The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - Your Turn - A Four Million Person March to Stop The War?

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Lots of questions and comments about the Ukraine war including a unique one about people power and a unique walk INTO Russia.  Never happen?  Perhaps not, but intriguing to think about.

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. It's Thursday, that means your turn, your thoughts, ideas, comments. Let's get right at them, right after this. And hello there, I'm in Toronto for this Thursday episode of The Bridge, and it is your turn, which is basically, you know, the title says it all. This is your turn to say what you have to say about the issues of the day, and the primary issue for most of you this week has been Ukraine, and we focused on it every day on the podcast, with the exception of a little bit on Monday on COVID. You know, I've had a number of people suggest to me this week that, you know, things have

turned on COVID a significant amount to the point where maybe we don't need to do those Monday shows every Monday. Maybe we just need to touch base every once in a while yeah i'm thinking about it we'll see there are letters in here one in particular on covid this week so we'll get to that in a minute but first we're going to start on the on the ukraine reaction from you and um a reminder i mention this every week but it's important especially for a lot of new listeners and we've got tons of new listeners in the in the last few weeks um the reminder is i do read all the mail that comes in. And there's usually somewhere between 100, 150 emails a week that come in. I read them all. But obviously, I don't put them all on the air. We don't have the time

for that, among other things. And of the letters that I do select, I usually just read a couple of sentences or a paragraph from each letter. And some of you love to write like i mean you really love to write and good for you that you do and i hope you don't mind the the portions that i uh that i select from your comments okay let's get started and actually for all you know most of these are first time responders to the bridge, but not the very first letter. It comes from Carolyn Black from Waterloo, and we've heard from her before. But an interesting little story she tells.

In 1924, my grandparents fled Russia, now Ukraine, because of the Russian Revolution. They were in their early 20s. My grandfather escaped just as he was being drafted into the Russian army. In Russia, prior to the revolution and famine, they lived a very prosperous life. If it weren't for humanitarian organizations, specifically the Mennonite Central Committee, and the Canadian government, they likely would have died. They escaped with very few belongings, no money and a debt to Canadian Pacific to pay for their passage to Canada. Through the last couple of weeks as I've been watching people flee Ukraine, I'm very often close to tears as I recall the

many stories I heard from my grandparents about what they lived through during that very difficult time in their lives and the fear sadness and loss that ukrainians today are growing through and when you see what they're going through and you remember what the last century was like at many different times for Ukraine. You know, sometimes you watch these pictures that we're seeing from the brave television crews and the wire services that are in Ukraine telling this story, and if you just took out the color and left it in black and white, you'd think you were looking at the 20s or the 30s or the 40s. Some of these scenes, especially the ones in train stations, are haunting when you think

back to what not only Ukrainians, but so many in Europe went through during those decades. Dan Pru from Kitchener, Ontario, writes, earlier this week, Evan Dyer of the CBC asked an interesting question about Canada's ability to defend itself. He pointed out that in a few years, our country could be sandwiched between two superpowers, one that invades democracies and the other which in a few years could have who you know who as president again, who makes no bones of calling our leader a tyrant while at least one of his supporters thinks the US should be sending troops to Canada to liberate us. Germany recently woke up and will now devote more than 2% of their GDP to the military. Where does Canada stand on this? Well, we're not at 2% where we're supposed to be, and this week the Prime Minister says he's going to try and get us back to 2% or get us to 2%. Do we rely on Article 5 of NATO? Yes, we do. And have 29 other nations come to our rescue should the unthinkable happen?

