The Bridge with Peter Mansbridge - YOUR TURN -- Different Views On What To Do About Putin

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

Negotiate or force an unconditional surrender? Some of your views in the weekly mailbag are different when it comes to how to end the situation in Ukraine. And for the first week in two years, no questions or comments about Covid!

And hello there, Peter Mansbridge here. You are just moments away from the latest episode of The Bridge. And the latest episode is your turn. It's Thursday. Your letters, your thoughts, your comments, it is Thursday in Toronto today. And you know, well, can we get on with spring? Like, we got teased a couple of weeks ago. Looked good. And then there's been, at least in parts of southern Ontario, there's been snow, it's been cold, it's been yucky. And all that news of a new wave coming in in terms of COVID. It's just not been much fun. Can we get on with it, please?

All right, it's Thursday, and that means, as I said, it's your turn and your opportunity to weigh in on some of the topics we've been discussing of late. And of late, we've been discussing a lot about Ukraine and about the situation there, and we've had some just terrific guests on. And we've got more coming, which I'll tell you about as we move on here. But let's get to your letters and your emails that are coming to the Mansbridge podcast at gmail.com. And, you know, what I appreciate are the hard-hitting, come on, Mansbridge, let's really get at it. You know, you're missing the point.

Let's talk straight. Some of these letters, like right off the bat, we've got Carol Edwards here, and her letter from Ancaster, Ontario. Excellent content this week on Ukraine. Outstanding guests and very informative. I appreciated getting a better understanding of the historical context as well as the on-the-ground situation. Utterly heartbreaking.

Well, it sure is. But Carol, I didn't say enough in that. She wanted to write another email. Outstanding Monday show with the retired Army General. Blunt, but exactly the straight talk Canadians need to hear in terms of what's really at stake here or could be. And then she followed up again with another email a couple of days later. Congrats on 3 million downloads. I too love your conversations with Brian. That's Brian Stewart on Tuesdays. It's great to hear the debates between you two.

So informative. Honestly, cannot even believe these conversations are real life, but sadly they are. Well, thank you, Carol. Those are three great little emails. And nice, short, and concise. From Ancaster, Ontario. But they're not all like that, so let's move on. Marge Andre from Richmond Hill, Ontario.

I'm drawn to listen to your talks regarding this Ukraine-Russian conflict, or whatever we shall call it, which has been a point of issue for some people right call it what it is the russian invasion of ukraine call it what it is it's a war call it what it is it's a conflict i mean people have different views on these things and words matter anyway back to marge's point i had been wishing for so long for something other than COVID to be headlining the news, but I did not want to be talking about war and the possible threat of nuclear attacks. I listened to your podcast to find answers as to why this is happening in the world. The world's too small. We all seem to know someone who has friends or relatives in Ukraine. I've heard from friends that even in the adjacent countries, people are traumatized. These firsthand details make it worse. I imagine being there in Ukraine, I have five adult sons. They would all be fighting. Would I have fled

the country and left them behind? I'm also wondering about the COVID situation, both in Russia and Ukraine. is there any testing for COVID for those fleeing to other countries can you talk about this you know we watch the pictures right you see the people fleeing and the different refugee situations that are at the borders I don't see testing I rarely see masks, sometimes. So I imagine there is, especially at this time, because there's been this new wave that's been passing through Europe, started in Eastern Europe, moved through Western Europe. It's been in the United Kingdom,

and it seems to be now moving into North America. Anyway, March concludes by saying, let's hope things change, and you're just talking about the provincial election. There's a number of them. And maybe Ottawa's Tulip Festival. Wouldn't that be nice? Good morning.

This is The Bridge, beginning a week-long look at Ottawa's Tulip Festival. Do you think we're ever going to see that kind of a day? That kind of a week? Even that kind of a minute? However, if you've ever been to Ottawa in the spring and seen the Tulip Festival, man, it's worth seeing. And you know how it started, right? It started by the Dutch royal family thanking Canada by sending tulip bulbs.

Because the Dutch royal family, at least part of it, spent its time during the war, the Second World War, in Canada. When the Nazis took over the Netherlands, they fled, lived in Canada. When the Nazis took over the Netherlands, they fled, lived in Ottawa, and then moved back. And they've never forgotten Canada, still don't today. And not just Ottawa.

