The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Who Are You Going To Hug First? That's Britain's top story!

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

An opening sentence I've never heard before leads the BBC News last night. Alberta has the highest Covid positivity rate in North America, what happened? And we check out a list of what travellers need to remember about the places they will hopefully soon be travelling to again.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here once again. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge, where today we go inside Alberta's COVID nightmare. Like you, I have been so grateful and so thankful for frontline workers during the COVID crisis. Let's just talk about the frontline workers at SickKids, which is one of the world's best children's hospitals. SickKids doctors also work behind the scenes on incredible breakthroughs to help our kids and generations to come. Listen to their inspiring stories in a new season of the popular podcast called SickKids Versus. Each episode explores a major SickKids

discovery like, well, a virus fightingfighting supermolecule, or a cure for hard-to-treat cancers. Just visit SickKidsFoundation.com slash podcast, or search SickKids versus and spell versus VS. So SickKids VS. You'll be amazed at what you learn. Hello, Peter Mansbridge here once again. And for those of you who might have thought it was too strong a phrase to use, Alberta's nightmare. It is a nightmare. Let's face it, yesterday, more than 1,500 cases, which on the face of it is a drop from the day before, but they only did 14,000

tests or so. Their positivity rate, the positivity rate, the national positivity rate in Canada, and that is the number of positive tests that come back from all the cases tested on that day. The national positivity rate is around four percentage points. Four. In Alberta, it's over 11%. That's a terrible number. And it's one, obviously, that all the public health officials, the government, doctors are trying to come to grips with, are trying to blunt, are trying to bring down. And that's why they had to go that extra mile with restrictive measures in Alberta that the government had resisted taking for a long time. Well, in a moment, we're going to go to Alberta. We're going

to Edmonton to talk to our good friend, Dr. Lenora Saxinger at the University of Alberta about what's happening in Alberta. She's an infectious disease specialist, just like the others that we talk to every week here on the bridge. But before we get there, I want to tell you a little story. It's a short story, but last night I was watching the 10 p.m. national news on the BBC.

So it was five o'clock here in Ontario, but it was the 10 o'clock news, the big newscast on the BBC each evening. And the first item, the lead item, the lead sentence of the lead item, in terms of the introduction from the newscaster, was something I've never heard before, never thought I'd ever hear before, in terms of a lead item, the most important story of the day. All right, there's been good news on the COVID front in Britain for the last little while, and the restrictions are really coming down, which is, you know, a gamble on its own. If everybody tells you the experts, they say be careful opening up,

take things slow. Well, in Britain, it's not exactly slow in terms of the opening up. They're moving ahead quite confidently. And all their experts seem to be confident too that the vaccine program has really worked in Britain. And that's throughout Britain. Yesterday, or on the weekend actually, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, no deaths.

None. Four in Wales. None in England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. So what was this opening sentence? It was kind of, Good evening. We can hug each other again. That was the lead item.

We can hug each other again. I watched live the news conference with Prime Minister Boris Johnson, Bojo, and he was getting questions like who are you going to hug first? This was their spin on the day,

on COVID, hugging. We can hug again. It's been more than a year since we've been allowed to hug. So there you go. That's the difference right now between Britain and Canada. And especially Britain and Alberta. And that's where we're going to move to,

because things are difficult in Alberta, as I've said. The numbers, on the one hand, show some improvement in the number of new cases, but partly due to the fact they didn't test many on the day that these latest numbers were taken. So what is happening in Alberta? How do the rest of us try to come to grips with this? And how is the fight against COVID in Alberta going? Where's the hesitation on vaccines?