I'm sure they would. We're a full-fledged member of NATO, and everybody agrees on that basic principle of Article 5. An attack on one is an attack on all. Would you consider discussing this in the future? Well, we've discussed it a few times, and perhaps we'll discuss it some more. But let me just tell you, Dan, we have been sandwiched in between two very powerful nations,

superpowers at one time, each with their own stockpile of nuclear weapons, ever since the end of the Second World War. And it is a constant. And, you know, when we established a dew line in the 50s and 60s, a distant early warning system in Canada's Arctic, it was the Americans who were up there, you know, as much for themselves as they were for us,

but sinking a lot of money into that distant early warning system. And once again, now the same kind of thing has started to happen long before this latest crisis. And by the way, on April 18th, in my documentary called Arctic Blue about the North, we discussed this very issue about defense in the Arctic. So look for that. It'll be on the CBC, an hour-long documentary

on the night of April 18th. I think it's 8 p.m. It's called Arctic Blue. Sarah McDonald writes from Toronto. Want to thank you for your previous book recommendations. She's talking about our shows on Ukraine, and especially the interview with Susan Ormiston, which was on Monday. If you didn't hear it, Susan's in Ukraine covering this story,

and a fabulous interview with her. She's a foreign correspondent for the CBC, and a longtime colleague of mine when I worked at the CBC. Anyway, but Sarah goes on to mention, I wanted to thank you for your previous book recommendation, What I Remember, What I Know, by your friend Larry Audeluk. I just finished it. What a life he's led. You spoke today, this was the end of the Tuesday edition, about knowing our history. And this book

does an exceptional job of telling Larry's history and those of his far north family and friends. There are so many nuances to Indigenous history and reading books like this are so useful in understanding that. I'm glad you went to the trouble of reading the book because it is excellent. What I remember, What I Know, The Life of a High Arctic Exile, Larry Audeluk. Larry lives in Greece Fjord. I saw him, I guess it was in August or September of last year. He's part of this documentary that I'm doing

that's called Arctic Blue. So you can look for Larry in that. But it's also a great book if you want to try and understand the indigenous issue in Canada's high Arctic. Mark Harris from Stratford, Ontario. After listening to today's episode, I can say, all I can say, and this was one of these stories on Ukraine, thank God for Chantal is all I can say.

I really do enjoy the podcast, but Friday's question, should Canada reconsider putting boots on the ground inside Ukraine, scared the actual boots right off me. The question of NATO becoming directly involved, example a no-fly zone, has been floated a number of times in the last few days and I'm utterly perplexed as to why. I want to see Putin go down in defeat for his folly in Ukraine as much as anyone, but this is not in any way like going into Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, or even Syria. It's unlike any military situation in the history of the human race. If he were to so wish, Putin

could release enough nuclear firepower to eradicate civilization many times over. Although the West could hit back, the speed of escalation intended or not would, in just a few hours, take us back to the Stone Age or worse. I'm greatly disturbed by footage of desperate refugees and dead civilians, and there will be many more, but the downside of a confrontation between Russia and NATO would make World War II seem like a pleasant day

at Disneyland. Mark, got to draw a line somewhere. How you draw that line is the question right now. Just on this, you know, I hesitate to mention this. I've been holding this for the last couple of weeks. But it keeps coming up in some of the letters, the whole issue about nuclear. Who has the weapons and how many weapons have they got?

What could the damage be? Here are the basic facts on that question. Russia, by the latest estimate, the BBC did this. In conjunction with various agencies that monitor this. Russia has a total of 5,977 nuclear warheads. Now, a lot of those don't work. About a quarter of them, nothing's been done to update them for years, decades.

But they still have an awful lot of nuclear warheads. NATO, the combined NATO group, so that's the US, France, UK, in terms of their nuclear weaponry, have slightly fewer than that, 5,943. So 34 difference. But hey, one thing Mark says is right. You don't need that many nuclear warheads to destroy everything we cherish on Earth. But the American warheads are up to date. And while Putin made a few headlines by saying he's put his people,

his forces on alert, and that implied some sense of potential nuclear, you can be sure that the Americans were never anything less than on alert and that they are watching through their satellites and whatever different systems, every silo that Russians have that's active or potentially active. There are other countries with nuclear weapons. China has said to have 350, Pakistan, 165. India, 160. Israel, although they don't admit having any, it's generally agreed they have 90. I remember once sitting across from Benjamin Netanyahu in an interview. This would be 10 years ago at least and we knew each other we'd I'd interviewed him a few times both in

Israel and in Canada and I was sitting across from him I believe it was in Toronto and somewhere somehow nuclear came up and I looked at him and I said so how many weapons have you got he looked at me and he says, who said we have any weapons? Maintaining the position that they'd always held, that they have none. Not that they have none, but that they won't admit that they have any. And North Korea has 20. Said to have any. And North Korea has 20. Said to have 20. So,

that's kind of where we are. It's, you know, it's a horrible number. Right? And that's why I've kind of resisted talking about it. But they do exist. Jeff McRae writes from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. As always, I loved good talk last week.