In Stratford, Ontario, one of the army groups that liberated the Netherlands came from Perth County in and around Stratford. And there's a monument there right by the pool, the community pool in Stratford that was put there by the Dutch government. And it was just, I don't know, a couple of years ago that a member of the royal family came to rededicate that monument.

So the Tulip Festival, whether it's in Ottawa or a small version of it in Stratford or many of the other places in the country, it's, you know, the great signal of spring and summer. And we look forward to it. And it's not going to be long. I mean, we're going through a patch of bad weather right now. But within another month, those tulips will be shooting up through the ground in Ottawa.

Michael Tettelbaum from Toronto. Still on Ukraine. My visceral reaction throughout this war, this horrific war, is the same as yours. Putin is a mobster, kleptocrat, murderer, and war criminal.

He started this needless war, and he should not benefit one iota from doing so the gut and the heart say nothing but his unconditional surrender should be the end result that said i think we have to be realistic and recognize we have to compromise on what we would like to see for the following reasons number A number of people wrote this, by the way. You know, the same kind of feeling. Anyway, Michael writes it, he has three things. One, unlike World War II, we are confronting an enemy with nuclear weapons,

and based on, in particular, his recent actions, he's totally not predictable and is potentially erratic. And this means we can't push for something that, while emotionally satisfying, could be catastrophic. Two, while we could justifiably take that position if Putin continues with his unwarranted aggression, it remains to be seen if he will. How long are you going to give him to figure that out? There is some suggestion after today's negotiation that he may be willing to take an off-ramp,

given how events have unfolded, namely his force's failures and at least a military stalemate, and subject to verifying every step and not taking him at his word because his word is worthless. This has to be explored. It's being explored. his word is worthless, this has to be explored. It's being explored.

His word is worthless. And he doesn't follow through on his promises or his suggestions of what he's about to do. Three, most importantly, this barbaric war is wreaking havoc on Ukraine. It's not fair to take the position that there must be unconditional surrender while more terrible death, injury, and destruction are being suffered by ukraine alone it's like we're saying they're ready that we're ready to fight putin to the last ukrainian in the final analysis i think ukraine has to decide what it's prepared to do and of course that will be the

final analysis you're right about that, Michael. When I mentioned unconditional surrender the other day, I mentioned it in regards to what happened in the Second World War. At the end, when the Allies, led by Churchill and Eisenhower at that point, in terms of the Supreme Allied Commander, said they would accept nothing less than unconditional surrender. They didn't want any benefit at all going to the Nazis. And I think there will be some people who will make that same argument about Putin. How can you enter a negotiation where you know that he's going to end up with something?

Why should he get anything? In terms of what he's done? But I appreciate that's your view, Michael, and you're not alone. Others said the same thing and challenged me on the use of the unconditional surrender example, mainly for the reason that they didn't have nukes then. They have nukes now. We're going to talk about this more next week, the Monday program,

with Canada's ambassador to the UN, Bob Ray. Brian and I talked about this the other day, and so I got hold of the ambassador, and he's good enough to agree to be on the program next week. And we're going to talk about this whole idea of how do you negotiate with a war criminal. That, as I said, is Monday's show. All right, here's one from ashmore bradley in mississauga perhaps it's my narrow choice of news and pod feeds but i have to hear i have yet to hear a discussion on air or on pod that addresses tough questions such as how and what can canada actually do to influence the de-escalation of

this conflict what is the path towards peace in Ukraine and how can Canada participate and perhaps even leverage our global brand as a multinational peacekeeping nation? How can we, the West, collectively help rebuild Ukraine by supplying what will inevitably be millions, if not billions, of taxpayer money to a country that is ranked second in corruption across all of Europe. You guessed it, Russia is ranked number one. The world is not coming to an end and this invasion will come to a conclusion when it does what is our very first step towards rebuilding relations with Russia and her 145 million citizens, so we can all somehow move forward together as a human race?

Brad, those are all good questions. I guess it's Bradley Ashmore, not Ashmore Bradley. But Brad, those are all good questions, and they'll be some of the questions that I should be throwing at Bob Ray for the Monday show, right? So I'll keep your note on hand. Don Dufour writes, I was happy to hear you're having Bob Ray on next week to talk about war negotiations.