Where's the resistance to all measures being taken against COVID? Where is it coming from? How deep is it? And as usual, we tend to focus, we in the media tend to focus on, in this case, the resistance, where in fact the overwhelming numbers in Alberta are very pro-restrictions. Anyway, enough from me on this. Let's bring in Dr. Lenora Saxinger, who from the University of Alberta, infectious disease specialist,

and somebody who we've relied upon greatly in the last year to try and understand the unfolding story in that province. So here's our conversation. So let me put it to you this way. If you were trying to explain what's going on in Alberta to a colleague, say on the of people feeling like the COVID story has receded from the kind of popular experience so much that it's really assumed a back seat. And so people have been, you know, maybe buoyed by the news of vaccination. People have not been seeing as much doom and gloom necessarily. People are no longer gathering around to hear the numbers every day. And so there's been at least a segment of our population who's just kind of wanted to proceed into normalcy, maybe more quickly than is warranted by our situation. I think that there's been a lot of

people who've been doing all the things right all along and they're continuing to do that, but they're getting fatigued. And I think they're getting, you know, really, I think, tired and feeling potentially somewhat underappreciated, you know, looking at, you know, the actions of others as well. And I think we have a much larger proportion of people than I previously realized who really just aren't buying into the whole thing. And that's been getting a lot of publicity. And I think it also kind of drives to some of the behaviors that we see. We also haven't really done a great job actually supporting people to do things like stay home from work sick.

So the combination of all of that has resulted in an incredibly high, like the highest in North America community transmission rates over the last several weeks. And it's really been, I guess, kind of dispiriting, honestly. I bet it is. Let me talk about the middle group that you mentioned, because it's clearly more than a hesitancy. It's a resistance. I mean, is there something in the air in Alberta that is putting this type of issue forward,

the resistance to whether it's masking, whether it's vaccines, whether it's restrictions on lifestyle? What is it? I think that actually, I mean, I don't want to politicize anything, but this is inherently politicized, I think, because if you look at the areas where that type of, you know, resistance is strongest. I think that there's a particular, I guess, brand of, you know, self-reliance, of dislike of government interference, a whole bunch of things, I think, clustered together there. And with that, we've seen this, and I think it's become stronger over time, this, these information silos kind of build up where people um you know are basically in an environment where everyone is saying the same as it turns out erroneous thing

and they're inclined to accept information that agrees with their viewpoint and that's all they're kind of presented with and it becomes a self-perpetuating kind of i don't know um group think that that is i think profoundly damaging because it really does run counter to what i would think the you know current really best possible knowledge base in science would say um but there are people who honestly the only way you can explain people thinking that it's okay to gather um the way that there's been some gatherings and protests um would be if they really do not believe there's a significant risk like they do not believe it and it's very hard thing to even start figuring out in terms of how do you approach this problem because it's it's in a silo you know part of the part of the way information moves around, the primary way, is through the media.

And so I've got to ask how the media's role in that province has been a part or not a part of this issue surrounding misinformation. I mean, you know, the media is not a monolith. Different operations, you know, the media is not a monolith, the different operations, you know, have different values, but is the media part of the problem in dealing with this story? You know, by and large, I think most kind of what we would call traditional media outlets in Alberta have done a pretty good job. I think at least, you know, even if they're kind of offering some balance of viewpoints, they are actually still representing, I think, the majority scientific viewpoint fairly, fairly, I'll just say. I think that there probably are some media outlets that I'm less familiar with because I do not receive them. And if I do receive them, they stress me out too much to actually engage with them. But there definitely have been some smaller outlets that have had, you know, been been part of the building of kind of self affirming

misinformation. I think that social media has actually probably played a larger role than traditional media in building these kind of communities of information divide, if I can say that. And that's also a really hard one to tackle. And then within that, you know, I occasionally get flurries of emails from people. There's like some themes that you can kind of, even from the outside tell are going on. And the themes are, they do not believe the testing is accurate. They do not believe the disease is as severe as it is.