You and Bruce discussed CFB LAR. That's the old Canadian base in what was then West Germany. You talked of the strategic value it had. I wasn't aware of that reason for the base. I was born on the base. My mom's only media outlet in English were British newspapers and there she saw a British spelling of my name and hence named me. Thanks for that. You and your amazing guests have given me great insights and perspective during COVID and then the crazy time of the trucker mess followed now by the war in Ukraine. The two stories illustrated greatly the difference

between fake patriotism and use of the flag to decry a delusional loss of freedoms and real patriotism and fight for actual freedom by Ukrainians. Thanks as always, Jeff McRae, Yarmouth, Nova Scotia. Gord Brown in Hamilton, Ontario. I was wondering your thoughts on the influence of Russian trolls and disinformation on Western politics as an attempt to destabilize the West with the end goal of imperialistic expansion of Russia. Well, I don't think there's much doubt about that.

Listen, all countries in all situations use spin, but the Russians use spin to a degree unseen before in terms of misinformation. And they're using it right now at epic speeds. They had their disinformation stories out right away after they bombed this hospital and child care center, maternity ward, yesterday in Mariupol in the southwest corner of Ukraine. So, you know, it's a given.

And, you know, they've used this information not just for their own purposes, but to try and influence the American election. Who knows? You know, there are some who suggest they were heavily involved in the truckers thing, too. I don't know that. Maybe they were heavily involved in the truckers thing too. I don't know that. Maybe they were. Rose Borths. I'm not sure Rose says where she's writing from.

I really find your conversations with Bruce about Ukraine and Putin very insightful and quite alarming. It occurred to me that if Putin does use the nuclear option, much of the U.S. and Europe will be somewhat protected because of the missile defense program that Canada refused to join. I've done some research, and the basic information I found is that if Putin shoots a bomb at Canada, the U.S. will let it happen and not come to our defense. Rose, I don't know what basic information you do, but that's crazy. I'm sorry, respectfully, that's just not accurate. We're signatories, all of us, including the US and Canada, to Article 5, the NATO agreement,

and they would react immediately. And they are already reacting, as I said earlier, in some of the defensive systems that are being put up in the Canadian Arctic because there's as much for the Americans to worry about in terms of a hit on Canada as Canadians have to worry about. But Rose goes on, this is quite plausible, as Biden has no interest in Canada whatsoever and Trudeau has really poked the bear, so to speak. Really, Rose, I think you got to do a little more reading on that one.

But we can agree on this, your last line. I hope this all ends soon without escalating any further. My mother is 91. She grew up in Germany and said that this reminded her of when World War II started. I'm afraid it does. Don Dufour in Ottawa. Following today's interesting talks with Brian Stewart and Samantha Nutt, that was the Tuesday podcast, great podcast. They've been all good this week. It was your final thought of the day that compelled me to write.

Know your history. As I grew up in Toronto and completed my education there, I was always a geography buff and shied away from history in high school and university thinking it was boring. I'm happy and proud to say that my two young adult kids who are currently studying at the University of Ottawa have been coached throughout their school years by my history buff husband about the importance of learning about world history. As you mentioned today, they have taken time during their high school and university studies to learn about the world, political systems, regimes, and will take

this knowledge forward to enrich whatever career path they follow. They are interesting, inquisitive, and aware young people, and I am so proud of the knowledge foundation they have created for themselves. Thanks, Don. You have every reason to be proud of your kids. That's for sure. Mike Gillis. Mike is writing from... He doesn't say. I'm a Ukrainian-Canadian in my... Well, actually, he does say. I'm a Ukrainian-Canadian in my late 30s. I've had a good life here, and so did my grandparents,

who were both from Ukraine, near the Poland border, near Lviv. They escaped to Belgium at the end of World War II, where my mom was born. And then the whole family was given UN refugee status and passports and came to Viking, Alberta in 1953. I never thought much about being Ukrainian as a kid. Tons of us were in Edmonton, of course, and it never occurred to me to think twice about the food we ate or the accents I heard or the traditions we had or the decorations in our houses. I guess it would have been like asking a fish about water. Now on the video that I see when I can stand to watch the news, I see just thousands and thousands of people who look and sound like me, like family.