During this whole crazy war with all of the experts I've been watching on the news, including General Leslie from the Monday program, I've met some very smart and interesting people with diverse perspectives and I've learned a great deal about the history of that global region. However, I have always admired Bob Ray since I was a young NDP voter living in the Toronto Burbs many years ago, now living in Ottawa. He's thoughtful, empathetic, extremely knowledgeable, articulate, and on and on. And if I could vote for any member from the Canadian scene to become involved in negotiations to end Putin's war, Ray would get my vote. Send him over there. He'd contribute greatly

to sorting out the mess. I'll tell him, Don, that you suggest he should pack his bags and head to Ukraine. Dylan Matheson from Courtney, B.C. Am I the only one who finds it very difficult

to get that upset about Ukraine? My government isn't the Russian government. I don't have anything to do with Russia. My country is not an ally of Russia. My government is the Canadian government, in theory at least. I have to say what goes on within my own country and its foreign policy.

Perhaps we should be talking more about what our sanctions are doing to the Afghan people. Our closest ally has also frozen Afghan government assets and seized half of those funds to give to the victims of 9-11, while the people are going to starve. As if the Afghan people today have anything to do with those attacks. 200,000 children in Afghanistan are on the brink of starvation. What about our closest ally, the United States? The Biden administration is currently backing the war in Yemen. With one phone call, President Biden could end that war, which is the world's worst humanitarian crisis. It's easy to criticize an evil country

like Russia committing atrocities. What about the crimes our country and allies are committing? What about 40 years of continual bombing of the Middle East? What about the Obama-Trump drone program that killed 90% civilians? Also, one thing I noticed left out of your show as to why China is supporting Russiaussia's invasion china also has a territory it doesn't control but considers part of china at some point in the future china is almost certain to cross the south china sea and take back taiwan by force at that time they may may need Russian support economically.

Actually, we did touch base on the China story last week, and I signaled to where you could hear the full discussion with the former Australian Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, who's an expert on China and is the president of the Asia Society. So I point you once again in that direction. But I hear all the points you're making, and they're good ones for all of us to be considering. I know you're not saying I don't care about Ukraine. You do, but you are saying that there are a lot of other things we should be just as vigorously thinking about and discussing than just that one.

And understand our involvement in other situations as well. So I hear you, Dylan. James Profiti. James writes to us from Schweinfurt, germany part of the worldwide audience of the bridge downloading on your favorite podcast platform one of the three million downloads is james graffiti i'm a canadian student living abroad in schinfurt, Germany, for an internship through my university's co-op program. I started listening to The Bridge mostly for good talk during the election season last fall, but now your shows have become part of my daily media diet to help keep up with the news from home. That's great to hear. These days, I've been getting many worried phone calls from home,

Etobicoke and Windsor, asking me to proceed with caution with regards to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. From these shores, however, it feels as though life is proceeding as normal. I've been trying to follow the Europeans' lead and to keep my fears of a wider conflict in check. I do wonder, however, if this unconcerned attitude will mean that the EU's citizens will be caught off guard in the event that things grow larger. It's difficult to say if this is a general après-moi de luge or if people here have deluded themselves into a false sense of security. Looking at how many aid workers have traveled over land in trucks

and trains to get to the Polish-Ukrainian border from across Western Europe, it's really commendable. But it's also a much shorter and easier trip than one might think. This is also something that seemed to be getting lost in the discussion comparing the scale of the humanitarian response for Ukraine to those for the Syrian and Afghan refugees, it's only about 1150 clicks, or about the distance between Windsor and Quebec City in Canadian terms, from where I'm sitting in central Germany to Lviv. Knowing these hard numbers in terms we can relate to makes the calculation more clear that this is a truly present threat, even if it's hard to say what ordinary people such as myself can do about it.