And they believe that we are underusing medications that would offer benefit if you did get disease, which in fact really aren't evidence supported. And those things kind of cluster together. And it's again kind of a situation where you're not really quite sure how to even tackle the problem, because social media is a very siloed environment. And it's hard to know even how to kind of get in to engage, to have the conversations. And the only times I've had success, I think, in working with people who are holding some of these beliefs is usually in a protracted one-on-one conversation, which is not really a very scalable way to be able to go about it. So it's deeply concerning to me because it also will impact how we have vaccine rollout in different parts of Alberta as well, I think. You know, the government, the Alberta government has attempted to reposition itself in terms of what it's saying should happen

here in the province over the last week or 10 days. Is that helping the situation? Has it, has there been a noticeable difference as a result of the new restrictions that are being placed on life in Alberta? You know, I think that the restrictions that have come into place haven't been as visible as similar restrictions were in the past, but they really have started to make a difference um so at least there at least there's a there's a good swath of people who might not not have been paying as much attention who are

now paying more attention who are engaging you know with the restrictions i think in a good way so so there's certainly a group i think that have been captured by those changes. I'm just not sure that the core group that is really resistant to any of this and is really particularly steeped in very different beliefs about what's going on, I'm not sure how much this would impact those groups. So I think it's going to kind of show us where those lines are a little more closely. I mean, there's so many people in Alberta have been excellent the entire time, and they've been, you know, very vocal and actually requesting more restrictions and trying to help promote right activities. But they get much less airtime than the groups who are objecting to them.

And in a way, that's unfortunate, too, because I think that there is value in saying, well, you know, the majority of Albertans actually do want vaccines. The majority of Albertans do believe that this is a significant problem and we need to do something about it because it not as much airspace is given to, to those groups too. So, so I think that, you know, some research would suggest that making sure we don't forget about amplifying that group as well is very important. I think that's a really important point. And it strikes to the whole issue of how the media, how those in my profession spend their time talking about this issue on who they're focusing on while they're doing that discussing.

Let me ask you one final question. And I asked this last week of your colleague, Dr. Lisa Barrett in Halifax. And it was to try and ask her to think back over this last critical period, because they're going through, and the numbers aren't anything like Alberta's, but they're huge for Nova Scotia, as you know, what they're going through right now. But I asked her to try and perhaps remember one conversation or one incident or one moment that she'd had in these last couple of weeks. And so I asked you the same thing.

And it could have been with anybody. It could have been with another doctor. It could have been, you know, with a patient. It could have been with anybody. It could have been with another doctor. It could have been, you know, with a patient. It could have been with any number of different things. But one particular moment that kind of stands out to you that in some ways tells the story of what's going on there right now. Well, you know, the first thing that came to my mind is what I'll go with. I've been, you know, in the time that I can, spending a little bit more time on public social media, just thinking if I can help flood the market with better information, maybe that'll make a difference in some way. And as a result, I occasionally just get messages through social media channels. Now, some of them I regret opening.

And others, I, you you know will try to engage a little bit and i was sent um a link to a video which seemed to be suggesting that the vaccines were a plot to depopulate the world um or something like that like i didn't watch the video i could pretty much tell from the title that that was not something that I was going to necessarily learn a lot from. And so my initial response to that was, you know, I was going to, it was just sent to me without a comment from an individual whose name I recognized from someone I've known in the past. And I thought, well, what was this for? Like, was this person just saying, you know, you're promoting bad information and here's the real information or is it kind of a question? And so after I kind of paused a little bit I said well let's pretend they're asking for my input and so

I started typing a quick response and then I read it and I thought well that sounds like I'm attacking them what if they just really want to know what I think so I rephrased it just by saying um here actually I should find it because it was kind of surprising to me I thought well I don't want to get into the weeds on this you know pseudoscience but I do want to tell them what I think about it in case it makes a difference and what I ended up saying was hard to find. I changed my opening to kind of a softer opening. And I basically said the problem with this kind of information is that it sounds scientific, you know, based on my experience so far and everything I've learned so far.

