope is about to be made. You know, Peter, I often say I started my career studying Middle Eastern politics, and I made

a better bet than the people who studied Russia. I mean, this is the one story that never goes away. Never goes away. Never does. No. All right. We will talk again in a week's time. Have a good week. Yeah. Thanks, Janice.

Dr. Janice Stein from the Munk School at the University of Toronto with her weekly assessment of where we are on a couple of the major stories that are kind of haunting our world right now, the Middle East and Russia-Ukraine. I'm throwing a little space story to boot. We've got time for a quick end bit. I was attracted to this one. It was on the CNN wire service a few days ago.

The headline is, A shallow lake in Canada could point to the origin of life on Earth. Now, if that doesn't make you sit up, what would? So let me read a little bit of this story, because it's good. Imagine an entirely barren world. Before you go, you is a volcanic landscape landscape devoid of flora and fauna. Scattered throughout this gray and black expanse are shallow bodies of water. In each of these natural pools brews a precise blend of chemicals

and physical conditions that could serve as the source of life on our planet. Some scientists have theorized the scene might have looked much like this, rather than an ocean setting when life first emerged on Earth roughly four billion years ago. And a study centered around a present-day lake in the Canadian province of British Columbia offers new support for the idea.

This shallow, salty body of water, situated on volcanic rock known as Last Chance Lake, holds clues that carbonate rich lakes in ancient Earth that could have been a cradle of life, according to study co-author David Kapling from the University of Washington. He's a professor of geosciences. The finding, published in the journal

Nature on January 9th of this year could advance scientific understanding of how life began. We were able to look for the specific conditions that people use to synthesize the building blocks of life in nature. We think that we have a pretty promising place for the origin of life. So where is it? Last Chance Lake is no more than a one foot deep. It's located on a volcanic plateau in British Columbia over 1,000 meters, it's 3,280 feet, above sea level. It contains the highest levels of concentrated phosphate ever recorded

in any natural body of water on Earth. There's lots more in this article, and I point you towards it if you're interested in reading it. It's written by Aure Arella Horn Mueller by CNN. It was published on February 17th. So it was only a week ago. And the headline, if you're looking for it, and I'll go online to CNN,

Shallow Lake in Canada Could Point to the Origin of Life on Earth. Well, there you go you've been asking that question and you're not satisfied with the normal answers you get there's an interesting one to look at a one foot deep like don't want to dive in there. All right, that's going to wrap it up for today. Keep in mind your question of the week.

Get your cards and letters in to the Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com before Wednesday at 6 p.m. Eastern time. And the question of the week is this. If you could pick one thing to improve our health care system in Canada, what would that one thing be? One thing. Not a list. One thing. What would that one thing be?

Think about it. Be innovative. Be different. There's some things you know come up regularly on this question. But maybe you have some other answers. I'd love to hear them. Name, location, in before 6 p.m. Wednesday, Eastern Time. Name and location.

Don't forget. All right. Tomorrow, Tuesday, we'll have a program. At this point, I don't know what's going to be in it. Although I'm intrigued, continually intrigued by the drought story that's hitting farmers, especially in Western Canada, and all the various implications from that. So that may be tomorrow's story.

We'll see. All right. That's going to wrap it up for this day. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you again in, well, why don't we say 24 hours.