And finally, one from our good friend David Oliver in Oak Bay, BC. There seems to be a lot of loose talk about NATO getting involved in the Ukraine conflict. NATO is a defensive alliance which has no NATO getting involved in the Ukraine conflict. NATO is a defensive alliance which has no business getting involved in conflicts which are not a direct threat against an alliance member or members. I know it seems arcane to make these fine distinctions, but in international relations you have to be careful about the signals you send. In retrospect, NATO involvement in the Balkans and Afghanistan have served to allow people like Vladimir Putin to claim that it does not restrict itself to its own defense

and constitutes a danger to them. From the Russian point of view, the broadening of NATO to include former Warsaw Pact members is threatening, and it seems likely that the request by Ukraine to join NATO and the talks about it over the last couple of years may have precipitated the invasion. This is not to justify in any way the invasion of Ukraine or to suggest it's anybody's fault but Putin's, but to point out that in international relations we must be aware of how things look from the other side. If Ukraine had been talking about the neutrality as suggested by your correspondent a few weeks ago, who knows, the argument for invasion or denazification would be harder to make.

All good points, David. And absolutely worth putting into the mix. Okay, we're going to move off the war. We're going to move into other stuff. Before we do that, let's take a short break. and welcome back peter mansbridge here in toronto you're listening to uh the bridge the thursday your turn edition right here on sirius xm channel 167 canada talks or on your favorite podcast platform getting back to to your turn now, your letters, your thoughts that you sent in during this week.

And we're moving on now, away from the war and to other areas. You may have heard yesterday we spent some time talking about Rachel Thomas and her comments. This was on Smoke Mirrors and the Truth with Bruce Anderson. Rachel Thomas's comments is she's a conservative MP in the House of Commons where she called Trudeau a dictator. Said that he was fulfilled the dictionary definition of a dictator. Anyway, there were a few letters right away on that michael brisson writes thomas kenny trump you and bruce kept returning today to the issue of this week and if these times

how to handle the media appeal of lies s, and crass that is now exploited with increasing success by Trump and all his imitators. A start would be to force a stop to the constant shouted heckling from the conservative backbenches, which at each loud return, right after each timid schoolmarmish admonition from the Speaker, erodes the small amount of dignity and spirit of honor that still remains in our democratic situation how could that stoppage happen until it does it stands to the satisfaction of the crass conservative backbench sassers as an ignored putin style what are you going to do about it challenge to our national civility michael brisson michael doesn't say where he's writing from but that's okay challenge to our national civility. Michael Brisson.

Michael doesn't say where he's writing from, but that's okay. I mean, that's all true, but, you know, there are a number of letters here that blame it all on the conservatives. Trust me, this is part of our system, and it seems to have, you know, increasingly got out of hand in some of the things that are said but you know excuse me but i can remember when the conservatives were in government and that some of the liberal backbenchers shouting insulting from the other side of the house as well not to the degree we're starting to see it now and some of the things that are being said but it didn't suddenly happen with conservatives.

Dino Manorino. I hear you compare what's said by both of the two major political parties in Canada as if they use the same kind of language in vitriol. That was interesting after I just made those other comments. Perhaps I'm very biased, probably I am, but I only hear conservatives mostly label other politicians in extreme terms. Examples of a few favorite labels, unethical, dishonest, corrupt, illegitimate, undemocratic, circumventing democracy, and just yesterday's beauty, dictator.

These terms, if used in any other context outside of politics, would result in a libel suit or a fist fight. That may be true, but they're outside the bounds of those restrictions when they're inside the House of Commons. Dino says, I'm sorry, and with all due respect, but you must call it out. There aren't good people on both sides of this trend. Conservatives use these labels every day, crossing not only the line of decorum, but often giving voice to legitimizing insurrectionist sentiments.

I'll go this far in agreeing with you, Dino. It's worse now than it's ever been. It didn't start with this Parliament. Glenn McLaughlin from Regina, once again talking about the Rachel Thomas thing. There's an MP from Lethbridge, Alberta, right? Right next door to where Glenn is. In case this MP hasn't noticed, the nation is facing a number of challenges. We're on the brink of getting dragged into war. We're still dealing with a pandemic. We're attempting to meet an ambitious green target by 2030, and we still face the challenge of meaningful reconciliation with our First Nations,

just to name a few. We need strong leadership in government and an opposition that is conscientious in holding the government to account. What we don't need is the distraction of a race to the bottom with this kind of grandstanding demagogue. Let's hope she's not a model for the direction the Conservative Party chooses to go in the upcoming leadership contest.