And that kind of went over, I've done, you know, 13 years of post-secondary education, including, you know, four years of medical school and four years of microbiology and biochemistry and another four years of internal medicine and five years of infectious diseases practice and a further 20 years of actual clinical infectious diseases, which adds up to me being quite old, really. And I said, based on all of that, I just am worried about this kind of information because I think it's misinformation. I think it's actually going to end up being harmful to people who will no longer trust, for example, vaccines, which I think are our way out of this. And I think that they're an amazing miracle of modern science. And so that's what worries me about this kind of video. And the response I got back was really interesting because it was just a little thumbs up. I just got a thumbs up back. And so I was like, oh, maybe they just really wanted my take. And maybe they didn't want me

to get into the science. And maybe all they wanted was for me to say whether I thought that was real or not. And I thought, okay, well, maybe I shall continue just in case it helps to try to dearm my initial reaction, which I think is unhelpful. And where I can just kind of try to meet people where they are with the information. And if that reflects a fair number of people, then I think is unhelpful and where I can just kind of try and meet people where they are with the information. And if, if that reflects a fair number of people, then I think that we have a better outlook than, than, you know, you would have guessed. And so we shouldn't assume people are entrenched. We should continue to be optimistic.

And I think that that kind of interpersonal stuff where possible is actually worth engaging in. Sometimes you can tell it's not going to go anywhere, but it kind of just illustrated to me that there's a whole range of people's reactions to the pandemic. And we should really try not to presume anything about it. And maybe, maybe a whole bunch of like water drops on the stone can actually help break down some of the divisions that we're seeing, because we're all going to have to live with each other through the end of the pandemic and beyond in the post pandemic period.

And we're going to have to figure out how to do that. I think that's a really great lesson, you know, that all of us need to remember. And, you know, every once in a while, you know, we, we all bump into that. We over estimate what the reaction is of somebody who And, you know, every once in a while, you know, we all bump into that. We overestimate what the reaction is of somebody who's, you know, challenged us or questioned us. And we immediately sort of go to 10

on the Richter scale in our reply. And, you know, it's a really good way of interacting as opposed to not interacting at all. At least find out. And clearly in that situation, it worked out for you. I can recall in my days reading The National and I get angry mail, I would immediately become defensive and I'd calm down. I'd think, well, how best to handle this? Either write back or what I did in more than a few cases,

actually found out the person's phone number and called them. And they were so disarmed by the fact that I was on the phone with them that the conversation was, you know, really actually was very constructive. But I applaud you for that. And I think, you know, we can all learn from that lesson. Listen, I know that's a difficult time. And like all of the listeners to this podcast, I know that they're wishing you luck and and Alberta luck as they work their way through this. So thanks again. Thank you. My pleasure to join you today. Dr. Lenora Saxinger in Edmonton. And, you know, another great conversation with one of those who was at the front lines of this battle. In terms, she's an infectious disease specialist. She's called upon for her expertise and her opinion, her thoughts on any number of questions that relate to this pandemic.

And she's been great with us, and she's always afforded us time, never said no, always found a way to have a chat with us. So we appreciate that, and we especially appreciate today's conversation. All right, we're going to take a break. And just like yesterday, we've come out of a difficult topic, and we're going to try and lighten the mood a little bit uh was something i found in the last uh week or so that i think you may find interesting back in a moment you still trying to find ways to get into the world of

crypto we'll look no further bitbuy is canada's number one platform for buying and selling Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitbuy has launched a brand new app and website with a new look, lower fees, and new coins. Bitbuy is your one-stop shop to get involved and super easy to use for beginners. Visit bitbuy.ca or download the Bitbuy app. Enter referral code PODCAST20 to get $20 free when you make your first deposit. All right, Peter Mansbridge back again with The Bridge. On this segment, I'm going to start off with a little story from my past past it kind of fits with the story i'm going to tell you about it was somewhere in the early 2000s i was in scotland not a strange place to find me in uh in the summer or fall months when