They are my family. I wish it didn't take a war for me to realize this. I'm a pretty tough guy most of the time, but I can't read about or watch any of this without crying at this point. It's just too much. I wanted to mention specifically, I'm really glad you were able to get Brian Stewart on. Like I said, we obviously have the same taste in news. And I hope you can pass on that there are people out there who really value his perspective. And if there's any way you could have him on regularly as the war continues, I think that would be a great idea. Well, you'll be happy to know, Mike, that I have talked to Brian about coming on every Tuesday for part of the podcast on Tuesdays to give us his latest sense based on his decades of experience

as a war correspondent. And I credit him with being a military expert as well, because he reads an enormous amount and talks to military experts around the world. So I'm looking forward to talking to Brian again on Tuesday, because this isn't going to be over anytime soon. So thank you, Mike, for that. Here's the last letter on the Ukraine situation. Oliver Meyer wrote, and I got to tell you, Oliver wrote a very long letter.

But he's got an idea. And I'm not going to read the whole letter. I'm just going to read a couple of sentences. But I'll give you a sense of his idea. Your Wednesday talk with Bruce Anderson exposed this. It's not just world leaders and talking heads. It's everyday people speaking about nuclear openly, like it's in the cards either i'm playing the wrong deck of cards or someone forgot to take the jokers out below is the best alternative i see to what is playing out now this is oliver's suggestion listen to it for a minute. Four million people of the world flood into Russia on foot from Latvia, 450 miles to Moscow. Six million Russians and Belarusians join in. That's right, we just walk in, just like that.

Tens of thousands of people every day and 10 million people in Moscow in May. An unarmed, uncountable, messy army of pacifists from around the world just walk in, chanting, we love your children too. Help walk the man out of office. That is the cost of threatening nuclear war, especially on anyone and everyone. What do you think of that? He goes on to detail all kinds of different things about how this march would work and who could be in it, from Greta Thunberg to Sean Penn, Bono, BTS, Angela Merkel. It's, hey, a 10 million person walk.

Look what one person did walking across this country. I don't know. I think it's, we can all place that image in our mind and try to think of what it could mean. All right, lots more to come on other topics, and we'll get to them right after this. And welcome back. Peter Mansbridge here in Toronto on this day. This is the Bridge to Thursday episode. It's your turn.

You're listening on Sirius XM, channel 167, Canada Talks, or you're listening on your favorite podcast platform. And from wherever you are listening, we are happy, as we always tell you, to have you with us. Okay, back to the mail. A few other topics here that have come up over the last couple of weeks and are still on people's minds. Jess Ketchum writes from West Vancouver, British Columbia.

Sorry, there we go. I'm a long-time admirer, but more recently a big fan of the bridge. It is a must-listen to, for me, as the best source of information on public affairs in Canada, from COVID to Ukraine, and all about Canadian politics and public policy. My political junkiness comes from decades of political involvement, primarily at the provincial level in British Columbia. I spent six years as a Chief of Staff to a prominent Cabinet Minister in the Bill Bennett era, and have been on the campaign election cabinets for seven elections.

Having a keen interest in public affairs has been a cornerstone of my life, and I have to say I have never been more concerned about the state of our politics as a country than I am today. I have for some time been concerned about the lack of leadership on demonstration right across the country, but the entire convoy episode was really the exclamation point for me. I'm a proud seventh generation Canadian, which just means I'm luck proud seventh-generation Canadian, which just means I'm luckier than those who have had to immigrate more recently, and in recent years have been fond of saying it's great to be a Canadian when watching the antics of our neighbours.