Well, I guess we're going to have to wait to find out on that. Pam Asbury from Kamloops, British Columbia. Pam's got a question here. A few years back, I watched a journalism masterclass taught by Bob Woodward, the Washington Post. In his class, he stated that he abstained from voting to remain objective in his coverage of American politics. So the question is, in abstaining from voting in federal elections, is that common amongst journalists if you're covering politics?

Is this more of a tradition in the U.S.? I have friends who are journalists, and they suggested it might be more old school, as they vote. Bruce Anderson certainly makes it known of his personal political leanings. Bruce isn't a journalist, okay? And that's deliberate.

That's one of the reasons he's on the program, because we want to mix. We don't just want journalists. Bruce is an analyst. He's a researcher. He's a pollster. And he's been an active participant in Canadian politics in at least two parties. Anyway, if you do vote, do you think it affects journalistic objectivity or leaves you open to attack from those in the crosshairs,

should they be across the floor from your personal political leanings um i'm not going to speak for everybody else because i think you know some people some journalists vote some journalists don't vote they don't have to tell us one way or the other i'll tell you my i probably uh during my time in journalism, the 50 years I was in journalism, I didn't vote more times than I did vote. And often when I didn't vote, it was because there was some huge overarching issue that was facing the electorate. And I felt a little like Bob Woodward felt. overarching issue that was facing the electorate.

And I felt, you know, a little like Bob Woodward felt. And so I abstained in those elections. But there were other elections where I did vote, you know, at municipal, provincial, or federal levels. And I can tell you that at different times in my life, I've voted for all three of the kind of mainstream national parties at different times. Barb Fawcett from Algonquin Highlands. That's in the county of Halliburton.

Congratulations on reaching 3 million downloads. Well, I wasn't one of your very first listeners, thanks to my friend Wendy Bateman, who told me about the podcast soon after it began. It quickly became an important part of my daily news and information gathering. In these times of political polarization, it's difficult to sort through truth and outright lies. Your podcast gives a balanced view of national and international issues in a fair manner. That's what we try to do. Your guests from the medical world of COVID have been extremely helpful in guiding us through the pandemic. Currently,

Brian Stewart's insight on the Ukrainian situation brings an unbiased perspective. And probably like many other listeners, my absolute favorite podcast occurs on Friday when Chantelle and Bruce discuss with you the variety of, excuse me, mainly Canadian political issues. Really, there's never been a day when i said i'm not interested in that topic a heartfelt thanks from this faithful listener in rural ontario for sharing your expertise knowledge and the many worldwide contacts you've made in your distinguished career blah blah blah i look forward to many more episodes in years to come well i look forward to bringing them and uh years to come. Well, I look forward to bringing them.

And thank you for those kind words, Barb. Really appreciate it. We try to fulfill what you feel we already have, but we try to do that every day. Some days are hits and some days, well, they're kind of misses, but we try. Jordan Sampson from Toronto. I feel the voice of Canadians is not properly distributed in our House of Commons, which I believe in turn is fueling the rage of the furthest right in our country. Without reform, I fear this will continue to get worse in the coming years. I fear the only way this will improve is if seats are awarded on a popularity basis,

especially in large city centers, instead of small individual ridings. Then, as a right-leaning voter in the city, your vote may actually mean something. Well, you know the argument over electoral reform. It's been going on in this country for decades now. And every time we think there's about to be a change, it doesn't happen. It doesn't look like it's going to be happening anytime soon, although there seems to be some kind of half-hearted commitment

to looking at it once again. be happening anytime soon, although there seems to be some kind of half-hearted commitment to looking at it once again. We'll see, Jordan. You're not alone in that feeling. That's for sure. Bill Archibald writes from Ennismore, Ontario. You mentioned a British general's Boer War press briefing, and his comment may not be exactly as you stated i will never lie to you but may not tell you the truth it was i'll never lie to you but don't assume that means i'm telling you the truth this reminds me of a similar situation in an old movie when a reporter's questioned about a statement they made about a questionable situation as being the truth, the reporter replied, no, but it is accurate. I believe both could be used in situations involving tricky subjects,

especially in the political arena. And they are. Tom Cochon. We talked yesterday, Bruce and I talked on Smoke Marys and the Truth about this new Harris poll that shows Trump beating Biden if they were against each other again in 2024. So Tom writes, he writes from Whitby, Ontario, Trump beating Biden is not a referendum on Trump. It's a referendum on Biden and the leadership of the Democrat Party who saved his campaign during the 2020 primaries. Any Democrat would have beaten Trump, but the leadership wanted Biden.