golfing is in full swing um i don't want you to get the wrong impression. I'm not a good golfer. In fact, I'm a terrible golfer, but I love to play golf. I love the outdoors. I love the fresh air. I love the exercise. I love all of that. And occasionally, as you golfers know,

the odds are you're probably going to shoot at least one good shot you're going to have one good swing over 18 holes and that good swing will keep you coming back for the next round that's usually what happens in my game anyway we just finished a round me and my buddies at uh turnberry in scotland which is one of the great courses in the world. It's always ranked in the kind of the top 10 in the world. Now it's owned by Donald Trump. So I haven't played there since Trump bought it. But back in the early 2000s, it had different ownership.

It's a great course. It's a course that in the Second World War, the RAF took it over, took the course over and used it as a training base. And some of the fairways were used as runways. And there were a lot of young flyers who went through Turnberry in their training programs. In fact, when I used to play it, there were still areas where the old runways still existed in some form.

There was still pavement in the earth, not on the fairways, but in areas that had been used also as runways and landing zones. Trump took all that history away. It's all gone. He didn't like that. Fine. That's his right, I guess, as an owner. However, we just played 18 holes at Turnberry,

which is an incredible experience. And just like any other golfing day, we'd all hit at some place along that course good shots. So we were celebrating those good moments. And we were sitting in the little bar area at Turnberry, having a drink and a sandwich. And on the other side of the room, there was this group. I don't know.

There might have been eight guys. And they were clearly American. And this is not to knock Americans, but often in situations like that, you can tell who the Americans are. You know, they're kind of at times loud and, you know, kind of bragging so everybody can hear in the room

about what they'd done out on the golf course. Anyway, they were clearly having a good time. And one of them I recognized was Johnny Bench, the Hall of Fame catcher from the Cincinnati Reds, who was, you know, in his post-baseball days. But it appeared to me, I don't know if it was for sure, but it appeared to me that he was part of this group because they'd somehow arranged for him to come along

as kind of the celebrity guest on their little trip to Scotland. And I could tell just looking at Johnny Bench that he was kind of embarrassed by what was going on in this group and how they were kind of taking over the room with their storytelling in such a loud fashion. You know, they weren't obscene or anything, but it got close to that. So why am I telling you this story? I'm telling you this story because I found this great article in BuzzFeed.

Okay, which is an American-based online kind of news service. And the story is written by one of their correspondents, Hannah Lowenthal. And the headline is, non-Americans are sharing the things they wish Americans knew before traveling. And I'm taking notes. That's the headline.

So there are 20 or 30 different things. I'm definitely not going to read them all. But some of them are pretty good. Some of them are funny. But all of them, to some degree, are true. And I think they go beyond just Americans. You know, I've seen Canadians do some odd things overseas as well. But certain assumptions that some of our North American travelers

have about things before they go on trips, because they don't really do any, some of them anyway, don't really do any research. So here are the things. And as I said, I'm not going to read them all. We speak Portuguese in Brazil, not Spanish. That's a lot of people assume that in Brazil they're speaking Spanish. They're not.

They're speaking Portuguese, which goes to their history. Number two, Australian things will actually kill you. It's not a joke. Don't pat the koala. Number three, Bali is not the only island that's worth visiting in Indonesia. And here, you'll love this one. Not everyone who lives in Amsterdam smokes weed. It's mostly foreigners who come here and smoke marijuana.

I'm going to skip a few here. Number seven, in Copenhagen, the Little Mermaid is exactly that. She's tiny, and most tourists are disappointed by her. Now, I didn't know that. I've never been to Copenhagen, so I haven't been a party to looking at the Little Mermaid and seeing whether it's tiny or not, but I'll believe this article in BuzzFeed. Eight, Switzerland is expensive, and you should know that. Oh, yeah, that I know.