Now I'm not so sure about just how different we are. I think that delving deeper into that question, likely through Bruce's research and analysis, would be a tremendous interest to your audience. I agree, Jess. I think it's a great idea. I love this little addition. By the way, I had dinner last week with Rick Clough and Cecilia Walters and lunch with Bill Good and his wife, Georgie. They're all pals, and I was really promoting your podcast to them as a daily must-do.

Thanks again for all you're doing. Those four journalists, well, three, and Georgie, Bill's wife, are friends of mine too. Rick and I worked together for decades Cecilia Walters one of the great correspondents and anchors

on the west coast and Bill Good I mean Bill Good if you're from if you're from especially if you're from western Canada the good name

Bill Good Senior and Bill Good Junior. Terrific people. And I'm glad you had a chance to see them, Jess. I've missed them. I haven't seen them for a few years. Just catching. Dave Kellett writes, and Dave is from Lakefield, Ontario. I've always imagined myself to be pretty average,

so I can't imagine I'm the only one feeling the squeeze with the price of fuel. I can't believe the effect it's having on me already, and it hasn't been reflected in the grocery store yet. It's going to get bad, really bad. When our non-discretionary expenses are on the dramatic rise, it's extremely concerning. Consider this, if we're all forced to double the amount we spend to get to work, heat our homes, and feed our families, what's left? I know what we'll all have to do, nothing fun or extra enjoyment, we won't be going for dinner, travel, shopping,

or any non-important purchases. Causing our restaurants, retailers, and businesses to have reduced income in time when costs are getting out of control. The spiraling effect this will have on the economy will get out of control quickly. It's also occurred to me the tax income on fuel has doubled with the price of fuel. The government needs to suspend the taxes, carbon and otherwise, to prevent the crash in the price of fuel, with the price of fuel. The government needs to suspend the taxes, carbon and otherwise, to prevent the crash in the economy. I realize the Prime Minister isn't a fan of fossil fuels, but that's what the world currently runs on, and there will be no way to fund renewable energy if we're plunged into a depression. That is going to be one of the

arguments that plays out in the leadership campaign that's taking place in the conservative party right now a leadership campaign which could take place you know sometime in the next year in the liberal party if uh if the rumors are true or the expectation is true even though he keeps denying it but what else would he say that justin trudeau is contemplating stepping down anyway dave uh you're right this is the constant issue for a lot of people a lot of families a lot of young families the impact that all inflation is having and now the the the whammy of the fuel cost increase i mean my uh you know i i drive back and forth from stratford to toronto when i you know it cost me 25 percent more to fill my tank this time than I did the last time.

Dr. Jane Rusnak from St. Catharines, Ontario. She's been a frequent contributor, especially on the COVID story, and you won't be surprised to learn that that's what she wants to talk about this week. I know we're all sick of hearing about COVID, but it's not going away anytime soon. Sure, hospitalization numbers are stable, but people are still getting COVID daily. The numbers are going up. The relaxing of vaccine and mask mandates are contributing.

People think COVID is over. I was speaking with a member of the clergy yesterday and asked him why he hadn't had the COVID booster. He said he didn't had the COVID booster. He said he didn't need it. It wasn't required for him to go into nursing homes or hospitals to visit his congregation. Only the two doses were. He said if it really was that important, why did they lift the vaccine mandate? He exclaimed that there was talk of a fourth dose, and when was it going to end? He asked if it was really true that we needed boosters. Why wasn't there an advertising campaign to tell people they really needed the booster?

I was shocked at his lack of understanding and carelessness towards people that entrusted him. It's not going to end as long as people remain under-vaccinatedvaccinated as that allows the virus to infect and mutate and better adapt to create new infections i explained that although having two or three covid vaccines might not prevent one from getting covid in most people, it prevents death and serious hospitalization. And you think that would be enough to convince people. But clearly, it isn't. Dean Pelley. Not sure where Dean's from.

But he's a red Tory slash blue grit. So he's one of those Canadians who's kind of in the middle, moving back and forth between conservatives on the left and liberals on the right. And his note is about the Conservative Leadership Convention. Frankly, in my view, the current Conservative Party of Canada is broken and would be better served by Canadians if it split again to its pre-2003 days. At least that would illustrate some honesty that it is not a big tent party anymore.