I don't agree with that. I don't think any Democrat would have beaten Trump. Nevertheless, as Tom says, now he's showing that they were wrong. They should have found a dynamic leader and speaker who can get fresh ideas across to everyone. Biden should have stayed retired. The poll you mentioned only gives two options, Trump versus Biden. Is there a poll that shows Trump versus non-Trumpers, Liz Cheney, or Governor Sununu of New Hampshire, or Hogan, Governor Hogan,

that shows what Republicans think of Trump? I think that poll may be different. I haven't seen any like that, Tom, but I'll keep an eye out to see if there are. Julie Smith Allen writes from Lethbridge, Alberta. The General Leslie episode was terrifying. More and more, I feel like I'm living an end-of-the-world movie plot. Margaret Macmillan was brilliant, as always. I'd love to hear from her often. Thanks for sharing your Scottish electrical supplier suggestions for saving power. My dad, Norman Smith, was born in Aberdeenshire and came to Canada at age five with his family. He swore

by porridge. Remember, porridge was what my electrical company in Scotland was saying. You want to lower your bills, eat porridge. My father swore by porridge because it sticks to your ribs. I eat it nearly every morning and swear by it too. Julie Smith Allen is from Lethbridge, Alberta. That's where Rachel Thomas is from too. She's the MP for Lethbridge, Alberta. That's where Rachel Thomas is from, too. She's the MP for Lethbridge, Alberta. And a great friend of mine, well, more somebody who I had total admiration for,

but knew fairly well during my time on Parliament Hill and later in other events when I'd go to Ottawa was the former Senator and former A.D.U. Pierre Trudeau, Joyce Fairburn. And Joyce was from Lethbridge, Alberta. And Joyce just passed away this week. And I'm very sad to hear that. She was a terrific person, well-liked, well-respected just passed away this week. Very sad to hear that. She was a terrific person,

well-liked, well-respected by people on all sides of the political spectrum in Ottawa, whether they were other political parties or the media. Joyce Fairbairn was a very special person. Always wore red. You always knew where Joyce was in the picture because she was always wearing red.

Our final letter this week comes from Anne-Marie Klein in Toronto. And she picked up too on this thing about the electrical company in Scotland that had sent me some advice about rising bills because I live in a small place in Scotland. Going over there next week, actually.

We'll do a few shows from Scotland once again. And part of their advice was, eat porridge and use merino wool. So anyway, Anne-Marie Klein writes, I'm a daily listener to your podcast, and like you, I spend some time in Scotland twice a year, if we can manage, and am heading back at the end of April for a month-long stay. I heard your comments about merino wool, and just wanted to say that as a frequent hiker and wanderer from the glens, hills, woods, and mountains of the highlands to the southern uplands, merino wool is the way to go for socks and base layers like long-sleeved t-shirts. Your feet stay warm, avoid moisture and bacteria, and it's quick-drying if you're trying to pack minimally. They blend, the blend is not itchy

and is my preferred choice for an active vacation in the unpredictable climate of the country we both love. I'm packing away

the merino mole, you can be sure of that. Thanks Anne-Marie. All right, that's going to wrap it up for this week, for this

Thursday episode of The Bridge, your turn. It's always great to hear from you. I really appreciate it. And I love to hear what's on your mind. It's not always flattering to some of the comments you've heard on this program, but it is flattering to the program itself that you enlisted as part of your week's knowledge base that allows you to think about the stories that are happening around you

and weigh in when you have something to say. I love it. Tomorrow, it's good talk. Chantelle Hebert and Bruce Anderson will be here. And, you know, Fridays, we always find something to talk about. And once again, a flag Mondays program. Canada's ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Bray, who has won all kinds of nice comments for the,

and respectful comments for the speeches he's been giving at the UN, especially on the Ukraine situation in the past four or five weeks. So Ambassador Wray will be with us, and we'll have a good chat about exactly that. That's it. That's it. I'm Peter Mansbridge. This has been The Bridge. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you again

in 24 hours.