And I think anybody who's ever been anywhere near Switzerland knows it's expensive. Here's a classic. Africa is a continent. who's ever been anywhere near Switzerland knows it's expensive. Here's a classic. Africa is a continent. It's made up of 54 different countries. You know, people tend to talk at times about Africa like it's one big country. It's not.

England isn't sunny, so don't complain about the rain in austria always remember the schnitzel is sacred you do not request any changes to the schnitzel you order. That's good to know, right? You don't go, I'll have that schnitzel with lettuce, tomato, onions, a little ketchup on the side, a little mustard. No, that's not what you do. Stop with the locks on our bridges. I like that one too. You go certainly anywhere in Europe, and every bridge you see there's locks on it and they're put there by tourists they're not put there by locals

and it's you know it's a good luck thing supposedly supposedly. Okay, let's skip down a few. I can tell some of you are going, yeah, okay, Peter, tell us something we didn't know. In the UK, most of us don't really care what the royal family's up to. Deaths, weddings, births, we're not really paying attention unless we get a free holiday out of it.

I think there's some truth in that, but it's not all truth. I mean, I've been to a lot of those deaths, weddings, births, and the crowds that gather outside Buckingham Palace or elsewhere, Windsor Castle, you name it, aren't all foreigners. In fact, most are not foreigners. But I get the point you're making. You certainly like the holidays.

Okay. Okay. This is, this I think you should know Paris isn't France and France isn't Paris don't think you know France if you only went to Paris most of the country is really different, that's true and there are lots of

gorgeous places in France and wonderful experiences I know it doesn't apply to every American and it certainly doesn't apply just to Americans and wonderful experiences. I know it doesn't apply to every American, and it certainly doesn't apply just to Americans, but please learn a few words in the language of the country you are visiting, and please understand that not everyone speaks English. That's important to know. In some ways, you know, it's almost like at Turnberry,

that story, the Johnny Bench story I told you, is that some of those guys thought nobody in the room spoke American, so they didn't understand what was being said anyway, so they could say anything, which is what they tried to do. And, you know, it was embarrassing, I think, to them more than anybody else, but it was insulting to some in the room. Don't touch monuments and pieces of art, even if they are frescoes, columns, or statues.

And don't write on them. Boy, you'd think people would understand that. Be careful what you're saying in a public place. This goes back to what I just mentioned. Many people speak English and understand you. Not everyone speaks English, but many do. And they understand what you're saying. Especially when you're kind of knocking them.

It's Edinburgh, not Edinburgh. You don't have to talk that loud, man. Have you been to Iceland yet? I mean, there's been a boom in tourism to Iceland, partly because Iceland Air, I think that's the name of the airline, or Icelandic Air, has very good rates. In fact, it's a lot cheaper to fly to say london if you take the iceland air flight from toronto to reykjavik and then on to london now you have a stop built in and you know it may be worth a couple of days for you to to tour iceland beautiful country anyway here's a little if you

do get to iceland here's something to remember in iceland don't buy bottled water well maybe buy one and then just refill it at literally every bathroom sink you come across the quality will be just as good. In Sweden, take your shoes off before you enter someone's home. Okay, is there a last one here? This list is, I think, 30, 35 long. I don't know. I think we've given it. Okay, how about this? In Italy, what did I do here?

I knocked the volume control down. In Italy, our pizza is way lighter than yours. You can't order just half of it. And pepperoni here doesn't really exist. It's salami picante or something resembling that. All right, little advice for you travelers, because I know we're all getting ready to travel again. As I said, that whole article is directed at Americans, but I think some of us can use that advice as well.

All right, that's it for this day. That's it for Tuesday. Tomorrow, Smoke Mirrors and the Truth, the Radish Farmers here, Bruce Anderson joins us, and I think we'll have something interesting to talk about tomorrow. Thanks for listening today. This has been The Bridge.

I'm Peter Mansbridge. We'll be back again in 24 hours.