Well, if it ever really was since the merger, or maybe just maybe, it's time for another political party. A party where more political centrists can feel at home from both sides of the liberal and conservative divide. Now that's a topic that I have not heard discussed anywhere on political talk shows. Have you not been listening to Bruce? Interestingly, it has been the topic of conversation of many of my friends. I'm not sure a further fragmentation of political choice is the answer,

but I would like to see it openly discussed. I think, well, I guess there are a lot of center-leaning Canadians who would support such a party. Just some thoughts from the Canadian Red Tory slash Blue Grit Wilderness. All right, Dean, I think that's going to be discussed a lot through the various leadership issues that are going to unfold in the next year or two. Okay, here's, this is going to be the last letter for this week. And I'm, I want to apologize for starters because I'm not quite sure of how to properly pronounce the writer's name.

She's from Guelph, Ontario. Her name, I think, is Suzanne Diker-Kuhn. Suzanne D-U-I-K-E-R Kuhn Kroon Sounds very Dutch. All right. Here's the letter.

For ten years, I've meant to write and tell you the story of my grandmother. I'm so glad you're here and well enough to still tell it to. In 2002, my bepe, her grandmother, was 98. And although physically a lot less feisty than was once the case, her mental faculties remained sharp. Macular degeneration had made her legally blind for some years, but she still had some peripheral vision, and every night she watched The National

to find out what Peter Mansbridge had to say. Now, lest you think she was one-dimensional, I should mention that she also always watched Wheel of Fortune to see what Vanna was wearing. Love that. Anyway, it was while watching Peter Mansbridge that she suffered a stroke, spent a few days in a coma, and passed away. It's a story that I think flatters both you and her. I've bragged about it many times, and I'm glad to finally share it with you.

I'm actually sorry you two never had a chance to meet, although she'd probably have been awestruck into silence. But having lived through the 20th century, through occupation in the Netherlands and evacuation with eight kids, one an infant, post-war immigration and getting established in Canada. The story she could tell. I asked her once if she remembered anything about Mackenzie King. No, we were too busy trying to live, but I do remember when the Titanic sank. What? But how did you know? You were just six or seven.

Did they have a newspaper in your village or a radio? No, maybe there was a notice at the post office. Or the man on the white horse. And she remembered the horse's name, which I've forgotten, with his loudspeaker. He's the same one who came to tell all the men they had to go to war in 1914. We all thought the war had broken out because we'd celebrated too much in our village in 1912, the anniversary of when Napoleon left. My mind was reeling.

These things I'd only learned about in history class, and my dear old grandmother had lived experience of them at such a different point of view. Isn't that wonderful? You know, I often wish I'd had a chance to know my grandparents more. I only met them a couple of times. We were transitioning from Southeast Asia through England where they were to Canada.

And it was mainly that time. And I was only six or seven years old when I met them. But it was just once or twice. and I don't recall too much. I just got from my cousin, who still lives in England, my grandfather's World War I medals. He sent them to me because he thought, after having read my book and the importance of my dad's medals to me, that it would be, they'd be in better custody if they were with me. And there's three of them.

And my grandfather, if you've read my book, you'll know, fought at Vimy Ridge. And so these having arrived now has made me feel closer to a grandfather I didn't really know. And closer to his story. And that's the wonderful part of Suzanne's letter is she hasn't forgotten her grandmother and she keeps telling those stories. I'm going to wrap it up for this week. I do want to tell you that I received another letter this week that I'm going to read next week, not on the Your Turn edition, but as a separate. It's fairly lengthy, but it's really good. It's about two fellows from Calgary on a road trip to Vancouver and back again. And their observations about their country, or at least that part of the country.

And I want to give it some space. So I'll read that, I don't know, Monday or Tuesday. We'll see how things are going, are developing in terms of the big stories of our time. Okay, so this has been The Bridge for this Thursday, the Your Turn edition. We'll be back tomorrow. Good talk, Chantelle Hebert, Bruce Anderson. Can't wait. It's always great.

Thanks for listening on this day. I'm Peter Mansbridge. Talk to you again in 24 hours.